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Passions in Poetry

calling all atheists?

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serenity blaze
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75 posted 03-20-2004 07:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

sigh.

YES.

Had I known how to phrase it, I would have asked that, but I'm assuming Atheists do the same thing in foxholes--they hunker down, don't they? Otherwise? Why the need for a foxhole?

sheesh.

I should have just e mailed you.

Local Rebel
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76 posted 03-20-2004 09:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well yeah.

When a problem comes along -- we must whip it.

And you have e-mail?  

Who knew?  

All of my attempts were rubber...

I'll get onto the whole greif/loss discussion after I finish my coffee..
serenity blaze
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77 posted 03-20-2004 11:23 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"When a problem comes along -- we must whip it."



"Whip it Good." - Devo



(and sheesh. okay, okay, I'll clean out my mail-box.)

Brad
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78 posted 03-21-2004 02:08 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Faith in what?

serenity blaze
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79 posted 03-21-2004 04:08 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Faith defined, as per the dictionary.com provided by this site:

faith    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (fth)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

Idiom:
in faith
Indeed; truly.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Anglo-Norman fed, from Latin fids. See bheidh- in Indo-European Roots.]

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


faith

( P )  faith: log in for this definition of faith and other entries in Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, available only to Dictionary.com Premium members.


Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


faith

\Faith\, n. [OE. feith, fayth, fay, OF. feid, feit, fei, F. foi, fr. L. fides; akin to fidere to trust, Gr. ??????? to persuade. The ending th is perhaps due to the influence of such words as truth, health, wealth. See Bid, Bide, and cf. Confide, Defy, Fealty.] 1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.

2. The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.

Faith, that is, fidelity, -- the fealty of the finite will and understanding to the reason. --Coleridge.

3. (Theol.) (a) The belief in the historic truthfulness of the Scripture narrative, and the supernatural origin of its teachings, sometimes called historical and speculative faith. (b) The belief in the facts and truth of the Scriptures, with a practical love of them; especially, that confiding and affectionate belief in the person and work of Christ, which affects the character and life, and makes a man a true Christian, -- called a practical, evangelical, or saving faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please him [God]. --Heb. xi. 6.

The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind which is called ``trust'' or ``confidence'' exercised toward the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior. --Dr. T. Dwight.

Faith is an affectionate, practical confidence in the testimony of God. --J. Hawes.

4. That which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion; especially (Theol.), a system of religious belief of any kind; as, the Jewish or Mohammedan faith; and especially, the system of truth taught by Christ; as, the Christian faith; also, the creed or belief of a Christian society or church.

Which to believe of her, Must be a faith that reason without miracle Could never plant in me. --Shak.

Now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. --Gal. i. 23.

5. Fidelity to one's promises, or allegiance to duty, or to a person honored and beloved; loyalty.

Children in whom is no faith. --Deut. xxvii. 20.

Whose failing, while her faith to me remains, I should conceal. --Milton.

6. Word or honor pledged; promise given; fidelity; as, he violated his faith.

For you alone I broke me faith with injured Palamon. --Dryden.

7. Credibility or truth. [R.]

The faith of the foregoing narrative. --Mitford.

Act of faith. See Auto-da-f['e].

Breach of faith, Confession of faith, etc. See under Breach, Confession, etc.

Faith cure, a method or practice of treating diseases by prayer and the exercise of faith in God.

In good faith, with perfect sincerity.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


faith

\Faith\, interj. By my faith; in truth; verily.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


faith

n 1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" [syn: religion, religious belief] 2: complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust" [syn: trust] 3: institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" [syn: religion] 4: loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University


faith, NC (town, FIPS 22600)
  Location: 35.58806 N, 80.46123 W
  Population (1990): 553 (234 housing units)
  Area: 1.9 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water)
faith, SD (city, FIPS 20980)
  Location: 45.02588 N, 102.03643 W
  Population (1990): 548 (249 housing units)
  Area: 3.2 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water)
  Zip code(s): 57626
Source: U.S. Gazetteer, U.S. Census Bureau


faith

Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true
(Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and
therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of
faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests. Faith is the result
of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17). Knowledge is an essential element in all faith,
and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3).
Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it
assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the
understanding. Assent to the truth is of the essence of faith, and the ultimate
ground on which our assent to any revealed truth rests is the veracity of God.
Historical faith is the apprehension of and assent to certain statements which
are regarded as mere facts of history. Temporary faith is that state of mind
which is awakened in men (e.g., Felix) by the exhibition of the truth and by
the influence of religious sympathy, or by what is sometimes styled the common
operation of the Holy Spirit. Saving faith is so called because it has eternal
life inseparably connected with it. It cannot be better defined than in the
words of the Assembly's Shorter Catechism: "Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving
grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation, as he is
offered to us in the gospel." The object of saving faith is the whole revealed
Word of God. Faith accepts and believes it as the very truth most sure. But the
special act of faith which unites to Christ has as its object the person and
the work of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific
act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal.
2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). In this act of faith the
believer appropriates and rests on Christ alone as Mediator in all his offices.
This assent to or belief in the truth received upon the divine testimony has
always associated with it a deep sense of sin, a distinct view of Christ, a
consenting will, and a loving heart, together with a reliance on, a trusting
in, or resting in Christ. It is that state of mind in which a poor sinner,
conscious of his sin, flees from his guilty self to Christ his Saviour, and
rolls over the burden of all his sins on him. It consists chiefly, not in the
assent given to the testimony of God in his Word, but in embracing with
fiducial reliance and trust the one and only Saviour whom God reveals. This
trust and reliance is of the essence of faith. By faith the believer directly
and immediately appropriates Christ as his own. Faith in its direct act makes
Christ ours. It is not a work which God graciously accepts instead of perfect
obedience, but is only the hand by which we take hold of the person and work of
our Redeemer as the only ground of our salvation. Saving faith is a moral act,
as it proceeds from a renewed will, and a renewed will is necessary to
believing assent to the truth of God (1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:4). Faith,
therefore, has its seat in the moral part of our nature fully as much as in the
intellectual. The mind must first be enlightened by divine teaching (John 6:44;
Acts 13:48; 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 1:17, 18) before it can discern the things of the
Spirit. Faith is necessary to our salvation (Mark 16:16), not because there is
any merit in it, but simply because it is the sinner's taking the place
assigned him by God, his falling in with what God is doing. The warrant or
ground of faith is the divine testimony, not the reasonableness of what God
says, but the simple fact that he says it. Faith rests immediately on, "Thus
saith the Lord." But in order to this faith the veracity, sincerity, and truth
of God must be owned and appreciated, together with his unchangeableness. God's
word encourages and emboldens the sinner personally to transact with Christ as
God's gift, to close with him, embrace him, give himself to Christ, and take
Christ as his. That word comes with power, for it is the word of God who has
revealed himself in his works, and especially in the cross. God is to be
believed for his word's sake, but also for his name's sake. Faith in Christ
secures for the believer freedom from condemnation, or justification before
God; a participation in the life that is in Christ, the divine life (John
14:19; Rom. 6:4-10; Eph. 4:15,16, etc.); "peace with God" (Rom. 5:1); and
sanctification (Acts 26:18; Gal. 5:6; Acts 15:9). All who thus believe in
Christ will certainly be saved (John 6:37, 40; 10:27, 28; Rom. 8:1). The
faith=the gospel (Acts 6:7; Rom. 1:5; Gal. 1:23; 1 Tim. 3:9; Jude 1:3).


Um, you mean there's NOTHING up there you agree with or utilize in your life? This is what I'm asking.

Brad
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80 posted 03-21-2004 04:17 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Still, no answer. Faith in what?

Make a decision.
serenity blaze
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81 posted 03-21-2004 04:22 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

My friend Brad, I believe I asked you if it is true, that you, as an atheist, have faith in nothing?

Brad
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82 posted 03-21-2004 04:53 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Serenity (Karen),
I'm sorry. You have't answered the question.  As an atheist (me), you must answer the question. What do you mean by faith?

I do not need you're necessity. I am not interested in spituality. I love mythology and religion.

Here's the deal: I like religion, I have no interest in anything spiritual.

Okay, I've said it twice.
serenity blaze
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83 posted 03-21-2004 05:13 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay.

Then let me try to understand this.

A guy named Brad, believes in Brad.

That's it?
Brad
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84 posted 03-21-2004 06:04 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, you don't get it yet. How hard is it? I DONT BELIEVE IN SPIRITUAL BALONEY.

I believe in you and Stephan, and Jim, TREVOR, Stephen, Ron, Nancy, and anybody else.
serenity blaze
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85 posted 03-21-2004 06:32 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm disappointed.

You're better than this.

And you certainly deserve to add your own name to the list.

I think so anyway.

(WTF???)

okay. I'll let you be. My apologies for the annoyance.

[This message has been edited by serenity blaze (03-21-2004 07:26 AM).]

Local Rebel
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86 posted 03-21-2004 09:28 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It all depends on the definition of spirituality Brad.  You probably use terms like 'sunrise' and 'sunset', 'visceral' and 'cereberal' -- even though we know them to be inaccurate descriptions of reality.

Some different ways to look at spirituality:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrainqa.shtml
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/truth/470Mystical.html#Epilepsy,%20the%20Limbic%20System%20and%20Mysticism
http://www.science-spirit.org/articles/Articledetail.cfm?article_ID=130
http://www.american-buddha.com/religion.begley.htm

Local Rebel
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87 posted 03-21-2004 09:38 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Oh yeah... and our cousins have the exact same limbic system.
http://www.cwu.edu/%7Ecwuchci/
vlraynes
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88 posted 03-21-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes


Hmm...I've been quietly following this thread, as I often do in this forum...  I've never spoken up in here before, because, quite frankly?... you guys scare me...*grin*... but?...I hope no one minds me jumping in this time... because I'm finally feeling compelled to be a bit less than quiet...

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused, though...

Brad?...
Help me understand please?... Why must the question of faith keep leading back to religion and/or spirituality?  In my understanding, the presence of faith is not necessarily dependent upon a 'religious' or 'spiritual' commitment...

Isn't faith simply 'belief'?... in something... ANYTHING?  I guess I'm not understanding why it's such a difficult question...

And?...if there is no faith... no belief?..then why bother?  What's the point?  What is there to look forward too?  

Without 'faith', how can there be 'hope'?...and without hope?...why am I here?

I know that much, if not all, of what I'm saying has already been said...but I sincerely want to know...and if I'm missing the point of the thread, I apologize to all concerned... but if someone could help me understand what is being said here... or, more specifically, what is going unsaid, I would truly appreciate it...
vlraynes
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89 posted 03-21-2004 09:52 AM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes


And now?...hoping I made at least a little bit of sense up there...
I really shouldn't try to think when I haven't slept...

Oh well... going to go try the sleeping thing now...

'night...er...morning, all...
Local Rebel
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90 posted 03-21-2004 01:10 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

A primer before discussion -- at least one of these interviews;

This is a discussion of the difference between 'optimism' and 'hope'.  It goes through the science of hope and the actual physiological changes in the body when hope is present. Dr. Jerome Groopman, of Harvard Medical School, draws the distinction that optimism is looking through rose colored glasses and that hope recognizes the obstacles of life but envisions a realistic path to a better future.

He points out that when there is hope the first response in the brain is an actual release of powerful endorphins that relieve pain and facilitate healing.

Anatomy of Hope
the book http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl/0-375-50638-1.html


best interview -- this is from WAMU's Diane Rehm -- I know Brad finds her voice irritating but she has a disorder called spasmodic dysphonia that paralyzes the vocal chords http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/daily/rehm0823.htm and is remarkable in her work. http://www.wamu.org/dr/2004/drarc_040223.html#Monday
direct audio http://www.wamu.org/ram/2004/r2040223.ram

good interview with Terry Gross of NPR's Fresh Air http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1638913

short interview with All Things Considered's Robert Seigel http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1618292

Brad
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91 posted 03-21-2004 03:40 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
And?...if there is no faith... no belief?..then why bother?  What's the point?  What is there to look forward too?


Wrong questions. How many angels can stand on a pin? Does that have an answer?

So far, the only person who has grasped what I'm saying is Denise. I talked about the nearby universe, she talked about the ocean, I mentioned my daughter.

Everything else, I think, is/are confusing tools for talismen.  
vlraynes
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92 posted 03-21-2004 04:14 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes


Okay, Brad... then help me grasp it...

If you believe my questions to be so 'wrong' then please tell me... What are the 'right' questions?

What questions do I have to ask for them to be deserving of a substantial answer?  

I'm no scholar and I don't claim to have all the answers...  I'm trying to learn here...

And Reb?...thank you... I'll do my 'homework' and will be back later...
Brad
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93 posted 03-21-2004 04:51 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

You asked, "Why bother if there is no faith?"

It's either a tautology, to have faith is to bother, or you're asking, er, forcing me, to concede something that I don't believe in -- the mystical more. You can get away with that because the question itself can shift between the tautology and the answer you're looking for.

That's why it's wrong to ask.

A common atheist response to the question is, "Do you mean to say that you don't really want to bother?"
  
Brad
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94 posted 03-21-2004 05:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

LR,

I listened to that last interview. It's a good thing not to worship the volcano god of pain.
Brad
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95 posted 03-21-2004 09:33 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Okay, I'm brooding now. Let me try this one more time:

In Neo-Confucian class, a long time ago, I remember the story of a master and his disciple (Can't remember the names right now, down right embarrassing because these guys were pretty important.) The Master said that all the answers of the universe could be found in a single blade of grass. The disciple, accordingly, sat down in front of a blade of grass and stared.

And stared.

And stared.

And stared.

Anyways, after several days of this and suffering from sleep deprivation and hunger, he concluded that the master was wrong. All the answers of the universe could not be gleaned from a single blade of grass.

Not one.

I remember laughing at this story and thinking, well, duh.

And yet what if the master was right but misinterpreted? There is no mysticism here, no supernatural secret to be revealed, only that the answers were not the ones that satisfied the disciple. And what if this misinterpretation, in fact, hindered his view of that blade of grass? He stared for many days but never actually saw the blade of grass. He never saw it because he was looking for something else.

In other words, the master saw a poem, the disciple was looking for a biological/philosophical/theological dissertation.

serenity blaze
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96 posted 03-21-2004 11:17 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm sorry Brad. I kinda have a knack for driving teachers nuts.

Local Rebel
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97 posted 03-21-2004 11:36 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Far too many have sacrificed themselves there Brad.

I was beginning to wonder how long it was going to take you...  

But you have to be patient -- it's like I said on that other thread -- Religion is like an operating system.  It's their paradigm.  The only way they can interpret the universe.  The whole language is built around it.
vlraynes
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98 posted 03-22-2004 01:33 AM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes


Thank you, Brad... that helps...

I took the time, tonight, to start at the beginning and re-read this thread, and I think I'm a little closer to understanding where you're coming from.  I'm still not sure that I understand how it's 'enough'... but at least I'm beginning to grasp what you've been saying.

Anyway... I'm going to sleep on it, and I'll be back when my mind is rested.

And, Reb?... I haven't forgotten about my 'homework'.  I'll check out those interviews tomorrow.

'Night all...
Brad
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Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


99 posted 03-22-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I have been told (by Berengar no less) that what I think is a little difficult to understand.

I am sorry for being frustrated and frustrating here. I am sorry that I pushed things. I will try again. If anybody's interested?

Fundamentally, I don't see the world the way you do.

I suppose that was obvious.

 
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