How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Gene Therapy --> Cloning   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Gene Therapy --> Cloning

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
gemjop
Member Elite
since 11-18-2002
Posts 2663
Pencilveinia, USA


25 posted 04-11-2004 09:29 PM       View Profile for gemjop   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for gemjop

Yes, butlike karen pointed out everybody's got a different view of what perfection is.

I can see what youre saying, but I would not define a child who didnt have say sickle cell anaemia, perfect. once you've got rid of that problem, what next? Where do you draw the line, and stop.

Surely many people with illnesses, long term or not see their lives as just as worthwhile as someone without one? what if their illness made them someone they could never have been if they didn't have it? what would the world be like without disease, survival and death?

Gah, i could never debate like you lot manage to, i get so torn between ideas, and end up ranting, asking unanswerable questions like i just have...  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


26 posted 04-11-2004 10:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

If everybody's got a different idea of perfection, what's the problem?

Think about what you're saying though. What would it be like to live in a world without disease or death? I don't know, let's find out.

Personally, I don't think cloning or genetic engineering will create such a world, but if we can get a little closer, why not?

Hey, maybe we can make ourselves immune to mosquitos?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


27 posted 04-11-2004 10:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Nature does best what is best for nature.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


28 posted 04-11-2004 11:20 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Personification is a delightful tool in poetry, Ess, and can sometimes offer surprising clarifications. Taken literally, however, it only serves to cloud reason.

Still, let's try it your way.

Science isn't the enemy of nature, but rather is its agent. All that nature is and does, it does through science.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


29 posted 04-11-2004 11:23 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Then get out of its way.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


30 posted 04-11-2004 11:31 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Raph, no apology necessary. I didn't think you were accusing me of anything -- I just wasn't sure exactly what you thought I was thinking.

Ess and Brad;
I don't understand these statements;

quote:

People can't tell for sure if "part" is not missing when an organism is cloned.  It may look complete but something more inward and complex may not be there.



and Brad's response;
quote:

And people will always ask this question because it can never be answered.  



Unless I'm missing something?  

The map of a genome can tell us if everything is 'there' or not.  I'm not sure what 'everything' means though.

berengar -- I'm actually more concerned about the privacy issues that may be involved in an era of DNA omniscience as discussed here
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum8/HTML/000254.html

more later
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


31 posted 04-11-2004 11:36 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ess;

Isn't it natural for birds to build nests?  Beavers dams?  Rabbits to dig holes?

Why then isn't it natural for humanity to develop technology to exploit nature?

I suspect the conundrum comes from contemplating that we may be the only species that ever engineers its own evolution.

I'm not sure what's scary about that -- except that perhaps it stirs a notion in us that we may already be obsolete.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


32 posted 04-12-2004 12:30 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I'm surprised nobody has looked at it from a spiritual point of view so to sling this in another direction, how many believe that 'souls' exist? Can a soul be carbon copied? Is there a finite amount of souls to go around, and does cloning therefore disturb the natural or 'devine' order of things?

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


33 posted 04-12-2004 02:14 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Science isn't the enemy of nature, but rather is its agent. All that nature is and does, it does through science."

Ron
I can't find myself able confuse the two like that.
All you need to do is imagine the world without humans.
No nuclearplants, no  bombs, no cities, or computers or cars,  or pollution.

It shows a difference.  It shows that the human's scientific hand is far from being or doing what nature is and does.  It is a big difference, I think.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


34 posted 04-12-2004 02:40 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"The map of a genome can tell us if everything is 'there' or not.  I'm not sure what 'everything' means though."

But that doesn't tell you if the unnatural proccess chimes into doing everything that growing should do, and what it does most naturally.  Yet, that is where there may be the biggest blank space.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


35 posted 04-12-2004 08:44 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
All you need to do is imagine the world without humans.

Sure. Now imagine the world without any bugs. That, too, would be very different. And neither world would be any more natural or unnatural than the other.

Bugs are part of the natural order. So are we.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


36 posted 04-12-2004 12:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Life is naturally occuring.

Weapons, pollution, toxic waste, garbage dumps, manmade clones, are not.
  

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


37 posted 04-12-2004 01:29 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Then, Ess, a beaver building a dam isn't natural?

I was definitely thinking along the lines of disease elimination / reduction when I posted this. Even now, we have some technology (stem cell research in its infancy) that holds some mighty potential toward this end.

As to whether cloning a human would be possible... it seems very likely: http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1672523
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


38 posted 04-12-2004 01:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Local
"Isn't it natural for birds to build nests?  Beavers dams?  Rabbits to dig holes?

Why then isn't it natural for humanity to develop technology to exploit nature?"

Because the plan humans have and "engineer" is really not a worldly--for the whole world, it is a human one for the human sphere of things, full of human excesses that show more and more discord with nature.  Rabbits dig holes, but not in the ozone layer.  Beavers make dams, but they don't explode and leave radiation.  It is not technology that is completly unnatural, they are the vices and extremes that humans go to; and the worst of those is continuing them when they continue to make the world less safe.

Nature does best for nature.  
If only humans did.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-12-2004 03:39 PM).]

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


39 posted 04-12-2004 02:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"I was definitely thinking along the lines of disease elimination / reduction when I posted this. Even now, we have some technology (stem cell research in its infancy) that holds some mighty potential toward this end. "


This is a respectable end.  But how does it necessitate cloning whole humanbeings?
If scientists can clone the right "bits and pieces"  It seems a needless play with fire and risk to clone a whole organism.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-12-2004 03:33 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


40 posted 04-12-2004 04:06 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Life is naturally occuring.

Weapons, pollution, toxic waste, garbage dumps, manmade clones, are not.

You think they're supernatural, then?

If it occurs in nature, Ess, it is by definition natural. That doesn't necessarily make it beneficial, of course, but it is illogical to call the results of a natural process unnatural.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


41 posted 04-12-2004 05:13 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
Because the plan humans have and "engineer" is really not a worldly--for the whole world, it is a human one for the human sphere of things, full of human excesses that show more and more discord with nature.
Humans aren't the only beings given to excess or selfishness. Ever seen a fat dog? Ever seen a lion attack a cub who was trying to get in to feed? Ever hear of a wolf driving off an injured/crippled pack member? Not a one of these creatures are looking at a "worldly view." They're all acting selfishly, because it is base nature to do so. I think what you're arguing against are some of the "bad" things we as humans have done. I applaud that, but suggesting that cloning is going to propogate that is like suggesting we shouldn't utilize a scalpel during surgery because someone could use it as a weapon.
quote:
This is a respectable end.  But how does it necessitate cloning whole humanbeings?
If scientists can clone the right "bits and pieces"  It seems a needless play with fire and risk to clone a whole organism.
Wouldn't it be better to prevent the disease in the first place by cloning a disease-free individual than to treat it after the fact?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


42 posted 04-12-2004 06:02 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"You think they're supernatural, then?

If it occurs in nature, Ess, it is by definition natural. That doesn't necessarily make it beneficial, of course, but it is illogical to call the results of a natural process unnatural. "

I just think there is a more native state of things that must be preserved, an integrity of nature.  All machines and tools come from "parts" of that; but the more we become detached from that and minimize the natural world amidst our engineered world, the more that shall be smothered and fall down; and in an age hence, when the world is all manmade of structuralism, all we shall need and want is a more natural world back.  But it shall be too late.  We shall have to control almost everything made so dependant on our ability to use extraordinary force; but we won't be able.
  
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


43 posted 04-12-2004 08:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LOL. Take off all your clothes, Ess, and go find somewhere isolated to live. No fire. No tools. Just you and nature, communing as one.

Then, when you get hungry or cold, neither of which I suspect will take very long in Canada, come on back to the computer and let us know how it went.

Humanity's only survival trait is the ability to control our environment.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


44 posted 04-12-2004 08:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"Humanity's only survival trait is the ability to control our environment."

Ron? sigh?

Explain that one?
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


45 posted 04-12-2004 09:35 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

That's easy midi-k: Mo' Nature wins EVERY time if there's no measure of control. This goes for humans and animals. Every organism on the planet (or off it, I would imagine) controls the environment in some fashion. Whether it be manufacturing a fire to stay warm, or utilizing the scenery as camoflage to stalk prey, there's a measure of or attempt at control.

Life's about control. Heh, told Meegun so.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


46 posted 04-12-2004 09:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ess,

I think it's common to fear what we don't understand.  That you don't understand the process of cloning or the scientific knowledge of human DNA is understandable.  Perhaps it would be better to learn more about the things you fear.  Without a cursory knowledge talking about the process itself is of questionable value.

If you want to talk to the ethical issues I think you might have more ground to cover.

What Ron is talking about when he says that we have to control our environment is the very thing that makes you afraid.  It is something you don't understand.  If you don't understand it -- it seems uncontrollable.  On the other hand -- the sun comes up by itself -- streams flow towards the lowest possible ground -- flowers bloom -- and trees grow.  These are comfortable zones.

It is our inborn (survival) need for control that sends us on a quest for knowledge.  Knowledge becomes power to control.  Some religionists think this instinct is also the need to find God.  Perhaps they are right.  

At some point we recognize what we can't control.  We can't change our environment, or other people to what we want or need them to be to survive.  We can't even change our own nature.  To fill in the answers of what we can't control or know -- we use metaphors and myths of God.  Some would even say truth.

Instead of cursing the darkness -- light a candle!  

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


47 posted 04-12-2004 09:56 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

C? I guess I was contemplating the beginnings and endings of life.

The embryo has no control over its environment...

oh.

well.

Till it wants out.



(and sheesh)

And LR?

I like this very much:

"It is our inborn (survival) need for control that sends us on a quest for knowledge.  Knowledge becomes power to control.  Some religionists think this instinct is also the need to find God.  Perhaps they are right.  

At some point we recognize what we can't control.  We can't change our environment, or other people to what we want or need them to be to survive.  We can't even change our own nature.  To fill in the answers of what we can't control or know -- we use metaphors and myths of God.  Some would even say truth.

Instead of cursing the darkness -- light a candle! "

*shaking my head*

still yet another one of those moments that startle me...

so in sync it was like deja vu all over again.

  


  
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


48 posted 04-12-2004 10:58 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Chris is right, of course, that all animals and organisms seek to control their environment, but my statement that it was our only survival trait runs deeper.

Physically, we are incredibly slow, weak, cumbersome creatures. We can't fight, we can't run, and we're too dang naked to hide very well. As omnivores, we don't even have enough stomachs to be a good cow. We are very, very poorly adapted to our environment. So we survive, instead, by adapting our environment to us. Should Ess be willing to run naked through Canada in April, I think he will better understand that.

Of course, in New Orleans, such an experiment would likely teach a somewhat different lesson.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


49 posted 04-12-2004 11:09 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Because all of Canada is snowbound and we rarely even see the sun beneath the snowdrifts..yeesh
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Gene Therapy --> Cloning   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors