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Passions in Poetry

Universal Reconciliation

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JesusChristPose
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175 posted 07-23-2005 11:34 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"As long as there is one original speaker, there will always be one truth.  

It's really that simple. LOL."


~ Oh, and you heard this original speaker? No one I know of ever heard this original speaker.

~ Men recorded the words, that one hears... you read the words recorded by men... hardly hearing the one and only original speaker.

Well, I believe some people claimed to have heard the original speaker... Charles Manson, I believe was on of those whom claimed to have done so.

LOL



"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."
JesusChristPose
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176 posted 07-23-2005 11:40 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Besides, many men claim that they know and heard the words of an original speaker.

Seems to be a disagreement on which one of those original speakers is the actual original speaker.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Essorant
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177 posted 07-24-2005 12:11 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do you remember Ron's opinion about derision?

Here is a reminder:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum8/HTML/000471.html
Essorant
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178 posted 07-24-2005 12:57 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The problem I have with JCP's words is not his questions or statements; but the seeming lack of direction he is so far showing.  What is the aim thro the questions and statements?  What is the pursuit?  Many men already feel uncertain and confused about things in the bible, including me.  Specifying where the uncertainty is may be helpful if you wish to enlighten and clear up that uncertainty.  But so far all he seems to be doing is thickening negative feelings, and expressing only things that we should be uncertain about, without helping make a path out of that uncertainty.  
What can we do with more uncertainty, if we can't get any help out of it?  
JesusChristPose
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179 posted 07-24-2005 01:49 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Ess,

I don't want to argue with you, but I am compelled to tell you that I have no idea why you would remind me of what Ron thinks about derision. I have not attempted to ridicule any person in this thread. In fact, if a case of derision could be made, it could be made against another participator of this subject matter.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

JesusChristPose
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180 posted 07-24-2005 01:58 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

First, let me say I don't have a problem with any person's replies regarding this subject. I think it has been discussed in an open and honest manner of which civility has prevailed.

"The problem I have with JCP's words is not his questions or statements; but the seeming lack of direction he is so far showing.  What is the aim thro the questions and statements?"

~ Seriously, I don't understant why that should be a problem for you. I don't know of any rules in the philsophical folder which delineates that a direction has to be followed.  What is the aim? That all religions may come from a Creator. That man cannot judge his fellow man because he doesn't happen to agree with the other's beliefs in a Creator...  and most importantly...

That if all humankind could quit thinking that their belief in God is the only true belief, we would all, as a human race, be much better off.

"... But so far all he seems to be doing is thickening negative feelings, and expressing only things that we should be uncertain about, without helping make a path out of that uncertainty."

~ In your opinion, of course. Others may not feel that way.  

"What can we do with more uncertainty, if we can't get any help out of it?"

~ Well, if it causes you to think, that could be a good thing. If you feel uncertain, then it is within yourself you feel the uncertainty. I would bet Stephanos and others don't feel uncertain about what I am writing.  



"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."
Essorant
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181 posted 07-24-2005 08:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"I have not attempted to ridicule any person in this thread"

No; but you made a rude suggestion about a personal belief.

You could refer to a saint, a religious authority, or any true believer as a representive of people that claim to hear and believe in hearing God, but instead you referred to a murderer behind jail for his life and then laughed about it?  I think that  was outrightly disturbing and derisive.  

That is why I posted that link.  Better discretion should avoid comments like that in the context of something as personal as a religious belief.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-24-2005 08:57 PM).]

JesusChristPose
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182 posted 07-24-2005 08:56 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Then I submit to you that you misunderstood the context in which "Charlie Manson" was used.

The reference to Mr. Manson was to illustrate the fact that many human beings, even an abhorrent creature such as Manson, can claim to hear the original speaker. The original speaker was never singled out as the christian deity or any other religious deity for that matter.

And, I might add, if you plan on policing this folder for derisiveness, don't single me out, please... because there have been other instances on here which could be misconstrued as derisiveness too.

Thank you.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Essorant
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183 posted 07-24-2005 09:13 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


You never specified that the first time around.  That makes much more sense.  
Essorant
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184 posted 07-24-2005 09:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"The original speaker was never singled out as the christian deity or any other religious deity for that matter."


Well there may only be one original speaker so how can you or any one else be referring to any other?  
Arnold M
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185 posted 07-24-2005 09:48 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

JCP: quote"
1. "Satan deceives the whole world." Rev. 12:9  I really can't figure out how to interpret this any other way, except that in Revelations, it is revealed, that Satan deceives the entire world. I think any Christian could believe that.

Yes, it says Satan is deceiving the whole world.  But, "the whole world" is a generality and cannot include the righteous believers.  As in any biblical subject, or doctrine, there are usually many verses related to it in the bible. For instance:

In 2 Cor.4:3-4, Satan is called "the god of this world (age)"  'And if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.  In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds  of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.' RSV.

And in Eph.2:2-3 "You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this  world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient."  NRSV.  Here, I believe 'the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work' refers to Satan.

So, my conclusion: Satan blinds the minds of those who are unbelieving; and is the spirit behind those who are disobedient.

Question 1 answered.  Arnold
Essorant
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186 posted 07-24-2005 10:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

World < woruld < wer "man" + ieldu "age"
JesusChristPose
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187 posted 07-24-2005 10:05 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Answered, but not refuted.

Satan deceives the whole world... including the non-believers, and of those who worship the false Christ - who are actually non-believers too... "in vain do they worship me believing in doctrines of men" as Satan appears as "a minister of righteousness."

Christ called his flock "little" and persecuted and "not of this world."

Question one answered, but not refuted.

"So, my conclusion: Satan blinds the minds of those who are unbelieving; and is the spirit behind those who are disobedient."

~ I agree, but that also includes those who worship in vain because they are not being called at this time. They are of this world and worship the false christ based on doctrines of men. This is how Satan deceives the entire world, but not the true "little flock" who have been called.




"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."
Essorant
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188 posted 07-24-2005 10:46 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Christ called his flock "little"

"...This is how Satan deceives the entire world, but not the true "little flock" who have been called."


Surely you know the difference between past tense and present tense?  
The flock was "little" back then.  That doesn't mean it is that today.  God knows it is grown much more than "little"
JesusChristPose
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189 posted 07-24-2005 11:03 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

sound a little hostile to me... insinuating I don't know the difference between past and present tense - see how one can take a reply and find it to be derisive - if they allow subjective feelings to dictate the thought process?  

That statement by Christ holds today. Logic would dictate, not to mention how prophecy  and the words of Christ, works in the Bible, that if the flock was little then it will be little now. Why? Because Satan deceived the entire world then just as he deceives the entire world now... leaving Christ's truly called - a little flock - persecuted and not of the world.




"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."
Essorant
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190 posted 07-24-2005 11:46 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"sound a little hostile to me... insinuating I don't know the difference between past and present tense - see how one can take a reply and find it to be derisive - if they allow subjective feelings to dictate the thought process?"

True    Sorry for mistaking you earlier.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-25-2005 12:44 AM).]

Essorant
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191 posted 07-24-2005 11:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"That statement by Christ holds today. Logic would dictate, not to mention how prophecy  and the words of Christ, works in the Bible, that if the flock was little then it will be little now. Why? Because Satan deceived the entire world then just as he deceives the entire world now... leaving Christ's truly called - a little flock - persecuted and not of the world."

But how is that supported by the bible and by the rest of history?


[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-25-2005 12:05 AM).]

Arnold M
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192 posted 07-25-2005 01:45 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

JCP: What do you think should be refuted?  Satan is the adversary created for the purpose of deceiving.  Satan is said to have the power of death, but through Christ's death, he will be destroyed. Heb.2:15

So, Satan the great deceiver, the father of lies, who has been sinning from the beginning
will be defeated and all his works destroyed:
"The son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
1 John 3:8, NRSV.

You keep quoting "little flock", Jesus words.
Those words don't apply today.  Jesus earthly ministry was first and foremost to minister to His own people, Israel. Jn.1:11.
Their hope was the Messianic kingdom, and He and His disciples preached the gospel of the kingdom which practically all Israel and their leaders refused to believe. When He sent out the twelve disciples, He said, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaratans but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt.10:5,6 NRSV.
The number of true disciples during Jesus ministry was small.  He used the words "little flock."  It has nothing to do with the rest of the world.

As to His ministry, He preached moral trues which are principles to be followed from Adam on. Such as: faith in God, hope, love, forgiveness, humility, etc.

He became the Saviour of the world only after His death, burial and resurrection.

God bless,  Arnold
jbouder
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193 posted 07-25-2005 02:02 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

I didn't realize you were JCP, and allowed myself to get baited into what seems to becoming another pointless debate.  Nevertheless, I have a few points to make regarding your earlier post:

quote:
Does not Paul talk much about the Church already becoming divided during biblical times? And did not Paul warn about these divisions among the Church and actually state that the Spirit and those who have received the Spirit should all be in agreement?


I think the point Paul made was that we are all of Christ, and should not align ourselves with Cephas or Paul at the expense of enjoying a larger Christian fellowship around the Ministry of Reconciliation.  In that much, I believe Stephen, Arnold, and I are all at one and the same place, regardless of whether we call ourselves Dispensationalists, Evangelicals, or Reformed.

quote:
I believe he goes on to say that it is the work of the devil that divides the Church.


True, the devil creates schisms.  But I submit that differences on issues that are not of salvific significance is not schism.

quote:
From my readings of the Bible, which I read and asked questions from preachers, priests, holy men from all walks of the Christianity faith... my conclusion was that it was the devil and that the greatest deceit of all-time... a false spirit - a false Jesus - religions preaching a "different Jesus" as the Bible states...


I think your destination was predetermined.  Certainly, if the writings of Paul were tampered with, altering the meaning of such important Christian concepts as justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, then certainly we are all serving a "different Jesus" and are lost.  But the bibliographic and textual evidence overwhelmingly supports the consistency of the written record we have today - the burden is yours to establish which letters and books are fraudulent and which are reliable.

In summary, I believe it is exceedingly difficult to arive at a theology of salvation different from that of the majority of Christian traditions that (1)  sees salvation as being a free gift, bought by God, because of the man's total inability to redeem himself and (2) sees good works as being expressions of gratitude for God's action on our behalf.  Quibbling over little details (as you seem to be doing by asserting that all Christians should believe absolutely the same thing about everything) actually leads to division.

quote:
But Jim, the problem with that statement is that it is inherent for Christians to judge others. If one is not a born again christian and that person dies, what does a christian of your faith have to say about that person who died? The answer is that person is going to hell because that person was never saved - that is judging.


If Scripture pronounces such a judgment, then it must be true - and that makes it God's judgment, not mine.  I, on the other hand, can make certain judgments, such criticising your continued use of proof-texting as a substitute for sound interpreting practices.

Jim
JesusChristPose
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194 posted 07-25-2005 09:13 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

LOL ~ the new and improved version, JCP, is going to bow out of this. It is futile to argue opinion... If you are secure in your beliefs, fine. I know I am. And I know I have nothing to fear at my death. And I also know I will never tell another human that there is only one way to do the lord's will.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Arnold M
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195 posted 07-25-2005 09:28 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Excellent, Jim. I agree whole heartedly with your latest post.

JCP, I'm not sure what you are looking for.

For question 1, you wanted an answer. I agreed that Satan is the great deceiver. What is there to refute?

Arnold
Arnold M
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196 posted 07-29-2005 01:36 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

JCP: If you read this, I was serious when I suggested you could contact me through my email, given above.  Is that acceptable?

Stephan: Picking up on our thread: I'm still having trouble assuming it was Samuel (his spirit?), (his soul?) that was "brought up", in light of the many, many scriptures that say the soul can dies (the person dies); and the breath of life returns to God who gave it.  The writer of the account only knows about it because, I assume, Saul, or one of his men who were told about it, related it to whoever wrote 1 Samuel.

But,in any case, God was behind it. And, to me, this account, and the vision of Moses and Elijah account cannot disannul all that is set forth that the dead are not alive in some other body.   The cure for death is resurrection.

Arnold
Denise
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197 posted 07-31-2005 09:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The concept of eternal punishing, tormenting without end, either physical or spiritual, whether confined to one human being, or a few human beings, or to the vast majority created in His image since time began, is an affront to my sense of morality, my understanding of justice, and my conscience, instilled in me by Him.

Can the ultimate price, already paid by Christ "for the sin of the world", be demanded again from the sinner?

Can temporal sin demand an eternal punishing? If so, shouldn't Christ still be suffering?

Can punishing with no other goal than continual unending torture be considered anything other than cruel, baseless and immoral, and unworthy of the holiness of God?

Can we call "good" in God what we would call the greatest of evils if done by man, or allowed by man? Can God's definition of good and evil and justice be so vastly different than the definitions that He has implanted in our own hearts, and upon which we base our own human justice systems, where the higher goal is remedial, or redemptive, in nature?

Can the God who commands that we love our enemies and do good to those who despitefully use us in this temporal world one day change the rules and either eternally torment His enemies, or allow them to be tormented unendingly?

Will sin and evil co-exist for all eternity with God's righteousness and peace? Or will "sin and death be swallowed up in victory"?

Are sin, Satan, and man's will stronger than the grace of God? Or will God and His grace eventually prevail over all? Will the God who "shuts up all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all", actually extend that mercy to all?

I know what my heart and my conscience tell me, and a literal translation of God's words, unadulterated with the doctrines, creeds, and traditions of men, confirms what they tell me.


JesusChristPose
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198 posted 07-31-2005 10:08 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Denise,

I was momentarily left speechless upon reading your reply.

To argue with your words, is to argue solely with a closed and subjective mind.

To argue with your words, is to argue because one's mind has been blinded.

To argue with your words, is to argue for a Creator whom would never be in my heart and mind.

In other words... I believe what you have replied is, at least, my truth as it is yours.



"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Ron
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199 posted 08-01-2005 10:40 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

What becomes of free will, Denise?

 
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