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Arnold M
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75 posted 09-26-2004 02:19 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen, the quotes above from preachers of eternal damnation were from another book, God's Eonian Purpose by Adlai Loudy, p.339.  I'm assuming they are correct.

You say they are words of bad preaching; medieval style imagery.  My question is how do you know it is bad preaching?  Please tell me what the eternal punishment in a lake of fire and sulfur will be like.  You seem to side with C.S.Lewis. But how does he know?  If it is torment, why couldn't it be like some of those preachers say?

Of course, I'm being factitious. Because to  believe that is true of God is unthinkable.
Arnold M
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76 posted 09-26-2004 02:41 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen, I do believe in the natural parallism of Matt 25:46. "And these shall go away into age-lasting punishment and the righteous into life age-lasting."  Let us remember, these are those "the sheep and the goats" being judged for how they treated Christ' brethren (righteous Jews). They are not all the wicked who have ever lived. They are those who survived the awful woes and plagues of the last three and a half years of "the tribulation".  The righteous will be granted life for the Millennial Age and the unrighteous will be chastened until they are resurrected at the Great White Throne to be judged for their deeds during their whole life.  Bye for now, Arnold
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77 posted 09-26-2004 02:57 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Arnold:  
quote:
In the last sentence, if it said: "Ideal were it for that man if he were not born," then I would say it refers to Judas.



You're presuming that the order of "Him" and "That man" in the sentence really suggests your particular interpretation in the Greek.  But there's nothing inherent in the sentence structure in the original language that would dictate Jesus himself as the subject.  "But" you may say, "There's also nothing that would necessitate Judas either".  You're right.  That's why context will be the deciding factor here.  And I've already explained in some detail why Jesus referring to himself would be a very unnatural and unlikely choice.  I don't really want to repeat myself on that matter.  You can refer to it above if you want to respond to those points.



quote:
You say they are words of bad preaching; medieval style imagery.  My question is how do you know it is bad preaching?
  


I'm not necessarily saying these are examples of bad preaching.  I'm rather conceding the point, that even if they WERE, by quoting such men you're presenting an aesthetic disapproval of certain descriptions rather than presenting arguments against the doctrine itself.  Like criticizing someone's particular painting of a war scene, rather than giving reasons against painting of war in general.  



quote:
Stephen, the quotes above from preachers of eternal damnation were from another book, God's Eonian Purpose by Adlai Loudy, p.339.  I'm assuming they are correct.



I was talking about referencing the quotes themselves:  who said what, in what sermon or book, page number, year, etc ... That way, I could go and look at the surrounding context of those quotes.  There might be some qualifying or mitigating statements surrounding them.  And I think it's just courtesy to cite such quotations, especially if they are intended to critique or chide someone, or a particular viewpoint.  But If you can't find them, or don't want to trouble yourself, that's fine.  


quote:
Please tell me what the eternal punishment in a lake of fire and sulfur will be like.  You seem to side with C.S.Lewis. But how does he know?  If it is torment, why couldn't it be like some of those preachers say?



I don't know what it would be like, apart from scriptural descriptions, and my own imagination.  But I didn't say I "sided" with C.S. Lewis.  Personally I think his descriptions of hell are more terrible than even that of the Medieval artists, or puritanical preachers, because he moves toward a description that is beyond the metaphorical.  However I'm not convinced that one particular description is really more accurate than another.  And I don't think Lewis is setting his description over and against anyone else's.  He's just describing what he sees.


quote:
Of course, I'm being factitious. Because to  believe that is true of God is unthinkable.



But Hell is only a desciption of what God's providence will do with those who ultimately reject himself ... not a description of God himself.  It's not so much a portrait of his face, but of his face turned away.


quote:
Let us remember, these are those "the sheep and the goats" being judged for how they treated Christ' brethren (righteous Jews). They are not all the wicked who have ever lived. They are those who survived the awful woes and plagues of the last three and a half years of "the tribulation".  The righteous will be granted life for the Millennial Age and the unrighteous will be chastened until they are resurrected at the Great White Throne to be judged for their deeds during their whole life.



But Arnold, all this doctrinal detail you give (and are dependent upon for your view) is not at all derived from the text.  Not even hinted.  Again, the Occam's razor of interpretation would suggest that it's much more sensical to take this as reference to the final Judgement of Men according to how they lived their temporal lives, rather than a limited, specific, and unique eschatological circumstance in the far distant future.  Your interpretation requires us to stretch this passage on a procrustean bed, to make it fit.  But there's a lot you're saying that's just absent from the text, and I find no compelling reason to provide it an absentee ballot, because I don't think it's native   .  


Another thing, if the parable meant what you say, it would be irrelevant to those present who actually heard Jesus.   THEY will NEVER be judged as to how they treat the Jews during the millenium, for they were predominately Jews themselves, and died long before the millenial reign of Christ.




Stephen.          
Stephanos
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78 posted 09-26-2004 03:24 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Denise:
quote:
Nonetheless, even if the correct interpretation is the one that you have given, Jesus saying that it would have been better for Judas never to have been born, couldn't that be understood as one of those idioms to express the manner in which Judas was about to die, and not necessarily as implying an eternal torment?

Beyond that Denise, I think Jesus was, in the most matter-of-fact tone, speaking truth.  Would it even be a true statement if Judas were to be unconditionally reconciled to God, and gain Heaven?


How could it refer to only his death, and remain in any sense true?


It seems to me the "manner of his death" (suicide) flowed from this terrible truth that Jesus spoke.  Not vice versa.


Stephen  
Arnold M
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79 posted 09-26-2004 10:12 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen, you are right.  Each of the quotes, to be fair, should be shown in their contexts. Unfortunately, I don't have them.

I don't agree that the account of Christ, the king, sitting upon the throne of his glory, and judging the nations as a shepherd separates sheep from goats, is a parable. The term, "as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats" is a figure of speech. Christ doesn't use "sheep" or "goats" again, but refers to "those" on his left or right, which, from the context are humans.  

The Jews, Christ's brethren, are never called the nations.  It's true, His righteous brethren have been gathered from the ends of the earth, but they are not "the nations."

Perhaps I added my interpretation as to those going into "eternal" chastening, but what else can it mean?  They are living humans who when cast into the fire and brimstone will die.  The alternate is, they don't die, or, as the popular view is, their immortal soul will be tormented, neither of which is scriptual.

So much for now, Arnold
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80 posted 09-28-2004 12:26 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I don't agree that the account of Christ, the king, sitting upon the throne of his glory, and judging the nations as a shepherd separates sheep from goats, is a parable. The term, "as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats" is a figure of speech.


Purely parabolic versus metaphorically descriptive ...

There's really not much difference.  Whether this can be called a "parable" or not, my point remains the same.

quote:
The Jews, Christ's brethren, are never called the nations.  It's true, His righteous brethren have been gathered from the ends of the earth, but they are not "the nations."


Elsewhere Jesus asks the question "Who is my mother, my brother ...?"  The answer had little to do with national/ ethnic descent.  Also the book of Hebrews tells us that he had to be made "like unto his bretheren in every way".

It also makes much more sense, even only looking at the context of this particular scripture to take a more universal definition of "brother".  


Why would Jesus be speaking to Jews, a warning to the non-Jewish "nations"?  What relevance would this hold for his very Jewish audience at the time?  You still haven't answered that.


Also, how do you explain the narrow exclusivity of Jesus' concern for the Jews in the end-times (if this passage refers to treatment of the Jews only), seeing that some of Jesus' most amazing and benevolent acts were to Gentiles?


quote:
The alternate is, they don't die, or, as the popular view is, their immortal soul will be tormented, neither of which is scriptual.



Arnold, "neither of which is scriptural" isn't an argument.  I already know you believe that.  Now is the time to try and explain why.  Because, of course, my assertion is that it IS scriptural.  I will comment on the whole death/ ressurrection issues you brought up soon.  


Stephen  


Arnold M
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81 posted 09-30-2004 01:00 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen, we've discussed different verses and words, and you requested scriptures showing the reconciliation of all.  There are so many. Here are a number, using YLT:

1 Tim. 2:4 "..God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth."

1 Tim. 4:10 "..because we hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men--especially of those believing."  NOTE: it reads "especially" not "exclusively."

John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son to the world that He may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."

John 1:29 "Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world."

1 John 2:2 "..he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for
the whole world."

Rom. 5:18,19 "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."
Adam plus many equals all who are sinners.
Through Christ's obedience the same many will be made righteous.

Rom. 5:20 "Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God's grace is greater than all the sins of all mankind.

2 Cor.5:14 "For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all died."
God sees all humanity dying with Christ.

2 Cor.5:18,19 "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them.."
Imagine, the sin question is settled! As ambassadors for Christ we need to beseech unbelievers to be reconciled to God.

Col.1:19,20 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

Isa.53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

Psa.22:27 "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee."

Isa.45:22,23 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth!  For I am God, and there is no other.  By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear.'"
Swear means confess. To affirm this it is repeated twice in the NT:

Rom.14:11 "..for it is written, 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.'"

Phil.2:9-11 "Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father." Concordant Literal N.T.
This confession to the glory of God could not come from the majority of mankind writhing in some place of torment.
And we read in 1 Cor.12:3 "..no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit."

And when is this time when all (those in the heavens and those on the earth) will be reconciled, and bow the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord? It must be when all enemies are "made a footstool" for Christ, as we read in 1 Cor.15:25-28 "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.  The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 'For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.'"

And this takes place at the consummation (of the eons). Reading 1 Cor.15:20-24 from CLNT: "Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.  For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.  For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.  Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His prescence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."

There can be much more, but I'm tired now.

jbouder
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82 posted 09-30-2004 01:23 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I've been hesitant to involve myself in this thread, chiefly because of the shooting of biblical verses from the hip.  In my experience, being involved in a productive dialogue about salvation requires a mutual willingness to engage in a more mature hermeneutic than finding isolated verses to support one's position.

For example, Arnold, at least half of your citations are from Pauline letters, and many of them from his Epistle to the Romans.  The problem I have with your position is that, if you give Paul a fair reading ... not just in isolated verses, but reading his letters as they were intended to be read - as a complete work ... there really is no way you can claim that Paul shared your opinion regarding Universal Reconciliation.

For example, you cite:

quote:
Rom. 5:18,19 "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."

Rom. 5:20 "Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."


If you go back and read chapters 1-4, I think it is abundantly clear that Paul, here, is setting forth the sufficiency of Christ's atoning death to cover all sins by taking on himself the punishment for all sins - past, present, and future.  Christ was actually righteous, but forensically judged guilty and punished.

We, on the other hand, are actually guilty.  So the question then arises as to how we are made forensically righteous (that is, how is Christ's actual righteousness imputed to us, the actual sinners?).

Paul answers this question for us - by faith.  Without faith, there is no forensic imputation of Christ's righteousness to us and no forensic imputation of our sin to Him on the cross.  Not that Christ's atonement is not sufficient (Paul covers that in the verses you cite), but without faith there is no justification (i.e., being declared just, again in the legal sense), and with no justification, there is no salvation.

I think it is worth noting that by "salvation," we are being saved from something ... is so, what?  We are being saved from God - from his just punishment of us for our transgressing his perfect standard.

You are right to look to Romans for answers on salvation because it, above all the New Testament books and letters, was written with the purpose of instructing Christians in what salvation is and what it isn't.  What it isn't is license to continue sinning with no consequences.  I think your position cheapens salvation, makes faith a virtuous option and nothing more, and dismantles all else Paul has taught us about sin, justification, and judgment.

If you're willing to discuss scripture contextually, I'll be happy to continue to participate.  If not, then I see no point to continued discourse.

Jim
Arnold M
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83 posted 09-30-2004 09:48 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Jim, the reasons I have listed many scriptures is sort of at the request of Stephen, who asked for scriptures rather than discussing short verses or words.
I will be happy to discuss this subject, or others, using all of scripture.  I certainly believe that "A text taken out of context can be a pretext."
It seems that the idea of God reconciling, thus making peace, with all created beings in the universe, means to some that the faithful few who live devoted lives for the Lord, will someday enjoy the blessings of heaven with Christ, but all the unjust do nothing to change but in the end enjoy the same blessings.  Am I right?
Arnold M
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84 posted 09-30-2004 11:56 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Back again. That idea of UR is not what the scriptures teach.  God's Word is, to me, a story of redemption; the redemption of Adam and all the children of Adam, in the proper place and time. I understand that, as I've stated before, that God through Christ makes the ages, Heb.1:2 YLT, which are finite in time, and in this present age is calling out the church which is His body.  We are saved by grace and through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph.2:8. And I understand this to mean that both grace and faith come from God. In Rom.10:17
we read "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."  

And Israel, God's chosen people for the earth.  Will they be "God's People" again?  Of course they will. Paul tells us in Rom.11:25, among others, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.  But, it will be because God causes it to happen!  From Heb.8:8-13, quoting Jer.31:31-34, it is God who makes a new covenant with Israel and Judah (both houses from the divided kingdom), putting His laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts.  They then will believe, and their blessings will be in the kingdom on earth during the coming ages.

In Rom.9 Paul reveals a marvelous truth.  God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. He creates vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour.  It is His plan that the vessels of dishonour (wrath) are fitted for destruction, to show His power and indignation, after patient longsuffering, to make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy.

Is God a God of justice?  Of course. A God of vengeance?  Certainly.  And, the times of the judgements, the time of His wrath is set forth and can be studied and discussed.

To conclude: will the God of infinite love, mercy, power, etc, condemn those, whose hearts are hardened so they don't believe, to an unending, conscious torment?
Arnold M
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85 posted 10-01-2004 06:40 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi everyone. Looking at my last two replies, I see I ended them with a question, so I'll stay off for awhile.  Arnold

Arnold M
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86 posted 10-08-2004 07:45 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen: quote

Why would Jesus be speaking to Jews, a warning to the non-Jewish "nations"?  What relevance would this hold for his very Jewish audience at the time?  You still haven't answered that.

The relevance is He is prophesying of His coming again to establish the millennial kingdom where the righteous Israelites, who suffered so much at the hands of the Anti-Christ and the Gentiles during the great tribulation, will be the head of the nations.
In our passage in question, I see it that Christ is assuring His Jewish brethren that their suffering is not forgotten, not in vain.

Concerning the places where "the Son of man" is coming again, I counted about 17 places.  They have to be taken literally.
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87 posted 10-14-2004 08:46 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Jim, what you pointed out in the early chapters of Romans, that all mankind are sinners, coming short of the glory of God; and that Christ's atoning death is sufficient for all the sins for all mankind, and only through faith are we declared righteous, is certainly true.
And Paul writes that "all men are under the power of sin, none is righteous, no not one, no one understands, no one seeks for God."  Rom.3:9-11 RSV. So, don't the Scriptures teach faith is a gift of God, as I understand Eph. 2:8,9 to mean?
Let us look at the words of Christ prior to His crucifiction in John 12:32 "and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."  

I sincerely believe that apart from faith, it is impossible to please God, but honestly, there are some verses that I don't quite understand.  Maybe you could help.
Rom.2:6-10 says God will give eternal life to those who by patience in well doing, that is, according to their works, seek for immortality.  Faith is not mentioned.

Also, in Matt.25, the account of the Son of Man coming in power with all the angels, at the end of the age, which, as I understand it, would be the beginning of the millenial kingdom on earth. There He separates the nations and those who treated His brethren with compassion, inherit the kingdom, etc. My question is, is their millenial life based only on their deeds?
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88 posted 10-15-2004 10:30 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Arnold,

Don't you think that the answer is in the book of James?


It's not faith or works,

but a faith that works which saves.


And if we take that to be true, then the verse you mentioned in Romans is not really at odds with faith.  


Stephen.    
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89 posted 10-16-2004 12:43 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Stephen:
Yes, James says show me your good deeds and I'll see your faith, or words to that effect.
That surely is the answer to such scriptures,
for the good deeds described are not for their own self righteousness.

Thanks,  Arnold
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90 posted 12-09-2004 01:44 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

It seems to me that from the Bible perspective, two subjects are so vital to our understanding:  The ages or eons; and death.  The meaning of eon and eonian have been discussed somewhat, so using as accurate
or literal translations as possible, let us proceed with the subject of "death". There are so many verses on this subject that for sake of brevity only certain ones will be fully quoted.

Starting in Genesis 2:16,17, using Young's Literal Translation: "And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die'".  As we know Adam and Eve didn't die that day, but the dying process started and Adam died at 930 years.  The serpent, or Satan, the devil,
"is a liar...and the father of lies" John 8:44 RSV, said to Eve, "dying ye do not die",
and that lie is believed by much of the world today.
Death is said to be a return:
After the fall, God said to Adam "In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust and to dust you shall return". Gen.3:19, RSV.  Other passages
which speak of death as a return are:"Remem-
ber I pray you that as clay you did make me, and unto dust you will cause me to return" Job 10:9.  See also Job 1:20-22; 30:22,23; 34:12-15. "you cause man to return unto dust,
and have said--return you sons of Adam" Psa.
90:3, and others.
God forms the spirit of man in him, "The Lord
who streched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him", Zech.12:1. And in Eccl.12:7 speaking of man's dying, we read "..and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
The soul, man's being is said to go to the unseen: Psa.16:10 "For Thou dost not leave my
soul to Sheol.." and Acts 2:27 "Thou will not abandon my soul to Hades.."  
This doesn't mean the "soul" is separate and alive somewhere. There are many scriptures that say the soul can die or be destroyed:
Lev.19:28; 21:1; 24:17,18; Num.23:10; 31:19;
Josh.2:13; Judg.16:30; Job 36:14; Psa.22:30; 33:18; 78:50; 116:8; Ezek.13:19; 22:27; Lev.
23:30; Acts 3:23 and others. This can be true for "man" and "soul" are practically synonymous in the scriptures and many times man is called a soul: Gen.12:5 "Abram took his wife...and the souls they had gotten in Haran". See also Gen.14:21; 46:26; Exod.12:4,
15,16; Acts 2:41 "and there were added that
day, as it were, three thousand souls"; 2:43
"And fear came upon every soul...". See also
Acts 3:23; 7:14; 27:37 etc.

Will continue later,  Arnold
Arnold M
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91 posted 12-10-2004 08:04 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Looking at my last post, it might be too confusing or too many verses to look up, but
only through God's Word can we know the truth, and I'm not pretending to know all the truth on this subject, only using the scriptures as the final word.

Next question: Is there consciousness in sheol, or the grave?  Psa.6:5 in the NIV reads, "no one remembers you when he is dead.  Who praises you from the grave?" See
also Psa.31:17; 94:7; 115:17; Eccl.9:5,6,10.

Has anyone, or any conscious part of him gone to heaven?  The answer must be no. Let us read John 3:13 "And no one hath gone up to heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven." YLT. This was written by John after the Lord's ascension.
Also, Peter declares in Acts 2:34 on the day of pentecost: "..David did not go up to the heavens..."

Since death is the absence of life, the cure is resurrection, making alive: Jno.5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead  and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He will"; 5:28 "..the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth.." and many others.

More to come.  Arnold  
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92 posted 12-10-2004 08:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Mark, Mathew, Luke, John, Paul etc.
You’re quoting guys who lived thousands
of years ago, not God.

Sometimes they got it wrong:

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing
here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man
coming in his kingdom.”

Mathew 16:28

And perhaps had doubts:

“If after the manner of men I have fought
with beasts of Ephesus, what avantageth it me,
if the dead rise not?  Let us eat and drink;
for to morrow we die.”

Corihthians 15:32

Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


93 posted 12-11-2004 11:52 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi Huan. It's true, all of the writers of the Bible lived thousands of years ago, and I believe there is a living God who inspired these scribes to write exactly what He wanted.  The Bible is actually a collection of 66 books, written over a span of more than 1500 years, with at lesast 40 different writers from different countries, social strata, and occupations.  Yet this book has a unity and cohesiveness that leaves an open-
minded, discerning person with only one logical explanation: God is the true author of this book.

Huan, if you do not believe this, then I suppose our discussion is over, for nothing that man can conjecture, or dream up, knows the answers to life and death.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


94 posted 12-12-2004 12:02 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Arnold,

Muslims, (in the hundreds of millions), claim the very same thing and more
for the Koran, indeed Salman Rushdie through “The Satanic Verses”
earned himself a death sentence for suggesting otherwise.
What gives the Bible more authority?

“Yet this book has a unity and cohesiveness that leaves an open-
minded, discerning person with only one logical explanation: God is the true author of this book.”

Oh I can think of a number of others.


Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


95 posted 12-12-2004 12:45 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Huan, I do want to clarify the verses you quoted.
Starting with Matt.16:28(RSV)"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. And after six days Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart.  And he was transfigured before them, and his face shown like the sun, and his garments became white as light."
Skipping to verse 17:9 ".as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them,
'Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead'".

Peter tells us in 2Peter 1:16-18 that the power and glory demonstrated on the mountain
was like his second coming: "For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eye-witnesses of his majesty.  For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory,
'This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased' we heard this voice borne from heaven for we were with him on the holy mountain".
So Peter, James and John didn't see death because they got a glimpse ahead of time of the power and majesty of his coming.

In 1 Cor.15:12 for the rest of the chapter, the apostle Paul is arguing that Christ has been raised from the dead, and if Christ, so all who are his.  In verse 32 Paul argues that he has fought beasts at Ephesus and why would he do that if there was no resurrection of the dead.  

Please read all of chapter 15.

More to come.  Arnold  
Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


96 posted 12-12-2004 05:29 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Huan, my understanding of muslim teaching that upon death all "good" muslims would go to their heaven alive in some other body or form.  Is that correct?

I'm not familiar with "Satanic Verses", but am aware that the muslim theologians were outraged at what was written and plan on killing Salman Rushdie.

Since all humanity, if they live long enough will die, are there other religions, writings, which state that death is the cessation of life, and in the grave man knows nothing util resurrected?

Arnold
Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


97 posted 12-20-2004 09:20 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Huan, please give some more verses that you feel are contradictory so that they can be discussed.
Stephanos
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Statesboro, GA, USA


98 posted 01-07-2005 11:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

[quote]Chicken Fajitas
Serves 4

  4                     boneless skinless chicken breast halves -- cut
into strips
  1         tablespoon  vegetable oil
  2             cloves  garlic -- minced
     1/4           cup  lime juice
     1/4      teaspoon  chili powder
     1/2      teaspoon  oregano
     1/4      teaspoon  thyme
     1/2      teaspoon  cumin
     1/4      teaspoon  pepper
     3/4           cup  red onion -- sliced
  1                     red bell pepper -- cut in strips
  8                     romaine lettuce leaves -- large


                       SUGGESTED GARNISHES (optional)
                        Salsa
                        Sour cream
                        Avocado
                        Chopped Cilantro
                        Grated cheddar cheese


In a large skillet, heat oil over high heat. Add garlic and chicken.
Sauté for 2-3 minutes till chicken is browned. Add lime juice, spices,
onion and red pepper. Cook for 2-3 minutes on medium heat stirring
constantly. Remove from heat and cover to keep warm.

Use Romaine leaves in lieu of tortillas and enjoy--this really is
delicious!

Per Serving: 345 Calories; 14g Fat (36.2% calories from fat); 47g
Protein; 7g Carbohydrate; 2g Dietary Fiber; 156mg Cholesterol; 180mg
Sodium.  Exchanges: 0 Grain(Starch); 6 1/2 Lean Meat; 1 Vegetable; 0
Fruit; 1/2 Fat.

LC SERVING SUGGESTIONS: Spread 1 tablespoon sour cream, avocado and
salsa on a large Romaine lettuce leaf**. Add a layer of cilantro and
cheese, then add chicken mixture to the middle. Roll lettuce leaf up
from one side folding over one edge to hold mixture in place.  Serve a
big spinach salad as well.

**If you prefer tortillas, Tortilla Factory makes a low carb tortilla!
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


99 posted 01-07-2005 11:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

LOL.


I went to paste a quote, to respond to something said above and out came this recipe! ... must've been something my wife copied and pasted elsewhere.  Anyway, it struck me as funny enough to leave it.  And you might want to add it to your own personal menus.  


Best wishes,

Stephen.


I'll reply in a minute, as to my original intent of posting.  

 
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