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Passions in Poetry

The Passion of the Christ

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Ringo
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25 posted 01-25-2004 10:06 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Oh... OK.
That is interesting... I hadn't heard that, however, I am far from being an expert on the situaion, other than my own beliefs (which don't really match too many people)... the one question I haev about your thoughts, is if we are all "there"... who are we ministering to?

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

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26 posted 01-25-2004 10:12 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

We would be ministering to the Jews in the Kingdom, carrying out any tasks that we are given by the King in the administration of the Kingdom. That's my understanding, at least at this point in time.
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27 posted 01-26-2004 08:33 AM       View Profile for Poet4Christ   Email Poet4Christ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poet4Christ's Home Page   View IP for Poet4Christ

WOW!

He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

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28 posted 01-26-2004 11:56 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Opeth, nope, I'm not hung up, just rejoicing that Jesus did for us what we couldn't do for ourselves."

Denise, I cannot figure out what you are saying at all.

Certainly, according to the bible Christ died so that we could be reconciled with the Father, but we don't keep the laws of God. The Spirit of God keeps the laws within each person who receives the Spirit. The laws of God are spiritual and never were done away with. That is why the bible states that to sin is to break the laws of God. I am taking nothing out of context. The bible clearly states that phrase.

When a person sins, the person's carnal mind is at disagreement with the Spirit. A person will know, through the Spirit, when that person transgresses a law of God. To me, it is that simple.

This doesn't mean the bible teaches that everyone will be perfect and not ever sin. However, the bible does give examples of many who had God's Spirit within them and "were righteous, walking with the Lord" ~ repenting from and not sinning.

Paul was talking about a person who is trying to keep the laws, not singling out the 10 commandments, on their own and how that is futile.  

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29 posted 01-26-2004 09:19 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Poet4Christ -   My reaction exactly! And even if my Dispensational understanding of the end times turns out to be incorrect, I'm more than sure that however it all plays out we will still be saying WOW!

And I'm looking forward to seeing the movie too. I have heard that it has left even grown macho men in tears. I better take along a case of tissues!


Opeth, I certainly can't explain it any better than the Word of God does. Maybe that's the problem, me trying to explain it. I think it might be better if I just let the inspired Word say it.


Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Galatians 2:16).

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through (observing the ritual of) the Law, then Christ, the Messiah, died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain - His death, was then wholly superfluous (Galatians 2:21, Amplified).

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:2-4)

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'" (Galatians 3:10)

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.'" (Galatians 3:13)

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” (Romans 4:4-5)


I also think this is a good piece of insight:

“Our pride drives us to establish our own righteousness. We strive all our life to see ourselves as keepers of rules we cannot keep, as loyal subjects of laws under which we can only be judged outlaws. Yet so deep is our need to derive our identity from our own self-respect – so profound is our conviction that unless we watch our step, the watchbird will take away our name – that we will spend a lifetime trying to do the impossible rather than, for even one carefree minute, consent to having it done for us by someone else.” Robert F. Capon, Between Noon And Three

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30 posted 01-27-2004 08:48 AM       View Profile for Poet4Christ   Email Poet4Christ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poet4Christ's Home Page   View IP for Poet4Christ

Amen Denise - Can't Wait, if only those unbelievers could feel the drug like addiction that the Holy Spirit has on our lives.  Just a taste developes an excitement to search out more.  I have no doubts that when I go see this film - I will be floating out.

By the way another INCREDIBLE movie thats not getting enough recognition is...

RADIO

I have NEVER EVER been so emotionally overcome by a movie before - almost sobbing throughout the whole movie.  I think only The Passion of the Christ will affect me more.

God bless both of you - Tim

He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

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31 posted 01-27-2004 08:51 AM       View Profile for Poet4Christ   Email Poet4Christ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poet4Christ's Home Page   View IP for Poet4Christ

Opeth

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:23

He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

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32 posted 01-27-2004 09:40 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

~ But if all have sinned, sinned must be defined... so I ask you, what is sin? Or better yet, what is the biblical definition?
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33 posted 01-27-2004 09:47 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Denise,

I understand. What you are failing to consider is Paul is talking about people trying to keep laws. I truly believe you are missing the point and I don't know how else to explain it but the laws of God and the Holy Spirit keeping those laws for you is not what Paul is talking about in Galations.

I believe Stephanos could explain it to you as I am sure he would not disagree with me on this particulare issue.

If the laws of God don't exist.
There cannot be sin.
Human beings don't keep the laws (Paul rails against this)
It is the Spirit which provides the begotten christian the understanding and caring to refrain from sinning.
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34 posted 01-27-2004 11:17 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I believe Stephanos could explain it to you as I am sure he would not disagree with me on this particulare issue.



Opeth, could you concisely restate your position, and how it differs from Denise's?  Then maybe I can understand where the tension is.  I still feel that you guys are missing each other through semantics, and probably agreeing with one another more than you know.  


Stephen.
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35 posted 01-27-2004 11:42 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

What is sin? I asked Denise. She gave me an answer. I gave her the biblical answer:

"Sin is the transgression of the laws of God."

But Denise seems to think that Paul preaches that christians are not under the law.

I have explained that Paul was talking about law in 2 different ways... just read our conversation and see what you make of it. It begins at reply 11.
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36 posted 01-27-2004 12:03 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Denise, that is an out. For if christ fulfilled the laws then christiand do have a license to sin - but we been there before!"

~ going back and reading this quote of mine, I realized I made an error. Yes, Christ did fulfill the laws of God, but that doesn't mean the laws of God are no longer in existence. That is what I should of said.
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37 posted 01-27-2004 12:31 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I think the confusion is caused by both the covenant theologians and the dispensationalists Denise mentioned in this or another thread.  Many in both camps fail to realize that gospel existed before Christ's advent as much as it did after it.  The main difference was timing.  

Regarding law, we have both the Law of Moses and the law "written on the hearts" of all men mentioned by Paul in the beginning of his Letter to the Romans.  The law presents God's standards of conduct for one to be considered righteous or just.  Before Christ, the ceremonial sacrifices were necessary in order to atone for violations of the law (not for any intrinsic value of the sacrifices, but rather for the value imputed to those sacrifices by God).  

Christ's fulfilment of the law simply means that he was the first person who truly lived a life that met God's perfect standard of righteousness and, in his sacrifice on the cross in accordance with God's design, the ceremonial sacrifices were no longer necessary.  It was by faith in God's promise to accept the sacrifices as atonements for sin that made a person just, not engagement in the act of sacrifice itself.  This is, conceptually, very similar to how one is made righteous by faith in the atoning death and resurrection of Christ, as I think whomever wrote the Letter to the Hebrews made that point clear enough.

Regarding Gospel, the promise of future redemption from sin dates in the Biblical accounts back to immediately after Adam's fall from grace.  As God's revelations in history progressed, more details concerning His (then future) promises were made known.  Righteousness was always imputed to men by faith in the truth of God's fulfillment of His promises, again, as the author of the Letter to the Hebrews articulates.

Although I don't think I've done the subject justice, I just thought I'd throw the Lutheran position in the mix, recognizing that we are significantly outnumbered by dispensationalists of both the covenant and progressive revelationist breeds.

And one would think theology would be be a little neater subject after 2000 or so years.  

Jim
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38 posted 01-27-2004 12:45 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I am not confused on this matter.
And you are correct, Jim, in stating that the Laws of Moses were done away with, but the 10 commandments precede those laws.

And yes, your saviour fulfilled the law - not by "the letter" by through His heart. We all know the Scribes/Pharisees of time did no have the Spirit of God within their hearts and Christ showed the difference.

God's laws do indeed exist.
They are spiritual and to be kept in Spirit.
The Spirit of a Christian keeps them, not the carnal mind of a person, which is at war with the Spirit.

You cannot have sin without the laws of God. It is impossible and completely irrational to suggest.

Example: Thou shalt not steal.

Keeping the Commandment

by Letter of the Law - A person may say I never stole anything from my neighbor or any other person or business. I have kept the commandment. Christ would say this is not necessarily keeping the commandment.

by the Spirit keeping it for you - A person, throught the Spirit is selling a car. They read up on the Internet/Blue book value etc, of what the fair market value of that car is and therefore they won't accept any amount of money over that fair value. Same could go with selling a home or piece of real estate, etc. That is keeping the commandment as Jesus would - or the God's Spirit keeping the Spiritual (Spirit of the) law for you.
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39 posted 01-27-2004 12:54 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Well, then your understanding of what it means differs from mine.  It is not the Spirit within you that keeps the law perfectly, it is Christ whose work is finished.  Read Romans and Galatians carefully and I think you will see that it is Christ's righteousness which is imputed to us in a legal sense called "justification" in the English translations and all sins were counted or imputed to him at his sacrifice on the cross.

Now I think it is correct to say that it is the Spirit's presence in a Christian that makes our imperfectly good works acceptible to God, but I think your position, unless I'm misreading it, takes it a little farther than the text does.  You seem to be confusing justification and sanctification - that is, what makes use righteous in the eyes of God versus living the good, Christian life.

Jim
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40 posted 01-27-2004 01:00 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

The problem that just arose is that you believe the Spirit to be a part of a trinity, for me saying that the Spirit of God keeps the laws of God for you, which the Spirit must do because God's laws are spiritual and Paul (with much passion) says Christians are not to sin, is saying that the Spirit of God (Christ) through the Father is the Spirit residing within you.

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41 posted 01-27-2004 01:03 PM       View Profile for Poet4Christ   Email Poet4Christ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poet4Christ's Home Page   View IP for Poet4Christ

Opeth - I'm not an arguer - as a believer What is said in scripture is final.. so if it sais - "all have sinned" than it means all have sinned.  I can't look at it the way Clinton looked at the defintion of "is".

God bless you man - Tim

He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

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42 posted 01-27-2004 01:12 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"... so if it sais - "all have sinned" than it means all have sinned.  I can't look at it the way Clinton looked at the defintion of "is"."

~ What Clinton declared about "is" has nothing to do with what I asked you. All I asked you was to define the biblical definition of sin. If you believe "all have sinned" don't you think you should know what sin is?
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43 posted 01-27-2004 01:45 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

Whether the Spirit is part of the triune Godhead or an impersonal force has little to do with the interpretation of the key passages in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews I alluded to.  Paul said "Don't sin" so emphatically because, at the same time Judaizers were trying to get all new believers to keep the ceremonial laws, antinomians were saying "sin more so grace may abound also."

Both positions are error and Paul addresses both.  In contrast to both extreme positions, I believe Paul was abundantly clear that the good things we do are done in response to the finished work that was done for us in Christ.  James has a little bit of a different spin on it when he wrote "Faith without works is dead," but I believe both Paul's and James' positions are harmoneous if you consider good works (and refraining from sinning) to be evidence of true faith, rather than a means to faith.

As to God's laws being spiritual, I believe most of them are more properly described as being moral - the first table address how we are to act toward God and the second regarding how we are to act toward our fellow man.  Our spiritual conditions affects to what extent we are capable of keeping those laws - but I'm not sure whether I agree with you that God's laws are therefore spiritual.

Jim
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44 posted 01-27-2004 01:50 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Let me ask you this, Jim...

What is sin?

And have you not read that Paul defines the laws of God as spiritual? I am not saying they are spiritual, but Paul says so.
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45 posted 01-27-2004 02:12 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I'd need to find and read the passage.

Regarding sin, it is an act contrary to God's command which, for us, is both the offense and guilt of Adam having been imputed to all mankind (Genesis 3 and Romans 5:12-19) and, second, because every human being is a sinner by the hereditary corruption of his nature (Romans 7) he/she sins (i.e., acts contrary to God's command) daily.

I realize you have a problem with original sin, so I don't expect you to completely agree with my position.

Jim
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46 posted 01-27-2004 02:28 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Regarding sin, it is an act contrary to God's command"

~ Which is basically what I told Denise. The next logical step in determining the aspects of sin is - once we know that sin is the breaking of the laws of god as is written in the bible (you say command and I will equate that to law(s)), the next step is to determine what those commands are.

Humans cannot add nor subtract from the bible, so whatever those commands are, must come directly from scripture.

So I ask you, what are those commands?  
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47 posted 01-27-2004 02:44 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Put simply, to love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.  That is at the heart of what God expects, and it is our total inability to keep these commands (or laws) that condemns us.

That's the law part.  The Gospel is simply that we have been save from God by God.

Jim
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48 posted 01-27-2004 02:54 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

To love God with all of your heart and soul (The first 4 Commandments). To love your neighbor likewise (the last 6 commandments).

Not obeying the letter of the law, but the Spirit of the laws of God. This cannot be open to interpretation, otherwise the church splits (as has already happened), as humans inject what they believe it means to love both God and neighbor, when Christ, who gave the 10 Commandments to begin with, instructs us, through the Spirit, as to what it means to love both God and neighbor - by keep the commandments.  

But then Jim, you still didn't answer my questions.
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49 posted 01-27-2004 03:03 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Which acts are and are not sinful can certainly, at times, be open to interpretation.  What isn't open to interpretation is our utter inability to keep even the simplest commands perfectly.  Don't you think that was Jesus' point in answering the lawyer's question regarding which is the greatest commandment?

I thought I answered your questions.  Maybe I didn't understand what you wanted.  If you wanted me to give you a definitive list of laws and sins, then I'd have to say "You go first" because I have neither the time nor inclination to do so.

Jim
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