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Passions in Poetry

Gene Therapy --> Cloning

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Christopher
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0 posted 04-09-2004 05:57 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher


Hearing more and more about this lately, I see a natural progression from gene therapy to cloning. This brings on the original question of "should we clone humans"?

Brad
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1 posted 04-09-2004 06:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Why not? The only danger I see is that we still don't know what the process actually does. We shouldn't be reckless.

Local Rebel
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2 posted 04-09-2004 06:49 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I assume by cloning you're talking about the implanting of a complete chromosome set onto an ovum and not merely twinning a zygote.

There are some real questions right now about if it will even be possible with humans.

But, I think there are some applications that should be pursued post-haste -- namely -- the cloning of organs for transplanting.  I'm not talking about cloning a whole body and hanging it in a meat locker and cutting out organs -- I mean growing hearts, livers, kidneys, etc. in a laboratory environment.

Cloning for reproductive purposes is a sticky issue.  There are some people that it would be just WRONG to clone.  

Midnitesun
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3 posted 04-09-2004 09:02 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

nope
not now, not ever
not unless you clone me since I am the perfect speciwoman
that would be so scary....a clone of myself
Aenimal
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4 posted 04-10-2004 12:53 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Cells yes, full clones no, it's bad enough certain humans foul the earth through one lifetime is it neccesary to have to suffer them a second, third time? The only exception I'm willing to make is the cloning of supermodel Alessandra Ambrosio or Angelina Jolie. Purely for scientific purposes of course. mmmmmmmm anatomy
Local Rebel
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5 posted 04-10-2004 01:07 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What if we could clone Stephen Hawking?

Einstein?

Mother Teresa?

Ghandi?

I've heard medical arguments against implanting chromosomes -- such as the copying errors that could occur due to the age of the chromosomes -- this was manifest to an extent in Dolly the sheep clone.

But, assuming the medical part of it was fixed and there were not health risks for the clone -- I haven't actually heard an argument against it other than just ick factors.  

I don't comprehend the revulsion.
Aenimal
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6 posted 04-10-2004 03:07 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

That's assuming the clone would have the same vision, drive and gifts as it's predecessor. From infancy to adulthood, the clone would have a different set of life experiences and would therefore develop differently.

Consider that Stephen Hawking's clone might not necessarily develop ALS or that it's onset might come earlier or later than the original. Under these new circumstances there are no guarantees the cloned Stephen Hawking would have the same determination and drive to continue with study and research in his poor state of health.

And that's assuming he'd even develop and interest in science in the first place. There's nothing stopping the clone from being content staying at home and watching Jerry Springer. Better cell cloning in order to prolong the real deal then create a clone.

'Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota
monax materiam possit materiari?'
~Gluteus Maximus
Skyfyre
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Sitting in Michael's Lap


7 posted 04-10-2004 05:35 AM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

Michael and I agree that cloning should not be permitted as the world could not handle two Christophers.

'Nuff said.
Essorant
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8 posted 04-10-2004 02:00 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

There is no earnest reason or need to clone a human.   Therefore, NO.  
Ron
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9 posted 04-10-2004 03:16 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Who gets hurt?
Essorant
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10 posted 04-10-2004 03:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Who gets healed?
Local Rebel
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11 posted 04-10-2004 03:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I don't think I assumed anything Raph.  But you're making some of the right observations.  

Is there any reason what we already know about naturally occuring clones (identical twins) isn't going to apply to medically developed clones?  Or, the more familiar dynamic of just having any offspring?

We know that identical twins raised apart often develop many of the same interests and talents.  Those raised together often pursue seperate paths -- perhaps in search of making a unique identity.  Same goes for children of famous/talented/brilliant people -- on the other hand -- there are those who follow in their progenitors footsteps and excel.

Ron -- that's the question I've always asked -- and I can think of a few issues -- but I'm not going to say they categorically suggest cloning shouldn't be allowed.

The first isn't a who -- but a what -- diversity.  That may or may not be a bad thing.

The second is the clone itself -- assuming there aren't medical risks -- what are the developmental/psychological risks of knowing everything your genome has accomplished in the past?  What kind of pressure does that apply?  What kind of expectations?

Third -- we already have a system that favors empire building -- what does the prospect of cloning do to the opportunities for everyone else?

To an extent medical science already injects itself into several of these areas -- cloning would push that envelope a little further.
Local Rebel
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12 posted 04-10-2004 03:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ess -- persons with spinal injuries, alzheimers, cancer, parkinsons... um the list is long.
Essorant
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13 posted 04-10-2004 04:03 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Local Rebel

I'm not sure what you mean.  How may people with those problems you mention benefit from the cloning of humans?
Local Rebel
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14 posted 04-10-2004 04:34 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Potentially all of them, if you're talking about therapeutic cloning. What do you mean by 'healed' otherwise?
Essorant
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15 posted 04-10-2004 05:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I meant a complete human.

Scientists may clone the right human cells, can't they?   Why then do they need clone whole human beings?
Brad
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16 posted 04-10-2004 07:40 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I know this isn't on topic, but I wonder if this topic distracts from a more pressing concern. There is some evidence that we are going through a mass extinction right now. Perhaps our focus shouldn't be on ourselves, but on developing a kind of genetic ark whereby we can save as many species as possible through cloning.

I don't know, human cloning may simply be on offshoot of such a project, but it seems a relatively small price to pay for another tool to save the current eco-system, another tool that helps us help ourselves.

Aenimal
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17 posted 04-11-2004 02:41 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Local you read me wrong, I wasn't claiming that it was your assumption, just how I began the sentence. Perhaps I should have used "If we assume," or something of that nature. All apologies, it was a matter of semantics, not accusation.
berengar
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18 posted 04-11-2004 02:50 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

One aspect of human cloning that needs more thought is the legal one.  The notion of burden of proof - particularly as it applies to alibis in criminal trials - may have to be reconsidered one day.
Essorant
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19 posted 04-11-2004 05:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

People can't tell for sure if "part" is not missing when an organism is cloned.  It may look complete but something more inward and complex may not be there.  If something is missing now, something more may be miss then, and something more even later possibly from any kind of, even any most minor, inadequacy.  I don't think we should put evolution into that possible danger.  
Humans should influence Mother Nature, not try to take over her offices.   If we may make better changes to harmonize more with nature, then nature shall harmonize more with us.  But as long as we continue to try to engineer and manipulate so much, and put so much force upon everything, the native manners of things shall be lost and replaced, with  manmade artificialnesses, and unable to do well on their own, for always needing extraordinary force .

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-11-2004 06:35 PM).]

Brad
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20 posted 04-11-2004 06:50 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
People can't tell for sure if "part" is not missing when an organism is cloned.  It may look complete but something more inward and complex may not be there.


And people will always ask this question because it can never be answered.  
Ron
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21 posted 04-11-2004 07:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Yep. And the first child you have, even after you've counted the fingers and all the toes, will still raise those questions.
gemjop
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22 posted 04-11-2004 08:15 PM       View Profile for gemjop   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for gemjop

It's a scary thing, with the growing desire for 'perfection' especially in recent times with growing amounts of plastic surgery going on. People wouldn't neccessarily clone for good reasons...there are always people willing to use technology for darker reasons.

Cloning would be the perfect opportunity for the next step, although its a huge one, from surgery. creating the perfect person. the perfect baby perhaps?

I personally don't see that as a good thing, i see it as something would make the world an even more damaged and superficial place than it already is.

Imagine people being able to select their perfect combination for a child...blond blue eyes....thats a scary thing. Even more scary is the amount of people who would probably go for this idea, pay for it.

In my mind, if it ever went to that extreme, thats just interfering with nature, for reasons due to greed rather than curing illness, and in the end, natures gonna show you what a mess you've made.

As far as recreating organs for medical purposes, i'm not sure how i feel, as i know little about either subject, so I'll just keep reading you guys.
serenity blaze
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23 posted 04-11-2004 08:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Nodding with gemma here--

what scares me is just "whose" definition of perfection might be the standard.

I couldn't help but think of the obvious example of Hitler.

But then? at the same time?

I sure wouldn't mind a new liver...yanno?



Sure ya'll do.



Ron
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24 posted 04-11-2004 09:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

A perfect child isn't necessarily a bad thing. You know, one without sickle cell anemia, congenital heart defects, Muscular Dystrophy, that sort of thing?
 
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