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I need to know how you feel about "jesus"

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Aenimal
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50 posted 01-21-2004 09:42 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

If anyone is interested in the Old Testament concept of resurrection and afterlife which Jesus derives his teachings from; here are a few passages. The first occurs in Ezekiel's vision, in which God speaks of spirit and total regeneration:

'Behold, I will cause breath(or Spirit) to enter you that you may come to life.And I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive: and you will know that I am the LORD'
(Ezekiel 37:5-6)

Interestingly the concept of heaven is one on earth, the promised land of Israel

'Behold I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, My people;and I will bring you back to Israel..'
(Ezekiel 37:12)

and then explains who shall rule and how life will be

'I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone..and bring them into their own land and I will make them one nation...And My servant David will be the King over them and they will all have one sheppard: and they will walk in my ordinances and keep my statutes...'

These images are interesting with regards to Jesus. He is the descendant of David we are told, he is refered to as the sheppard and his teachings promote these statutes or Laws of God.

The theme occurs again in the book of David

"And many of those who lie sleeping in the dust of the earth will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to shame and everlasting disgrace"
(David 12:2)

and again a striking image a few passages later as Daniel continues:

'..I heard a man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river..'

Another interesting image used in describing Jesus or used by Jesus to further his words.

Another reference to the afterlife occurs in the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament Apocrypha, in 2 Maccabees. Throughout 2 Maccabees 7 we hear the words and actions of tortured captives. Their faith and fervour call to mind the modern day suicide bomber and the glory of dying for their cause. This is not far flung considering the Maccabean revolt constantly used suicide attacks and this mode of warfare continued throughout and after Jesus' time with the Sicarii of Israel.

'..you may discharge us from this present life, but the king of the world will raise us up, since it is for his laws that we die'

If one does view Jesus as the revolutionary, and some will, one could assume his teachings and comments on the afterlife were meant to not only or not at all as the redemption of mankind, but  inspiring words to strengthen the resolve of his followers. It isn't difficult to imagine this if one can take into accept an historical and revolutionary Jesus rather than the diefied version. And while some may dismiss this it is interesting to note that among Jesus' followers was Simon the Zealot and that there are many comments reffering to 'those zealous for the law'

Just offering an alternative view to Jesus and the promise of the afterlife.
Stephanos
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51 posted 01-22-2004 01:21 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Aenimal:
quote:
His words were not
meant to be taken as a reformation of the Jewish faith but a restoration of
it. He was a fundamentalist.



But what about the Jewish expectation of the Messiah?  If Judaism was not a static religion, but an expectant one, then it stands to reason that change was also expected.  Moses was the recipient, and the main “teacher” of the law.  Then, as Israel slipped away from that standard through the years, there came prophets like Josiah, David, and Ezra who pointed men back to the Law (or Torah).  They literally dusted it off, and brought it back in focus when it had been neglected.  They most definitely did not place much emphasis on themselves, but upon the Law given through Moses.  Here is an example:


"So on the first day of the seventh month, Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand.  He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand.  And all the people listened attentively to the Book of the Law


... Day after Day from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God.  


... The rest of the people... bound themselves with a curse and an oath to follow the Law of God given through Moses the servant of God, and to obey carefully all the commands, regulations, and decrees of the LORD our Lord.


(Nehemiah 8:2,3,18 & 10:28-29)


There were other leaders who likewise called the people back to the Law, as given through Moses.  But the question is, does Jesus fit this category?  Did he honor and uphold the Law, and call people back to the standard of the Law?  Yes, of course.  But when we look at the New Testament Narratives of Jesus, we see something more... something much different than someone trying to restore Judaism to a former status quo.


It must be remembered that:

1) Judaism had a Messianic hope, and many written prophecies concerning it.  (including a prophecy in Daniel about “putting an end to sacrifice”)

2) Most Jews held the “political” view of Messiah ... as one who would come and lead Israel in Military conquest, provide freedom from Rome, and provide a renewed national glory.

3) Jesus claimed, though cautiously, to be the fulfillment of that Messianic hope.  He was cautious because of the political overtones of the word “Messiah”, and he did not want to pretend to fulfill that erroneous yet popular conception.

4) Jesus refused on several occasions the tendency of the populace to elevate him as a “King”, or political ruler.  

5) Jesus often spoke of a Heavenly Kingdom in contrast with the current conception of an impending Theocratic state.

6) Jesus spoke of his approaching death, and resurrection from the dead.

7) Jesus often spoke of his wider mission toward humanity, as if he did not come merely for the Jews, but for all.

8) Jesus spoke of himself in terms which unmistakably hinted at his unique relationship to God, even his divine nature.  So much was this evident that the Jews charged him with “making himself to be equal with God”.

9) Jesus emphasized himself as the “way” to God, moreso than any return to ethics or ceremonial observance.  Yet no other prophets who merely came to call Israel back to the Law, emphasized themselves.  


I won’t quote the scriptures unless I need to, but if one reads the NT as is, it is obvious that Jesus could not have been a mere prophet who called his people back to the sacrificial system of Moses.  To avoid this problem, you could say that Paul and his entourage influenced the gospels, so that their content would not reflect the real teachings of Jesus, or that they altered the original texts.


But this theory has some major problems.  First, there are no records of an alternate narrative which might reflect the “true” account of Jesus.  What we have in the gospels is “it”.  Secondly, there isn’t much within them to suggest that the gospels are particularly “Pauline”.  His main ideas such as, the fully developed doctrines of the atonement, redemption by faith, the universality of salvation, and the relationship of law and grace, are not reflected in the gospels ... which were compiled after Paul’s epistles were written.  If Paul really influenced the writing of the Gospels, to steer them away from their pure beginnings, it seems he would have been much more true to his own more developed doctrines.  

The most natural conclusion would be that what the gospels set forth as doctrines in seed, were developed later through Paul as a natural outgrowth of the words, actions, and life of Jesus.  The gospels are in germ.  Paul’s epistles are the full blossom.  But if Paul changed the story, then it would naturally have appeared the other way around.  The Gospels would have been more fully reflective of Pauline thought, his main ideas having been already written down and circulated through the churches.  


Just some initial thoughts,

more later ...

Stephen.
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52 posted 01-22-2004 01:55 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hush:

quote:
... it wasn't included Biblically b/c it was too far off from what more solidly documented records showed Christ's character to be... and also that the Gnostics were kind of an extremist ofshoot anyway. But I wonder, aren't texts like that valuable, if only for comparison purposes?



I guess they are useful, for the purpose of studying what certain groups wrote, or believed about Jesus (such as the Gnostics).  Actually the Gnostic stuff is highly influenced by Eastern religous ideas ... Jesus is more of a guru type, to show people how to achieve the "way" within themselves, basically to show them that divinity is within.  This is contrary to the true teachings of Jesus.  But that's a side note.

Your professor was right.  It was rejected because it didn't prove to be of apostolic character ... which means the authorship was dubious, and the content was untrue to the writings which had been confirmed as genuine.

Here is a quote of an Early Church authority on the matter...


quote:
Now all these would be among the disputed writings; but nevertheless we have been compelled to make a catalogue of these also, distinguishing those writings which the tradition of the Church has deemed true and genuine and acknowledged from the others outside their number, which, though they are not canonical but even disputed, yet are recognized by most churchmen. [And this we have done] in order that we might be able to know both these same writings and also those which the heretics put forward in the name of the apostles, whether as containing Gospels of Peter and Thomas and Matthias, or even of some others besides these, or as containing Acts of Andrew and John and the other apostles. None of these has been deemed worthy of any kind of mention in a treatise by a single member of successive generations of churchmen; and the character of the style also is far removed from the apostolic manner, and the thought and purport of their contents is so absolutely out of harmony with true orthodoxy, as to establish the fact that they are certainly the forgeries of heretics. For this reason they ought not even to be placed among the spurious writings, but refused as altogether monstrous and impious. - (Eusebius)



Stephen


    
Opeth
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53 posted 01-22-2004 07:00 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Aenimal,

I understood your point exactly! It is funny to me how mainstream christianity, in order to keep its power and in order to keep the flock (and money) coming in always has found, what I call "outs" for answers which simple logical explanations should suffice.

You quote Ezekial and the Valley of the Dry Bones - I have heard that passage interpreted in a most amusing and distorted manner in order to keep people (converted) believing in a fear lest they suffer forever eternity. Another interesting and completely illogical interpretation in the bible is the passages of Azazel the Goat - which definitely shows how there will be a false christ whom the masses can not tell from "the real deal."  

But back to Ezekial, if there was any clear-cut passage from the bible about what a ressurection consists of and the nature of man - there it is, in Ezekial.

Stephanos,

A heavenly kingdom doesn't mean the kingdom is not going to come to the earth - the new earth! I mean, don't christians pray for "thy kingdom come?" Which kingdom? The heavenly kingdom. Coming to where? To earth -just as prophesized in the OT. Christ said as he left he will come again. That scripture matches up with the OT scripture of the messiah coming in all of glories to stand and split Mount... forgot the name.

But what I really don't get is how you and your fellow christians are so certain that you "got it right" and even the Jewish people and all of the Rabbis and scholars "got it wrong." Who is the judge here?

  
Michelle_loves_Mike
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54 posted 01-22-2004 08:04 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Opeth,,,
It seems that religions have been battling for eons over whos right,,,,,,they all say they are,,,,,so, that battle will never be won, none the less, they'll keep slugging it out.

Stephen,,,,,why not quote the scriptures you are refering from, so we can all share,,,I myself cannot, nor dare try, to remember book and verse for all matters,,,but, I can find the right one when needed,,,,part of what you've said is that the scriptures are accurate and unskewed,,so use them,,,cool beans
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Michelle_loves_Mike
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55 posted 01-22-2004 08:08 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

please, read this one,,,,it sums up the "which religion is right" debate in a nutshell,,,,,,,kudos to the auther!
Michelle http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum83/HTML/003153.html

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Opeth
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56 posted 01-22-2004 08:16 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Which other religion besides christianity thinks its got the "market cornered" on knowing the true god and salvation?

Aenimal
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57 posted 01-22-2004 08:31 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

As always Stephanos you bring up some excellent points, however, my problem with some of them
is that they're based on the assumption that the narratives have survived unaltered. This simply isn't
the case. Assuming, for a moment, that they did manage to avoid the 'telephone game' effect Opeth
mentioned earlier, there is still the Roman audience to consider.

One cannot underestimate just how much the original teachings and accounts of Jesus would have
been changed to suit this audience. To say that Jesus avoided the Messianic claim, the role of King
or that:

Jesus claimed, though cautiously, to be the fulfillment of that Messianic hope.  He was cautious because
of the political overtones of the word “Messiah”, and he did not want to pretend to fulfill that erroneous yet
popular conception.


is far too simple. You have to assume that any political overtones, would have been excised from the texts.
Changes would have to have been made and there are, of course, some obvious evidence of this already. For
example there is no mention or criticism of Roman occupation from Jesus or the writers despite the historical
turmoil. There is lifting of blame from the Romans unto the Jews, especially in the a biblical account of the
compassionate and understanding Pontius Pilate, whose hands were tied, versus the historical records of the
man. Through poetic license these changes had to ensure the survival of christianity and to avoid alien-
ating a Roman audience.

Also, thanks to the discovery of a letter from the Bishop of Clement we know that there were changes
made to the gospel of Mark. Clement freely admits there is  far more to the gospel then what we have read
and that the Secret Gospel of Mark  is "..most carefully guarded, being read only to those being initiated
into the great mysteries..For not all true things are to be said to all men." We're not talking about a mere
editing or noncanonical book, but a secret version kept from the public by the church.

The fact remains, that there are no facts with regards to Jesus. Just alot of opinons, hearsay and conjecture
this far removed from history. The truth lies somewhere outside the gospels and organized religion and in time,
hopefully, it will be uncovered for the sake of either strengthening Christianity's claims or abolishing them
altogether. Texts like the dead sea scrolls, Nag Hammadi scrolls and the aforementioned letter by the Bishop
of Clement have raised most interesting questions and insight into the times. Hopefully more concrete evidence
and texts are found to support them.
Aenimal
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58 posted 01-22-2004 08:35 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Which other religion besides christianity thinks its got the "market cornered" on knowing the true god and salvation?

Grins, you realize how much flak you're going to take for that? I agree though. Throughout history there has never been a more intrusive religion when one considers the Inquisition,the crusades and also the stagnation of science(poor Galileo).
Aenimal
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59 posted 01-22-2004 08:40 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

oops forgot to mention thanks Opeth

I understood your point exactly! It is funny to me how mainstream christianity, in order to keep its power and in order to keep the flock (and money) coming in always has found, what I call "outs" for answers which simple logical explanations should suffice.

It's been that way from it's inception and throughout its history. I don't think many people realize but many of the saints of christianity are actually compromises. What would happen was when christian faith was introduced into pagan or celtic communites they found it hard to completly erase or excise the former beliefs. SO what the church would do is amalgamate the original diety or personality worshiped with christian virtues and voila, everybody was happy.
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60 posted 01-22-2004 09:14 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Which religions think they have the corner on it?.........all of them
from the comet following cults,,,to the fellas knocking on your door with their literature....all think they are right,,,sadly, most think all else are doomed.
In the perfect world we would all enjoy,,,we could all agree to disagree, and find whatever we are looking for, be it salvation, peace, forgiveness, without someone tearing our beliefs apart
Michelle


I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike
Opeth
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61 posted 01-22-2004 09:21 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Raph ~ You are welcome.
Michelle ~ Indeed.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

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62 posted 01-22-2004 02:39 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Guesses out of the blue have more accuracy than wolfbitten books.
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63 posted 01-22-2004 02:44 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Essorant:

Don't you think wild guesses and blind faith are more or less the same thing?  Why is the former more accurate than the latter?  To the tough-minded, both are immediately suspect.

Jim
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64 posted 01-22-2004 03:24 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Yes; blind faith probably has more accuracy than wolfbitten books too!
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65 posted 01-22-2004 03:47 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

What is a "wolfbitten book" ... cult literature?
Essorant
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66 posted 01-22-2004 04:09 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is any book, but usually an especially spiritual one, that has been abused by people; whose "meat" of words and phrases are hounded after and hurt to a point where the spirit of the book itself may no longer be read very well in the midst of that.  Once people relent hounding and ripping apart the "meat" of the book it may heal and be read spiritually again.  But while the hounding and attacking becomes more and more the spirit and truth of the book is less and less able to be read.
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67 posted 01-22-2004 04:30 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

If there is a true god, I am sure he/she would make sure that his/her true words could be easily understood by the masses.

In the case of christianity, simple versus by the saviour could have prevented much confusion and allowed the true church to come together in agreement.

Statements by Jesus, such as these, which are no where to be found in the bible...

1. A direct defining of the fate of those who never hear his word.

2. Whether or not man possesses an immortal soul and what happens to man immediately upon death. Where in the bible does Jesus just come out and say, "When you die, this is what happens..."

... these are just 2 of many basic, but all important, questions of which any direct answers cannot be found, but are left open to interpretation.

Sounds like a very poor plan to save mankind when one "wills all to be saved."


Essorant
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68 posted 01-22-2004 04:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If there is a true god, I am sure he/she would make sure that his/her true words could be easily understood by the masses.

Well you may be mistaken in thinking a God uses words in the first place.  
Humans use words to express things, a God perhaps does not.
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69 posted 01-22-2004 05:01 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Essorant:

Well, I sort of agree with you.  But it is not that the books cannot be intelligently read as a result of some "hound[ing] after" fragments within texts to give credibility to their own poorly conceived prejudices.  The problem is persistent obfuscation of the texts in a public forum makes it near-impossible to to discuss the "spirit" or meaning of the texts intelligently.

Opeth:

quote:
If there is a true god, I am sure he/she would make sure that his/her true words could be easily understood by the masses.


So you're omniscient now?  Are you presuming to know how God would choose to address His creation if He chose to do so?  If there is a true God, then I would think it would be His prerogative to address His creation by any means He sees fit.  God is who God is, not what Opeth, or anyone, expects Him to be.

quote:
In the case of christianity, simple versus by the saviour could have prevented much confusion and allowed the true church to come together in agreement.


The rest of your post illustrates my reply to Essorant very well.  Your problem with Jesus, Opeth, is that Jesus didn't share your opinion of what questions are most important.  Furthermore, you seem to ignore some of Jesus' direct statements that do answer your questions (e.g., "No man shall come to the Father except through me"), but not in the way you want them to.

The problem with your points is that Jesus never claimed to have come to answer all of our questions regarding the glory and mystery of God and the nature of the spiritual world - He repeatedly stated that His purpose was to reconcile mankind to God.

Jim
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70 posted 01-22-2004 07:09 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

jbouder

You make a good point.
But If God may truly be found at one's own hearth and one may communicate with him, why shouldn't they go there to try and have the truth set straight about the bible?  
Sometimes I believe the frequency shown by religous people of having to spend so much time at the bible may indicate they are not actually finding the Spirit they believe in at the hearth aside of the bible or they or partially have, given up.  I mean-- at seeking God outside the pages and that the pages are where they only seem to find "God" as that is where "God" is written so that is on what they spiritually attatch them.  
But on the other hand, they may just need to get away from the bible and they may be very surprised at what is waiting for them at their own humble hearth.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-22-2004 07:56 PM).]

Michelle_loves_Mike
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71 posted 01-23-2004 08:33 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

"god" supposedly created us in "his own image",,,so, wouldn't it make sense that he would want to communicate thru words?
granted, I've been told that god speaks to your heart,,,,,this told to me by my fanatic pentacostol mother whom proceeded to run amuck "speaking in tounges",,,,
if so,,,mens hearts tend to go with the flow of what makes them happy,,,,so how would you know a divine hello form a , hey lets do chinese?
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

jbouder
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72 posted 01-23-2004 09:08 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Essorant:

I think most orthodox Christians would agree that it is possible to know some things about God's general nature without his direct and specific revelation of Himself in space and time.

Christians believe (or should believe) that God has revealed himself primarily through the written word. Why?  Perhaps because He recognized we too often become subjective in our decision making by relying on personal feelings that can be easily mislead.  A written revelation of God would have a more objective focus - so a savvy interpreter would be more concerned about what the Bible "says" than with what God is trying to say to "me."

Too often, I think people of all faiths tend to become too concerned with what God is "trying to tell them" or looking for personal signs from God.  I think the better focus is to try to understand His revelation and how one can apply it most effectively toward making wise decisions today.

In short, people usually become dissatisfied when they are not asking the right questions.

Michelle:

quote:
I've been told that god speaks to your heart,,,,,mens hearts tend to go with the flow of what makes them happy,,,,so how would you know a divine hello form a , hey lets do chinese?


For the reasons I noted in my reply to Essorant above, they can't.  And that really is a problem with much of Pentacostalism.  Unfortunately, the "heart" is not the most reliable of sources.  

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (01-23-2004 10:38 AM).]

Aenimal
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73 posted 01-23-2004 04:47 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Well you may be mistaken in thinking a God uses words in the first place.  
Humans use words to express things, a God perhaps does not.


The idea of God using words begins with the creation myth where God, by uttering words, ('Let there be..'),is able to physically manifest his image of the universe and everything within. He speaks directly with Adam and Cain and the his laws are personally dictated to Moses. It's not isolated to the Bible and christian/jewish faiths alone. The power and divinity of words is central to many religious/esoteric beliefs, like the Ibis god Djeuti,later evolving into Thoth-Hermes, of Egypt who was revered for the creation and gift of language to mankind as Prometheus was with fire. It is through words/thoughts, afterall, that humans are special(and horrible).
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74 posted 01-23-2004 06:46 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

jbouder,,,,,agreed
aenimal.....you put it very well
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

 
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>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> I need to know how you feel about "jesus   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
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