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Passions in Poetry

The Passion of the Christ

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Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
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The Ravines


50 posted 01-27-2004 03:46 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I didn't ask you to give me a definitive list of laws/sins.

I asked you to define sin.

What is sin?

I also asked you if you knew that Paul called Gods laws to be spiritual.

As for the greatest commandment, it was quite clear that Christ teaches that breaking any commandment is breaking them all, but that is not the issue at hand.
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


51 posted 01-27-2004 04:02 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I wrote:

quote:
Regarding sin, it is an act contrary to God's command which, for us, is both the offense and guilt of Adam having been imputed to all mankind (Genesis 3 and Romans 5:12-19) and, second, because every human being is a sinner by the hereditary corruption of his nature (Romans 7) he/she sins (i.e., acts contrary to God's command) daily.


Am I missing something?  I suppose I should have included omissions also.  Not doing what you ought to do is not all that different from doing what you ought not.

Jim
jbouder
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52 posted 01-27-2004 04:12 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

By the way ... you may want to read the conclusions Paul draws in Romans 8 from Romans 7.  As to "spiritual," I think it simply means the law has a spiritual source (i.e., God).

Jim
Opeth
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53 posted 01-28-2004 07:02 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I sincerely apologize. I thought Poets4Christ answered the question I asked, not yourself, Jim. The eyes do play tricks on me sometimes.

You gave your definition of sin.
I gave the biblical definition of sin.
I choose the biblical definition over yours (although yours was similiar, it wasn't exact).
Michelle_loves_Mike
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54 posted 01-28-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

I remember, way back in the 80's, when I was a teen,,,a movie called "The Last Temptation Of Christ" was beaten to death by all sides.
From what I remember, it was an ok movie, from the idea of "jesus" saying,,,the heck with this and hopping down off the cross to have a life etc...
It was one mans idea of "what if"....and it was attacked as a blaspheme...not seen as an.."o.k., could have happened that way IF..."
I'll go see this movie,,,,I'm always up for a good laugh
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

jbouder
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55 posted 01-28-2004 10:30 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

I offer you this in support of the part of my definition you declared "not biblical:"

quote:
Romans 5:18 Then as one man's [Adam's] trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.


So Adam's sin led to the condemnation of all men.  Feel free to read the surrounding texts to confirm this is in context.  By the way, before you cite what I quoted as proof that all are saved as a result of Christ's sacrifice, regardless of faith:

quote:
Romas 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27


Saying my position is not biblical is one thing, Opeth.  Proving it is something I do not believe you can do.

Jim
Opeth
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56 posted 01-28-2004 10:40 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Jim, take a deep breath. I said your definition of what sin is was your own. The passages you just recently provided does not define sin. Sin is, however, defined in the scriptures, which I still cannot figure out why you just don't admit to it. It is there, right in front of you.

"Sin is the transgression of the laws of God."

Clear, simple, precise, not my definition, but your own scripture's definition.
jbouder
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57 posted 01-28-2004 10:58 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Well, I don't see how my restatement is substantially different from the biblical definition, but if you use the old maxim, "let Scripture interpret Scripture," you find that the "clear, precise definition" is just as clearly applied.  I would say our basic definitions are in sync, but I believe your application of the definition is in error.

Jim
Opeth
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58 posted 01-28-2004 12:07 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Let's take it from top, starting with the precise, clear, definition the bible gives:

"Sin is the transgression of the laws of God."

Does that mean the laws of God are in existence or not? If you answer no, explain how they are not in existence. If you answer yes, tell me what you think those laws are, if you care to, that is.

Thanks!  

btw ~ I take it you don't accept my apology?

jbouder
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59 posted 01-28-2004 12:28 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Of course they are in existence.  So you do want a definitive list?  Okay, I'm game.  Although his list isn't comprehensive, Paul offers a fairly good examples of transgressions of the law of God in Romans 1.  You will note that Paul addresses gentiles here who did not have the Law of Moses, and I would direct you to the beginning of the passage to see Paul's reasoning for suggesting that the gentiles are accountable to God for their violations of his law.

quote:
Romans 1:29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.


But, again, I say that it is just as important to apply the facts properly as it is to know what the facts are.

And I do accept your apology, by the way.

Jim
Denise
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60 posted 01-28-2004 07:33 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Stephen, no tension here, at least not on my part!

No, I don't think it is merely a matter of semantics. Two entirely different concepts are being expressed. Opeth, on the one hand, I believe, is stating that the law (and the 10 commandments in particular) are in effect for the obtaining and/or maintaining of righteousness and that the Holy Spirit was given to enable us so that we can personally accomplish the demands of the law. I, on the other hand, am stating that Christ fulfilled the law, we are not under its requiremnts either to obtain or maintain salvation, but are freed from its bondage and condemnation in order that we may live unto God in newness of spirit. I believe that is the clear teaching in the New Testament regarding those who are of faith, and I believe that is the only path to victory over the flesh, not in trying to live by a rule book. Paul has stated in the Scriptures that if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. That's the difference I see here between Opeth's position and mine, I think.

Jim, I misspoke before telling Opeth his definition was not scriptural (sorry, Opeth), which started his questioning regarding the definition of sin. What I meant to say was what you have said, his application of the verse he cited is off-base, not the truth of the verse itself, which I thought I had conveyed by telling him he was taking one verse at the expense of lots of others and coming to a wrong conlusion, but I guess I didn't make myself clear enough.

I think the point Opeth is trying to make is that since sin is defined as the transgression of God's law, and since that is the case, why aren't we attempting to obey all of the law, say like keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) holy?  Is that your point, Opeth?
ESP
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61 posted 01-28-2004 08:09 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

I know I know nothing but just wanted to ask Denise...and please excuse poor phrasing of question, it would be nerves of poking my lil nose in here....should Christians try and keep what they can of the laws or because of Jesus and the holy spirit, does that mean that the laws don't matter anymore. Is it ok for Christians to sin because Jesus died for them? Please if this doesn't make too much sense or seems out place, ignore it.
PS Hats off to everyone trying to answer questions...it's hard enough trying to ask them coherently let alone reply...
Thanks!
Liz.
Denise
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62 posted 01-28-2004 08:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
should Christians try and keep what they can of the laws or because of Jesus and the holy spirit, does that mean that the laws don't matter anymore. Is it ok for Christians to sin because Jesus died for them?


Liz, the way that I understand it is that the laws could never be perfectly obeyed by anyone (and that is the requirement, perfection, 24/7 all the days of your life, and if you break one you are guilty of breaking the whole...all of them, so we've all blown it and there is no hope for anyone under the law to obtain righteousness, all the law can do is say we are guilty), therefore Christ came to do for us what we couldn't do for ourselves by perfectly obeying them and then giving himself as a sin offering on our behalf. By God's grace through faith we can experience his gift to us. We are no longer under the obligation of performing the law or trying to perfect ourselves for righteousness, because Christ did all that had to be done. We can now breathe a sigh of relief and just live life loving God.

Is it okay to sin? I can only say what the Apostle Paul said in response to the question, "...shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? ...May it never be! How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6: 1-2) and "Likewise reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:11)

It's never 'okay' to sin, and we always reap what we sow. But increasing victory over sin does not come by trying to do what Jesus has already done, because we can't do it! It comes by keeping our focus on the fact that He has done all that is necessary to make us right with God and resting in that knowledge and praising God for it. He changes you when you keep your mind resting there "working in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) and "not having my own righteousness, which is of law, but that which comes through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." (Philippians 3:9)

I hope that helps to answer your questions.
berengar
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63 posted 02-01-2004 06:36 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Are you there Brad?
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


64 posted 02-01-2004 06:52 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Steve,

What am I suppose to argue here? I'm not a Christian.

By the way, Mijung told me to post.
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