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Passions in Poetry

Sort of to do with Opeths post but...

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ESP
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0 posted 06-04-2003 08:01 AM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

I didnt want to get involved with it....however I do have a point of discussion:
Why can't I be christian and not have to say that all other religions are wrong? It's my biggest issue with Christianity. I might think it's the right path for me, but that doesnt make me right and others wrong. What they believe is right for them, that's what I think. I don't think religion should be forced on anyone. By all means share your views and so on, but in the end, belief is a personal thing. What do you all think about that? I would be interested to know....if I am disqualified from getting to know any God because I won't denounce the validity of other beliefs.

"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

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1 posted 06-04-2003 09:11 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

This is actually the way I attempt to run my life. My views of Christianity, religion, etc. run contrary to most others. I tend to define it as esoteric Christianity.
I also "good Christians" and most organized religion. Most "good Christians" I have ever met are as hypocritical as they can get. (NO, Not all). The way I see it, sitting in church no more makes you a Chrisitan than sitting in a garage makes you a Chevy. It's all abiout your actions.
I know not everyone will agree with me, and that is absolutely peachy with me. Just, please, allow me to have my own thoughts about it.

Day after day I'm more confused,
So I look for the light through the pouring rain...

Opeth
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2 posted 06-04-2003 09:12 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

ESP,

That is the problem with traditional christianiy. It is inherent in their beliefs that all other beliefs are wrong and therefore all others are to suffer forever because they do not believe in their saviour.

Please, do yourself a favor and never believe that bull. For those people to teach that to others is downright evil.

A loving and just God would never codemn you to suffer for eternity because you read and don't understand or you hear but it doesn't make sense or you see and it is an ugly sight.

God is not trying to save the world now.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (06-04-2003 09:13 AM).]

jbouder
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3 posted 06-04-2003 12:03 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

ESP:

quote:
Why can't I be christian and not have to say that all other religions are wrong?


I think you are asking the wrong question.  First, your question suggests that, in order to be a Christian, you must say all other religions are wrong.  Becoming a Christian is not like reciting a Masonic oath.  Rather, what becoming a Christian, or a Moslem or Buddhist for that matter, will inevitably entail is your asking difficult questions about your faith. I think some people prefer comfort to inquisitiveness and I don’t have a problem with that … unless, of course, those who prefer comfort suggest that those who are being inquisitive are somehow doing something wrong.

And if the discussion ends there, where does that leave us?

Ringo:

quote:
Just, please, allow me to have my own thoughts about it.


I don’t believe anyone has suggested that you are not entitled to have your own thoughts about it.  However, this is a Philosophical discussion forum and if you put your own thoughts out there and imply that those thoughts are superior to others because “Most ‘good Christians’ [you] have ever met are as hypocritical as they can get,” then why shouldn’t your proposal be subjected to tests of truth?

Or perhaps that is precisely what you don’t want to happen?

Geeze … tough crowd … I’m not sure what’s worse … having someone suggest you might be wrong or being called an evil hypocrite.     Fortunately for we Lutherans, we believe all people, Lutherans included, are evil hypocrites and pretty much say just that every Sunday morning at the beginning of the liturgy.  So I take no offense.  

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (06-04-2003 12:05 PM).]

ESP
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4 posted 06-04-2003 12:22 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

Ringo:
I adhere to the morals and values that Christianity puts forward, but I don't go to Church and like you I don't believe that going to Church makes you a Christian. I know Church is supposed to be a sharing of Faith to some degree, but I have found it to be absolutely suffocating when I have gone. Probably because singlemindedness terrifies me.

(Drifting on to general....)

We are all so different, I hate when people try and say everyone should believe the same thing or suffer. Why should that be? I know that is an inherent part of Christianity, all unbelievers go to hell. That I can't bear, why should I be going to heaven and my agnostic/atheist/other faith friends go to "Hell"....besides, with some, their religions say they are going to "heaven" too, right? So what are there x number of different Heavens, different spheres and the same number of different Hells, all overlapping, just to accommodate the Human "My way and only mine is right" syndrome? Saying all this stuff probably ejects me from Christianity as I speak, but I will still continue to adhere to the morals and values that I've learned from it. Hmmm I bet God would understand all this better than humans seem to anyway. Just...I don't think Heaven would be all that great anyway, if x number of your loved ones were floating around elsewhere.....let's all float together, whichever way we chose to get there!! Incidentally, how many "rules" has God set down and how many have men made up along 'Christian' lines? I'm not trying to lean either way, as I have not enough theological knowledge to merit that, but still thought I could chuck it in the air for your able minds to catch and worry!!!
Sorry if the structure of this response is somewhat lacking, I have noticed that all of yours quote previous responses and so on and so forth, but amongst other things I havent the HTML for that! Sorry if this bothers any of you. But thank you to those who have replied very very much        


"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

[This message has been edited by ESP (06-04-2003 12:23 PM).]

Opeth
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5 posted 06-04-2003 12:34 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

ESP,

Don't fret it. Unless you or your friends are incorrigibly wicked people, you have nothing to worry about when you die.

Opeth
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6 posted 06-04-2003 02:25 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Geeze … tough crowd … I’m not sure what’s worse … having someone suggest you might be wrong or being called an evil hypocrite."

~ If christians, practicing traditional christianity believe that those who do not accept Christ in this lifetime are doomed for eternal damnation, then they are basically saying that those who are doomed are evil in many more ways than just in their hypocracy.

  

"Fortunately for we Lutherans, we believe all people, Lutherans included, are evil hypocrites and pretty much say just that every Sunday morning at the beginning of the liturgy.  So I take no offense."

~ For sure, but the difference is that your evil doings are protected by the "blood of Christ" (license to sin) and you all believe that, and those evil doings of all other faiths are not, so they are doomed for eternity.

I guess you are saying that they are wrong and evil.       

[This message has been edited by Opeth (06-04-2003 02:29 PM).]

jbouder
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7 posted 06-04-2003 02:33 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

License to sin ... heh ... you're just trying to provoke me.  Won't work.
Opeth
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8 posted 06-04-2003 02:39 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

What else would you call it?

The only difference between a christian and a moral person of another faith is the christian's license to sin.
ESP
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9 posted 06-04-2003 03:07 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

Opeth: I've always thought it seemed the easy way out...."I can sin, as long as I repent after, then Christ's blood makes it all ok" ...but then, I guess the hard part is believeing that fully and having faith in it, so it's not so easy after all.....
Did I just contradict myself? Well, it made sense when I thought it


"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

[This message has been edited by ESP (06-04-2003 03:07 PM).]

Opeth
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10 posted 06-04-2003 03:27 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Opeth: I've always thought it seemed the easy way out...."I can sin, as long as I repent after, then Christ's blood makes it all ok" ...but then, I guess the hard part is believeing that fully and having faith in it, so it's not so easy after all..."

~ But that is the problem with traditional christianity, it doesn't hold people accountable for sinning, like Jesus did. What did Christ tell the prostitute after all of those who had thrown stones departed?

He said, "Go, and sin no more."  

Traditional christianity would have one believe that Christ didn't really mean what he said to the prostitute either.
jbouder
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11 posted 06-04-2003 03:43 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
Traditional christianity would have one believe that Christ didn't really mean what he said to the prostitute either.


That's a load of crap, Opeth.  You quoted half the Bible in the other thread ... are you telling me you've never pulled one of your bricks from Romans 6?

Your assertion is so blatantly false that you may as well have said light travels at 10 miles per hour in a vacuum. You clearly have no interest in serious Biblical scholarship ... why do you persist?

Jim
ESP
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12 posted 06-04-2003 04:01 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

Opeth: I would imagine that Christians do go and try to sin no more, once they repent from the sins they've committed already, but being human they don't succeed....so then they sin again and repent again it's ok again.....I guess that's how it will be until humans draw close to the images of perfection that they believe in.....
*Slinks off, hoping that nothing too ignorant has slipped into this response*


"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

[This message has been edited by ESP (06-04-2003 04:48 PM).]

Opeth
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13 posted 06-04-2003 04:01 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"That's a load of crap, Opeth.  You quoted half the Bible in the other thread..."

~ Come on, Jim. That wasn't even close to half of the Bible, unless you were not actually speaking in a literal sense and only figuratively...hmmm, I wonder how those who study the Bible distinguish between the two?

"... are you telling me you've never pulled one of your bricks from Romans 6?"

~ What bricks are you talking about, Jim? Since you have said that I have thrown so many, I have no idea which brick(s) you are talking about.

"Your assertion is so blatantly false that you may as well have said light travels at 10 miles per hour in a vacuum."

~ What is false, that traditional Christianity teaches that men are to weak to uphold the laws of God or that the laws of God have been done away with? If that is the case, then of course, light does travel at 10 mph.

"You clearly have no interest in serious Biblical scholarship ... why do you persist?"

~ For sure. Certainly not your false doctrine/dogma "scholarship" that you are learning, I have no interest in.

But who pulled your tail and told you to bark? I was speaking to ESP and trying to reassure him that if "christians" tell him he is going to hell if he doesn't accept their Christ, to not fret it - and his friends too.

Smile!
ESP
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14 posted 06-04-2003 04:04 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

Pssssssst Opeth: I'm a girl not a bloke! Just thought I'd clear that up, n thanks for all your response.....
Liz

"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

Opeth
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15 posted 06-04-2003 04:08 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Opeth: I would imagine that Christians do go and try to sin no more, once they repent from the sins they've committed already, but being human they don't succeed....so then they sin again and repent again it's ok again..."

~ Excellent reply, ESP. In a way, you are correct. However, traditional christianity teaches that there are no more laws to follow and that Jesus got rid of laws.

Without law, how can there be sin? The bible clearly defines what sin is, not man.

And if, like you say, a christian repents and sins, yet continues to sin the same sin -knowing what sin is yet continuing to sin - then that christian most likely has not received the true Holy Spirit of God.

I hear so many people around say that it is okay for them to sin, because they just can't help themselves. I ask them what is sin, I get a myriad of answers that contradict answers from others. This also has happened to me when I asked church leaders, "What is sin?"

"..I guess that's how it will be until humans draw close to the images of perfection that they believe in....."

~ Well, I don't know about that, but I know the Bible teaches that living and refraining from sin can be accomplished if one is truly called and chosen by God.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (06-04-2003 04:11 PM).]

Opeth
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16 posted 06-04-2003 04:09 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Ooops! Sorry, Liz. I didn't know.
ESP
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17 posted 06-04-2003 04:19 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

No problem, but it was just kinda funny being referred to as a bloke, ya know?? Hehe, but thanks again for all the replies...hmm have I any more questions to air here...
Well, can I believe in God but quibble with some aspects of interpretations of Christianity? Or is that a contradiction in itself?
Hmm, yes I suppose you are right the bible does teach that its possible to live and refrain from sinning BUT it also teaches that all men are sinners, right? So.....?
Ok I better shut up again for a while....
Peace, Liz xx

"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

Opeth
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18 posted 06-04-2003 04:25 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Liz,

"No problem, but it was just kinda funny being referred to as a bloke, ya know??"

~ Yep.  

"Hehe, but thanks again for all the replies..."

~ You are welcome.

"Well, can I believe in God but quibble with some aspects of interpretations of Christianity? Or is that a contradiction in itself?"

~ Yes & no, it is not a contradiction.
  
"Hmm, yes I suppose you are right the bible does teach that its possible to live and refrain from sinning BUT it also teaches that all men are sinners, right?"

~ Yes.

"So.....?"

~ So...if one receives the Holy Spirit of God, that Spirit will guide them and teach them what sin is and how to avoid it. Of course, it doesn't mean that the person will stumble.

"Ok I better shut up again for a while..."

~ I don't think you need to, but that is up to you.  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (06-04-2003 04:25 PM).]

ESP
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19 posted 06-04-2003 04:33 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

Yes and no????? Opeth!!!!! heheh......but it's like, I've thought "ok lil miss (addressing self i point out) if you are so anti-certain christian aspects, then forget God and find another religion" but then the thought of that is really weird. Cos I do believe in God but I'm just terrible at the whole Christian bit, like church and other stuff I've mentioned already. I think when I have more time (these first year uni exams SUCK!) I'd like to explore different religions and see what they are like, because my knowledge of them all, Christianity included I guess, isn't that great. But I still can't imagine not believing in God...but it's like maybe He's not quite the Christian version or something, I dunno, like He is, but at the same time, I reckon he wouldn't mind my quibbles.....but hey I can imagine the bible bashers jumping on me for saying that, so pretend I didn't....
Hehe, ok so I haven't shut up yet...but this is an interesting thread for me...
Liz xxx

"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

ESP
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20 posted 06-04-2003 04:33 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

only "quite" was meant to be in italics.....i suck at HTML.....
Liz x

"Gorge the honey from life, and live through the stomach aches knowing they will pass..." ~Liz Pinard 2003~

quatro
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21 posted 06-04-2003 04:58 PM       View Profile for quatro   Email quatro   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit quatro's Home Page   View IP for quatro

I just wanted to say a few words on this.  I hope you don't mind.

Some of us are fortunate enough to have been born to a family that faithfully practices the religion we were born into.  As children we begin to learn what our relegion is all about and learn to be comfortable in it.

If we are born to a family who does not faithfully practice their religion, then we become lost.  This is when we begin to venture off and explore other religions and try to find our way.  Then we become even more confused then when we were when we first realized we were lost.

Man was given "free will" and we choose our own path.  We may choose to find HIM or not.  We may choose to sin or not.  Being able to accept other religions without question is "mature".

quatro
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22 posted 06-04-2003 05:38 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quatro-
At the risk of being accused of playing both sides of the field, I have to both agree and disagree with you.
I WILL agree that most everyone needs a firm system of beliefs to keep from feeling lost. I was raised in the Catholic church, and was a very devout practitioner, including being an alter boy, doing the bible readings, and becoming a lay minister, as well as the odd CCD (religion) class. As I began to grow within myself, and to become comfortable with my place in the world, I began to question EVERYTHING... including the Father and my association with him. I them began to see all of the inconsistancies within the Church, and began to look elsewhere. In short, I was lost (as you put it). I checked out several of the protestant religions, and found the "Christians" in most of them to be either two busy patting themselves on the back, or fighting amongst themselves to be doing His work. Then there were the ones that were complaining about how they were about the Lord's work, and then they would sit around and gossip about how much X or Y was a sinner, and then they would go right on doing the sams things when they thought no one was looking.
Or they would sit and complain about what this or the other wore to services. Maybe I was too screwed up to notice, however I thought we were there for a worship service nd not a fashion show... and that was almost EVERY church I went to.
I checked out the Wiccan belief system, and found it to be interesting, yet still not in line with my beliefs...
I finally sat down, read my bible, and did something I should have been doing all along... I talked to God and asked him just what it was he wanted from me. I figured out my own core beliefs, and actually found a few others that have very similar beliefs, and now I am once again "found". I am not following the tenents of my "original" faith, yet ,I am still quite happy attempting to live my life for Him through the agreement I made with Him.

Day after day I'm more confused,
So I look for the light through the pouring rain...

quatro
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23 posted 06-04-2003 06:20 PM       View Profile for quatro   Email quatro   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit quatro's Home Page   View IP for quatro

Ringo,

I was also born and raised in the Catholic faith and while I was young, I was comfortable.  I admit that as I grew older, my will grew stronger and I wanted something more.  I realized that not all of my friends wer Catholic and I wanted to know more about their religion.  Although Catholic is still what I claim, I do feel for something more.  For now, I am content in knowing that my God is a forgiving God and I do my best to follow in His example.  I understand there are many different religions out there and if one of them wants to tell me about it, I will listen open mindedly and not pass judgement.  Who knows...maybe I will convert.  But I also feel I should mention that I don't agree with those who "push" their religion or "talk down" another's.  One is not better than the other...just more comfortable.

Also I enjoyed reading your response and I am happy for you that you have found peace in your new place.

quatro
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24 posted 06-04-2003 09:25 PM       View Profile for Kamala   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kamala

ESP -- can i just say that i think you're definitely on the right track.  as far as i'm concerned... of course god wouldn't mind your quibbling.  seriously, if he's up there managing... oh... EVERYTHING... he's not gonna start nit-picking about quibbles.

as far as the whole license to sin bit goes... i rather think that sin is not the thing to focus on, but forgiveness.  i don't think christ gave people a license to sin, he just ensured forgiveness for sins.  at least as far as i know.  and that's a different thing altogether.  and really, in terms of forgiveness in life, i've found that one is forgiven when one forgives onesself.  and in that sense, you don't necessarily need christ.  (preparing for the onslaught for that comment)

but anyway...

i've met lots of buddhists who are better christians than christians, lots of christians who are better buddhists than buddhists, and some sufis who are better christians and buddhists... and so on.  we really are all floating up to somewhere together.  i liked that thought, by the way.

though, actually, i don't think there's a heaven and a hell.  and when it all comes down to it, i don't think there's absolute good and absolute evil either (i.e. God/Satan).  but there's definitely something and i get along with that something rather well.  we meet Truth and come to peace with it in our own ways.  there ya have it.

now... quatro... re: the following.

If we are born to a family who does not faithfully practice their religion, then we become lost.  This is when we begin to venture off and explore other religions and try to find our way.  Then we become even more confused then when we were when we first realized we were lost.

i was raised in a house without a religion and this isn't how i'd put it.  everyone searches whether they're born into a path or not.  in my experience, i've been very fortunate to always have felt guided in my path.  i ended up a tibetan buddhist, but i also studied christianity and judaism and i know a fair amount about islam and hinduism as a result of other studies.  anyway -- i'm actually really grateful that i WASN'T born into a religion.  it's really allowed me to develop my own individual will in spiritual matters, and i find that i'm more capable of relativism and open-mindedness when it comes to others' beliefs than i might otherwise have been.

-------
Then there were the ones that were complaining about how they were about the Lord's work, and then they would sit around and gossip about how much X or Y was a sinner, and then they would go right on doing the sams things when they thought no one was looking.

SOOOO funny.  i love those folks.

oki-day -- skedaddling.

kamala
 
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