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Ron
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150 posted 07-17-2005 06:42 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... than the interpretations provided by others participating in this discussion.

Ya know, one might "almost" see an insult wedged in there. Kinda makes one wonder if those kinds of comparisons are really necessary?

quote:
Many of his questions went unanswered or when answered, were answered with opinion without biblical support to back those opinions up.


quote:
If indeed the Christian God is "the" God... There is no doubt in my mind, God is not trying to save the world now... and that the overwhelming majority of the human race will be saved, while the minority incorrigibly wicked will burn up in the lake of fire, forever dead = the 2nd death = Everlasting and eternal punishment not punishING.


Your condemnation seems to be rather closely followed by imitation?

My experience has been that any time someone feels to the need to say "there is no doubt in my mind," it typically means they lack compelling evidence and hope they can get away with authoritative rhetoric.

JesusChristPose
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151 posted 07-17-2005 07:22 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Nah... I have been down both roads before and have studied the interpretation issues presented here from either perspectives presented on this thread.

The bait may have been put on the hook, but I am not biting... afterall, I've been down that road on this site many times

I'll stand by the props I have given to Arnold. IMO, he kicked butt on this thread, period.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Arnold M
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152 posted 07-17-2005 09:34 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Ron, who were you quoting?

JesusChristPose: what do you mean "Arnold...he kicked butt on this thread"?

My contribution is not to "kick butt", but to to arrive at the truth? by this kkind of discussion based on the Scriptures.

Arnold
Alicat
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153 posted 07-17-2005 09:38 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Ron was quoting from JCP's prior response.
JesusChristPose
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154 posted 07-17-2005 09:54 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"My contribution is not to "kick butt", but to to arrive at the truth? by this kkind of discussion based on the Scriptures."

~ "Kick butt" was intended to be equivalent to what I posted in the previous reply. Maybe it was a poor phrase to re-describe my original intent on how this search for truth has panned out.

~ But let me ask you... do you think the arrival at the truth will be the same truth for both yourself and those who disagree with you? Do you think you can change the minds of those who disagree with and of course vice versa?

~ It appears you have a truth and so do the other participants - and it all comes down to how one interprets the scriptures, which of course is going to based on one's upbringing and how his or her mind has been shaped through a particular culture and of course, learning experiences.

~ I have said it before and I'll say it again - even if Jesus came down here today and spoke a different interpretation of the Bible other than one or another denomination believes... Christ would be branded a heretic.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Arnold M
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155 posted 07-19-2005 01:41 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

JesusChristpPose:  To answer your questions:

No. If someone disagrees with my understanding of some "truth", obviously we don't believe the same.

As for me changing their mind, I would not be the one.  It would have to be the result of studying the Scriptures as an unashamed workman, rightly dividing the word of truth.

How one interprets the Scriptures is, unfortunately, very much affected by pre conceived views and doctrines.  To unlearn what we have heard is true, say, from our past, is probably the hardest thing.

I know of dear Christian folks that believe only the King James Version is divinely inspired, and refuse to hear any other. They wouldn't think of using a concordance to find that some word in the KJV really means something else in the originals.

My goal on this link, is hopefully, to encourage others to see that the God of the universe, the all powerful, all loving creator: out of Him and through Him and for Him are all things; to Him be glory for the ages (Rom. 11:36), through Christ, will reconcile all things to Himself whether on earth on in heaven (Col.1:19,20).

God bless,  Arnold
JesusChristPose
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156 posted 07-19-2005 08:52 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"No. If someone disagrees with my understanding of some "truth", obviously we don't believe the same."

~ But then who is telling the truth? Yourself and Stephanos, for example... which one of you is telling the truth when interpreting all of those biblical passages?

~ Would not a Creator understand that with the so many different upbringings, the cultures, the societies, the shaping of minds by others, everything we learn, that there could never be one truth for all of mankind when it comes to biblical/religious matters?

"As for me changing their mind, I would not be the one.  It would have to be the result of studying the Scriptures as an unashamed workman, rightly dividing the word of truth."

~ But others have and are studying the Scriptures as unashamed workmen, and they also, like you, have came to a conclusion, but to another one.

"How one interprets the Scriptures is, unfortunately, very much affected by pre conceived views and doctrines.  To unlearn what we have heard is true, say, from our past, is probably the hardest thing."

~ I completely agree with that statement. So, have you unlearned your past?

"I know of dear Christian folks that believe only the King James Version is divinely inspired, and refuse to hear any other. They wouldn't think of using a concordance to find that some word in the KJV really means something else in the originals."

~ Are they then truly Christian folk? Do they believe in a false Christ - unknowingly, of course?

"My goal on this link, is hopefully, to encourage others to see that the God of the universe, the all powerful, all loving creator: out of Him and through Him and for Him are all things; to Him be glory for the ages (Rom. 11:36), through Christ, will reconcile all things to Himself whether on earth on in heaven (Col.1:19,20)."

~ That is noble, but on the debating side with the few on this thread, they believe that above statement too, so I don't see what good it is doing you to debate the interpretations with them. They won't change their opinions. And if you think about it, if there is only one true God, one true Holy Spirit, and knowing that their is the evil spirit that can duplicate the Holy Spirit - one interpretation must be true and all of the others... of the devil.

Rev 12:9

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

jbouder
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157 posted 07-20-2005 10:37 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
And if you think about it, if there is only one true God, one true Holy Spirit, and knowing that their is the evil spirit that can duplicate the Holy Spirit - one interpretation must be true and all of the others... of the devil.


Yes and no.  I would argue that certain doctrines are central to Christian orthodoxy (such as the vicarious atonement, the Resurrection, monotheism, the Trinity) and any divergence from such core teachings should rightly be regarded as error.

There are other teachings and traditions that are matters of interpretation, but not central to Christian teaching and tradition.  Baptism by emersion or sprinkling, of adults or of infants, or whether the Communion drink should be wine or grape juice, are secondary and, although one version may be a best interpretation of available Scriptures on the subject, there is sufficient ambiguity to warrant more than one interpretation.

I think it is important to remember that God revealed what we needed to know through Scripture.  Those things that are of lesser importance seem to leave it to the believer to decide how they practice their Christianity.  In such circumstances, I think regarding one interpretation of secondary matters of belief as "godly" and all others "of the devil" is unwarranted and incorrect.

Jim
Arnold M
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158 posted 07-20-2005 07:33 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Amen, Jim.

Arnold
JesusChristPose
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159 posted 07-20-2005 07:58 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Well, I was hoping Arnold M would of answered the questions I asked, since they were directed towards him...

So do both yourself and Arnold believe in a ressurection or does one of you believe in an immediate soul departure to heaven upon death?

Do you both believe in a trinity?

And why would the same Holy Spirit of God reveal different truths to either of you or anyone in any other denomination, if it is the same Holy Spirit?

... now onto the bigger picture...

"I think it is important to remember that God revealed what we needed to know through Scripture."

~ And therein lies the problem, Jim. Christianity believes that the one and only God has revealed to them the one and only truth, yet many other people of many other faiths believe the same - that God revealed to them the one and only truth... and all one can go by is how he or she, a human being, interprets words written by men thousans of years ago.

~ As an agnostic, in my mind, from my studies, I could never believe that a Creator would do that. You could call me a person who is to suffer forever in a hellfire or whatever, but I'll tell you this, Jim...

I won't judge you. And don't give me the story about a righteous judgment, I am not buying that. You or any other person of any faith are not God. You think in your mind and heart you know what is the will of God - and that is fine by me - but you are only a human being, just the same as me, and I prayed and studied the same word as you did - and at no fault to my own, I came to another conclusion.

It is really that simple.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Ron
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160 posted 07-20-2005 08:48 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I was nine years older than my nearest sibling, Mike. You'd be amazed at what my father told me that he didn't tell them. My nearest sibling happened to be a sister. I was not at all surprised to learn, later in life, that he told her things he didn't think I would ever need to know.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to accept the limitations you want to impose on omniscience. As long as there is more than one listener, there will always be more than one Truth.


It's really that simple. LOL.
JesusChristPose
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161 posted 07-20-2005 09:09 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

~ Actually, Ron... I agree with you. Read my last reply, the bottom part. That is why I can't accept any one religion as the only way. In my humble opinion, the Creator would have to know that, especially if He or She is going to condemn human beings for eternity just because they didn't believe in one way.

~ And I'll go onto say, it is selfish to judge others as heretics for not believing in what your mind has come to accept as truth.

Thanks, Ron. I mean that.

Ron
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162 posted 07-20-2005 10:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

We're essentially in agreement, Mike. Except I think it's perfectly fine to judge others as heretics. I just don't consider heresy to be such a bad thing.
JesusChristPose
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163 posted 07-20-2005 10:38 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

LOL! Really. Too good.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Arnold M
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164 posted 07-22-2005 03:02 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

J.C. Pose:  You say you wanted me to answer your questions. I'm not as prosaic as, say Ron or Stephen, but I'll do the best I can.
I cannot change anyone's mind or view.  It has to be through their study and understanding of what God has revealed in the scriptures.  

As our Creator, I'm sure God understands all the variances of human society that you mention.  Then add to it, all the languages, and the difficulty of translating.

Jim answers this question so well.  Again I say, Amen.

Yes. it's true, that many diligently study the Word and arrive at different conclusions.
I have experienced this, and most of the time we disagree agreeably.

As for unlearning my past, I certainly have had to.  Of course, not the basic trues of salvation through faith in the shed blood of Christ and His resurrection.

Do those who only would use the KJV believe in a false Christ? Of course not!  They are truly Christian folk. The KJV has been the authorized version for centuries and it's phrases and expressions are much loved.

As to why this debate is proceding, look at the name of this thread.  Yes, we are warned to test the spirits to see if they are of God.  In 1 John 4 we read that every spirit that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

I'm not sure what interpretation you are referring to, but I would disagree that the "true" one is of God, and the "false" one is of the devil.

For instance: look at the positions on the Millennium.  There is pre-millennium, post-millennium, a-millenium, etc.  One is true, but all others are of the devil?  Of course not!

Must go for now.  Arnold


jbouder
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165 posted 07-22-2005 11:55 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

JCP:

To answer your question as simply as possible regarding what I believe, I am a Christian with a theological preference for Lutheran and Augustinian Pauline theology.  The Augsburg Confession more or less sums up what I believe (although I do take issue with a few minor points).  If you google "Augsburg Confession" you should be able to find it.

quote:
And why would the same Holy Spirit of God reveal different truths to either of you or anyone in any other denomination, if it is the same Holy Spirit?


Who said anything about the Holy Spirit revealing different truths?  God doesn't screw up the interpretation of God's revelation - man does.

quote:
"I think it is important to remember that God revealed what we needed to know through Scripture.

~ And therein lies the problem, Jim. Christianity believes that the one and only God has revealed to them the one and only truth, yet many other people of many other faiths believe the same - that God revealed to them the one and only truth... and all one can go by is how he or she, a human being, interprets words written by men thousans of years ago.


Just because all world religions believe their particular faith is God's revelation to man does not put all religions on a level playing field.  I'd have a serious problem with Christianity if it wasn't rooted in historical fact (an admitted weakness of mine).  Too often people ask the find the answer in religion to only one of two important questions - (1) Where do I go to find answers to life's questions? - but forget to ask the followup question - (2) How reliable are my sources?

And I'm not going to "judge" you.  It is not my place to do so.  If anything, I empathize with your doubt.  But I will encourage you to continue asking questions - tough questions - until you're satisfied with the answer.  My encounter with faith is a little different from others in that it was preserved by my discovery of firm, historic foundation on which my faith was grounded.  Otherwise, I'd probably be an agnostic like you.

And both Arnold and Stephen are sharp, thinking Christians. (Denise, you are too).  Although we disagree on some points (geeze, I must be the only amillenialist in the forum), we recognize what is most important and agree on those points.

Jim
JesusChristPose
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166 posted 07-22-2005 08:28 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Does not Paul talk much about the Church already becoming divided during biblical times?

And did not Paul warn about these divisions among the Church and actually state that the Spirit and those who have received the Spirit should all be in agreement?

I believe he goes on to say that it is the work of the devil that divides the Church.

From my readings of the Bible, which I read and asked questions from preachers, priests, holy men from all walks of the Christianity faith... my conclusion was that it was the devil and that the greatest deceit of all-time... a false spirit - a false Jesus - religions preaching a "different Jesus" as the Bible states...

I have come full circle and then some...

There were certain passages of the Bible that I couldn't ignor and truly believed that they could not be misinterpreted. They were (I don't have where they actually are, but it doesn't matter, I know they are in there):

1. "Satan deceives the whole world."  I don't know how any person could interpret this any different than Satan deceives the whole world - too simple.

2. Christ calls his true flock "... a little flock."

~ Now if Satan deceives the entire world and Christ's flock is little, then the followers of Christ must not equal that many at all - far from the millions of practicing christians throughout the world.

3. Christ warned that many would call his name and believe upon him, but he will ignore them. "In vain do they worship me, believing in doctrines of men."

~ Quite clear that of the entire world that Satan deceives, many of those are practicing christians, worshipping Him in vain.

4. Christ, I believe, says that Satan will "... appear as a minister of rightuousness..."

~ A false Christ of which Satan gets to deceive the vast majority of the christian world, not to mention all other religions (mind you, I am speaking as if the bible is the only true word of God).

~ Take all of these passages together - it is like fitting together a jigsaw puzzle... the pieces do fit.

However, how can Satan deceive the entire world through a false Christ?

There would have to be sin.

Sin is the breaking of the laws of God.

Of the 10 commandments, which one would practicing christians commit without realizing since they are deceived by a false christ through satan?

Now, if a Creator is going to punish me forever because in my mind, after coming to my knees and begging and praying for understanding - completely humbled - this was the way my mind interpreted the bible and it is wrong - then I would say, "to hell with the Creator, and if I had to stand in judgment, bring it on."

"And I'm not going to "judge" you.  It is not my place to do so.  If anything, I empathize with your doubt."

~ But Jim, the problem with that statement is that it is inherent for Christians to judge others. If one is not a born again christian and that person dies, what does a christian of your faith have to say about that person who died? The answer is that person is going to hell because that person was never saved - that is judging.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Stephanos
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167 posted 07-22-2005 09:09 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Opeth,


I thought I had met your twin, until I looked under your profile and saw it was you.  


You've turned over a new leaf.
But as the controversy picks up, I recognize it's from the same tree.




Stephen.

JesusChristPose
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168 posted 07-23-2005 12:23 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I never hid from the fact. I have nothing to hide. I merely appreciate Arnold's views on Christianity. His views were much like mine were. And for the record, your views were much like mine were before they were like Arnolds.

The bottom line is not one person, not one group, not one book, not one anything has the corner on what God is what God expects of the humankind.

That, I am sure of, just as you are sure of your beliefs.



"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Arnold M
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169 posted 07-23-2005 03:23 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

JCP: The Sovereign God of the universe, is in control. There may be many things that are hard to understand in this world; views or doctrines that are being debated; traditions that are believed as much as scripture; and a spiritual adversary (Satan) who seems to be the victor; but Paul assures us that "from Him and through Him and for Him are all things." Rom.11:36 RSV. God is in control. Good is going to triumph over evil.

So I appeal to you, JCP, put your whole heart and faith in the good news, the gospel, "that Christ died for our sins, in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures..."
1 Cor.15:3,4.  And, I feel many of your questions will seem minor.

The Bible is a written revelation of God's redemption of Adam's race.  It is a progressive revelation, revealing more and more of God's plans, from Genesis through Malachi, in the OT, and from the Gospels to Revelation in the NT.

During man's history, his duties and responsibilities to God changed from time to time, or era to era. These eras could be called "Administrations" or "Dispensations."

To me, the most important thing to understand today, is that believers in Christ are His church-body.  That Paul is the apostle to the gentiles; his epistles are the last word for the church-body, enlightening us as to our walk, our hopes, our future in the heavenlies with Christ.
Mysteries were revealed to Paul which were not revealed to the other writers of the NT.

The church-body is not perfect and yes, Paul wrote appealing for unity of the spirit in the bonds of love.  Practically all his letters were instructions in doctrine and deportment.  And, I would say that Satan, the devil is behind controversial doctrines that split churches.  In Paul's time it was the Jewdyizers? who were the most disruptive.

God bless you. All for now, Arnold
JesusChristPose
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170 posted 07-23-2005 06:02 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I hear what you are saying, Arnold... but still, not one person has taken the biblical information I put together and dismantled it.

In other words, how I came to my conclusion is irrefutable. One can disagree, but one can't say how I came to and the conclusion I arrived at is wrong, except to say that in his or her opinion, my interpretation is wrong...

Hence the problem of interpretation of any so-called god inspired works.

Nope... any true Creator would not of left His only true way that ambiguous - not to mention the billions of people who have lived and died and never had a chance to hear his word, repent, become baptized and then receive the Holy Spirit in order to become a born again saved person of God.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Essorant
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171 posted 07-23-2005 06:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

So be it.  It's nothing new for people to say and give examples of ambiguity they see in the bible.  It is however, something new and impressive when I see someone can propose a way for men to be able to deal with that ambiguity and still appreciate and make the most of what we have with the bible.  All you're giving us is a negative argument, without a positive way to deal with it.   What help are you finding or giving in your pessimism about Christianity and the bible?  
Look at some ancient pagan beliefs of Greeks, Romans, Germanii, etc.  Everyone that is Christian usually has negative things to say about the pagan lores of those folks.  But in the end, those negative sayings are useless.  They don't help anything.  Personally, I just want to be able to appreciate better what we have left from the ages: what we are still holding on to and make the most of them.  Some Christians may never come to admire anything about what we know of Vikings' beliefs because they can't stop wieghing them in such harsh judgement and comparison at every turn with their own religion and conduct.  Well, there are no vikings left to defend and further their misdirected and warlike beliefs and behaviors.  What's the point in hammering what we know of their beliefs to further death?   All we have left is a body of vague things to study and make the most of and try to understand better.  People who only want hammer these things with negativeness make it only the more troubled and difficult for others, and probably for themselves as well.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-23-2005 08:33 PM).]

Arnold M
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172 posted 07-23-2005 08:34 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

JCP: Quote: I hear what you are saying, Arnold... but still, not one person has taken the biblical information I put together and dismantled it.

OK, I'm willing to. Let's take each point, with the scriptures in their context, one by one.

If it gets to be too much for this thread, I'll be happy to converse by email.  My email is ambickham@aol.com  .

Arnold
JesusChristPose
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173 posted 07-23-2005 09:06 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

" OK, I'm willing to. Let's take each point, with the scriptures in their context, one by one."

~ I am game... In context... according to whom? It is opinion not fact when determining what is in context and what is not - granted, not always, but when one wants words to conform to his or her or his or her's church's belief.

I'll start again...

Let's take one at a time...

1. "Satan deceives the whole world." Rev. 12:9  I really can't figure out how to interpret this any other way, except that in Revelations, it is revealed, that Satan deceives the entire world. I think any Christian could believe that.

What say you?

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Stephanos
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174 posted 07-23-2005 11:25 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
As long as there is more than one listener, there will always be more than one Truth.


It's really that simple. LOL.


As long as there is one original speaker, there will always be one truth.  

It's really that simple. LOL.

quote:
I think it's perfectly fine to judge others as heretics. I just don't consider heresy to be such a bad thing.



It's not such a bad thing in its origins ... The word originally meant "to choose".  It had to do with the ability to assess beliefs and to follow accordingly.  But the repeated abuse of such a freedom gave rise to the negative connotations of the word.  One can choose what is wrong, in the eyes of men, which may be of no or little consequence.  But one can also choose what is wrong in the eyes of God.  That distinction seems easy enough right?  What God says is God, and what man says don't sweat.  The only thing is, is that he chose to reveal himself through one man in particular, and through men in general.  


As always Ron, I appreciate your appreciation for human choice.  But I think sometimes you minimize the gravity of an idea such as heresy.  By arbitrarily reinstating the virgin use of the word, you are denying the very reasons why the word acquired such negative baggage in the first place.  And from a Christian view (which you profess) at least some heresies may be damning, and may lead individuals to ruin.

  
Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (07-24-2005 08:45 AM).]

 
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