How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Rap Music = Poetry ?   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Rap Music = Poetry ?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


25 posted 12-05-2003 10:06 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hush:  
quote:
It's as bad as proof-texting the bible for passages supporting your point as ignoring those that don't.



Please don't take this personally ... I know you like Eminem's music.  And I still like you       .  But I simply disagree with you about his lyrics.  I think any body of work, whether it be poetry, prose, or music, tends to have a general tone or character.   And the question is, what is the overall character of his art?  

Honestly, I think you would have to "proof-text" acceptable lyrics to support your point.  The bulk of his stuff is similar to the examples I posted.  I just don't have time, nor does Ron have space, for me to post it here.  That's why I recommend readers to check it out for themselves, otherwise it's just the testimony of fans against critics, and vice versa.  But this is not some point I want to go on and argue ad infinitum ... his work does speak for itself.  


"I sit back with this pack of Zig Zags and this bag
of this weed it gives me the (s) needed to be
the most meanest MC on this -- on this Earth
And since birth I've been cursed with this curse to just curse
And just blurt this berserk and bizarre (s) that works
And it sells and it helps in itself to relieve
all this tension dispensin these sentences
Gettin this stress that's been eatin me recently off of this chest
"


What is this but a justification for drug abuse and irresponsible public profanity?  So it makes him feel less stressed... alright then, all is well.  Sorry, this guy sells to a lot of young people, and his publicity makes him more responsible not less.  These lyrics though less brash, are still of the same ilk as those I posted.


Are there no redeeming qualities to Eminem? ... maybe, but not enough to tip the scales.


quote:
Well, I'm not saying let's all cry a river for poor scapegoat Eminem... he made his bed the way he wanted it, and now he lies in it... multi-platinum albums and all. Controversy = sales... Ozzy knows that, Marylin Manson knows that... hell, Britney and Madonna know that. To shock is to sell.



So do ends always justify the means?  Someone who doesn't care about their influence upon youth, and who does it to make a dollar, has a problem.




Opeth:  
quote:
What did you expect? The same has happened to Ozzy. Christian leaders went after the lyrics to his song, Suicide Solution, believing that it was a song which promoted suicide, yet it was an anti-alcohol song written by Ozzy while fighting his alcohol problems.

As someone who used to be an avid Ozzy fan, I know that things have to be looked at in context.  This was definitely a song expressive of the sorrows of alcoholism and done from the viewpoint of someone who felt that suicide was the "only way out".  It painted the darkness well ... but offered no solution but suicide, hence the title.  One may say that a song expressing alcohol induced despair is "Anti-alcohol", but is it?  I don't think so.  Especially in light of songs like "flying high again" from Diary of a Madman, where Ozzy glorifies drug abuse quite openly.  

This "anti-alcohol" claim, was propaganda offered by the artist in defense, whenever charges were brought against him concering a teenager who committed suicide while listening to "Suicide Solution".  It's hard for me to believe anyone really believes this is an anti-drug campaign.  

Simply put, one needs to be responsible in one's "expression".  Many struggling with alchohol believed the fatalistic despair that was so hauntingly portrayed by Ozzy ... and it pushed them over the edge.  Check the records.  

Again, it's also the overall character.  As a once eager listener, I know that Ozzy's music is dark and deceptive, and it glorifies what is evil ... except there are a few bright spots like "So Tired",  "Crazy Train", & "goodbye to romance".




Noah  
quote:
Perhaps Eminem's lyrics can sound "hellish" yet they are STILL poetry, and rather artistic poetry too. Obviously when he has sold over 30 million copies of his last two albums combined



I did say that it was technically poetry.  The "artistic" part is pure opinion ... I haven't been impressed, but I haven't given it much more than a precursory listen, due to the negative spirit of it.  Mere popular response is no measure of what is truely exemplary poetry ... any more than the popularity of  "Soap Operas" is a measure of what good drama is.


Stephen.  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-05-2003 11:19 PM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


26 posted 12-06-2003 11:37 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"As someone who used to be an avid Ozzy fan, I know that things have to be looked at in context.  This was definitely a song expressive of the sorrows of alcoholism and done from the viewpoint of someone who felt that suicide was the "only way out"."

~ Just like one interprets the bible one way while another the other way... You are incorrect in your interpretation. The song was about this fact - An alcoholic is on the slow road to commiting suicide. There is much sarcasm in that song. I can hear it. And unlike the bible, we do have the living author of those words within our midst who has explained what the song meant. All you can do is call him a liar.

"This "anti-alcohol" claim, was propaganda offered by the artist in defense, whenever charges were brought against him concering a teenager who committed suicide while listening to "Suicide Solution"."

~ I literally spit my coffee and LOL when I read this.. Propaganda, you say? The only propaganda was the sludge that the teenager's lawyers and crazy religious freaks brought forth concerning a song of which they had no understand and needed to blame for the death.

My quote: "This is the day and age when we blame everything and everyone else for all of our problems."

To say that Ozzy's song caused the death of the teenager is ludicrous. If my memory serves me well, those same zealots believed that Ozzy "backmasked" suicidal messages in that song too - which Ozzy offered more "propagands" (cough cough) when he retorted, "If I could backmask messages in my records, I'd say, 'buy my records!'"

"It's hard for me to believe anyone really believes this is an anti-drug campaign."

~ It's hard for me to believe that it is hard for you to believe that anyone could believe that this is an anti-drug campaign.  Actually, it is just one song and not a campaign.
  

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


27 posted 12-06-2003 10:25 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Opeth:  
quote:
The song was about this fact - An alcoholic is on the slow road to commiting suicide. There is much sarcasm in that song. I can hear it.


I never said that this was a song that was written to say "commit suicide".  It is, as you say, about the alcholic's plight.  But your point was that it was an "anti-alcohol" song ... If it is, he didn't do such a great job.   And to see that, we don't need Ozzy's self explanation.  It paints a picture of hopelessness for the alcholic, and offers no way out.  Read the lyrics again.


quote:
The only propaganda was the sludge that the teenager's lawyers and crazy religious freaks brought forth concerning a song of which they had no understand and needed to blame for the death.



I am not intimately familiar with the case.  But IF this kid was really listening to the song during the suicide (as I have heard), then it is not unreasonable to see a connection.  I have to admit it's not a song I would want to listen to during suicidal moments ... it would make the temptation that much greater.  


quote:
To say that Ozzy's song caused the death of the teenager is ludicrous


I agree.  No one attributes the sole cause of anything to a song.  It's taking issue with the influence and irresponsibility on the part of a pop music artist who thinks he can say anything and sell it to kids (and he's not the only one).



Opeth:  
quote:
"This is the day and age when we blame everything and everyone else for all of our problems."


Perhaps.  I'm certainly not for making everything the scapegoat, or denying individual responsibility.  I think it's ludicrous to sue McDonald's for causing your heart disease.  But it's also the day and age when we are in denial about alot of cause and effect, especially in the areas of ethics.  If something doesn't chime with the spirit of moral relativism, it's an outmoded and even priggish suggestion.  But we ignore a whole lot of common sense in our denials ... not to mention some "uncommon" sense of former generations.

Consider these quotes ...



"Through foolishness they deceived themselves into thinking that there was no right or wrong in music -- that it was to be judged good or bad by the pleasure it gave . . . a spirit of law-breaking." (Plato, Laws).



"Music directly represents the passions or states of the soul --gentleness, anger, courage, temperance...If one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person." (Aristotle, Politics).



"Music is essentially the manipulation of sound ... It has the power to make people feel sacred.  It also has the power to make people feel profane.  You know all the things they were saying about Rock 'n Roll in the early days, saying 'It's gonna subvert our youth.  It's gonna make 'em all wanna have sex.  It's gonna make em all go crazy.'?  They were right." (Billy Joel, interview)






Opeth, my whole point was not about one song anyway, it's about the general character of someone's music.  So let's say you somehow redeem "Suicide Solution" as a semi-virtuous song (which I still can't see), well there's a lot more in Ozzy's repertoire to contend with.


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-06-2003 10:30 PM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


28 posted 12-07-2003 08:44 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I never said that this was a song that was written to say "commit suicide".  It is, as you say, about the alcholic's plight.  But your point was that it was an "anti-alcohol" song ... If it is, he didn't do such a great job."

~ That is your opinion and of course is not factual. When I first read those lyrics, the message that alcohol is a slow way to commit suicide rang true to me - loud and clear - therefore, I say he did a great job.

"..And to see that, we don't need Ozzy's self explanation."

~ We? Are you multiplying?     No, you are speaking for the Christian community, of course.

"It paints a picture of hopelessness for the alcholic, and offers no way out.  Read the lyrics again."

~ Absolutely! It is about the hopelessness of being a drunk. The offer is this - what has happened to this person in the song could happen to you if you drink, now decide.

"I am not intimately familiar with the case.  But IF this kid was really listening to the song during the suicide (as I have heard), then it is not unreasonable to see a connection."

~ You really believe that? So, when Charles Manson killed after "misconstruing" the bible - maybe then the bible should be banned?  Listening to the song had absolutely nothing to do with the suicide. Let's try this analogy:

A person receives a mortal stabbing wound, the person is bleeding from this wound and knows that she is about to die, so this person tries different ways to cure herself, also others may try different cures on this person. Not all of the attempts make sense, as the person's state of mind is not necessarily coherent or "thinking straight."  Finally, the person dies.

Listening to Ozzy was merely an attempt to stop the bleeding, even if it encouraged the bleeding - the wound was already there, it was already a mortal wound.

If you want to take the route you are taking, then I say the bible, along with other religious books, should be banned because they have caused more deaths and suicides then an lil' ol' Ozzy song ever could.

"I have to admit it's not a song I would want to listen to during suicidal moments ... it would make the temptation that much greater."

~ Read my above story.  

"It's taking issue with the influence and irresponsibility on the part of a pop music artist who thinks he can say anything and sell it to kids (and he's not the only one)."

~ Then don't buy his record. And if you are a parent, don't allow your children to buy his record. But please, don't speak for all of us in this society.

I considered your quotes. It still strikes me odd that christians/christianity enjoys quoted Plato - a pagan non-christian. Of course, now I would backtrack to the immortal soul debate and who actually originated that non-sensical theory.

It is not the media. It is not the music. It is effective parenting that plato, aristotle, and yourself, should be rallying for. And quoting Billy Joel... come on!

  


"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-07-2003 08:49 AM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


29 posted 12-08-2003 12:44 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Stephen:

I never said I was a huge Eminem fan. I know the songs that are played on the radio, and most of them, in my opinion, incorporate a talent for lyric-writing. Did I say he ahs some beautiful, gleaming message for kids around the world? No. I said: "Eminem is offensive and piggish... that's his image."

It's exactly the same thing we went through with Marylin Manson: somebody shocks the world by being more offensive than most previous artists/rockers/rappers. They sell records. The eventually fade from view. Here, however, is a guy who has, in my opinion, more talent than Marylin Manson- maybe that's why his infamy has lasted so long. I truly do think he has a knack for writing good lyrics. That doesn't mean I approve of everything he says, I just think he has some talent.

quote:
"I sit back with this pack of Zig Zags and this bag
of this weed it gives me the (s) needed to be
the most meanest MC on this -- on this Earth
And since birth I've been cursed with this curse to just curse
And just blurt this berserk and bizarre (s) that works
And it sells and it helps in itself to relieve
all this tension dispensin these sentences
Gettin this stress that's been eatin me recently off of this chest"


What is this but a justification for drug abuse and irresponsible public profanity?...Sorry, this guy sells to a lot of young people,...


First of all, In The Way I Am, I don't think Eminem is necessarily trying to portray himself in a positive light. He's basically pointing out his flaws, his natural tendency toward violence and the unpleasant. Drugs are part of that. Could it be seen as glamorizing... yeah, especially in the eyes of young kids. I can concede to that point. But I also think one of the reasons he's so popular is that he speaks to something that's already there... see, I hardly grew up in a rough area but there's plenty of little hoods in anyplace, I don't care how rich it is or how clean or how white. There's trouble lurking in parks after dark and there are kids who destroy things just to destroy them and kids who are bad just for the thrill of being bad... often because there's just nothing better (or at least, nothing they perceive as more fun) to do. And if I saw these things in a relatively sheltered youth, imagine what it's like in the neighborrhoods where crime is a way of survival. Eminem is something that urban white kids can reach out and grasp onto... a white rapper who seems to understand what it's like to live in a hard black neighborhood, who knows what it's like to be called a "wigger" for liking rap.

I'm not saying this is a noble thing, or a beautiful thing to come up from, but it is an indication of a section of society that needs to be addressed... and Eminem or no Eminem, it's there.

Opeth:

Shut up and quit hijacking threads. You do enough bible and Christian-bashing in your own threads, you don't need to throw it in here where it wasn't even an issue.  
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


30 posted 12-08-2003 01:12 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Stephan:

Should I ignore all of Bram Stoker's works, including "Dracula," simply because other novels, such as "Weird of the White Wyrm" makes liberal use of the "N" word and stereotypes Africans as a devious and malignant race?  Of course not.

I think it is a mistake to judge an artist's contributions solely upon the quality or content of his or her collective works.  Sure, some of Eminem's songs are offensive, but I think even the most offensive lyrics do a fair job of portraying what is happening in much of urban America.  Regardless, if you look at certain individual works of artists, I think even you would find something Eminem has written that appeals to you - if not in style, then perhaps in spirit.  For example:

quote:
I'm going for broke, gambling and playing for keeps
Everyday in the streets, scrambling and paying for cheep
Praying for sleep
Dreaming with a watering mouth
Wishing for a better life for my daughter and spouse
In this slaughtering house, caught up in bouts
With the root of all evil
I've seen it turn beautiful people crude and deceitful
And make them do ****  illegal
For these Grant's and Jackson's
These transactions explain a man's actions
But in the mist of this insanity, I found my Christianity
Through God and there's a wish he granted me
He showed me how to cope with the stress
And hope for the best, instead of mope and depressed
Always groping a mess, of flying over the nest
To selling dope with the rest
I quit smoking cess to open my chest
Life is stressful inside this cesspool
Trying to wrestle, I almost bust a blood vessel
My little brother's trying to learn his mathematics
He's asthmatic, running home from school away from crack addicts
Kids attract static, children with automatics
Taking target practice on teens for Starter Jackets
I'm using smarter tactics to overcome this slum
I won't become as dumb as some and succumb to scum
It's cumbersome, I'm trying to do well on this Earth
But it's been Hell on this Earth since I fell on this Earth


As I think you know, I have found myself in the midst of ugly fights with high stakes - my childhood life was never as trying as Eminem's, but I can identify with his struggle to rise above his circumstances to make the world a better place for himself and his family.  Truth be told, sometimes it is the fire and spirit in songs like the above that have given me that extra spark I've needed.  Sometimes I need to hear, "I'm using smarter tactics to overcome this slum / I won't become as dumb as some and succumb to scum ..."

Having some small grasp of your worldview, isn't it at least conceivable that the work of Eminem play some providential role?

Jim
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


31 posted 12-08-2003 01:42 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Shut up..."

1. I didn't even say anything. I only typed. You could of said, "Quit typing" instead.

2. Mind your own business.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


32 posted 12-08-2003 01:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"I considered your quotes. It still strikes me odd that christians/christianity enjoys quoted Plato - a pagan non-christian."

Opeth
How should, Plato, someone before Christ and Christianity be considered a "Non-Christian"?

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-08-2003 01:46 PM).]

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


33 posted 12-08-2003 04:46 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Opeth:
quote:
Absolutely! It is about the hopelessness of being a drunk. The offer is this - what has happened to this person in the song could happen to you if you drink, now decide.


If that's what the song is about, then it is, at best, ambiguous.  The title itself "Suicide Solution" and the lyrics are rather misleading if Ozzy didn't mean to say that suicide is the only solution for the dilemma he describes.  


quote:
You really believe that? So, when Charles Manson killed after "misconstruing" the bible - maybe then the bible should be banned?


Yep, I really believe that.  And no, it is not at all similar to Charles Manson and his misuse of the Bible.  In all such cases the text itself must be examined to see if it justifies or encourages the action ... the Bible doesn't encourage the Killing spree that Charlie indulged in.  In fact it plainly calls it evil.  But it's not unreasonable to say that Ozzy's lyrics fail to shun suicide as an option ... It's not even unreasonable to say that they suggest that there's no other way to escape.

I'm not denying individual responsibility.  I'm not saying that Ozzy "caused" anyone's suicide, as if things were that simple.  But my point is ... from Oz's lyrics alone, I can justify suicide without contradicting the context of the song.  But you cannot from the text of the Bible even begin to justify Helter Skelter.


quote:
Let's try this analogy:
A person receives a mortal stabbing wound, the person is bleeding from this wound and knows that she is about to die, so this person tries different ways to cure herself, also others may try different cures on this person. Not all of the attempts make sense, as the person's state of mind is not necessarily coherent or "thinking straight."  Finally, the person dies.


You're talking to an RN.  Great analogy!   And attempts such as placing the stab wound lower than the heart, without a pressure dressing, would cause accelerated bleeding.  Does the fact that others are ignorant of medical science, or that the victim is not coherent, justify the bad practice that accelerates death?  In the medical community such wrong practices are typically shunned.  What would happen if someone published this as the right thing to do, or the only thing that works with stab wounds?  Ya think anyone would have a problem with that?


quote:
I considered your quotes. It still strikes me odd that christians/christianity enjoys quoted Plato - a pagan non-christian.



You considered them but haven't commented on them.  If I were a non-Christian, would you still reprimand me for quoting Plato or Aristotle?  Many Christians believe that truth is truth wherever it is found.  Christians hold that much of these philosophers ideas were incomplete and that their systems are inadequate.  But that doesn't mean that they were just "Wrong".

If it's not an issue with me, why do you bring it up?  Why is a "religious" concern brought in from a non-religious person like yourself?


quote:
Of course, now I would backtrack to the immortal soul debate and who actually originated that non-sensical theory.


Of course you would.


quote:
It is not the media. It is not the music. It is effective parenting that plato, aristotle, and yourself, should be rallying for.



Some consider "effective parenting" to involve a measure of concern about media that could affect their children and others.  


quote:
And quoting Billy Joel... come on!



Uh ... yeah.  And?






Hush:  
quote:
I'm not saying this is a noble thing, or a beautiful thing to come up from, but it is an indication of a section of society that needs to be addressed... and Eminem or no Eminem, it's there.
  

I will agree there.  I think Eminem's lyrics are kind of like a symptom, indicating and exacerbating something that needs our attention.


Jim:  
quote:
Having some small grasp of your worldview, isn't it at least conceivable that the work of Eminem play some providential role?



Yeah, I guess it is conceivable.  But when you have to wade through a dung hill to get an itty bitty diamond, my concerns are still valid.  Those lyrics you quoted admittedly surprised me ... but in some way they were uncharacteristic of his typical deluge of lyrics.

Finer moments, of course, should be encouraged, but their peeking through can never justify such lyrics as this in my opinion...



"Take drugs, rape sluts, make fun
of gay clubs
Men who where makeup, get aware, wake up
Get a sense of humor!
Quit tryin' to sensor music this is for your kids
amusement
But don't blame me when little Eric jumps off
of the terrace You should've been watching him
Apparantly you ain't parents

Cause I never knew I'd knew I'd get this big
I never knew I'd knew I'd affect this kid
I never knew I'd get him to slit his wrist
I never knew I'd get him to hit this bitch
"



Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-08-2003 04:56 PM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


34 posted 12-08-2003 07:54 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

LR,

Do you know by keeping this type of topic going, you are going to upset Hush and then she'll blame it on me?

A one trick pony allows itself to be lead by those who are leading.

Besides... I am known to know many tricks.

"How should, Plato, someone before Christ and Christianity be considered a "Non-Christian"?"

~ Plato did not ever convert to christianity, therefore making him a pagan. the bible teaches not to learn from those who are non-christian because those who do not have the holy spirit residing in them are of a carnal mind and not of the mind of God.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


35 posted 12-09-2003 12:57 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"If that's what the song is about, then it is, at best, ambiguous.  The title itself "Suicide Solution" and the lyrics are rather misleading if Ozzy didn't mean to say that suicide is the only solution for the dilemma he describes."

~ Agreed. That is the sarcasm built into the lyrics, which can be understood by those who are able... Suicide Solution ~ If you are a person who is going to commit suicide, do it, if you choose not to do it right away and maybe really don't want to... alcohol is the slow way to do it without actually taking the responsibility of trying to do it, now.  

"Yep, I really believe that.  And no, it is not at all similar to Charles Manson and his misuse of the Bible."

~ I see it differently. I see a troubled youth who turned to many different types of media, including Ozzy's song, and commited suicide. I see Mr. Manson as a troubled person who turned to the bible and understood it in a sense to justify his murders. No difference at all.

"In all such cases the text itself must be examined to see if it justifies or encourages the action ... the Bible doesn't encourage the Killing spree that Charlie indulged in."

~ To you, it doesn't. The way your mind analyzes the bible, and of course to many others too... just like the song by Ozzy... the masses do not interpret it the way the suicidal youth did... however, like Manson and the youth, a median, looked upon as the answer to cure a fatal stabbing, can not do so.

"But you cannot from the text of the Bible even begin to justify Helter Skelter."

~ And there is where your problem lies, Stephen... I or you cannot justify, but others could. I understand that concept, and easily so.

"Does the fact that others are ignorant of medical science, or that the victim is not coherent, justify the bad practice that accelerates death?"

~ I believe you missed the point. The teen was already mortally stabbed before he listened to Ozzy's song. Listening to the song was a cry for help, even if it was incoherent to do so.

"If I were a non-Christian, would you still reprimand me for quoting Plato or Aristotle?"

~ No, I wouldn't. The bible clearly teaches not to learn or listen to any knowledge derived from non believers, because they are not of the Spirit, but are of the carnal mind of mankind.

"If it's not an issue with me, why do you bring it up?  Why is a "religious" concern brought in from a non-religious person like yourself?"

~ Excellent question, indeed. Maybe it is becuase since I was a christian, I expect a christian to understand basic principled of christianity that I once held.

"Of course you would."

~ No doubt. The author of the concept is your devil, himself.

"Some consider "effective parenting" to involve a measure of concern about media that could affect their children and others."

~ I completely disagree. I would even when I was a hardcore Christian. Get rid of your TV set if you have to. Did not Jesus say, get rid of your eyes if they cause you to lust?
Don't tell me that a family can not do this.

"Uh ... yeah.  And?"

~ The problem with modern day christianity... so is he a Christian... a true christian?

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-09-2003 01:09 AM).]

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


36 posted 12-09-2003 03:15 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Plato did not ever convert to christianity


Go back and read Essorant's question again ... you must have missed the word "before".  Plato lived from 428 BC to 348 BC.  What do you mean he did not ever "convert" to Christianity, seeing there was no Christianity to convert to?  


quote:
the bible teaches not to learn from those who are non-christian because those who do not have the holy spirit residing in them are of a carnal mind and not of the mind of God.



This is a misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches.  You are probably basing this on scriptures like 1 Corinthians 1:20-24

"Where is the wise man?  Where is the scholar?  Where is the philosopher of this age?  Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?  For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.  Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified:  a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."


But keeping things in context, this is talking about the gospel, and being reconciled to God.  Paul was saying that no religion or philosophy apart from God could reconcile us to God and make us right with him.  Religion was embodied in the Jews, while philosophy was embodied in the Greeks.  


Does this mean that there is nothing true, or nothing to be learned from Pagan Philosophers?  I don't think so.  It means that their systems of thought, their contingent truths were not able to bridge the gap between humanity and God.  But the Bible also teaches that God gave knowledge to all people, Pagans included, even a partial knowledge of himself.  Consider this scripture ...


"... since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made..." (Romans 1:19-20).


This speaks of a knowledge of truth given to ALL men not just Christians or Jews ... even if it was not yet the knowledge that leads to salvation.


Another thing to consider is the Magi in the nativity account of Jesus in the Gospels.  These men were Pagan philosophers or astronomers who came to pay homage to Christ.  Think poetically for a moment.  This is suggestive symbolism.  The sincere Gentile philosopher or seeker after wisdom or truth is not shunned, nor does he seek Christ because Christ is wholly different from what he already knows.  He seeks Christ because in him is a fulfillment of all partial truths ... confirmation and expansion as well as correction.  I am now reading a book by Chesterton.  He describes this very well, mentioning the Magi who visited Jesus as his birth ...


" ... tradition has wisely remembered them almost as unknown quantities, as mysterious as their mysterious and melodious names; Melchior, Caspar, Balthazar.  But there came with them all that world of wisdom that had watched the stars in Chaldea and the sun in Persia; and we shall not be wrong if we see in them the same curiosity that moves all the sages.  They would stand for the same human ideal if their names had really been Confucius or Pythagoras or Plato.  They were those who sought not tales but the truth of things; and since their thirst for truth was itself a thirst for God, they also have their reward.  But even in order to understand that reward, we must understand that for philosophy as much as mythology, that reward was the completion of the incomplete.  Such learned men would doubtless have come, as these learned men did come, to find theselves confirmed in much that was true in their own traditions and right in their own reasoning... " (The Everlasting Man)



And did you know that Paul quotes non-Christian Greeks in the Bible?


Acts 17:28 "For in him we live and move and have our being" (Epimenides, Cretica, 600 B.C.)


Acts 17:28 "We are his offspring" (Aratus, Phaenomena, 315-240 B.C.) and ... (Cleanthes, Hymn to Zeus, 331-233 B.C.)


1 Corinthians 15:33 "Bad company corrupts good character" (Menander, Thais, 342-289 B.C.)


Titus 1:12 "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" (Epimenides, 6th century B.C.)



It's just not accurate to say that the Bible teaches that learning from "Pagans" is wrong.  That's an overly simplistic view, that doesn't take in account what the Bible teaches as a whole concerning knowledge in the world.


Stephen.


[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-09-2003 03:29 AM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


37 posted 12-09-2003 10:22 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I know. It was late. What I meant to say was that Plato was never a Christian, nor a Jew, nor ever called out by Yahweh to be imparted with His spirit - therefore his teachings are carnal in nature and not Holy Spirit inspired.  

Hey, believe it or not... I do know that I make mistakes.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


38 posted 12-09-2003 01:50 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
What I meant to say was that Plato was never a Christian, nor a Jew, nor ever called out by Yahweh to be imparted with His spirit - therefore his teachings are carnal in nature and not Holy Spirit inspired.  



But you're not acknowledging another basic teaching of the Bible ... that ALL true knowledge comes from God with whomever it resides.  I never said that Plato or Aristotle preached the Gospel, or a fulness of spiritual truth, but still they had some amazing insights that are true.  So, if Paul felt at liberty to quote Greek non-Christians whenever they were right, or whenever it suited the topic at hand, so will I.  And I guess if Paul quoted Greek playwrights of his day, in keeping with culture, I might take the same liberty with the "Piano Man".  I'm not territorial with knowledge, Opeth.  I'll even quote you when you say something good.   


Later,
Stephen.
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


39 posted 12-09-2003 02:01 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
I might take the same liberty with the "Piano Man".


Or with Eminem?
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


40 posted 12-09-2003 03:30 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Haven't I done just that Jim?  I've quoted him more than anyone else on this thread, including those Greek rappers, "Play Toby" and "Aris Total"    


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-09-2003 03:34 PM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


41 posted 12-09-2003 03:50 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"But you're not acknowledging another basic teaching of the Bible ... that ALL true knowledge comes from God with whomever it resides."

~ By whose authority can it be said that Plato's philosophical teachings were inspired by your Christian God?

Does not the bible teach that people worship Jesus in vain, believing in doctrines and commandments of men? Just who could of Jesus been talking about? Would it not be reasonable to include Plato as a possibility?

Does not the Bible also warn Christians against believing in the philosophies of men uninspired and of a carnal mind?

"I never said that Plato or Aristotle preached the Gospel, or a fulness of spiritual truth, but still they had some amazing insights that are true."

~ Says who? And by whose authority?

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

Brad Majors
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 04-03-2001
Posts 2735
Georgia


42 posted 12-09-2003 04:08 PM       View Profile for Brad Majors   Email Brad Majors   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad Majors

Truth is truth. If you believe God is the foundation of truth then all truth is God's truth. If not then it is truth in of itself that remains which can be found wherever you look. The whole idea that all truth is God's truth comes from the idea that God has reveled himself to all men. Varying philosphy and religion comes from man's interpetation of that. Of course in the Judeo-christian tradition their religion is the correct interpetation and all others are false. Regardless similar virtues and ideas are in many cultures and religions. Biblical authors used langange and examples from other mid east cultures that the people of that time period would recognize. But how this relates to wether rap is poetry is beyond me.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


43 posted 12-09-2003 05:27 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
By whose authority can it be said that Plato's philosophical teachings were inspired by your Christian God?



The Bible teaches that all true knowledge comes from God, since God gave to humanity the power to reason.  This is not the same as "inspiration" in the prophetic sense.  It's just that these men discovered some truth by their own intellectual powers.  And since there is no other "truth" to draw upon than what God created within nature, any real insight must also come from God .  However there are other things given by God, which reasoning powers alone cannot arrive at ... that's where "inspiration" comes in.  


quote:
Does not the bible teach that people worship Jesus in vain, believing in doctrines and commandments of men? Just who could of Jesus been talking about?



Jesus was actually talking about religious Jews ... the Pharisees in particular, who devised many rules and elaborate interpretations of the Torah, and commanded that men should live by them, when God never intended it.  Yes, you're ripping this out of context.


quote:
Would it not be reasonable to include Plato as a possibility?


Oh, I did include Plato as a "possibility".  I determined that the things he said in my quotes above do not contradict biblical truth, but rather confirm it, therefore I ruled out the possibility.  

You on the other hand expressed that I shouldn't quote him simply because he was a pagan philosopher period ... End of discussion.  You're now trying to place possibility where you formerly placed certainty.  And you never did discuss why or why not those particular quotes might be valid.  You're trying to impose your percieved standards of how Christians should relate to "Pagans".  But, as I have shown, your standard was not the same as even the Apostle Paul's.  It's safe to say that you have misrepresented and misinterpreted how those of the faith should relate to non-Christian thinkers.


quote:
But how this relates to wether rap is poetry is beyond me.


We've strayed just a bit I suppose.


Stephen.      
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


44 posted 12-09-2003 07:48 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You suppose?

This forums is starting to put me in mind of Bill Murray's Groundhog Day. Somebody, I think, needs to quit hitting the rewind button.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


45 posted 12-09-2003 09:49 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Somebody, I think, needs to quit hitting the rewind button.


You're right Ron.  I was looking for some degree of acknowledgement, but ...  

(slap!)  My hand is now squarely off of that rewind button.


Stephen.
eor
Senior Member
since 09-26-2002
Posts 968
blues & greys


46 posted 12-11-2003 08:49 PM       View Profile for eor   Email eor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for eor

'rap' is not so much poetry, there are some 'rappers' that have a lot of poetic talent, and i comes through in their music but some also write poetry, like 2-pac, but the real poetry is in hip-hop, which is totaly different than rap, artist like common, mos-def, talib quali, to name a few, speak about subjects like life, love, respect of women, and the intircies of life.  but who is to say what is poetry and whats not, from a literary stand point most would not be considered poetry.  but hey we all can't be t.s. elliot can we...

"So what befalls the flawless?
Look what I've built, it shines so beautifully now watch as it destroys me."

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


47 posted 12-11-2003 09:18 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Yeah, Ron, ya think?

I sure do love it when people decide to divert a subject that has nothing to do with Christianity into an all-out attack on all things Godly. It's lots of fun.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


48 posted 12-14-2003 11:40 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

When Brad is away
Philosophers stray


[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-14-2003 11:45 AM).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


49 posted 12-16-2003 05:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I think what happened is Opeth mistakenly responded here to his thread on 'Evil' and inadvertently everyone else followed along.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Rap Music = Poetry ?   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors