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Passions in Poetry

Universal Reconciliation

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Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
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225 posted 08-16-2005 08:22 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

JCP: In practically every letter, Paul says he is called to be the apostle to the Gentiles.  In fact he points out in the Galatian letter, that he, Paul, was entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised (Gentiles), as Peter was entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised (Jewish believers).

You asked, "Was he the only apostle?" The answer, "no".  There were the 12 in Jerusalem; then, besides Paul, there was Silvanus and Timothy (1 Thes. 2:6); Barnabas (Acts 14:14 and 1 Cor. 9:3-6); Andronicus and
Junias (Rom.16:7); and Apollos (1 Cor.4:6-9).

Do OT doctrines apply to the Church today? My
answer is NO.  They lived under the covenant of "I will bless you if you keep the law", etc.  Animal sacrifices were part of their doctrine. A priest-hood and a temple (before it was destroyed).  Keeping the Sabbath.  Which meant no work, only a short distance to walk, etc.  And, if two or more witnesses said you broke the Sabbath, the judgement was death.

Now, I want to say, that there are principals
true in every age, from Adam on. Such as faith, love, forgiveness, obedience, right living etc.

We, believers and members of the church/body of Christ are not children of Abraham according to the flesh.  We, who are justified by faith as Abraham was justifed by faith, are his "children", because we follow his example of living by faith.

As to the future of the church/body being in the heavenlies, this is revealed in Ephesians

Quoting from the Concordant NT: 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will, for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved:"

God sees us as sons, perfect in the celestials through Christ. To enjoy spiritual blessings beyond our wildest imaginations. All because of God's grace.

In 2:4-6 it says, "God, being rich in mercy, because of His vast love with which He loves us(we also being dead to the offenses and lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!) and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus, that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

God, who sees the future as today, sees us, the believers, as being made alive and roused together with Christ, seated in the celestials.

Are you equating "resurrection" with "born again"?  Paul, in 1 Cor.15, reveals a secret: not all in the body of Christ will die; but those who are alive when Christ gives the shout of command, and the trumpet blows, will put on immortality and, with those who are resurrected (those asleep in Christ), will meet the Lord in the air. And, since we know that, potentially, we will be seated in the heavenlies with Christ, then, that is where Christ takes us.

Well, JCP, I'll admit, there are many interpretaions.  One book that I would recommend getting is "God's Eonian Purpose" by Adlai Loudy. It can be purchased over the web, as well as other publications, at www.concordance.org.

If you would want to discuss this more privately, we could correspond by email.

Let me know.  Arnold

JesusChristPose
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since 06-21-2005
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226 posted 08-17-2005 09:14 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Well Arnold,

There are countless of other people, scholars, etc., who would disagree with you on many of those issues. When I studied the Bible, it was evident to me that the OT and NT have much in common about the second coming and salvation.

I really don't want to get back into it. I am over it anymore. I am sick and tired of other people telling me what I believe is wrong. What I believe came through asking God with a contrite and truly humble heart. If the answers I received are wrong according to you, Stephan, Jim or the countless others of people of faith, then the only answer left for me is - there isn't any God or if there is, the truth revealed to me is the truth FOR me, maybe not you or others, but given to me by God so I can understand what God wants me to understand.

It is really quite simple.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


227 posted 08-18-2005 08:21 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi JCP.  Try to take any inputs as advice, or coaching. If, when examining all scripture relating to a particular subject, you are convinced one way or another, then stand by it.  Like many things in life, you make descisions based on facts, data, etc.
Some of which you must get from others.

Again, try not to lump everything together.
Take one point at a time and let's discuss that, referencing all the scriptures that apply.

Arnold
JesusChristPose
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228 posted 08-18-2005 09:06 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"Try to take any inputs as advice, or coaching. If, when examining all scripture relating to a particular subject, you are convinced one way or another, then stand by it."

~ Hey Arnold, I am 43 years old. I have taken advice and have been coached. I have been convinced. I did stand by it.

"Like many things in life, you make descisions based on facts, data, etc.
Some of which you must get from others."


~ Of course, that is how my search began... way back when I was in my early 20s.

"Again, try not to lump everything together."

~ I don't.

"Take one point at a time..."

~ I do.

"... and let's discuss that, referencing all the scriptures that apply."

~ You can reference any scripture you want to, but it can still be interpreted in literally hundreds of ways. What is the point?

Read the last paragraph of my last reply again. How can one argue that?

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

JesusChristPose
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since 06-21-2005
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229 posted 08-18-2005 09:32 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Alright, I will provide one easy example of how the Bible can be interpreted differently between two, and of course many more, people who have or are searching for the truth.

In Peter's dream, he saw all of the animals of the earth in a blanket, including "unclean" animals.  God told him to rise, kill, and eat, and Peter told the Lord, no. That he has never eaten anything that was unclean.

Question One: Did this dream mean that it was now okay to eat unclean animals?



"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (08-18-2005 11:16 PM).]

Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
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230 posted 08-19-2005 06:02 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Hi JCP: I don't see that the dream meant it was acceptable for Peter and the circumcision to eat unclean animals.

It certainly wasn't clear to Peter, for in verse 17 it says "...Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision.." NIV.

I appears to me that he interpreted the vision to mean that "God does not show favoritism, but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right", verse 34.

Also, this insight must have occured to him right after the dream, for he invited three "unclean" Gentiles to be his guests.  This was, of course after the Spirit told him,in verse 20,to go with them, for the Spirit had sent them.

And, after going to Cornelius' house, and seeing the Holy Spirit fall on all those hearing the word, even though all Gentiles, he is definitely convinced about God's impartiality.

If Peter thought this dream meant it was OK to eat "unclean" animals, he certainly didn't tell any of the Jewish believers.

God bless,  Arnold

JesusChristPose
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since 06-21-2005
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Pittsburgh, Pa


231 posted 08-19-2005 06:32 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I agree. Peter even states what the dream meant and it did not include eating unclean animals.

Peter also speaks to God in his dream stating that he never has eaten any unclean meat.

Now, that dream was how long after Christ's death?

And was how long after the day of Pentacost?

Certainly, if it was okay to eat pork (notice in the blanket crustaceans, or any sea animal WAS NOT included) or any other foods banned by God, for our own health reasons, Jesus and the Holy Spirit of God would of set Peter straight a good while back.

Why wouldn't of Christ told Peter and the other apostles that it was now okay to eat any type of food one wanted to eat... that it was no longer a commandment of God not to eat certain unclean foods?


"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."
JesusChristPose
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since 06-21-2005
Posts 679
Pittsburgh, Pa


232 posted 08-19-2005 06:34 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"I really don't want to get back into it. I am over it anymore. I am sick and tired of other people telling me what I believe is wrong. What I believe came through asking God with a contrite and truly humble heart. If the answers I received are wrong according to you, Stephan, Jim or the countless others of people of faith, then the only answer left for me is - there isn't any God or if there is, the truth revealed to me is the truth FOR me, maybe not you or others, but given to me by God so I can understand what God wants me to understand."

~ Who can argue against this? I'd be interested to hear it.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
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233 posted 08-19-2005 07:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"If the answers I received are wrong according to you..."


Who said your answers are wrong?
JesusChristPose
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234 posted 08-19-2005 08:05 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Most of whom were mentioned, plus countless others.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Essorant
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235 posted 08-19-2005 08:21 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

You're answer may not be as right and true as Christ's.  But I have no doubt that it is right and true.
Essorant
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236 posted 08-19-2005 08:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Belief is to truth as treasurechest is to treasure.
Ron
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237 posted 08-19-2005 10:54 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Who can argue against this? I'd be interested to hear it.

Who would want to argue it, Mike, either for or against? This forum is to discuss issues, not personal experience.

"Either Mike is right or God doesn't exist." Now there's a proposition I'm sure everyone is getting in line to debate.
JesusChristPose
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238 posted 08-19-2005 11:07 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

I would suppose people who believe that their faith is the only true faith would want to argue my reply.  And there are many who would argue it.  

However, I can see your point Ron, but I was talking about God and those whom believe that their faith is the one and only correct religion.

In other words, if one accepts that I did do what I said - that I did (with a contrite heart) petition the Lord, and my answers were alien to mainstream christianity beliefs, among others...

then who is to say whom is right or wrong?
That is all I am saying.

"I have gone away. The bed is cold and empty. Trees bend their boughs toward the earth. And nighttime birds float as black faces."

Essorant
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239 posted 08-20-2005 08:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

JCP

Anyone has the right to say your answer is wrong.  Just as you have the right to say his/her answer is wrong too.
Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
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240 posted 08-25-2005 06:21 PM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

I'm curious, JCP.  When you petitioned the Lord for truth?  How did He answer you?  In dreams?  In visions?  Words that you heard?
Maybe even to carefully study His written revelation of redemption, the Bible?

And were you told not to consider the epistles of Paul as the final authority regarding the evangel to the gentiles and to the church which is Christ's body?

I would like to know.

Arnold
JesusChristPose
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241 posted 08-25-2005 07:48 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

All of the above.

EDITED: Except for the part about not listening to Paul. I missed that at first.



"If this grand panaorama before me is what you call God... then God is not dead."

[This message has been edited by JesusChristPose (08-25-2005 10:26 PM).]

Essorant
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242 posted 08-28-2005 03:03 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If two or more answers of a disagreement are wise and reasonable, but still contradictory to each other, what is the better answer to give?
Arnold M
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since 09-05-2004
Posts 128


243 posted 08-29-2005 12:32 AM       View Profile for Arnold M   Email Arnold M   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Arnold M

Ess:  you ask such deep philosophical questions sometime.

Do you have an illustration to clarify your last question?

Arnold
Essorant
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244 posted 08-29-2005 01:31 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hi Arnold          


Well an example is that sometimes someone in this forum may come along and give an excellent answer and argument to a question, that I believe may be the only answer I shall thoroughly agree with.   And then someone else comes along and gives an answer and argument, that even may disagree, but I find myself agreeing with that answer/argument as well.  And then more people come along and give answers and I agree with more answers too, even though they differ in places and disagreeable and contradict others. What is it that makes me agree with all the answers? I believe it must be that all of them are wise and based on life and learning, and stand as truths no matter what the differences and disagreements are. But under such condition, if someone agrees so, how does he make an answer himself?   What should he go by?  Everyone's answer has wisdom and truth, and he believes in them but nevertheless they are different and contradict each other in some places.  
Should he say just "everything" or "I don't know"?    
Essorant
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Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


245 posted 08-29-2005 03:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Where's Serenity?
I didn't see her in Philosophy for a long time.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-29-2005 05:21 PM).]

Stephanos
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246 posted 08-30-2005 01:24 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ess,

Serenity (Karen) Lives in Gretna Louisiana, very close to New Orleans, just about ground Zero for hurricane Katrina.  I hope all is well with her.  Let me know if you or anyone hear from her.


Stephen.
Stephanos
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247 posted 09-13-2005 06:21 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Everyone,


I got an email from Karen (Serenity) yesterday.  She's doing fine ... don't know many details other than that.

Just thought I'd let you all know.


Stephen.
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
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248 posted 09-14-2005 06:44 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Thanks Stephanos.
I'm glad to hear she is doing well.
Denise
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since 08-22-99
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249 posted 09-20-2005 12:00 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yep, she and her family got out in the nick of time, Stephen. Thank God.

Here is a link from Announcements for more details.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum3/HTML/003727.html
 
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