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Passions in Poetry

calling all atheists?

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Essorant
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100 posted 03-22-2004 01:41 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

A wolf shall eat the moon and sun
before these tribes again are one.


jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


101 posted 03-22-2004 06:44 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

In a nutshell, you don't have any interest in spending your time seeking ineffable "spiritual" experiences.  To that extent, I think you and I are on the same page.  But who ever said experience had to be preeminent in the worship of God?

Jim

P.S. How can you say you believe in Trevor AND maintain you're an atheist?  Hasn't Trevor made claims to deity in the past?  
Local Rebel
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102 posted 03-22-2004 07:33 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well Vicky -- Karen wanted to know what's in my lunchbox... I eat heavy...

There may be yet more homework as well...
Brad
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103 posted 03-22-2004 07:37 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Jim,

Uh, yeah.

Like many of my friends, you have the irritating tendency of pointing out my inconsistencies.

But when have I ever claimed to be consistent?

Denise
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104 posted 03-22-2004 08:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Brad, I guess people of faith have had some sort of faith or a faith mindset for as long as they can remember, and maybe it's just a little hard to think outside the box?

I guess I sort of compare someone trying to get inside another's head with the situation that I face when I get asked all the time, "What's it like to be a twin, how does if feel?" Well, I really don't know how it feels, as compared to what? That's all I've ever known, and I have nothing else to compare it with. I guess if there were ever a time where I was not a twin I could make some sort of comparison.
Brad
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105 posted 03-22-2004 09:54 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

That's a pretty good example. But what does it really feel like to be a twin?

What exactly is being asked here? If there were a time when you weren't a twin, would you then be a twin at all?  Say, a clone? Or, do they mean something along the lines of twins, unknowingly, separated at birth and later reunited? The former question is at odds with what being a twin is and the latter doesn't really answer the question as you really were a twin, you just didn't know it.

What would it be like to be a different 'I'?

Say, for example, if you used the word 'watashi' instead of 'I'?

For many people, people who believe in the 'apple' view of things, I suspect that, while the superficial things in life (language, culture, political viewpoints, religion as opposed to spirit etc.), they would still be the same person. They believe in a core.

Or perhaps not, perhaps they haven't really considered it in this way before?

I don't, I'm an 'onion' guy. Tear away the layers and there ain't nothin' there.

For some, that might seem a profoundly frightening way to look at things, but it follows from asking and trying to answer your 'twin' question.

And it's not frightening once you realize that it's a metaphor, another way of saying that the difference, our unique value as human individuals, is in the details.

  
hush
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106 posted 03-22-2004 10:10 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Stephen-

'But it's not always that simple is it?  ... Sometimes things suck for others but not for me.  Sometimes the disadvantage of others works to my advantage.  Sometimes I can do wrong things which others aren't even aware of.  It can then be reasoned that without their knowing it can't really harm them.  So unless there's an ethic which tells me that certain actions are wrong regardless of percieved benefit, the golden rule doesn't really have a base.  


I understand it (the golden rule) can be followed because it appears self evident ... and without much questioning at all.  But I think it's prevalence in moral thought is evidence that we have a standard of morality over and above us.  Something we can obey or violate in priciple every day.'

Good point. And I haven't ruled that out as a possibility. in fact, I said:

'I don't have trouble believing that. And the simple fact that God would allow him/herself to work through poeple who not only don't believe in Christ as the one true savior, but even through people who don't even believe God exists, says to me that there is more than just the one way to God, and more than just the one way to salvation.'

I guess, to me, I feel a guiding force, a moral system. When I think something is wrong to do, I feel it in my gut... like an instinct, or a reflex.

I'll be honest here... I dinged someone's car a couple weeks ago, without leaving them a note with my insurance information. Just drove right on off, because I knew there was no way I could afford to fix the car, or pay the ticket the necessary police report would ineitably lead to. So I left it.... selfishly, and wrongly, and I felt pretty bad at the time, and I feel ashamed to admit it here. And I guess you could say that it sucked for the other person and not for me-- at least, my actions would make it seem so-- but I still feel bad about it. And I know that feeling bad won't fix the ding...

So you're right, Stephen, it's not always that simple, and it can be beneficial to be 'bad.' But I don't think most people really just think "I'm going to do something bad!" Stuff happens, and we rationalize, and we may or may not be guilty about it later... but I didn't hit the car on purpose.

'You should probably stop short of saying "wrong" and settle for something like "disagreeable".  Because I wonder if you consider certain actions as really "wrong" or merely as things you happen to think are wrong?  Is it a violation of an overarching moral principle, or just a violation of your subjective sensibilities?  This might contribute to your hesitation at calling anything sin.'

When I say something is wrong, I mean that it is a violation of a universal principle. I damaged someone's property, and then I flew the coop. That wasn't just disagreeable... any way you cut it, I don't think you can look at that situation and say, "You know, Amy really did the right thing!" It is clear what the correct course of action would have been... I just didn't take it.

If I think something is merely disagreeable, however, I simply say I don't agree with it. For example, I don't necessarily agree with your religious faith, values, and practice (at least in the sense that I don't also believe in Christ as my savior, et al.) however, I in no way think it's wrong, or even foolish of you to believe what you believe. I have a friend who thinks that any logically-minded person will come to the conclusion that there is no God, religion is a fairy tell, and so on. I diagree with him strongly (as an agnostic, I find myself in the unique position of having the ability to argue religion with anyone, including atheists ) and tell him so... but if believing that everyone who doesn't believe as he does is foolish gets him through the night... well... more power to him.

I'd have been smarter to use an example of action rather than belief, but, well, I'm tired, and I'm sure you'll get the gist.
Denise
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107 posted 03-23-2004 07:18 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Brad, what's it feel like to be an onion guy?

Essorant
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108 posted 03-24-2004 12:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Powers and weights, densities and amounts
all are the core, all are the perfect cause
compounded any way - everything counts
and is a maker and breaker of laws.
Brad
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109 posted 03-24-2004 06:53 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Oniony
Brad
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110 posted 03-25-2004 05:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I've been trying to figure out where to go next here, but keep thinking that maybe a lot of these ideas deserve their own thread. I've started reading Lewis's Mere Christianity so I wonder if that might be a useful contrast. Nevertheless, I've stumbled across two quotes at the beginning of Putnam's Realism with a Human Face that sum up what I've been trying to say here:

quote:
Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves like locked rooms and like books that are written in a very foreign tongue . . . Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.


--Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

and

quote:
Let us be human.


--Ludwig Wittgenstein, Culture and Value

hush
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111 posted 03-27-2004 11:37 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Brad- that first quote is exactly the philosophy I try to take.

Isn't there a danger in answering the questions? What if you've answered the wrong ones, or answered too quickly, or incorrectly?
Brad
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112 posted 03-27-2004 04:26 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I think so.

Or perhaps the answers are all around us but we're so inundated with them, we no longer see them. Similar, perhaps, to the Rainier quote, I read a book in Korean. It ended with an extremely powerful statement on the importance of liberalism in Western culture. Translated though, it simply doesn't have the same power as it does in Korean: "They fought, sweated, and shed their blood for these freedoms for hundreds of years."

Sometimes, its looking at the same answer in a different way.

And sometimes:

Dennett (again):

quote:
There was once a chap who wanted to know the meaning of life, so he walked a thousand miles and climbed to the high mountaintop where the wise guru lived. "Will you tell me the meaning of life?" he asked.

"Certainly," replied the guru, "but if you want to understand my answer, you must first master resursive function theory and mathematical logic."

"You're kidding."

"No, really."

"Well then . . . skip it."

"Suit yourself."


serenity blaze
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113 posted 03-27-2004 04:46 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

resursive function theory and mathematical logic?



But actually, I'm just feeling sorry for the poor soul who would agree to try to teach me that.


Brad
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114 posted 03-27-2004 04:51 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Serenity,

Here's a truism that I constantly tell my students:

"I don't teach, you learn."
serenity blaze
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115 posted 03-27-2004 04:54 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Fair and true enough, Brad.

thanks for understanding
Stephanos
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116 posted 03-31-2004 01:02 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

quote:
Let us be human.



What if there's a real difference between merely human, and fully human? ... and a real responsibility that comes with being "human"?


Since you mentioned Lewis, I'd like to quote him.


quote:
"It may be hard for an egg to turn into a bird: it would be a jolly sight harder for it to learn to fly while remaining an egg. We are like eggs at present. And you cannot go on indefinitely being just an ordinary, decent egg. We must be hatched or go bad."

Mere Christianity



Stephen.
hush
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117 posted 03-31-2004 03:01 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

But Stephen-

we're not all Christian birds. You and I come from different eggs... we are incubated differently, our nests are lined with different materials, we will hatch at different times and... you know, the flight pattern of a flock of geese is different than that of a sparrow, which is different than than of a bird of prey...

Wouldn't the world be boring if the only birds were chickens, or robins?

BTW, I love the metaphor.
Essorant
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118 posted 03-31-2004 01:26 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Sunny side up please
Brad
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119 posted 03-31-2004 07:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ah, so that's why it's so difficult to talk to religious folk. They don't see the world, they see the inside of a shell.

Start to break it down.
serenity blaze
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120 posted 03-31-2004 07:22 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Smiling.

I was just talking to a friend about this thread, and how it left me feeling a bit bemused.

Y'see? Having Pagan tendencies, I have often found myself at the brunt of my own question(s).

shaking my head here...

I think I just interrogated myself.

*chuckles and hugs*

especially to Brad. Yer alright.
Local Rebel
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121 posted 03-31-2004 09:32 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Yogi Berra was right.  You can observe a lot just by watching.  
inkedgoddess
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122 posted 05-18-2004 10:38 PM       View Profile for inkedgoddess   Email inkedgoddess   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inkedgoddess

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
sorry i mean no disrespect; just wandered in here and couldnt find my way out...but it did get me sleepy enuf for some shut eye
Essorant
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123 posted 05-19-2004 12:04 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Sweet dreams
serenity blaze
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124 posted 05-19-2004 12:07 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I seem to be putting everybody but me to sleep these days...

write me a dream, lady.
 
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