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Passions in Poetry

Population

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Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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0 posted 12-20-2003 02:57 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Do you think in general, how numerous we are as humans permits us to "function" as we should?  Do we have enough space from one human body to others?  How does one approach something like this?  Is it important?
Just wondering what your thoughts are.
Thanks
Mad_Hatter
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1 posted 12-20-2003 04:28 AM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

If I'm reading the question right, then in my opinion it was one of the most important.  Having so many people on earth creats complications, mainly because humans haven't fully evolved in the spirit and the soul.  We're still very primitive about things and aren't interconnected.  Having so many people on earth makes humanity alot less personal, we almost look at people who live far away from us as a different species.  The fact that there are so many of us distracts us from the real problems, by creating new unnecessary ones that are spawned from the original problems.  Until we learn to live together as one, we shouldn't technically have another child born on this earth.  Humanity however, is probably nearing it's peak and therefore having more of us seems, in an evolutionary sense the most logical; the more people there are, the more oportunity to better us.  However we cannot become what we we were meant to be, until we stop seeing eachother as different this and different that.  Thats my two cents.
Brad
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2 posted 12-20-2003 06:47 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I don't understand what 'should' means.
Essorant
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3 posted 12-20-2003 08:58 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Madhatter, Brad et al


With should I mean as is best to for our own health and the world's weal in general.  

I don't have enough time to converse right now; but I will be back in a while.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-20-2003 09:35 PM).]

Local Rebel
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4 posted 12-20-2003 09:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Is 300,000 square feet (6.5 acres) of land per person enough for us to function as we 'should'?

Overpopulation is a very subjective concept.

There are about 68 people per square mile in the United States... worldwide about 96 per square mile.

quote:

If everyone lived in Texas, population density would be 20,304 per square mile (1,373 square feet of land area per person), slightly under twice the density of Singapore and three-tenths the density of Macau in 1987.[30] In that case, Texas would form one giant city with a population density less than that of many existing cities, and leaving the rest of the world empty.


from http://www.crta.org/webfiles/antithesis/v1n4/ant_v1n4_growth.html

Some people choose to live in rural areas where population is sparse.  Some in urban areas where it is dense.  Each, obviously, prefers it that way.... how can we reach a conclusive answer to your question?

It's an important question -- but difficult to answer objectively -- I've seen some studies that support a maximum world population of 40 billion.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (12-20-2003 09:57 PM).]

Severn
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5 posted 12-20-2003 09:48 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Not to mention the many different cultural ways of living that there are...

nomadic
hunter\gatherer
sedentary
farmer
inner-city dweller

etc etc etc

I'm not sure this question can be answered in a nice 'tie it all up neatly' way...

K

Local Rebel
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6 posted 12-20-2003 10:16 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Liebig’s law of the minimum is an important component of the question -- whatever single resource is in the shortest supply will constrain the growth of a crop, or a population -- regardless of lifestyle choice.

In the 19th century when coal was the primary source of heat and the skies over metropolitan areas were dark with ash I'm sure a coal shortage would have invoked panic -- just as oil prices drive our current economy.

Humanity prevails (so far).

Politics enters into the picture too.

President Bush is, miraculously, touting investment in hydrogen energy -- but (surprise surprise) is proposing the bulk of government funding for producing hydrogen from... (you guessed it) oil?  One of the least efficient methods of production which also emits the same pollutants into the environment during production.  Tsk Tsk Mr. President... you can do better.

But Hydrogen is an excellent, safe form of energy and you can make it from a glass of water with the sun....  when you burn it you get --- ta da -- water.

Boron may also be a rival for hydrogen in energy storage and release...  that's what the real problem is -- fuel is just a convenient way to store and release energy -- and energy is in no short supply in the universe.
Ron
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7 posted 12-21-2003 02:30 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
But Hydrogen is an excellent, safe form of energy

Try telling that to the Hindenburg, LR.

Energy, almost by definition, is unsafe in all but the most controlled circumstances. But I suspect most of know what you meant.

Robert Heinlein wrote, circa 1941, about a time he called "The Crazy Years," a period in his remarkably consistent Future History, which itself spanned most of his work. I don't have the short story that first introduced me to Heinlein's Crazy Years, haven't seen it in at least thirty years, but I think it was titled " Blowups Happen." It opened with a woman casually stripping on a busy street corner, for absolutely no reason except she could. Crazy Years, indeed.

Take a bunch of rats, enclose them in too small a cage, and they very quickly start developing neurosis. They go a bit crazy.

Our cage isn't yet too small, and there's no doubt science will reveal many, many new things in the years to come that will make it more comfortable and accommodating. But it is still a cage, and if we don't escape from the cage, the outcome is as inevitable as two plus two equals four. There is no such thing as unlimited growth.
Local Rebel
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8 posted 12-21-2003 12:29 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well that's certainly not the first time I've heard that objection Ron... and... are you being flip?  Heh..

I was raised in the muscle car years and I loved them... wanted to go fast... big blocks, big tires, loud roars, low gears, sprint runners, high-end runners... but about the time I was old enough to actually drive one the energy crisis had hit and the whole world seemed to be insane.  Not to mention the fact that President Nixon was freezing us to death by asking us to turn down our thermostats -- but even worse!!!  55mph!!!

I immediately began trying to come up with alternative solutions.  I was in utter shock.... yes.. shock... to discover that the internal combustion engine I was in love with was probably one of the stupidest and most in-efficient designs for power transmission ever created.  To wit -- the fact that it needs to be cooled... duh... little did I realize that all the excess heat was just wasted energy.  The whole concept of taking a translational motion (pistons inside a cylinder) and converting it into torsional energy via articulated torque arms (levers -- or.. Rods for those of you who've ever thrown one through a block) is so absurd it's a wonder it ever caught on.  But, then there was that whole love affair with VHS wasn't there?

One of the first places I looked for answers was alternate fuels -- and began very early on trying to develop ethanol and hydrogen producing systems -- but -- given my youth and the constant reference to the Hindenberg -- I was unable to attract the required capital.  Pioneers always take the arrows.

It is a little known fact though that it was the Diesel fuel on the Hindenberg that caused most of the mayhem though -- the H2 merely exploded and was gone... the aftermath of burning diesel is what killed most of the victims that unfortunate day... but, control is the key... and fuel cell technology is coming up to speed... one of my final projects was a covert attempt to build the required assembly equipment -- which is very difficult because fuel cells require some very thin and fragile web elements -- which masqueraded as 'Oxygen Generators' -- ha...  the cheif project engineer was shocked when I called his bluff and said it was a fuel cell -- what.. do they think we're idiots?

If I can tie this back into the thread somehow -- there are finite resources on Terra Firma but there is little shortage of brain capital -- greed -- that's what's stupid.
Essorant
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9 posted 12-21-2003 02:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think the way people fancy cars today is ridiculous.  These take hundreds of lives a year, injure many more, they pollute, clutter space, they rust, make junkyards, are the objects of many crimes, the causes of many accidents; they make us immodest and hurried to get places and greedy for money to get them and sell them; we have to take up so much space to accomodate them; they go out of fashion in their forms like all machines; they are advertised too excess and the dealerships display them in excess.  I get too weary to admire them anymore.  Compared to the ill and discomforts they cause despite what they are meant to be for humankind, enhancers of living, the virtue and good things they offer seem very minor now.  I wish I could enjoy them as much as other people seem to, but I don't think I ever will until very many changes come.  
If I were mayor I would probably put all carmedia and streets underground, and cars would have to stay there so people wouldn't have to see them or watch out for them when they come up for a walk and fresh air in the real world.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-21-2003 02:44 PM).]

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


10 posted 12-21-2003 04:34 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

With the exception of India, how many nations are even at replacement reproduction rates?

I can't think of any advanced nation that is.
Local Rebel
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11 posted 12-21-2003 07:27 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Interesting...

Asia growing at about 1.7% annually

North America .6%

Europe down .05%
http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/basic_information/population_growth_rate/
Mad_Hatter
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12 posted 12-22-2003 01:48 AM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

Lesser developed countries have a greater population growth and Asia would have a higher growth rate because of the sheer ammount of people that it has.
jbouder
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since 09-18-99
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


13 posted 12-22-2003 08:19 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Ron:

Hydrogen fuel cells generate power by chemical reaction, not combustion.  The misconception that hydrogen fuel cells are can blow up like H2 is a myth.  The by-products of the chemical reaction are water and heat and many fuel cells are capable of generating power at 90% or better efficiency even after 10 or more years.

But you probably already knew that.

It does make sense for energy generation suppliers to be involved in the development of renewable and alternate sources of power, since they are most able to recover research and development costs by rate payers and shareholders.

Jim
Ron
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14 posted 12-22-2003 12:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
But you probably already knew that.

In truth, I didn't (though some might argue combustion IS chemical reaction, Jim). I'll have to look up some current research when time permits and see what's been happening. I've read a bit about the end products, i.e., battery-powered and hybrid battery/gas vehicles, and wasn't terribly impressed. Higher prices and lower performance probably isn't going to be a big market performer.

I still remember, a few years back, when the cold fusion hullabaloo came out of Utah? There was about a week there when I think was honestly as excited as I've ever been in my life. Had it been true, it would have changed everything.
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


15 posted 12-22-2003 01:15 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Ron:

Prices will come down in time, but you need demand before mass production becomes a viable business option.

I attended a Pennsylvania Joint Legislative Air & Water Pollution Control & Conservation Committee meeting at which Siemens presented on their Solid Oxide Fuel Cells.  There website has some decent information and another good link:

http://www.siemenswestinghouse.com/en/fuelcells/history/index.cfm?session=2599649x79 396907

http://www.fuelcells.org/

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (12-22-2003 01:18 PM).]

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


16 posted 12-22-2003 01:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

My emphasis on cars earlier I thought was valid because it seems they are almost as numerous as people in our North America and many people have more than one car: and when they are in motion they require even much more area.  They take up much more than people themselves.  But I think other structures, and possessions, that shall generally be raised withal should be considered when judging a population weal: everything counts.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-22-2003 02:22 PM).]

Essorant
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17 posted 12-23-2003 01:10 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Basically our popular notion of progress yet seems to follow the Romans' linear  toward city-structure seeking and push away from ruralness and direct intimacy with nature; And Christendom, inculcating one should not seek spirit through nature's physical bodies but always through the church, a structure, and the bible another structure.  These influences basically abolished our faith in nature as a source of of divinity and wisdom and enlightenment in which to live; so how could the humanworld have evolved to live anything but city and structure-centered, when The Romans and Christian missions mastered our minds through so much of history? The Roman conquest of structuralism still shows very much, but Christianity and Spiritual  purposes in general are basically now taken over by affixation to Science and Technology.  The Roman conquest for making the world into a street of city-structures continues, only now with even more devastating ordinance of massive technology against nature ruling even more massive populations with minds more mechanically determined and less distracted by spiritual delay.  
The main world still puts more faith and attention to Structures than to Nature; that is what I have a problem with.  To me urbanization and structuralization do not mean "civilization" Especially when accumulation is there sought more than cultivation and takes people too far away from naturalness and ruralness.  The problem is when we live in excess urbanization, where cars are pouring in our face almost everywhere, and building and roads take away almost all the green landscape, with traffic of such massive populations full of haste, we become the savages of our own structure -of the structure that was made to keep us from being savages of nature.
Are the main centers of the human world, so dense with population, so inflexible that as city-structures growing all the time, could never consider or make a new plan that is a bit more observant to letting us live with the natural world a bit more, a bit slower, a bit less pressed, a bit less complex?  

Why do we let so many negative excesses go on?  Is it impossible to downsize and reverse just a bit?


[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-23-2003 02:48 PM).]

Essorant
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18 posted 03-12-2004 01:14 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Humans said they loved the natural landscape; they banned it for the city.  They said they loved the horse that helped draw their burdens through war and peace; they abandoned it for the unliving luxury of a hastewagon that pollutes, and creates an enviroment given to thousands of accidents, injuries deaths and yards of metal junk.  They said they loved civilization; they banned it for business and technology; they said they loved religion, they forsook it for science.  They said they loved God, they forsook him for selfworship and luxury.  What is left of civilization that may possibly given away?  It looks like we fared from the basement of natural ignorance to a noble crest, and have now returned to the same basement we learnt to will ourselves from, only now willing ourselves to it.
Severn
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19 posted 03-12-2004 03:39 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

You know Ess...this may sound like a judgement, but do you really see the world through such negative eyes?

It sounds to me like you idealise and glorify past civilisations, and have condemned our own completely.

There is good in our civilisation Ess, there really is.

Medicine.
Travel.
Global communication (which is, to me at least, a huge benefit).
The movement toward equal opportunity for women and men (though we are not quite there yet).
Opportunity in general - it is more widely available for many.

I like lists..they give the impression you can write more and more and more lol.

The fact is hon I'm being slightly hypocritical because when I immerse myself in fantasy literature I often think 'wow, I wish I could be there...it's so much better, so much purer' etc etc. Truthfully? That's crap.

I'm sure that if you actually lived in the time of horses and cute little carriages and leeches and bloodletting you'd find a lot to complain about then too.

It's our nature (prerogative?) to complain. How else would 'progress' occur? Heh...

K

Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


20 posted 03-12-2004 03:53 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Curious if anybody's read The Country and the City by Raymond Williams.
nakdthoughts
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since 10-29-2000
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Between the Lines


21 posted 03-13-2004 10:25 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

just a small comment Ess...I moved away from a larger county in another state  over 28 years ago  across the line into the next state and although I have seen change over the years...we still do not even have a traffic light for miles around... the town is old..and the old is still there ( some from the times of horse and buggies). In fact my neighbor who passed away about 10 years ago use to tell me of the weekly trips to Baltimore and how they would spend the night delivering coal. Now it takes 35 minutes to get there by car...

You can have country living, suburban living or city dwelling,  be at the seashore if that is what you choose..or go to the mountains and be alone...it's all a matter of choice and wants.

M

Severn
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22 posted 03-13-2004 05:19 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

A question Ess - at which point did we reach a 'noble crest' anyway?

K
Local Rebel
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23 posted 03-13-2004 06:00 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

This much is certain... Ess is not the first poet to eschew civilization and favor nature.. eh?  
Essorant
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


24 posted 03-14-2004 03:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"You know Ess...this may sound like a judgement, but do you really see the world through such negative eyes?"

The human world or the world that's buried a thousand layers underneath that?

"I'm sure that if you actually lived in the time of horses and cute little carriages and leeches and bloodletting you'd find a lot to complain about then too."

I think I would rather live with horses and leeches and the small inconviences they make than unliving machines that cause more wickedhaste and destruction and pollution everyday.

"...I'm being slightly hypocritical because when I immerse myself in fantasy literature I often think 'wow, I wish I could be there...it's so much better, so much purer' etc etc. Truthfully? That's crap."

That's because most fantasy literature is usually  based on most curious and unique attributes of former times, manners and mysteries, when men and women were knights and maids, and lord and ladies, in a pursuit of honour and protecting each others honour.  I really think those things did exist, not as ideally drawn in fantasy books; but there was a dignified senstiveness about honour and shame, that both men and women had, despite some of the roughness they also had to live with.  We also live with roughness today but I don't think that dignified senstiveness is there to counter that as much as it was in early times.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (03-14-2004 05:23 PM).]

 
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