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Passions in Poetry

I need to know how you feel about "jesus"

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Essorant
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100 posted 01-26-2004 11:17 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Image and likeness, would include our ability to think and reason"

Why would a being who knows everything all at once, need to think and reason?
It would be decent if God didn't have to be "allperfect," something which originally the word "god" itself didn't imply. That's because any pagan Gods were not absolutly perfect
Perhaps they might not believe that a Spirit is perfect because bodies are not (or do not seem so).
But perfectionists may not accept anything but perfectionism.  
Opeth
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101 posted 01-26-2004 11:21 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Arguing from a biblical standpoint, are you saying God couldn't ever be persuaded to take another course of action?

Besides, you missed the point I was making. In Genesis, it states that every creature was created after the creature's kind. Surely, since humankind was created after the Godkind, we as humans are capable of thinking and reasoning like God.
Michelle_loves_Mike
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102 posted 01-26-2004 11:22 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

I think it would be unfair to any omnipotent being to say they dont need to think and such,,,,,,If "he" knows all already,,then we are just waiting out the inevidible,,,what ever that may be,,,,
and no,,ay means we all have to look identical,,,,,,I have a son, he is made in my image, and his fathers,,,,there are similarities,,,but, he is his own person, looks wise and, goodness knows, mentality wise
and, since we are "all gods children", as limited as our human little minds can handle,,,,,,we ae in his image,,,but, not clones
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Michelle_loves_Mike
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103 posted 01-26-2004 11:26 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

if I follow my fables correctly opeth,,,,you got it right,,,since Eve took a chomp of that apple, we all have the choices to make. "like gods we know good and evil"...until then,,,,we supposedly were tra la laing along, happy in our little garden,,,,,so,,if you go by the book, till we were tempted to go for it, we didnt think like god,,,go figure......

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Essorant
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104 posted 01-26-2004 11:37 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Arguing from a biblical standpoint, are you saying God couldn't ever be persuaded to take another course of action?

Not if he's allperfect to begin with.
Opeth
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105 posted 01-26-2004 11:44 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Then he must not be all perfect, according to you, that is. Because God (Jesus, the Word) in the OT was persuaded to change His mind on a course of action.

Ron
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106 posted 01-26-2004 12:05 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

So, "in his image" now means "looks similar" and "with similar abilities." Okay. How similar?

If your legs get chopped off, are you still similar to God. If your brain is deprived off oxygen long enough to lose all but autonomic functions, do you still adhere to the image of God? If the way we look and think defines our humanity, at what point does a human being cease being human?

quote:
Arguing from a biblical standpoint, are you saying God couldn't ever be persuaded to take another course of action?


Right. And can God create a rock too heavy for him lift?

What people keep forgetting is that any absolute, whether it be omnipotence or omniscience, creates a self-referencing paradox. Such paradoxes are a mathematical necessity to our semantic structure, but can NOT be resolved within our semantic structure. "This sentence is false" is a self-referencing paradox that cannot be resolved. When dealing with absolutes, it is almost child's play to invent paradoxes because any absolute carries within it its own contradictions.


Opeth
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107 posted 01-26-2004 12:25 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I didn't say god could be persuaded. I read it in his inspired words. So, I guess in that case god is a paradox unto himself.

Anyone can put the oxcart in front of the ox, as is the same with the analogy of a person losing her foot and therefore not being created in God's image. That would be like saying birds are not created in their own image (the birdkind) because some are born without wings.

A person, if asked to describe the image or likeness of a human being would most certainly, unless they lived with people who all have lost limbs and whatnots, would most certainly describe a human in the manner already described.  
Essorant
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108 posted 01-26-2004 12:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The only thing that ruins the bible is perfectionism.
Michelle_loves_Mike
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109 posted 01-26-2004 12:53 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Ron, I was answering a question asked of me earlier,,,,i was pointing out that we do not have to be identical, to be int he image there of

essorant,,,,you got it
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Essorant
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110 posted 01-26-2004 01:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I know I believe in Jesus; but I don't believe that he has to be all or else he is basically nothing.  That is foul perfectionism.
jbouder
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111 posted 01-26-2004 05:21 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
"So you're omniscient now?  Are you presuming to know how God would choose to address His creation if He chose to do so?"

~ Come on, you can do better than that. I can easily say the same to you and your flock, since you all know the only true god and true way for salvation - which is much more closer to being omniscient than myself, for I claim not to know. Even, at best.


If I, and my "flock," are appealing to our own sense of what is logical and rational as the basis by which God must act, then you could say the same thing.  But I don't believe I've done that.

quote:
"If there is a true God, then I would think it would be His prerogative to address His creation by any means He sees fit."

~ But he created a being like me with the ability to question and think, I am sure his actions would be common-sensical.


The capacity to question and think is a far cry from the capacity to know how the mind of God works.  Why don't you flip through a few pages of Habbakuk to see whether or not God's actions always abide by "common-sense."

quote:
"God is who God is, not what Opeth, or anyone, expects Him to be."

~ Oh... So, he is not what christians expect him to be?


Actually, to a certain degree, I agree with you on this point.  We are only capable of knowing as much about God as He is willing to reveal and only then to the extent that our individual abilities to interpret those revelations will allow.

That said, I believe Stephan has articulated very well the trustworthiness of the Old and New Testament manuscripts and the evidence supporting the veracity of the same.  While I am certainly no expert in the art of Biblical interpretation, I think I'm good enough to get the gist of it.

quote:
"The rest of your post illustrates my reply to Essorant very well.  Your problem with Jesus, Opeth, is that Jesus didn't share your opinion of what questions are most important."

[quote]Where does it say in your bible that people are going to heaven? Where does it say we have an immortal soul?


It says unambigiously enough that believers will have eternal life.  What difference does it make whether it is spent on earth or in heaven?  What difference does it make whether I enter into a "soul-sleep" pending Jesus' Second Coming or I spend the interim period in the "third heaven" Paul mentions in Collossians (I think) from Hebrew tradition?

quote:
Where is the word "trinity?" If you think these questions are not important, and that only believing on Jesus is - your own book teaches otherwise.


And neither is "Kingdom Hall" but you Russellians still persist in not calling your places of worship a "church."   But seriously, the concept is most certainly in the text.  Certainly the first chapter of the Gospel of John equates The Word [i.e., Jesus] with God at the same time it distiguishes the Word from God.  Only by butchering the original Greek can you twist the text to read otherwise.

quote:
"Furthermore, you seem to ignore some of Jesus' direct statements that do answer your questions (e.g., "No man shall come to the Father except through me"), but not in the way you want them to."

~ I sure feel sorry for all of those who lived and died and never knew that - God must be cruel to send them to "everlasting damnation" for not going "through" Jesus without ever even knowing him.


Well, I'll leave that one up to God and trust Him to make the right decision (whatever that might be).  Maybe He'll show mercy, or maybe He'll give them what we all deserve.  Who am I to judge God?

Jim
Stephanos
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112 posted 01-27-2004 01:57 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ess:

quote:
The only thing that ruins the bible is perfectionism.


Just wondering what you specifically mean by "perfectionism"?


Stephen.
Stephanos
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113 posted 01-27-2004 02:07 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I know I believe in Jesus; but I don't believe that he has to be all or else he is basically nothing.  That is foul perfectionism.



Sorry ... I missed this.  Now I get an idea of what you mean by "perfectonism".


The thing is, insisting on the status of Jesus as the divine savior, (indeed the only savior of humanity), or as God in the flesh, is not some arbitary decision to polarize his character.  It's not a modern attempt to make him "all or nothing", but rather conclusions drawn from things he said, and did.  


I can share some scriptures with you about things he said, which show that he really intended to leave us little room for considering him to be merely a wise man, or a good man.  Though he was indeed those things, if he didn't truly possess the divine status he claimed, he would most certainly NOT be those things.  He would be a liar, or worse.  

I think the polarization, interestingly enough, was intended by him.  Though admiring him for his human moral beauty, wisdom, courage, etc., is certainly a good transitional stage of understanding who he is,  he has made it practically impossible to equate such laurels with his fullest and final identity.  


I'll share more later, to help you see what I mean.


Stephen.
 
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