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Philosophy 101
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Rap Music = Poetry ?
| Philosophy 101 |
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Rap Music = Poetry ? |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
My question to everybody is, can one find elements of poetry in some rap music? |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Yes. |
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LilTai Member
since 2002-06-08
Posts 189United States |
absolutely....rap, the good kind at least, is just spoken poetry to a beat...=) -tai |
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Marge Tindal 
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
I certainly think so~ ~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost, |
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Greeneyes 
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
isnt all music poetry? I had a dream last night |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Well, yeah... rap, at its best, is a fusion between poetry and music, with both the lyrics and the beat maintaining an importance. I don't listen to a lot of it, but based on my few listenings to it, I'd say that the new Outkast CD is an excellent example of what you're saying. I think the more important issue is the social signifigance of certain messages in rap music. In a lot of rap, there is a pervasive sense of violence and a wanton use of explicit sexual language. (No that I think that's such a bad thing...  )The issue is whether these messages and tendencies have a negative and/or profound affect... for example, Get Low by Little John and the East Side Boys is one of the most disrespectful songs as far as the objectification of women goes that I've heard in quite some time... Yet Missy Elliot has a tendency toward the same sort of objectification of the male body ('Are you worth it? Let me work it..') I think the difference lies in the focus... the male lusts primarily for sex, often with anyone so long as the boobs are big and she's willing. The focus is on her... while female rappers tend to treat themselves as something that not everyone deserves, or as an object of fantasy (as in Lil Kim's How Many Licks). The focus, here, is still on her. Well, now that I've turned this into a treatise on gender issues... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If it weren't obscene most of the time. [This message has been edited by Essorant (11-25-2003 02:11 PM).] |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
To answer this, I have to go back to a question that was asked in CA a while ago... "What is poetry?" And ask one of my own... who are we to say it isn't poetry? Back in the late 60's and into the early 70's (if I have the time-line correct) there was a generation of "beat poets". According to the really bad mocvies and tv shows depicting that era, they would often play bongos, or jazz, or something else while they spoke. Some of those same poets are revered by many people even today because they spoke what was in their hearts, and they spoke for the masses. Now, let's look at rap for a quick second: They play drum beats, and often times, music behind the "poet" who is speaking in rhyme and meter about what is on his/her mind, and about what is important to the masses... The only real differences I can find are the specific beats, the style of music played, the concerns (in some cases), and the race of the poet. Then again, those are just my thoughts. We are all equal but we’re individually different |
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LilTai Member
since 2002-06-08
Posts 189United States |
I'm not trying to be rude or to offend anyone...however, if you do not listen to rap, and hear only the crap that is played on the radio, please do not judge what the meaning of rap as a whole is. "radio rap" is just a stereotype- the right combination to earn the most money. real rap and hiphop is a culture of poetry and soul...don't judge it unless you know and understand it...  -tai |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Hey Tai, I'm behind you there. I used radio examples because it's more accessible.... you can turn on the radio and hear "Get Low" pretty much every hour, on the hour... Who's going to know who I'm talking about when I start citing Sarah Jones and Ursula Rucker (Although I think she's a little more in tune with soul and r&b)...? If anyone wants to here a really good example of educated, artful, and politically sound rap, go pick up some public enemy. (Or really, all you have to do is watch "Do The Right Thing." You'll know "Fight the Power" by heart at the end...) |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
When I teach poetry to teenagers, I encourage them to bring me their favorite rap lyrics (subject to discernment of course)... and they're often surprised to see how poetic it is... Me Bad...  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Gettin' down wid' Ron on PHILOh 101 Askin' every kind of question that has crossed the human mind From the pre-socratics to talkin' bout drug addicts. From plato, to Play-Doe We seem to touch it all. Metaphysics and morality the best epistemology When it comes to dat philosphy it seems we got the call. Rapping philosophers. Hmmm ... Not to be racially offensive, But I'm just a white boy without much hope in this area. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (11-29-2003 09:58 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Dude, Stephen.... Eminem made it big, so could you... |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
Rap music is not poetry.. It's usually written to go well with a consistent and repetitive beat/melody. "Beatnik" writers wrote spoken word poetry, they considered it that. Rap is in a genre all it's own, so it's not neccesary to compare the two. Rap artists could consider themselves poets but, so could anyone. To me, rap music is far from poetry, it's lyrical. Lyrics and poetry are similar, but also two very different things. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
There's no doubt that musical lyrics incorporate poetry. In that sense it is poetic, and just adds other auditory elements. So yes, they are different because lyrical music is not purely poetry. But it seems that one could rightly describe rap music as poetry but with a modified vehicle of delivery, involving musical elements that are not typically shared with poetry. Personally I would say that poetry and lyrics are two somewhat different things, with a whole lot of similarity. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-02-2003 09:31 PM).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Stephan: Perhaps more like Vanilla Ice than Marshall Mathers - I think you have one-hit-wonder potential in the rap scene ... just don't rip off Queen like Vanilla Ice did. Kaoru: Surely rap music is not poetry, but I think if you saw the lyrics on a page and knew nothing about the accompanying music, you might never know the difference. Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, I'm not quitting my day job. But I will continue to "rap" at least on this forum from time to time. Stephen |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Absolutely! Beat music and poetry was all about the freedom of expression, regardless of form. It was much like what mannerism was to art from 1520 to 1600. It disregards the mechanics and practicality of more classical poetry and a metronome is often set to the fluent words or lyrics. Rap music is tied very closely to the beat genre. I happen to think Eminem is one of the most poetic voices of this generation, regardless if one thinks he is racist or not. His lyrics are brave, ruthless, fluent, and charismatic; all great characteristics in a beat poet. "Lose Yourself" is perhaps the most poetic song I have heard in the past year, obviously a rap song. Of course to the Greeks music and poetry were always an alliance to each other, so one can say rock music, jazz music, country music, inspirational music, any form of music is poetry! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Kaoru
since 2003-06-07
Posts 3892where the wild flowers grow |
Perhaps.. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Noah, with all due respect, Eminem's lyrics are some of the most repugnant I have ever encountered ... the very opposite of brave, and charasmatic. I'll concede that they are ruthless and fluent. But then again, sewage pipes are fluent aren't they? If anyone is not familiar with Em's lyrics, they might be tempted to think that I am being priggish or pietistic in speaking so strongly about them. But just look up his Lyrics on the Web and see for yourself. They are ugly and artistically bland. And believe it or not I have given a magnanimously generous review with these few words. About the only thing that could be said of them is that they reflect a certain reality about society ... but it is that reality within society that we all consider to be pathological and regrettable, a condition of physical, moral and spiritual degradation. Consider these Lyrics from the song "Kim". It's about a toddler accompanying his Dad, to a bridge where the corpse of his murdered mother is to be thrown over. "Wake up sweepy head we're here, before we pway we're gonna take mama for a wittle walk along the pier Baby, don't cry honey, don't get the wrong idea Mama's too sweepy to hear you screamin in her ear (ma-maa!) That's why you can't get her to wake, but don't worry Da-da made a nice bed for mommy at the bottom of the lake Here, you wanna help da-da tie a rope around this rock? (yeah!) We'll tie it to her footsie then we'll roll her off the dock Ready now, here we go, on the count of free.. One.. two.. free.. WHEEEEEE! (whoooooshhhhh) There goes mama, spwashin in the wa-ta No more fightin wit dad, no more restraining order No more step-da-da, no more new brother Blow her kisses bye-bye, tell mama you love her (mommy!) Now we'll go play in the sand, build a castle and junk But first, just help dad with two more things out the trunk" or this from a song called "Role Model" ... "Me and Marcus Allen went over to see Nicole When we heard a knock at the door, must have been Ron Gold' Jumped behind the door, put the orgy on hold Killed em both and smeared blood in a white Bronco (we did it!) My mind won't work if my spine don't jerk I slapped Garth Brooks out of his Rhinestone shirt I'm not a player just a ill rhyme sayer That'll spray an Aerosol can up at the ozone layer (psssssssh) My rap style's warped, I'm runnin out the morgue Witcha dead grandmother's corpse to throw it on your porch Jumped in a Chickenhawk cartoon wit a cape on And beat up Foghorn Leghorn with an acorn I'm bout as normal as Norman Bates, with deformative traits A premature birth that was four minutes late Mother... are you there? I love you I never meant to hit you over the head with that shovel" No offense Noah. But these lyrics are not good poetry. They are hellish. Yet, technically they still classify as "poetry". (that last sentence written with much reluctance) Stephen. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Stephen... 'About the only thing that could be said of them is that they reflect a certain reality about society ... but it is that reality within society that we all consider to be pathological and regrettable, a condition of physical, moral and spiritual degradation.' Now, I know you know better than this 'we all' business... Eminem is offensive and piggish... that's his image. However, the two songs you chose to quote are quite possibly the worst you could have quoted and are hardly representative of his lyrical talent, which I believe he has quite a bit of. It's as bad as proof-texting the bible for passages supporting your point as ignoring those that don't. For example, look at this set of lines from The Way I Am: I sit back with this pack of Zig Zags and this bag of this weed it gives me the (s) needed to be the most meanest MC on this -- on this Earth And since birth I've been cursed with this curse to just curse And just blurt this berserk and bizarre (s) that works And it sells and it helps in itself to relieve all this tension dispensin these sentences Gettin this stress that's been eatin me recently off of this chest I really honestly think he uses rhyme in a very effective way, especially coupled with the way he reads the lyrics in the song. Now, regarding Lose Yourself (which I also consider to be a very poetically sound song): His palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy There's vomit on his sweater already, mom's spaghetti He's nervous, but on the surface he looks calm and ready to drops bombs, but he keeps on forgetting what he wrote down, the whole crowd goes so loud He opens his mouth but the words won't come out He's chokin, how? Everybody's jokin now The clock's run out, time's up, over - BLAOW! Snap back to reality, OHH - there goes gravity OHH - there goes Rabbit, he choked He's so mad, but he won't Give up that easy nope, he won't have it He knows, his whole back's to these ropes It don't matter, he's dope He knows that, but he's broke He's so sad that he knows when he goes back to this mobile home, that's when it's back to the lab again I really, honestly think the imagery and rhyme style here evokes a tone that is appropraite to the subject matter and effective in moving the listener. Look at these lines from later in the song: 'All the pain inside amplified by the fact that I can't get by with my nine to five and I can't provide the right type of life for my family, cause man, these God damn food stamps don't buy diapers,' This is honest look at trailer-park society. This is a look at the poeple to whom we, as a society, delegate the term 'white trash.' This is life for people without money, this is life that ain't no crystal stair, it's hard and it's mean but it's life. It's truth and it's spoken in (to me) a suprisingly poignant way from a rapper with a hard-ass edge... but a talent for evoking empathy from at least some of his audience. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Hush, What did you expect? The same has happened to Ozzy. Christian leaders went after the lyrics to his song, Suicide Solution, believing that it was a song which promoted suicide, yet it was an anti-alcohol song written by Ozzy while fighting his alcohol problems. Now about Rap music, forget the religious nonsense... some thoughts... 1. It is poetry, but much of it is forced rhyme. Changing and creating words to make lines rhymes, to me, and believe me I have done it to, portrays bad poetry/lyrics. One could argue it is creative to do so, but then that would be like a musician starting a song in the key of G Major and then changing keys throughout the song. 2. Rap music brings the both the black & white races down. Ask Spike Lee about how it harms the black youth of our society. Our youngsters should be learning how to speak proper English. "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Well, I'm not saying let's all cry a river for poor scapegoat Eminem... he made his bed the way he wanted it, and now he lies in it... multi-platinum albums and all. Controversy = sales... Ozzy knows that, Marylin Manson knows that... hell, Britney and Madonna know that. To shock is to sell. Now, as far as rap music bringing down youth with it's grammatical inaccuracies... so, are we saying that's the only music that does so? Please. Pop music might not be so rife with it's 'aks's and traditionally urban language inversions (i.e. 'where you be at') etc... but it's got plenty of double negatives and simply poor, lazy grammar with forced rhymes as well. (Same can be said of country, rock, really examples of any musical genre). I actually find what we consider eubonics -- a mainly black, urban english dialect -- to be pretty interesting. Look at the use of the term 'be' instead of 'are' I cited above. Be is a much more active, powerful verb than the passive 'are.' Or, 'where is you' vs. 'Where are you'--- both are passive verbs, but to me, the use of 'is' -a shorter, somewhat sharper word- is more powerful. I'm not necessarily saying that eubonic speaking styles should be encouraged, but I think we should understand the roots of the expressions, and their significance, before we simply write them off. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Stephanos, with all due respect, the real question here is not if Eminem is a humanist or not, it's if music or whatever you'd like to call it like his is poetry. Marshall Mathers indeed has done some things that have troubled and even disgusted me, but that doesn't make him not a fabulous poet! It is STILL poetry. I happen to think "The Way I Am" and "Stan", for instance, both written out of intense angst, is poetry at its best. I've never heard an artist express rage of never getting any privacy when swimming in fame with such passion than in "The Way I Am". As for Stan, even the form of his lyrics is remarkable. They are written as a series of letters mailed from a fan, each one getting worst than the previous one, of a die-hard fan who demands his son get an autograph or something, and with all the letters he gets he just doesn't have the time to get through them all and so the fan goes insane. Isn't one of poetry's many functions meant to take a slice of life and express it in an abstract or emotional way? Perhaps Eminem's lyrics can sound "hellish" yet they are STILL poetry, and rather artistic poetry too. Obviously when he has sold over 30 million copies of his last two albums combined, the youth of this generation do feel something from him, so he truly is a voice of this generation, love him or hate him. Now, if you take another one of his weaker songs, like "Superman" for instance, then a stronger counter-argument can be made I'm sure! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Hush, I absolutely agree with your thought. Like I mentioned in a previous response, the Greeks always allied poetry and music together, and troubadours, bards, they all adopted those ideals and brought them forward through many later ages. Therefore, according to their beliefs, every genre of music is poetry. Jazz music, country music, rock and roll, you name it! Some of the greatest philosophers like Aristotle beleved that music was a necessity to living, and though some at the time believed an aristocrat should learn music but not perform it as a living, music as always encouraged in the family and up to the 15th and 16th centuries, especially in 1588, when madrigals of Italy were translated to English and became known as the "Music from Beyond the Alps", the same ideals of Plato and Aristotle shared with Greco-Roman musical beliefs flourished on yet again. I understand that I have digressed from the main topic of rap music in particular being poetry, but I truly believe confidently all music is poetry. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Hush: quote: Please don't take this personally ... I know you like Eminem's music. And I still like you . But I simply disagree with you about his lyrics. I think any body of work, whether it be poetry, prose, or music, tends to have a general tone or character. And the question is, what is the overall character of his art? Honestly, I think you would have to "proof-text" acceptable lyrics to support your point. The bulk of his stuff is similar to the examples I posted. I just don't have time, nor does Ron have space, for me to post it here. That's why I recommend readers to check it out for themselves, otherwise it's just the testimony of fans against critics, and vice versa. But this is not some point I want to go on and argue ad infinitum ... his work does speak for itself. "I sit back with this pack of Zig Zags and this bag of this weed it gives me the (s) needed to be the most meanest MC on this -- on this Earth And since birth I've been cursed with this curse to just curse And just blurt this berserk and bizarre (s) that works And it sells and it helps in itself to relieve all this tension dispensin these sentences Gettin this stress that's been eatin me recently off of this chest" What is this but a justification for drug abuse and irresponsible public profanity? So it makes him feel less stressed... alright then, all is well. Sorry, this guy sells to a lot of young people, and his publicity makes him more responsible not less. These lyrics though less brash, are still of the same ilk as those I posted. Are there no redeeming qualities to Eminem? ... maybe, but not enough to tip the scales. quote: So do ends always justify the means? Someone who doesn't care about their influence upon youth, and who does it to make a dollar, has a problem. Opeth: quote: As someone who used to be an avid Ozzy fan, I know that things have to be looked at in context. This was definitely a song expressive of the sorrows of alcoholism and done from the viewpoint of someone who felt that suicide was the "only way out". It painted the darkness well ... but offered no solution but suicide, hence the title. One may say that a song expressing alcohol induced despair is "Anti-alcohol", but is it? I don't think so. Especially in light of songs like "flying high again" from Diary of a Madman, where Ozzy glorifies drug abuse quite openly. This "anti-alcohol" claim, was propaganda offered by the artist in defense, whenever charges were brought against him concering a teenager who committed suicide while listening to "Suicide Solution". It's hard for me to believe anyone really believes this is an anti-drug campaign. Simply put, one needs to be responsible in one's "expression". Many struggling with alchohol believed the fatalistic despair that was so hauntingly portrayed by Ozzy ... and it pushed them over the edge. Check the records. Again, it's also the overall character. As a once eager listener, I know that Ozzy's music is dark and deceptive, and it glorifies what is evil ... except there are a few bright spots like "So Tired", "Crazy Train", & "goodbye to romance". Noah quote: I did say that it was technically poetry. The "artistic" part is pure opinion ... I haven't been impressed, but I haven't given it much more than a precursory listen, due to the negative spirit of it. Mere popular response is no measure of what is truely exemplary poetry ... any more than the popularity of "Soap Operas" is a measure of what good drama is. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-05-2003 11:19 PM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"As someone who used to be an avid Ozzy fan, I know that things have to be looked at in context. This was definitely a song expressive of the sorrows of alcoholism and done from the viewpoint of someone who felt that suicide was the "only way out"." ~ Just like one interprets the bible one way while another the other way... You are incorrect in your interpretation. The song was about this fact - An alcoholic is on the slow road to commiting suicide. There is much sarcasm in that song. I can hear it. And unlike the bible, we do have the living author of those words within our midst who has explained what the song meant. All you can do is call him a liar. "This "anti-alcohol" claim, was propaganda offered by the artist in defense, whenever charges were brought against him concering a teenager who committed suicide while listening to "Suicide Solution"." ~ I literally spit my coffee and LOL when I read this.. Propaganda, you say? The only propaganda was the sludge that the teenager's lawyers and crazy religious freaks brought forth concerning a song of which they had no understand and needed to blame for the death. My quote: "This is the day and age when we blame everything and everyone else for all of our problems." To say that Ozzy's song caused the death of the teenager is ludicrous. If my memory serves me well, those same zealots believed that Ozzy "backmasked" suicidal messages in that song too - which Ozzy offered more "propagands" (cough cough) when he retorted, "If I could backmask messages in my records, I'd say, 'buy my records!'" "It's hard for me to believe anyone really believes this is an anti-drug campaign." ~ It's hard for me to believe that it is hard for you to believe that anyone could believe that this is an anti-drug campaign. Actually, it is just one song and not a campaign. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Opeth: quote: I never said that this was a song that was written to say "commit suicide". It is, as you say, about the alcholic's plight. But your point was that it was an "anti-alcohol" song ... If it is, he didn't do such a great job. And to see that, we don't need Ozzy's self explanation. It paints a picture of hopelessness for the alcholic, and offers no way out. Read the lyrics again. quote: I am not intimately familiar with the case. But IF this kid was really listening to the song during the suicide (as I have heard), then it is not unreasonable to see a connection. I have to admit it's not a song I would want to listen to during suicidal moments ... it would make the temptation that much greater. quote: I agree. No one attributes the sole cause of anything to a song. It's taking issue with the influence and irresponsibility on the part of a pop music artist who thinks he can say anything and sell it to kids (and he's not the only one). Opeth: quote: Perhaps. I'm certainly not for making everything the scapegoat, or denying individual responsibility. I think it's ludicrous to sue McDonald's for causing your heart disease. But it's also the day and age when we are in denial about alot of cause and effect, especially in the areas of ethics. If something doesn't chime with the spirit of moral relativism, it's an outmoded and even priggish suggestion. But we ignore a whole lot of common sense in our denials ... not to mention some "uncommon" sense of former generations. Consider these quotes ... "Through foolishness they deceived themselves into thinking that there was no right or wrong in music -- that it was to be judged good or bad by the pleasure it gave . . . a spirit of law-breaking." (Plato, Laws). "Music directly represents the passions or states of the soul --gentleness, anger, courage, temperance...If one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person." (Aristotle, Politics). "Music is essentially the manipulation of sound ... It has the power to make people feel sacred. It also has the power to make people feel profane. You know all the things they were saying about Rock 'n Roll in the early days, saying 'It's gonna subvert our youth. It's gonna make 'em all wanna have sex. It's gonna make em all go crazy.'? They were right." (Billy Joel, interview) Opeth, my whole point was not about one song anyway, it's about the general character of someone's music. So let's say you somehow redeem "Suicide Solution" as a semi-virtuous song (which I still can't see), well there's a lot more in Ozzy's repertoire to contend with. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-06-2003 10:30 PM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"I never said that this was a song that was written to say "commit suicide". It is, as you say, about the alcholic's plight. But your point was that it was an "anti-alcohol" song ... If it is, he didn't do such a great job." ~ That is your opinion and of course is not factual. When I first read those lyrics, the message that alcohol is a slow way to commit suicide rang true to me - loud and clear - therefore, I say he did a great job. "..And to see that, we don't need Ozzy's self explanation." ~ We? Are you multiplying? No, you are speaking for the Christian community, of course."It paints a picture of hopelessness for the alcholic, and offers no way out. Read the lyrics again." ~ Absolutely! It is about the hopelessness of being a drunk. The offer is this - what has happened to this person in the song could happen to you if you drink, now decide. "I am not intimately familiar with the case. But IF this kid was really listening to the song during the suicide (as I have heard), then it is not unreasonable to see a connection." ~ You really believe that? So, when Charles Manson killed after "misconstruing" the bible - maybe then the bible should be banned? Listening to the song had absolutely nothing to do with the suicide. Let's try this analogy: A person receives a mortal stabbing wound, the person is bleeding from this wound and knows that she is about to die, so this person tries different ways to cure herself, also others may try different cures on this person. Not all of the attempts make sense, as the person's state of mind is not necessarily coherent or "thinking straight." Finally, the person dies. Listening to Ozzy was merely an attempt to stop the bleeding, even if it encouraged the bleeding - the wound was already there, it was already a mortal wound. If you want to take the route you are taking, then I say the bible, along with other religious books, should be banned because they have caused more deaths and suicides then an lil' ol' Ozzy song ever could. "I have to admit it's not a song I would want to listen to during suicidal moments ... it would make the temptation that much greater." ~ Read my above story. "It's taking issue with the influence and irresponsibility on the part of a pop music artist who thinks he can say anything and sell it to kids (and he's not the only one)." ~ Then don't buy his record. And if you are a parent, don't allow your children to buy his record. But please, don't speak for all of us in this society. I considered your quotes. It still strikes me odd that christians/christianity enjoys quoted Plato - a pagan non-christian. Of course, now I would backtrack to the immortal soul debate and who actually originated that non-sensical theory. It is not the media. It is not the music. It is effective parenting that plato, aristotle, and yourself, should be rallying for. And quoting Billy Joel... come on! "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." [This message has been edited by Opeth (12-07-2003 08:49 AM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Stephen: I never said I was a huge Eminem fan. I know the songs that are played on the radio, and most of them, in my opinion, incorporate a talent for lyric-writing. Did I say he ahs some beautiful, gleaming message for kids around the world? No. I said: "Eminem is offensive and piggish... that's his image." It's exactly the same thing we went through with Marylin Manson: somebody shocks the world by being more offensive than most previous artists/rockers/rappers. They sell records. The eventually fade from view. Here, however, is a guy who has, in my opinion, more talent than Marylin Manson- maybe that's why his infamy has lasted so long. I truly do think he has a knack for writing good lyrics. That doesn't mean I approve of everything he says, I just think he has some talent. quote: First of all, In The Way I Am, I don't think Eminem is necessarily trying to portray himself in a positive light. He's basically pointing out his flaws, his natural tendency toward violence and the unpleasant. Drugs are part of that. Could it be seen as glamorizing... yeah, especially in the eyes of young kids. I can concede to that point. But I also think one of the reasons he's so popular is that he speaks to something that's already there... see, I hardly grew up in a rough area but there's plenty of little hoods in anyplace, I don't care how rich it is or how clean or how white. There's trouble lurking in parks after dark and there are kids who destroy things just to destroy them and kids who are bad just for the thrill of being bad... often because there's just nothing better (or at least, nothing they perceive as more fun) to do. And if I saw these things in a relatively sheltered youth, imagine what it's like in the neighborrhoods where crime is a way of survival. Eminem is something that urban white kids can reach out and grasp onto... a white rapper who seems to understand what it's like to live in a hard black neighborhood, who knows what it's like to be called a "wigger" for liking rap. I'm not saying this is a noble thing, or a beautiful thing to come up from, but it is an indication of a section of society that needs to be addressed... and Eminem or no Eminem, it's there. Opeth: Shut up and quit hijacking threads. You do enough bible and Christian-bashing in your own threads, you don't need to throw it in here where it wasn't even an issue. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Stephan: Should I ignore all of Bram Stoker's works, including "Dracula," simply because other novels, such as "Weird of the White Wyrm" makes liberal use of the "N" word and stereotypes Africans as a devious and malignant race? Of course not. I think it is a mistake to judge an artist's contributions solely upon the quality or content of his or her collective works. Sure, some of Eminem's songs are offensive, but I think even the most offensive lyrics do a fair job of portraying what is happening in much of urban America. Regardless, if you look at certain individual works of artists, I think even you would find something Eminem has written that appeals to you - if not in style, then perhaps in spirit. For example: quote: As I think you know, I have found myself in the midst of ugly fights with high stakes - my childhood life was never as trying as Eminem's, but I can identify with his struggle to rise above his circumstances to make the world a better place for himself and his family. Truth be told, sometimes it is the fire and spirit in songs like the above that have given me that extra spark I've needed. Sometimes I need to hear, "I'm using smarter tactics to overcome this slum / I won't become as dumb as some and succumb to scum ..." Having some small grasp of your worldview, isn't it at least conceivable that the work of Eminem play some providential role? Jim |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Shut up..." 1. I didn't even say anything. I only typed. You could of said, "Quit typing" instead. 2. Mind your own business. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"I considered your quotes. It still strikes me odd that christians/christianity enjoys quoted Plato - a pagan non-christian." Opeth How should, Plato, someone before Christ and Christianity be considered a "Non-Christian"? [This message has been edited by Essorant (12-08-2003 01:46 PM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Opeth: quote: If that's what the song is about, then it is, at best, ambiguous. The title itself "Suicide Solution" and the lyrics are rather misleading if Ozzy didn't mean to say that suicide is the only solution for the dilemma he describes. quote: Yep, I really believe that. And no, it is not at all similar to Charles Manson and his misuse of the Bible. In all such cases the text itself must be examined to see if it justifies or encourages the action ... the Bible doesn't encourage the Killing spree that Charlie indulged in. In fact it plainly calls it evil. But it's not unreasonable to say that Ozzy's lyrics fail to shun suicide as an option ... It's not even unreasonable to say that they suggest that there's no other way to escape. I'm not denying individual responsibility. I'm not saying that Ozzy "caused" anyone's suicide, as if things were that simple. But my point is ... from Oz's lyrics alone, I can justify suicide without contradicting the context of the song. But you cannot from the text of the Bible even begin to justify Helter Skelter. quote: You're talking to an RN. Great analogy! And attempts such as placing the stab wound lower than the heart, without a pressure dressing, would cause accelerated bleeding. Does the fact that others are ignorant of medical science, or that the victim is not coherent, justify the bad practice that accelerates death? In the medical community such wrong practices are typically shunned. What would happen if someone published this as the right thing to do, or the only thing that works with stab wounds? Ya think anyone would have a problem with that? quote: You considered them but haven't commented on them. If I were a non-Christian, would you still reprimand me for quoting Plato or Aristotle? Many Christians believe that truth is truth wherever it is found. Christians hold that much of these philosophers ideas were incomplete and that their systems are inadequate. But that doesn't mean that they were just "Wrong". If it's not an issue with me, why do you bring it up? Why is a "religious" concern brought in from a non-religious person like yourself? quote: Of course you would. quote: Some consider "effective parenting" to involve a measure of concern about media that could affect their children and others. quote: Uh ... yeah. And? Hush: quote: I will agree there. I think Eminem's lyrics are kind of like a symptom, indicating and exacerbating something that needs our attention. Jim: quote: Yeah, I guess it is conceivable. But when you have to wade through a dung hill to get an itty bitty diamond, my concerns are still valid. Those lyrics you quoted admittedly surprised me ... but in some way they were uncharacteristic of his typical deluge of lyrics. Finer moments, of course, should be encouraged, but their peeking through can never justify such lyrics as this in my opinion... "Take drugs, rape sluts, make fun of gay clubs Men who where makeup, get aware, wake up Get a sense of humor! Quit tryin' to sensor music this is for your kids amusement But don't blame me when little Eric jumps off of the terrace You should've been watching him Apparantly you ain't parents Cause I never knew I'd knew I'd get this big I never knew I'd knew I'd affect this kid I never knew I'd get him to slit his wrist I never knew I'd get him to hit this bitch" Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-08-2003 04:56 PM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
LR, Do you know by keeping this type of topic going, you are going to upset Hush and then she'll blame it on me? A one trick pony allows itself to be lead by those who are leading. Besides... I am known to know many tricks. "How should, Plato, someone before Christ and Christianity be considered a "Non-Christian"?" ~ Plato did not ever convert to christianity, therefore making him a pagan. the bible teaches not to learn from those who are non-christian because those who do not have the holy spirit residing in them are of a carnal mind and not of the mind of God. "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"If that's what the song is about, then it is, at best, ambiguous. The title itself "Suicide Solution" and the lyrics are rather misleading if Ozzy didn't mean to say that suicide is the only solution for the dilemma he describes." ~ Agreed. That is the sarcasm built into the lyrics, which can be understood by those who are able... Suicide Solution ~ If you are a person who is going to commit suicide, do it, if you choose not to do it right away and maybe really don't want to... alcohol is the slow way to do it without actually taking the responsibility of trying to do it, now. "Yep, I really believe that. And no, it is not at all similar to Charles Manson and his misuse of the Bible." ~ I see it differently. I see a troubled youth who turned to many different types of media, including Ozzy's song, and commited suicide. I see Mr. Manson as a troubled person who turned to the bible and understood it in a sense to justify his murders. No difference at all. "In all such cases the text itself must be examined to see if it justifies or encourages the action ... the Bible doesn't encourage the Killing spree that Charlie indulged in." ~ To you, it doesn't. The way your mind analyzes the bible, and of course to many others too... just like the song by Ozzy... the masses do not interpret it the way the suicidal youth did... however, like Manson and the youth, a median, looked upon as the answer to cure a fatal stabbing, can not do so. "But you cannot from the text of the Bible even begin to justify Helter Skelter." ~ And there is where your problem lies, Stephen... I or you cannot justify, but others could. I understand that concept, and easily so. "Does the fact that others are ignorant of medical science, or that the victim is not coherent, justify the bad practice that accelerates death?" ~ I believe you missed the point. The teen was already mortally stabbed before he listened to Ozzy's song. Listening to the song was a cry for help, even if it was incoherent to do so. "If I were a non-Christian, would you still reprimand me for quoting Plato or Aristotle?" ~ No, I wouldn't. The bible clearly teaches not to learn or listen to any knowledge derived from non believers, because they are not of the Spirit, but are of the carnal mind of mankind. "If it's not an issue with me, why do you bring it up? Why is a "religious" concern brought in from a non-religious person like yourself?" ~ Excellent question, indeed. Maybe it is becuase since I was a christian, I expect a christian to understand basic principled of christianity that I once held. "Of course you would." ~ No doubt. The author of the concept is your devil, himself. "Some consider "effective parenting" to involve a measure of concern about media that could affect their children and others." ~ I completely disagree. I would even when I was a hardcore Christian. Get rid of your TV set if you have to. Did not Jesus say, get rid of your eyes if they cause you to lust? Don't tell me that a family can not do this. "Uh ... yeah. And?" ~ The problem with modern day christianity... so is he a Christian... a true christian? [This message has been edited by Opeth (12-09-2003 01:09 AM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Go back and read Essorant's question again ... you must have missed the word "before". Plato lived from 428 BC to 348 BC. What do you mean he did not ever "convert" to Christianity, seeing there was no Christianity to convert to? quote: This is a misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches. You are probably basing this on scriptures like 1 Corinthians 1:20-24 "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." But keeping things in context, this is talking about the gospel, and being reconciled to God. Paul was saying that no religion or philosophy apart from God could reconcile us to God and make us right with him. Religion was embodied in the Jews, while philosophy was embodied in the Greeks. Does this mean that there is nothing true, or nothing to be learned from Pagan Philosophers? I don't think so. It means that their systems of thought, their contingent truths were not able to bridge the gap between humanity and God. But the Bible also teaches that God gave knowledge to all people, Pagans included, even a partial knowledge of himself. Consider this scripture ... "... since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made..." (Romans 1:19-20). This speaks of a knowledge of truth given to ALL men not just Christians or Jews ... even if it was not yet the knowledge that leads to salvation. Another thing to consider is the Magi in the nativity account of Jesus in the Gospels. These men were Pagan philosophers or astronomers who came to pay homage to Christ. Think poetically for a moment. This is suggestive symbolism. The sincere Gentile philosopher or seeker after wisdom or truth is not shunned, nor does he seek Christ because Christ is wholly different from what he already knows. He seeks Christ because in him is a fulfillment of all partial truths ... confirmation and expansion as well as correction. I am now reading a book by Chesterton. He describes this very well, mentioning the Magi who visited Jesus as his birth ... " ... tradition has wisely remembered them almost as unknown quantities, as mysterious as their mysterious and melodious names; Melchior, Caspar, Balthazar. But there came with them all that world of wisdom that had watched the stars in Chaldea and the sun in Persia; and we shall not be wrong if we see in them the same curiosity that moves all the sages. They would stand for the same human ideal if their names had really been Confucius or Pythagoras or Plato. They were those who sought not tales but the truth of things; and since their thirst for truth was itself a thirst for God, they also have their reward. But even in order to understand that reward, we must understand that for philosophy as much as mythology, that reward was the completion of the incomplete. Such learned men would doubtless have come, as these learned men did come, to find theselves confirmed in much that was true in their own traditions and right in their own reasoning... " (The Everlasting Man) And did you know that Paul quotes non-Christian Greeks in the Bible? Acts 17:28 "For in him we live and move and have our being" (Epimenides, Cretica, 600 B.C.) Acts 17:28 "We are his offspring" (Aratus, Phaenomena, 315-240 B.C.) and ... (Cleanthes, Hymn to Zeus, 331-233 B.C.) 1 Corinthians 15:33 "Bad company corrupts good character" (Menander, Thais, 342-289 B.C.) Titus 1:12 "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" (Epimenides, 6th century B.C.) It's just not accurate to say that the Bible teaches that learning from "Pagans" is wrong. That's an overly simplistic view, that doesn't take in account what the Bible teaches as a whole concerning knowledge in the world. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-09-2003 03:29 AM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I know. It was late. What I meant to say was that Plato was never a Christian, nor a Jew, nor ever called out by Yahweh to be imparted with His spirit - therefore his teachings are carnal in nature and not Holy Spirit inspired. Hey, believe it or not... I do know that I make mistakes. "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: But you're not acknowledging another basic teaching of the Bible ... that ALL true knowledge comes from God with whomever it resides. I never said that Plato or Aristotle preached the Gospel, or a fulness of spiritual truth, but still they had some amazing insights that are true. So, if Paul felt at liberty to quote Greek non-Christians whenever they were right, or whenever it suited the topic at hand, so will I. And I guess if Paul quoted Greek playwrights of his day, in keeping with culture, I might take the same liberty with the "Piano Man". I'm not territorial with knowledge, Opeth. I'll even quote you when you say something good. Later, Stephen. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
quote: Or with Eminem? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Haven't I done just that Jim? I've quoted him more than anyone else on this thread, including those Greek rappers, "Play Toby" and "Aris Total" Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-09-2003 03:34 PM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"But you're not acknowledging another basic teaching of the Bible ... that ALL true knowledge comes from God with whomever it resides." ~ By whose authority can it be said that Plato's philosophical teachings were inspired by your Christian God? Does not the bible teach that people worship Jesus in vain, believing in doctrines and commandments of men? Just who could of Jesus been talking about? Would it not be reasonable to include Plato as a possibility? Does not the Bible also warn Christians against believing in the philosophies of men uninspired and of a carnal mind? "I never said that Plato or Aristotle preached the Gospel, or a fulness of spiritual truth, but still they had some amazing insights that are true." ~ Says who? And by whose authority? "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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Brad Majors
since 2001-04-03
Posts 2647Georgia |
Truth is truth. If you believe God is the foundation of truth then all truth is God's truth. If not then it is truth in of itself that remains which can be found wherever you look. The whole idea that all truth is God's truth comes from the idea that God has reveled himself to all men. Varying philosphy and religion comes from man's interpetation of that. Of course in the Judeo-christian tradition their religion is the correct interpetation and all others are false. Regardless similar virtues and ideas are in many cultures and religions. Biblical authors used langange and examples from other mid east cultures that the people of that time period would recognize. But how this relates to wether rap is poetry is beyond me. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: The Bible teaches that all true knowledge comes from God, since God gave to humanity the power to reason. This is not the same as "inspiration" in the prophetic sense. It's just that these men discovered some truth by their own intellectual powers. And since there is no other "truth" to draw upon than what God created within nature, any real insight must also come from God . However there are other things given by God, which reasoning powers alone cannot arrive at ... that's where "inspiration" comes in. quote: Jesus was actually talking about religious Jews ... the Pharisees in particular, who devised many rules and elaborate interpretations of the Torah, and commanded that men should live by them, when God never intended it. Yes, you're ripping this out of context. quote: Oh, I did include Plato as a "possibility". I determined that the things he said in my quotes above do not contradict biblical truth, but rather confirm it, therefore I ruled out the possibility. You on the other hand expressed that I shouldn't quote him simply because he was a pagan philosopher period ... End of discussion. You're now trying to place possibility where you formerly placed certainty. And you never did discuss why or why not those particular quotes might be valid. You're trying to impose your percieved standards of how Christians should relate to "Pagans". But, as I have shown, your standard was not the same as even the Apostle Paul's. It's safe to say that you have misrepresented and misinterpreted how those of the faith should relate to non-Christian thinkers. quote: We've strayed just a bit I suppose. Stephen. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You suppose? This forums is starting to put me in mind of Bill Murray's Groundhog Day. Somebody, I think, needs to quit hitting the rewind button.  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: You're right Ron. I was looking for some degree of acknowledgement, but ... (slap!) My hand is now squarely off of that rewind button. Stephen. |
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eor Senior Member
since 2002-09-26
Posts 959blues & greys |
'rap' is not so much poetry, there are some 'rappers' that have a lot of poetic talent, and i comes through in their music but some also write poetry, like 2-pac, but the real poetry is in hip-hop, which is totaly different than rap, artist like common, mos-def, talib quali, to name a few, speak about subjects like life, love, respect of women, and the intircies of life. but who is to say what is poetry and whats not, from a literary stand point most would not be considered poetry. but hey we all can't be t.s. elliot can we... "So what befalls the flawless? |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Yeah, Ron, ya think? I sure do love it when people decide to divert a subject that has nothing to do with Christianity into an all-out attack on all things Godly. It's lots of fun. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
When Brad is away Philosophers stray [This message has been edited by Essorant (12-14-2003 11:45 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I think what happened is Opeth mistakenly responded here to his thread on 'Evil' and inadvertently everyone else followed along. |
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