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Passions in Poetry

I need to know how you feel about "jesus"

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Michelle_loves_Mike
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0 posted 01-18-2004 05:11 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike


I've seen many ideals, ideas, and philosophies tossed around about the man,,,how do you feel?
Personally, I feel he was a teacher,,,and maybe a role model nothing more....
I know, I've heard he gave his life for me,,,but, so did alot of men I never knew, in our wounderful armed forces,,,,,
So , please,,share your personal thoughts and ideas,,not just dogma, and wrote statements,,,,
Thank you all
Michelle


I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike
Denise
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1 posted 01-18-2004 06:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hi Michelle,

I believe that Jesus not only died for us, but that he died for our sins and was resurrected to secure our justification. His death without the resurrection would have done nothing for us. I believe that only Jesus could die for our sins because he was the only one who didn't have to die for sins of his own. The spotless lamb, if you will, foreshadowed in the Jewish sacrifices in the Temple.

Jesus, the Christ has been called many things, many of these from his own mouth:

Advocate, Alpha and Omega, Author and Finisher of Faith, Bread of Life, Corner-stone, Counsellor, Dayspring, Deliverer, Everlasting Father, The First Fruits, God, The Good Shepherd, Great High Priest, Heir of all things, Holy One, I Am, Jehovah, Judge of Israel, King of the Ages, King of the Jews, King of Kings, Light of the World, Lamb of God, Lion of the tribe of Judah, Lord of All, Lord of Lords, Man of Sorrows, Mediator, Messiah, Mighty God, Morning Star, Prince of Peace, Redeemer, The Resurrection and The Life, Rose of Sharon, Saviour, Son of David, Son of God, Son of Man, True Light, True Vine, Truth, Word, and Word of God.

One cannot read his words and his own testimony of himself of who he says he is without concluding that he is either who he says he is, or delusional at best or a liar at worst. He didn't leave the door open to conclude that he was just a good teacher, a prophet or a good example to emulate. He made some pretty outrageous claims about himself. And if someone doesn't believe he is who he says he is, then why would someone want to follow or emulate him anyway?

Well, those are my thoughts!

Stephanos
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2 posted 01-18-2004 07:53 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I believe in the cardinal claims about Jesus ...

that he is the son of God, and the only savior of the world.  I believe that he died for our sins and moral offenses against the one God.  I believe that he rose again, bodily, from the dead, and ascended into Heaven.  I believe that he will return to judge individuals and nations and rule the world by divine right.  Our present forms of Governments, failing and faltering as they are, reflect this eschatological need.


But as to Jesus being merely a teacher, and role model.  If he was only that, then he was a bad one.  He claimed to be so much, that if he is not, then he deluded and disappointed, and lied.  He claimed to be so much, that this would be the ultimate arrogance ... to claim to be God, and turn out to be another bland moralist.  I agree with Mr. Lewis when he said we have three choices ... Jesus was a Liar, a Lunatic, or Lord.


Stephen.
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3 posted 01-19-2004 09:29 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

He had a lot to say, and what he said was basically the origin for a next "step" in the ever continuing evolution of man-made religions.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

Aenimal
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4 posted 01-19-2004 10:03 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

A revolutionary man/leader whose ideals were stolen and corrupted by Paul which then became the basis for a religion that goes against the very 'law' he and his disciples stood for and were trying to restore.
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5 posted 01-19-2004 12:17 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"A revolutionary man/leader whose ideals were stolen and corrupted by Paul which then became the basis for a religion that goes against the very 'law' he and his disciples stood for and were trying to restore."

~ Interesting concept, would you care to elaborate please?
Michelle_loves_Mike
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6 posted 01-19-2004 12:56 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Thank you all for you interesting views,,,I agree with opeth,,,aenimal,,,plese tell us more,,,,
liar, lunatic, or lord,,,,,,,what a choice
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Opeth
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7 posted 01-19-2004 01:08 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

As for the liar, lunatic, or lord options, I do believe those are limited. He could of just been mistaken or taken-out-of-context. Do we have Jesus' words on tape? Do we have his own writings of his own words or do we have a reporting of what he said?

Has anyone heard of the Haley's Comet routine? That routine applies here.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

Stephanos
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8 posted 01-19-2004 01:25 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Michelle:

quote:
Thank you all for you interesting views,,,I agree with opeth,,,aenimal,,,plese tell us more,,,,



Yes, I would actually like to hear more also.  However, I imagine that such views of Jesus as a mere aphoristic moralist, whose teachings became distorted by later religionists, who altered the whole history for political reasons, is based upon a certain school of study.

That school / method is reflected in what was called the "Jesus Seminar".  It was based upon 19th century theology and philosophy, heavily influenced by Renaisannce Humanism.  If you're not familiar with the flow of philosophy which came out of the "Enlightenment", it is best summed up in the statement that "man is the measure of all things".

But if man is the measure of all things, and we live in a hermetically closed universe, then there can be no such thing as the "supernatural" ... or nothing coming in from the outside, so to speak.

It is this assumption, which many of these historians accepted uncritically.  They used it as a procrustean bed, upon which to place the New Testament texts.  If anything in the narrative didn't fit their philosophy (ie... anything miraculous, or not merely a social/ political move) then they confidently amputated it from the text.  That's why their version of the New Testament is color coded as to what was actually said or not said ... what was actually done or not done.

That's why all the miraculous claims of the New Testament that Jesus made, including his own nature in reference to God, as God's son, had to have alternate explanations.  After all, it COULDN'T actually mean what it said, since such things CAN'T be real.  So, speculations and reconstructions about Paul and other ecclesial figures altering the history began to be accepted ... not so much on their merits, but upon the impossibility of the contrary.  When a philosophy disallows certain answers, other answers look most credible, no matter what they are.


I would encourage you not to take such assumptions about the gospels to be fact, without looking closer.  There is other scholarship that affirms the traditional understanding that the gospels are historically reflective of what happened, and what was said.  


quote:
liar, lunatic, or lord,,,,,,,what a choice


If the texts reflect what happened, then it does appear that that's what we're left with.  Jesus was anything but another moralist ... the world had plenty of those before Christ came, and good ones too.  That would seemingly compliment him, but in light of what he did and said, it is only a patronizing reaction to him.  If he's not the son of God, then he's anything but a good example.

I'm not saying that appreciation of Jesus' moral teaching is not a good transitory path to understanding him ... I'm more talking about making it the final estimation of who he is.  It is there, that such an answer cannot work.


Stephen.        
Michelle_loves_Mike
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9 posted 01-19-2004 01:25 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

I always found it odd, that "he" never wrote anything himself,,,"they" say the writers of the bible, were divinly guided,,,,but,,,,they wrote most of the stuff hundreds of years after "his" death,,,thats the equivilent,,,roughly,,,,of say,,,the pope doing Lincolns memoirs,,,,,,,
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Stephanos
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10 posted 01-19-2004 01:34 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I always found it odd, that "he" never wrote anything himself,,,"they" say the writers of the bible, were divinly guided,,,,but,,,,they wrote most of the stuff hundreds of years after "his" death,,,thats the equivilent,,,roughly,,,,of say,,,the pope doing Lincolns memoirs,,,,,,,



I think there's good evidence that the entire NT was completed within the first century ... actually compiled, because much was carried by oral tradition (typical of that culture and time), and writings as well.  Seeing that much (not all) of the NT was written from eye-witness accounts, it is hardly the equivalent of the Pope writing about Lincoln.  I'll try to get you some more specific info on the whole process of transmission.  F.F. Bruce wrote a couple of excellent books about the history of the NT.


Stephen.
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11 posted 01-19-2004 01:44 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Just remember, Michelle, to take what you read with a "grain of salt." A christian author of christian books is naturally biased towards his/her beliefs. Same goes with authors writing anti-christian books as well. The key is having the ability to sift through what is fact and what is conjecture and opinion.  And of course, if the foundation is unsound to begin with, then even the best built structures, although appearing to be quite sound, are flawed too.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

Michelle_loves_Mike
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12 posted 01-19-2004 04:22 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

granted Stephanos,
Having read the NT,,along with the rest of the bible,,,,I find that the "eye witness" accounts are from how they saw it,,not necessarily how it was,,,
As for writing styles, good ole King James slaughtered the translations,,,
Men, both religious and political, have made changes here and there to their benifit at the time,,,,so it's hard to get a straight accounting of all events.
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Stephanos
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13 posted 01-19-2004 05:35 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Michelle

quote:
I find that the "eye witness" accounts are from how they saw it,,not necessarily how it was,,,



How did you come to this conclusion?  Do you mean you have read that gospels are historically flawed, or do you simply "feel" it is so?


quote:
As for writing styles, good ole King James slaughtered the translations



First of all, good ole King James didn't translate anything, he merely authorized and ordered the translation effort ... hence it was subsequently named "The King James Version".  

As for writing styles ... The version is pretty well done, by the standards of 1611 English.  If you mean that the language of the KJV is archaic and hard to understand, I agree.  That's because we live in 2004.  


Just what exactly do you mean by "slaughtered the translations"?  The scholars who translated the collection of manuscripts known as the "Textus Receptus", along with the Latin Vulgate, and the Septuagint (a Greek Translation of the Old Testament) simply put the Greek and Latin into their own Language.  If you are suggesting that they mistranslated ... I would like some references.  Offer some proof that they mishandled the manuscripts.  I have studied this out, and assure you it isn't true.


However, it is true that more manuscripts were discovered after the 1611 translation ... Alexandrian manuscripts which date back much closer to the time of Christ and his disciples ... so that some of the more modern translations are actually better than the KJV.  But all in all, the KJV is an excellent translation.  I personally don't like to read it because the hithers, withers, thees and thous, tend to trippeth me up.    


quote:
Men, both religious and political, have made changes here and there to their benifit at the time,,,,so it's hard to get a straight accounting of all events.


This is something that is often said, and uncritically repeated, but has never been proven.  Out of all the manuscripts, there are very few errors in transmission, much less deliberate changes of the texts.  Because the later manuscripts can still be compared to the earliest ones, such changes would be easily spotted.  And out of all the changes known to exist, none of them change or effect any of the fundamental claims or doctrines of Christianity.  They are all minor variations.   So, the statement you have made is simply untrue.  Of course if you want to give me references, or try to show otherwise, I will take a look.  


It's really not so hard to get a "straight account" of what happened.  Especially since there is good reason to believe that what is written in the Bible provides such an account.  


I wouldn't just assume these things you've heard are true.  I agree with Opeth, it pays to look for yourself.  


Stephen.      
Michelle_loves_Mike
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14 posted 01-19-2004 06:16 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Stephen,,,,,I didnt ask for people to pick every word I say apart,,,,,,I asked for their feelings on the subject,,,think we could stick to that?
I know what my feelings are,,,,,and my beliefs,,,,,
michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Michelle_loves_Mike
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15 posted 01-19-2004 06:19 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

and, btw stephen,,,,no, I dont feel they misinturpreted,,,the lingadee of the day made things a bit different,,,
ie,,,shambles,,,,,,in modern lingadee is concidered a  mess,,,,in King Jmaes day,,,it was a meat market,,,,,,and since you are so well versed, I'm sure you know the verse I'm speaking of
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

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16 posted 01-19-2004 06:42 PM       View Profile for muslimah   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for muslimah

as salaam alaikum,

as a muslim, i believe that jesus was a prophet. he is the same jesus that christians believe in, but not the son of God or in any way a part of God.
Denise
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17 posted 01-19-2004 07:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Michelle,

Stephen was merely giving you his studied opinion to questions that you had raised. If you don't really want those opinions, then why ask in the first place? You asked about Jesus. You brought into question the validity of the Scriptures. You brought translations into the conversation.

You, of course, can agree or disagree with him and others, but you shouldn't ask and then say that you didn't raise the issues yourself in the first place by merely saying that you are looking for "feelings". What does that mean anyway? Nobody here responded with their "feelings" about Jesus.

The Philosophy Forum is not about "feelings", per se. It's about philosophy, thinking, arguing points, putting forth reasoned arguments for a particular point of view, debating. When someone makes an assertion, they are ususally going to be asked to back it up in some way, i.e., what are you basing your assertions upon?

If you just want to engage in conversation without in-depth analysis of statements, and possible intellectual challenges to those statements that you make, then maybe the Feelings Forum is the venue that would better suit that desire.
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18 posted 01-19-2004 08:02 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Michelle, Sweeheart... stop being such a shmuck. ANYTIME you say, or write anything, you are asking for those words to be interpreted, or mis-interpreted, or ignored completely. It happens to all of us... that is the price to pay for having our own opinions.
Now, as to the question...
I firmly believe that Jesus was sent here to deliver "His" people from the bondage of sin. By doing so, he performed many "miracles" that could very easily be explained by modern day science, however, were not so easily explained in biblical times. Does that make him divine, or does it make him a space traveller who used Star Trek-type medical practices to cure everyone? Not having been there, I am forced to go on my beliefs that he is of a divine nature, even though He Himself never laid claim to that distinction. He chose to call Himself the Son of Man, and NOT the Son of G-d as is the title He has been labeled with by Christians.
As far as my thoughts on the bible, I think that it is a fine place to begin to one's faith. I do not feel that it is the be all and end all of the Christian faith, as it was written by men, and it was written by men (the New Testament, anyhow) who had their own biases and agendas. It is thought that at least a couple of the gospels were written up to 100 years AFTER the events they are describing. And we all know that oral histories that are told more than once are not worth too much. And anything that was written more than a few hours or days after the event isn't worth too much, as the human mind begins to forget and begins to change events as time gets further along... we TRY to remember things as they were, however we don't.
Another thing that was brought up was the fact that his words and ideas were corrupted by Paul... That goes along with my thoughts on everyone having their own agendas... HOWEVER... one thing that not many people (even the "devout" Christians) is that in the 4th Century (I think) the Romans had decided, rightly, that they were not going to be able to maintain their control over the known universe with their mightier swords... so they decided to use the even mightier religion of the masses. Most priests of that day were political appointees, NOT religious. And the Holy Roman Church instituted the practice of Confession as a way to keep their ears to the ground, as it were. With the populace going to the Priest and telling them everything, the priest was able to keep abreast on all of the events happening in and arounsd his parrish, which he then passed up the ladder. The Holy Roman Empire also began to bastardize the concepts of the Christian faith ever so slightly. All it took was a tweak here, and a twist there, and by the time it gets 200 years down the road, the world has all but forgotten exactly what it was that Jesus came here to tell us... and we are left with what the Holy Roman Empire wanted us to believe. Now, take those twists and add 1500 years... We are not being taught the words, and ideals that Jesus spent 4 years spreading anymore than we are taught the truth about ANYTHING historical.
Just my thoughts.

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Denise
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19 posted 01-19-2004 09:16 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

In my search for an English translation that was based on a literal word for word from the Original languages, I was impressed with the exacting methods used in putting this version together:
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheScriptures/intclv1.html

I ordered and received the New Testament and will order the Old Testament shortly.

I am slowly getting over the awkward feel of sentence structure not being what our English language ears are used to, but I like knowing that I am actually reading consistent literal renderings of the original words.

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20 posted 01-20-2004 12:38 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

time restraints..will answer later on tonight or tomorrow
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21 posted 01-20-2004 12:50 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

quote:
Michelle, Sweeheart... stop being such a shmuck


Ringo, I don't feel that's a particularly appropriate thing for you to say. Do you know Michelle? If so, I can see how it could be lighthearted. But when I first read it - it seemed offensive to me.

Thought I'd mention it.

K
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22 posted 01-20-2004 12:59 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Severn- I appreciate your thoughts, and I truly appreciate the fact that you are standing up for another member of Passions...
Michelle and I have been very close friends for a while, and I haev actually called her worse to her face... of course, if you only knew what she calls me
lol

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Severn
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23 posted 01-20-2004 01:03 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

I just thought I'd check...personal attacks, you a mod etc etc...

thanks for responding to me, I appreciate it.

K
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24 posted 01-20-2004 01:52 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

And, actually, Severn... now that I spend a little time thinking about it...
You proved the point I was attempting to make to her.
Thank you.

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

 
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