'Also, you've mentioned a few times the term "patriarchal" when referring to the mother/father concept of family, as if that were somehow archaic or undesireable. I don't think we've really been strictly "patriarchal" since the early 70's when the economy took a nose dive and required both parents to work to contribute to make ends meet in the majority of households, but tell me, do you think it is more or less desireable for a woman with children to receive support from a man/husband, or to receive that support from the state/society? Because if she has children she will need help from somebody, unless she is financially independent, and I don't think that applies to very many of us.'
You're missing the point. Marriage isn't (or at least, doesn't have to be) patriarchal. The fact that single motherhood causes this financial burden on society, because if things like childcare and education were affordable, and if women were paid and promoted on an equal basis with men (which gets better all the time, I know that, but there is still room for improvement).
And I don't see why making an investment to make sure woman are able to support a kid (because I know plenty of fathers who are financially well-off enough to support the whole damn family) wouldn't be the logical next step for society.
If two options are: try to get people to marry and stay married OR try to make sure woman make enough to support the kid EITHER WAY- in my opinion it's obvious which one benefits everyone more.
And since it takes two to tango, how about better enforcement of child-support money for delinquent fathers (and mothers, for that matter)?
'The 'traditional' family unit (extended, not nuclear) isn't designed to keep the woman in chains, it's designed so that the man doesn't walk away.'
See, I must have just not stated this clearly, because you and Denise seem to ahve the same impression of what I said. I'm not against marriage. But the fact that it is, to some, the only true ideal strieks me as patriarchal, as does the acceptance of this ideal and the rejection of all others.
It's an interesting point... but I'm not sure I see how it pertains here? My point wasn't that it sucks when men go away (it does) but rather- why should it have to be such a problem, and can't we fix that problem in a way besides marriage? Maybe it would be more appropriate in Stephen's thread. I could be wrong... could you explain the relevance to me?
Also- the logical error thing- I see where you're coming from, and I know she wasn't trying to offend me.... you're saying that the offense was due to my categorization of myself in line with what she's speaking out against... right? But it's true... that I am a product of a situation she finds undesirable... but a situation I found desirable in lieu of the alternatives... I'm not angry or offended with her, personally, but I am offended at her statement, because it basically maligns a lifestyle that I grew up loving... and for that matter admiring my mother for having the strength to do.
"Isn't there a difference between 'a family' and 'my family'
Good question. I think a lot of us tend to visualize 'my family' when we think of 'a family.' However, it also has to do with what you've been exposed to. I know people with two moms... with a mom who went boyfriend to boyfriend, with moms in a busive realtionships, with mom's in good relationships, with single moms, with traditional nuclear families. So when I think of family, I think of all those things.