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Passions in Poetry

Universal Reconciliation

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Essorant
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200 posted 08-01-2005 04:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Once we come to govern free will better, we also come to mightier government and service, and freer will, because we may be trusted more to govern things healthily and worthily within those grips and freedoms given.  Free will does not become only better by the might/ability/possibility to make more good or evil choices, but becomes better because it has that might, but may be trusted to be used healthily and worthily.   An angel is not an angel because she/he is capable in  free will of doing more of anything than a man, but because she/he can be trusted that he shall do good within his greater power.  The more we are trustworthy, the more we earn our freedom, and the more we may be gifted with more.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-01-2005 05:09 PM).]

Stephanos
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201 posted 08-01-2005 07:24 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Denise:
quote:
Can the ultimate price, already paid by Christ "for the sin of the world", be demanded again from the sinner?



It can if there is anything required of us to benefit from the payment that has been made.  There seems to be a demand in the Bible for identification with this work of Christ.  It's not automatic, or evangelism makes no Biblical sense.  The Bible does not teach unconditional salvation.  You could put a million in my bank account, but if I never had the faith to write a check, I would never recieve anything from what you've done.  

And no, I'm not arguing for a salvation by works.

The so-called "literal" translations merely make improper use of the fact that all of our words for the eternal, are built of linguistic roots that simply multiply finite periods of time (for us, there's really no other way to describe eternity).  But that is also true of our English word "Forever".  And guess what ... it's also true of words speaking of the destiny of the righteous.  But I don't hear anyone arguing for a temporal salvation.  The same identical language is used for both the saved and the damned.    


Stephen.
Essorant
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202 posted 08-01-2005 09:23 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"...it's also true of words speaking of the destiny of the righteous.  But I don't hear anyone arguing for a temporal salvation.  The same identical language is used for both the saved and the damned."


Good point Stephanos.
Arnold M
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203 posted 08-02-2005 12:40 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Ess: you are undoubtedly well read, have studied man's philosophies and searched man's wisdom, but I would ask a question. Do you believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?
I'll go on assuming the answer is "yes". At any rate, you are quite familiar with the Scriptures.
I would like to know what you mean by
"earning our freedom"?  Is that "earning our
salvation"?
Assuming that is what you mean, let's discuss that, final authority being the Scriptures.

Question: Will mankind of his own free will, apart from God's influence, ever seek God?

Answer: Using the NIV, quoting Rom.3:10-12,18
"As it is written: there is none righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands
no one who seeks God.  All have turned away,
they together have become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

So then, as Jesus disciples asked, "Who then can be saved?" And Jesus answered "With God all things are possible."  

Question: How then can anyone "know God and His righteousness"?

Answer: By faith which is a gift through His grace: Rom.3:22, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe."
Eph.2:8,9, "For it is by grace you have been saved--and this not from your selves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

Question: Are all saved now?

Answer: No. In Romans 9, God makes it clear that He "will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He has compassion."  As the potter, He makes vessels of honor and dishonor. For those of dishonor to show his indigination and make His power known.  And, for those of honor, to make the riches of His glory known.

But, can this be right?  Can the God "who so loves the world He gives His only Son" destroy, punish the bulk of the world?  After all, no one asked to be born into a dying sinful race.

All for now,  Bick


Arnold M
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204 posted 08-02-2005 02:20 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen:  Your illustration of "not cashing the check" is not one I would use.  I can see all humanity drowning in the sea and Life preservers with lines on them, being tossed to everyone so they could be saved from death.  I would say that all would grab that life preserver, believing they would be saved.

As to "why evangelize"?  I believe Denise discussed that earlier on this link.  That is a logical question from tha human point of view, but from the perspective that God is Sovereign, that His desires, His wishes will come to pass, is where I stand.
The Apostle Paul, the greatest evangelist, I would say, to whom it was revealed that the church/body of Christ were chosen and pre-destined to be that body, never slacked in zeal to preach the word, knowin that those who are called would hear and believe.
Paul gave a good illustration in 1 Cor.3, when he said that he, Apollos and others, were assigned each his task.  Paul planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.  A metaphor of how the seed of the word is heard and takes root, but further words, like water, help make it grow, but God brings the person to a saving faith.
So, it should be for all Christians, as they are led, because we have the joy and peace of God in our hearts.

Will the church/body enjoy unending life?  Of course.  In 1 Cor.15 Paul tells us that we will be vivified, i.e. made alive to never die, just as Christ.  We will have new, spiritual bodies, fit for the heavens.

During Jesus earthly ministry to his people, Israel, He preached the good news of the kingdom, the kingdom they have been looking for, for centuries.  Will those who do the will of God, and be resurrected to be part of the kingdom of the heavens, have life for the ages, aionion life?  Absolutely.

And are the ages unending?  Not according to Heb.9:26, "...but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, has he been manifested."

In 1 Cor.15:24ff, we are told that Christ reign will end, whenever all enemies have been put "under his feet". He will have done away with all rule and authority and power, and will turn over the kingdom to his God and Father.  The last enemy to be done away with is death.  Which means all who were dead wil be made alive and all humanity will have unending, eternal life.  And the reign of God will never end, and the Father will be all in all.

God bless,  Arnold

Denise
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205 posted 08-02-2005 06:39 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Dang computers....I must get a new one soon.

JCP/Opeth...Welcome back! I missed you. I left you momentarily speechless? That's a first, isn't it? I'm glad that our hearts are in sync on this subject.

Ron and Ess...I believe that man has a will that he exercises and that he perceives it to be 'free', but I believe that ultimately it is subject to His will for the fulfilling of His purposes... "He is the potter, we are the clay." I don't believe that we are as 'free' as we like to think we are.

Stephen...I don't believe in an unconditional salvation in the way that you are thinking of it. All are not 'saved' now. Only those who appropriate Christ's sacrifice in the here and now by faith become members of His church/body, and will be resurrected when He comes for His church and will enjoy the blessings of life during the two future eons (the promise given for faith in Christ in the here and now). Those who don't appropriate Christ's sacrifice by faith in the here and now remain in the grave during those two future eons, and additionally, those who remain alive after the Church is taken out of the world will experience the Day of God's Wrath on the world prior to His earthly Kingdom being established in Israel (the promise made to Israel). And all unbelievers will also face the White Throne Judgment and be subject to the second death for their actions (believers don't...they will appear before the Bema seat of Christ, to either receive rewards or suffer loss of rewards for their actions, and are not subject to the second death). But at the consummation sin and death will be swallowed up in victory and God will become All in All, made possible by the efficacy of Christ's atonement.

We evangelize, as Arnold said, in obedience to God, as His vehicles to reach those whom He has chosen for belief in this world, for that is how God has determined that they should hear and come to faith.

I believe that all punishment is remedial, and limited, motivated by His love, and endures only until it has done its job.

Off to work now. Have a great day, everyone!


Ron
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206 posted 08-02-2005 10:10 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron and Ess...I believe that man has a will that he exercises and that he perceives it to be 'free', but I believe that ultimately it is subject to His will for the fulfilling of His purposes... "He is the potter, we are the clay." I don't believe that we are as 'free' as we like to think we are.

Then what matters life, Denise? If I kill my neighbor this afternoon, clearly that is what the potter wanted the clay to do? A few thousand years from now, a little murder won't matter to me, to my neighbor, or apparently, to God. Indeed, nothing matters.
Essorant
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207 posted 08-02-2005 05:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Sorry I couldn't finish my comment so I deleted it.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-02-2005 06:53 PM).]

JesusChristPose
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208 posted 08-02-2005 07:33 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"JCP/Opeth...Welcome back! I missed you. I left you momentarily speechless? That's a first, isn't it?"

~ lol... difficult to believe that could happen, eh?

I think it is rather selfish to believe that the God of your choice would allow all others to suffer for eternity. In fact, as I said before, I believe it is a doctrine of Satan - arguing from a biblical standpoint, that is.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

JesusChristPose
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209 posted 08-02-2005 07:37 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"But that is also true of our English word "Forever".  And guess what ... it's also true of words speaking of the destiny of the righteous.  But I don't hear anyone arguing for a temporal salvation.  The same identical language is used for both the saved and the damned."

~ Who ever said it was an "either or" situation regarding the specifics of the outcome? It makes sense to me:

Saved for eternity
punished for eternity

Saved for eternity - living forever
punished for eternity - dead forever

Not eternal punishING, but an eternal punishMENT.  I believe Paul called that the second death.

Thanatos = nonexistence  

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Stephanos
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210 posted 08-02-2005 09:52 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Who ever said it was an "either or" situation regarding the specifics of the outcome?



I was speaking of the Universalist belief that all will be saved ... Arnold seems to believe that.  Your belief, the annihilationist belief, is somewhat different ... it is the belief that those who are not saved are made non-existent, annhiliated as if they were never created.  They are different beliefs, but like spokes on a wheel they revolve around the same premise ... that an all loving God could never allow someone to suffer for eternity.  


I of course don't believe in that premise, because the prerogative of rejecting God lies with us.  I also think there's enough scriptures in the Bible that one has to ignore or explain away, which refute both the universalist and annihilationist positions.  


I've never read, "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis but from what I understand it describes people who see enough of Heaven to know that accepting the radical change it requires is too much, and therefore are willing to face even Hell to avoid it.  It's not an injustice to give men what they insist upon, and if we were all created with "eternity in our hearts" as the book of Ecclesiastes tells us, the duration aspect is simply part and parcel with who we are ... made in the image of God.  


Stephen.  
JesusChristPose
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211 posted 08-03-2005 07:23 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"I was speaking of the Universalist belief that all will be saved ... Arnold seems to believe that."

~ I believe the Bible teaches that the overwhelming majority of the humankind will be saved too. From a biblical standpoint, I believe it is evil and of the devil to believe otherwise.

"Your belief, the annihilationist belief, is somewhat different ... it is the belief that those who are not saved are made non-existent, annhiliated as if they were never created.  They are different beliefs, but like spokes on a wheel they revolve around the same premise ... that an all loving God could never allow someone to suffer for eternity."

~ That belief is no different than believing the the overwhelming majority will be saved. Only the few, the Bible teaches, will be annihilated. To believe otherwise is to believe with a prejudice against the millions upon millions whom never had a chance to know Christ... one must be born again in order to receive salvation. That happens after repenting, accepting Christ as one's saviour and being baptised with the Holy Spirit.

"I of course don't believe in that premise, because the prerogative of rejecting God lies with us."

~ Under whose terms... Yours... Rejecting your God... The way you understand to interpret words from a book? And that doesn't take into account the billions whom never heard of your Saviour... of course, they can't get a free ticket to salvation. Even Christ didn't get that.

"I also think there's enough scriptures in the Bible that one has to ignore or explain away, which refute both the universalist and annihilationist positions."

~ No way. I can't find it. I can only find passages that are either taken figuratively, or do not condone with a concordance like Strong's with how those passages are interpreted.  The most logical and clear passages always indicate that the wicked will be annihilated and the majority will be saved.  

"I've never read, "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis but from what I understand it describes people who see enough of Heaven to know that accepting the radical change it requires is too much, and therefore are willing to face even Hell to avoid it."

~ To be nice, it is quite evident that Mr. Lewis is quoted too much in this folder. He doesn't mean nothing to me. I don't hold him in any esteem at all... just as Christ didn't hold any of the so-called "learned" people of faith during his time.

"It's not an injustice to give men what they insist upon, and if we were all created with "eternity in our hearts" as the book of Ecclesiastes tells us, the duration aspect is simply part and parcel with who we are ... made in the image of God."

~ Ecc. doesn't state that. You interpret it that way. Ecc. does state that the "dead know nothing" Clear and simple. When one is dead, they have no thoughts... the dead know nothing. They can't. They are dead.  



"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (08-03-2005 08:06 PM).]

Stephanos
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212 posted 08-04-2005 06:04 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I believe the Bible teaches that the overwhelming majority of the humankind will be saved too. From a biblical standpoint, I believe it is evil and of the devil to believe otherwise


To believe that most will be saved is to be an optimist.  To belive that all must be saved is to be a universalist.  See the difference?


Annihilationists often disagree among themselves about how many of the wicked will be made non-existent ... As believers in the orthodox view of hell, disagree about how many will be damned.  So, quantity is another issue altogether.  Annihilationism, Universalism, and the orthodox view are ALL different from each other.  But the Annihilationist and Universalist view have the same foundation ... namely the opinion that God cannot be both loving, and permissive of Hell.

Notice that in what I just stated, I did not even attempt to argue why one view would be more tenable than the others.  Those are just the facts.

quote:
To be nice, it is quite evident that Mr. Lewis is quoted too much in this folder. He doesn't mean nothing to me. I don't hold him in any esteem at all.


Apart from his theology, he was a phenomenal writer.  


quote:
Christ didn't hold (in esteem) any of the so-called "learned" people of faith during his time.


I don't think you can foist an anti-intellectualism on the Bible.  There were (and are) many intelligent believers.  Is there a danger in being "learned"?  Of course.  And there are scriptures which address that.  One can slip into relying more upon one's learning and accomplishments than upon God.


quote:
do you think the arrival at the truth will be the same truth for both yourself and those who disagree with you? Do you think you can change the minds of those who disagree with and of course vice versa?


I think minds can be changed.  And dialogue is a part of it.  I've seen it happen.  Admittedly, it never happens quickly.  


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Ron (08-07-2005 10:27 PM).]

Denise
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213 posted 08-07-2005 09:19 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Ron, the Bible says that God is the potter and we humans are the clay. Do you think that it was meant to be taken as a generality or to be taken literally?

I'm sure that I haven't even begun to scratch the surface into the mind of God, but I do think that just as we can't truly appreciate joy without having known sadness, I think we can only truly appreciate goodness against the backdrop of evil, which God says in numerous verses that He Himself has created. But it is temporary, a tool used by God for mankind's eventual ultimate benefit, as in Christ's murder, or as in Joseph's brothers' scheme to attempt to murder him, and when that failed, selling him into slavery. I think that if we can try to catch a glimpse of the larger picture, through the lens of God's sovereignty, many of our questions become moot. Evil is only a temporary tool, for a season, but God's goodness, righteousness and love are eternal.
Ron
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214 posted 08-07-2005 10:16 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron, the Bible says that God is the potter and we humans are the clay. Do you think that it was meant to be taken as a generality or to be taken literally?

Literally, Denise? My doctor, I suspect, would assure us both that it's a metaphor, not to be taken too literally, but rather to be interpreted and, even, explored.

I think you're falling afoul of the paradox that is inherent in absolute power. Can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? Answer yes and you've undermined God's omnipotence since there's now something He can't lift. Answer No and clearly you no longer believe He can do anything. Absolute, unlimited power, by any human standards we know, inevitably creates such paradoxes. Similarly, when you mix Ultimate Good with absolute power, the result is going to confound logic. Can God lie? No means he's not omnipotent, Yes means he's not Ultimate Good. Seemingly, you just can't have it both ways.

Personally, I believe the problem is not with the answer, but rather with the questions.

Would God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? The answer, to me, is obviously no. Would God lie? Again, I believe the answer is no. The limitations are self-imposed.

Free will is the foundation upon which all faith must stand. If we don't have a choice, or if the choice has already been made for us, our faith becomes as meaningless as our lives. Preordained salvation isn't salvation at all.

Can God save every individual ever born? Answer Yes and the promise of free will was all a lie. Answer No and God is neither omnipotent nor Ultimate Good. However, once again, the paradox lies not with the answers, but rather with the question.

Would God save every individual ever born? Again, any limitation has to be self-imposed lest we run afoul of paradox. I believe God has passed all question of salvation into our individual hands. We get to choose. It's no longer a matter of whether God "could" take it out of our hands, but rather a matter of whether He would.

I don't believe He will.
Stephanos
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215 posted 08-08-2005 07:56 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Aw come on Ron,

ain't there a difference between good natured, ruddy-cheeked satire, and  maliciously insulting someone?  The world of literature and poetry would be impoverished without such banter.  And you've got to admit ... sometimes it's warranted.  You've done it to me!      

As to the other deleted parts, I think questioning motives is a legitimate thing to do.  Are we walking on eggshells?


Stephen.
Ron
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216 posted 08-08-2005 10:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
ain't there a difference between good natured, ruddy-cheeked satire, and  maliciously insulting someone?

There is. And I feel fairly certain I haven't mistaken one for the other. Of course, if I did, that might well be a sign that others could, too.

quote:
... I think questioning motives is a legitimate thing to do

Really? To me, it smacks of intellectual desperation. Making an argument personal is typically something born of frustration and a sign the argument has already been lost. What matters why I argue two plus two equals five? It is or it isn't, and my intent changes my contention not at all.

Attack the issues, not the person.
Stephanos
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217 posted 08-08-2005 11:34 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
And I feel fairly certain I haven't mistaken one for the other. Of course, if I did, that might well be a sign that others could, too.


Though I think you might have, I can see your point, and I accept it.

quote:
Really? To me, it smacks of intellectual desperation.


Not to drag this out, but even this, is a kind of questioning of motive.  I do disagree with you, when you say that questioning motives is always illegitimate, but I certainly won't say you don't have the right to raise the question (as long as there's no obvious rancor involved).  I can take it.  


Stephen.  
Denise
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218 posted 08-10-2005 12:17 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

In my case it might be extremely literal, Ron...I'm usually feeling all lumpy and squishy!

But I'm not finding the promise of free will in the Bible, especially as it relates to salvation. It seems to be presented as God's choice in election of those being saved, and the positive response of faith evidenced in them is also from the hand of God, a gift.

"For to Moses He is saying 'I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying.' Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 9:15-16 (CLNT).

It's all of God, nothing that anyone can brag about or take credit for in the slightest.

I certainly agree that God has self-imposed limitations as you stated, but I don't agree that salvation is something that he has put into man's hands in the first place, and so not something that I believe He will leave up to man's choice.

I believe that ultimately God's will is the only truly free will, free from the influences of genetic predispositions, circumstances beyond our control, and physical needs like hunger and thirst, for example, that can influence our moment by moment decisions or choices, consciously or unconsciously, and that His will shall ultimately triumph over every man's will, eventually. I don't believe that He will give up until He has found the very last lost sheep and has brought him safely into the fold.

I believe He can and He will.
Arnold M
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219 posted 08-10-2005 06:56 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Amen, Denise.  I with you 100%

Faith is indeed a gift from God. Eph. 2:8,9. for example.

The seed that creates new life in man is God's word: Rom. 10:17; The evangel that Paul preached.

Peter says it so well: 1 Peter 1:23, "YOU HAVE BEEN BORN ANEW, NOT OF PERISHABLE BUT OF IMPERISHABLE SEED, THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING WORD OF GOD. NRSV

And God speaking through Isaiah says:
In Isaiah 45:22-24, "TURN TO ME AND BE SAVED, ALL YOU ENDS OF THE EARTH; FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.  BY MYSELF I HAVE SWORN, MY MOUTH HAS UTTERED IN ALL INTEGRITY A WORD THAT WILL NOT BE REVOKED:
BEFORE ME EVERY KNEE WILL BOW; BY ME EVERY TOUGUE WILL SWEAR.  THEY WILL SAY OF ME, 'IN THE LORD ALONE ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRENGTH.'  ALL WHO HAVE RAGED AGAINST HIM WILL COME TO HIM AND BE PUT TO SHAME."

And this will happen as we read in 55:11:
"SO IS MY WORD THAT GOES OUT FROM MY MOUTH:  IT WILL NOT RETURN TO ME EMPTY, BUT WILL ACCOMPLISH WHAT I DESIRE."

God bless,  Arnold
JesusChristPose
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220 posted 08-10-2005 08:21 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"But I'm not finding the promise of free will in the Bible, especially as it relates to salvation. It seems to be presented as God's choice in election of those being saved, and the positive response of faith evidenced in them is also from the hand of God, a gift."

~ When I studied the Bible, this is what I couldn't understand as compared to what mainstream Christianity teaches.

... if God elects or calls people to salvation - one must be called or elected. That there is an election, means there will be others who are not elected or called. They have no choice.

... now, with that in mind, if one is to believe that today is the only day of salvation, God must of predestined many to a hellfire, as they were not to be elected or called or given the gift as mentioned above. Why create those damned people at all? They were not elected.

... So I studied and found in the Bible that today is not the only day of salvation, that God is only calling/electing certain individuals during this age, who will be with the saints, born again upon the 2nd coming, teaching the word of God to all (the majority) of the humankind who were never called - after a ressurection of the body of all who have died and were not saved upon death or born again during Christ's return to earth.

... It is written in Isaiah, I beleive, that all shall worship on the true Sabbath... and no longer will one's brother say to another to worship God, that that job will be the saints job.... and that after Christ's Kingdom is established on earth, then those taught by the born again saints, will have their one and only chance to be saved - which the majority will accept and only the few incorrigle wicked (along those few who had their one and only chance of salvation during their lives), will cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer the Second Death = eternal punishMENT, not punishING.

... as one can see, this view would put out of business today's traditional mainstream churches. And that is why the leaders and their followers would never accept this so-called "heretic" type of view.


"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (08-10-2005 10:36 PM).]

Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


221 posted 08-11-2005 08:49 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi JCP: I'm not sure where you are coming from, but we must "rightly divide the word of truth."  

God today is calling out a people for the Church/Body of Christ.  This message of salvation by faith through grace was given to the apostle Paul; and the doctrines, the trues concerning our standing and state, and our hope to share the glory of God, and co-reign with Christ in the heavenlies, is to be learned only through his letters.

Yes, we, the church/body, are elected, predestined, called, sanctified, and yet to be glorified.  But this is for service, not that the rest of humanity are "lost" for all eternity.  

As for "death".  All of us will die unless the Lord catches us away to the heavens, to meet the dead in Christ who have been resurrected.

The "second death" means just that.  After judging at the great white throne, where God's vengeance and true justice will be given out, those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire where, if they haven't died at the end of their judging before the awesome power and glory of Christ, will die.

God bless,  Bick
JesusChristPose
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since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


222 posted 08-12-2005 08:43 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Hi JCP: I'm not sure where you are coming from, but we must "rightly divide the word of truth."

~ My favorite verses about this matter were, "... Prove all scriptures..." and the one about fitting verses together like a puzzle and that only those truly called will "get it." I would have to look through my old notes for that one, but... not gonna do it.

"Yes, we, the church/body, are elected, predestined, called, sanctified, and yet to be glorified.  But this is for service, not that the rest of humanity are "lost" for all eternity."

~ Now with this being said, maybe some of the mainstream christians on this website won't tell you that you are a heretic, but many many baptists and pentacostals that I knew of - mostly from the deep south - would say that that statement makes you, "Of the devil."

~ And once again, I will say it. Christianity can't even agree with itself. Why? If Christianity is indeed the only way, then it is because of Satan, who deceives the WHOLE world.

"As for "death".  All of us will die unless the Lord catches us away to the heavens, to meet the dead in Christ who have been resurrected."

~ Yes! The bible states that all men will die, and that all men have died (even Enoch and Elijah), but when Christ returns, those who were called and chosen will meet Jesus in the air, but I don't believe the bible states that Christ will do a u-turn. They will be caught with Christ in the air and be with Christ - where ever Christ is - and that will be on earth to set up his Kingdom, you know, the true gospel, "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." I still don't understand how people believe that Christ will do a u-turn when he descends from heaven to establish his kingdom.

"The "second death" means just that.  After judging at the great white throne, where God's vengeance and true justice will be given out, those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire where, if they haven't died at the end of their judging before the awesome power and glory of Christ, will die."

~ For sure. Most people were never called during their life times, which includes: people whom simply never heard of Christ, people who heard of him, but couldn't believe because they were not called, retarded people and others with mental impediments, people who died at a young age, etc., will be raised from the dead in their fleshly bodies (Ezekial's vision Valley of the Bones - and yes, I know of the mainstream interpretation, but I don't believe it) - and then, those called today, who became born again at Christ's second coming, and all the dead in Christ who were raised from the dead - they will teach these fleshly people, and no longer (as quoted in Isaiah, I believe) will one's brother teach and show the way to his brother, but the saints of God.

"God bless,  Bick"

~ I don't know what Bick means, what does that mean? Btw, If I were a Christian, your beliefs match my old ones quite closely, I believe.
  


"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."
Arnold M
Member
since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


223 posted 08-13-2005 11:39 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi JCP. "Bick" is a nick name.  My last name is Bickham.

Of course all Scripture has relevance as 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us.  But not all scripture is to be applied for doctrines of the church/body of Christ.  Those truths only come through the epistles of Paul, our Apostle.

The future destination of the church/body is in the heavenlies, enjoying the spiritual blessings prepared.  In Ephesians we read that we are joint-heirs with Christ, and we will be witnessing to the spirit beings in the celestials, the manifold wisdom and grace of God.  We have nothing to do with the "kingdom of the heavens" on earth.  That will be the Messianic reign with Israel as head of the nations.

So, study Paul's letters.  The church/body is being called out during this era.  We are not to co-reign with Israel.

God bless.  Bick
JesusChristPose
Senior Member
since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


224 posted 08-14-2005 12:43 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"But not all scripture is to be applied for doctrines of the church/body of Christ.  Those truths only come through the epistles of Paul, our Apostle."

1. Paul is the only apostle?
2. Why wouldn't OT doctrine be applied to the Church today? Is there division within the Church? Aren't all saved Christians children of Abraham, an Israelite?

"The future destination of the church/body is in the heavenlies, enjoying the spiritual blessings prepared."

~ Where does the Bible say that? It says that when Christ returns, those who are dead will become born again and meet Christ in the air, it doesn't say only gentile or jew? And where does Christ and all of those born again beings go? One has to read the OT to find the answer. That Christ and all of those born again will establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

~ It is funny to me and is what caused me to lose faith in any religion... You read and understand it one way, Stephanos yet another, and countless people in between and outside the standard deviations set by mainstream christianity. No wonder I no longer believe in this stuff.

"In Ephesians we read that we are joint-heirs with Christ, and we will be witnessing to the spirit beings in the celestials, the manifold wisdom and grace of God.  We have nothing to do with the "kingdom of the heavens" on earth."

~ Where does it say that in the Bible?

"That will be the Messianic reign with Israel as head of the nations."

~ Saved people, Christians, how can one separate the Church? Christians are spiritually children of Abraham, an Israelite.

"So, study Paul's letters.  The church/body is being called out during this era.  We are not to co-reign with Israel."

~ I have studied it. So have many others and do not agree with you. So, whose truth is the real truth - yours, mine, or anybody else's?

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

 
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