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Passions in Poetry

Atum and Adam

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Essorant
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0 posted 12-01-2002 12:41 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Have you ever wondered of a signifigance/connection in Adam the first man of the bible and the first God of Egyptian Mythology Atum who was creator portrayed as a man, having such similar names thus?  

Could there be a possibility that Adam was really a God?!

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-01-2002 12:46 PM).]

Denise
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1 posted 12-01-2002 06:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Essorant,

Actually, I'd never heard of the mythological Egyptian god, Atum. I am more familiar with Greek mythology.

No, I don't believe that he was a God. I do believe, though, that it is possible that the Egyptians invented a "god" to worship, either drawing from the creation account or maybe the similar name is just pure coincidence.
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2 posted 12-02-2002 02:55 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

I'll have to do some research on that one... never heard of Atum either?


I have to agree with Denise however ... If we are to go by the texts and attempt to stay true to original intent, Adam was not seen as a "god".  He was given much beauty and authority however, being "created in the image of God".  But whenever He, along with his wife Eve, ate the fruit of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, it seems to have been somewhat of an attempt to deify himself.  Remember how the serpent said "... your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil"?  This was a lure into a carnal attempt to become what he was not... to be unsatisfied with a lavish creaturely glory and reach for what belonged to God alone.  Anyway, this is the spirit of the original story, I think.  


Stephen.
Essorant
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3 posted 12-02-2002 03:55 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But the Egyptian texts go further back than the bible.
And Tefnut Atum's daughter- the first Godess- is described to have been spat out of his rib and out of his body.  This is very similar to Eve coming from Adams body.

Atum and Adam may be the same being,  God and Human in one!

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-02-2002 11:39 AM).]

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4 posted 12-02-2002 05:34 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

It is not unusual at all to find that relgions borrow one from the other and that names get changed as they do. If you study many religious beliefs you will find there is a cross polination of ideas and of stories. Christmas for example being celebrated shortly after the Winter Solstice is not a coincidence, but a way early christians took older pagan celebrations and adopted them to the new teachings they embraced.

As for god and man... I think that depends on how you define god and how you define man... but I think the decline of gods has been documented in many myths and once they declined, they dies or became mortal. Again a recurring theme in myths of god and creation.

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5 posted 12-03-2002 11:32 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant

From what I've read. "Atum" made his offspring from his spittle, not from his rib.  But I do see the possibility of Adam as a true historical figure, being made into mythology through Egyptian Lore.  Though the Biblical account is emphatic that Adam is not God, and is not the creator, it is interesting that the result of eating the forbidden fruit would be "...becoming as God" in a perverted sense.  Adam's aspiration in eating, was to become as God.  Biblically speaking, this was his sin.  Thus it would not surprise me if the historical Adam came to be worshiped through misconception as a god.  

One thing I see through Pagan mythology is the presence or "shadow" of the truth.  An example would be the mystery religions where an agricultural "god" died and came back every year in a dramatization.  When Christ came, he claimed to be reality of all shadows, and reflected most perfectly that which was dimly apprehended through nature.  Since all things were "created by him and for him",  it is no wonder that we see the principle of his death and ressurection even in the dying and sprouting of seed.  Some would argue that Christ is derived from nature.  But if the Bible is true, nature is derived from Christ... even the "nature" of pagan mythology.  Interesting topic indeed.


Stephen.  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-03-2002 11:33 AM).]

Opeth
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6 posted 12-03-2002 11:59 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Christmas for example being celebrated shortly after the Winter Solstice is not a coincidence, but a way early christians took older pagan celebrations and adopted them to the new teachings they embraced."

But what does God say about this practice? Does God condone the taking of pagan celebrations and adopting them to praise Him?
Will He accept the worshipping on these pagan adopted days?

Heb 13:8

This states that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So if God speaks directly about a subject matter in the past, one can be sure His feelings are the same today.

Deut 12:1-8

God tells the Israelites that one cannot worship Him according to the ways and customs of the pagans. God is the same today, yes.

Deut 12:30-33

Here, God tells the Israelites specifically that they cannot worship Him according the the ways and customs of men.

"How did these nations serve their god? I will also do likewise (X-mas, Easter)."


And what did God say to the Israelites?

"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates, they have done to their gods..."


So, has God changed the way He wants to be worshipped? Is it okay now for us to worship Him according to pagan traditions of men, but was not okay for the Israelites?

God/Jesus is the same as yesterday, as today, as in the future. He will never change.  

Hos 2:11

Here is where God states that He will put an end to these abominations, after the Second Coming, for sure.

"I will also cause her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her (Not His Sabbath, BUT) her sabbaths - all her appointed feasts (X-mas, Easter, etc),"
Essorant
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7 posted 12-03-2002 12:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

There are some different stories.  Some say Tefnut came from his mucus or spittle; others from from his "seed" that he stirred out.  
Another nickname is Nin-ti where as I understand "ti" means "rib" in the language from my Mythology textbook.  I'm not sure however what Nin means.  So perhaps she was considered from the rib, or his actual rib?

Yes definitly there is the shadow of truth in myths I believe to be found.   It is a connection where they all seem to touch upon each other a bit, and it shows how unique the human mind is to perceive things so diversly around it...

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-03-2002 12:38 PM).]

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8 posted 12-03-2002 12:44 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

"Christmas for example being celebrated shortly after the Winter Solstice is not a coincidence, but a way early christians took older pagan celebrations and adopted them to the new teachings they embraced."

But what does God say about this practice? Does God condone the taking of pagan celebrations and adopting them to praise Him?
Will He accept the worshipping on these pagan adopted days?
You are asking me for God's intent, and while you offer scripture to defend your view of this, one has to accept the scripture quoted as being true for your arguments to have any legitimate hold on an answer. I applaud your faith those writing are true... but do not believe them to be infallible myself so can not accept them as "proof"

As for legends of Adam and Eve, or the great flood, or many other tales recounted in the bible, one has only to look into the earlier civilizations preceding Christianity to find links from all sorts of cultures that were modified and or changed to fit what were then new beliefs. History and legends have a way of repeating themselves and of being re-written.
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9 posted 12-03-2002 12:50 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Fair enough, Cpat Hair. I admire your logic.
Essorant
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10 posted 12-03-2002 12:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It seems all religions are the same cloud of matter, just in different shapes.  Some people put their head into it more than others and more into one place,  thus the cloud forever casts a different shadow to evey each.

Sometimes I think it is the way the whole universe is--Just a cloud that is of a spectrum of matter that changes through shapes and cycles.  Other than cycles in force there maybe no reason or sophistication in the universe except for on worlds.  We worldly beings may be in this way more Gods than we have ever credited...

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-03-2002 01:30 PM).]

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11 posted 12-03-2002 02:01 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

It seems all religions are the same cloud of matter, just in different shapes.  Some people put their head into it more than others and more into one place,  thus the cloud forever casts a different shadow to evey each


a good analogy... but I think they are a progressive adoption of what was before and what is now. Not the same as new things are being added in  a slow way, to incorporate the now into what was. Still there are many common threads throughout and how you vies or what you believe is dependent on which of the threads you decide to weave together.

Once woven, we wrap them around ourselves and may like the child who has a comforting blanket, not want to give it up, even though we now know there are others to choose from.

jbouder
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Or more accurately, that many ancient religions sprung from a common source.  I find there are some interesting parallels between Atum and Adam ... except, of course, that Atum got the better of his serpent.

Essorant ... have you considered that the Egyptian Atum was a deified Adam ... a myth that grew from the same oral tradition that passed to the Hebrews?  Merely speculating here, of course.
Essorant
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13 posted 12-04-2002 01:05 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Jbouder

You might be right.
If that happened though isn't it unfortunate the lustre and the high esteem that Adam was once beheld with in Egypt was taken off so throughly by other people to make of Adam a coarse being of feeble mortality which makes us thus coarse and feeble as well.  Yet there is still the claim that he lived over 900 years?  If the writers of the bible saw him as only man how could they claim him to have lived so long?  Nothing but being divine as well could afford a man a life so long.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-04-2002 01:07 AM).]

jbouder
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14 posted 12-04-2002 08:15 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Essorant:

Interesting point.  But if you read the Genesis account of Adam's life, I think it is more significant that he died than that he lived 900 years.  One might be just as disappointed that a historical Adam, a man, would be elevated to divinity, thereby diminishing mankind's very special relationship to the one true God ... created for the purpose and ability to know and relate to God.

The Bible doesn't explain the reason for the longevity of Adam, Eve and their offspring, but it is very clear on the reason for their eventual deaths.  Mortality is the result of sin and death is something all mortals will experience without divine intervention.

Do I believe that Adam was once immortal?  Sure.  Do I believe that he shared in the divine attributes of God?  I don't think that is supportable.

Just my opinion, of course.  I wasn't there.

Jim
Opeth
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15 posted 12-04-2002 08:20 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Do I believe that Adam was once immortal?  Sure."

~ Where did you ever get that idea?
Stephanos
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16 posted 12-04-2002 12:02 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

I would want to suggest something similar to what Jim has said.  That the Egyptian myths could be an unhappy deification of a historical figure.  Though the account of Genesis was given to Moses by divine revelation, it is an account of events long before.  And believing as I do in the certainty of divine revelation, I think Genesis most accurately reflects human nature... not something to be worshipped, though created with great glory and purpose.  And through the fall, it also cogently explains our present situation with futility, sin, pain, death etc...  It contains true spiritual insight, that in my opinion, Egyptian mythology lacks.  That is not to say that Pagan mythology has nothing good in it.  It just doesn't say much about us.  If Atum was a "god" then he was elevated, and differentiated from us by his nature.  But Adam descriptively is Me and You, not a "god" whom we cannot relate to.  To put it simply, the one I see as a poetic story, the other I see as a poetic,  archetypal description of humanity.

Opeth,

I think Jim is talking about the Biblical account of Adam being created in God's image.  He is also coupling this with the New Testament teaching that Death entered the world through sin.  This being true, then Adam would have been an undying creature.  So immortality is a good word to use.  I don't think Jim is equating the word "immortal" with "deity".  Is this what you are trying to avoid?  Or do you think that scripture teaches "death" to be a pre-fall phenomenon?  


Stephen.    

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-04-2002 12:05 PM).]

jbouder
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17 posted 12-04-2002 12:18 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

Stephen stated my intent correctly:

quote:


im·mor·tal (adjective)

1. able to live or last forever: able to have eternal life or existence


NOT

quote:
im·mor·tal (noun)

2. a god: a god who lives for ever, especially a god of ancient Greece or Rome


I thought my previous posts removed most doubt that I could possibly be a polytheist or a panentheist.

Jim


Essorant
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18 posted 12-04-2002 06:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephen
I agree with you mostwhat.
But I still think that all creatures are divine, deserving respect and worship.    
Humans are  more loftier in Nature, having more of a hand over things, and this makes the responsibility of our kind more grave in ensuring we don't get out of joint or too far out of balance, for if we lose control of our power more things are within the danger.  
If God or "Gods" is/are not "inside" of us making us, this does not change a truth that we are still the highest government over our own selves. If we had a bit more of an altruistic approach seeing this divinity, I believe this would destine us to higher peace and health.  God and Nature are both our creators, yet we are less and less preserving and worshiping either while our ability to behold as we should is  in smother under a human world sheet of concrete, technology, smoke, grease, waste, etc. exceeding respectful bounds to a point where we can little touch either nor be touched by them.  Some day we will see, and all we will want to do is destroy our own creations to get back to those sources that made us, but it might be too late.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-04-2002 10:17 PM).]

Opeth
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19 posted 12-05-2002 08:38 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Adam was never immortal. However, he had the chance for immortality. Genesis is clear in relating what is the nature of man.

God formed Adam out of dust from the ground. And even told him, from dust you were created and to dust you shall return.

He breathed air into Adam. Not an immortal soul, but air, "the breath of life." This same breath of life was breathed into all living creatures of God.

Adam had a choice. He could eat from the Tree of Life or of the Tree of Knowledge. The fruit from the Tree of Life would provide Adam with the Holy Spirit of God, which would lead to his being born again, upon the first death. But by choosing to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam chose not the Holy Spirit of God, but now brought about what Paul would later call, the second death.

It was Satan, appearing as snake who originated the doctrine of the Immortal Soul by telling Eve, you can eat from this tree for God knows you surely cannot die. In other words, you are immortal, like God.

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20 posted 12-05-2002 12:54 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

From Calvin's Institutes:

quote:
Moreover, there can be no question that man consists of a body and a soul; meaning by soul, an immortal though created essence, which is his nobler part. Sometimes he is called a spirit. But though the two terms, while they are used together differ in their meaning, still, when spirit is used by itself it is equivalent to soul, as when Solomon speaking of death says, that the spirit returns to God who gave it, (Eccles. 12:7.) And Christ, in commending his spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46), and Stephen his to Christ (Acts 7:59), simply mean, that when the soul is freed from the prison-house of the body, God becomes its perpetual keeper.

Those who imagine that the soul is called a spirit because it is a breath or energy divinely infused into bodies, but devoid of essence, err too grossly, as is shown both by the nature of the thing, and the whole tenor of Scripture. It is true, indeed, that men cleaving too much to the earth are dull of apprehension, nay, being alienated from the Father of Lights (James 1:17), are so immersed in darkness as to imagine that they will not survive the grave; still the light is not so completely quenched in darkness that all sense of immortality is lost.

Conscience, which, distinguishing, between good and evil, responds to the judgement of God, is an undoubted sign of an immortal spirit. How could motion devoid of essence penetrate to the judgement-seat of God, and under a sense of guilt strike itself with terror? The body cannot be affected by any fear of spiritual punishment. This is competent only to the soul, which must therefore be endued with essence. Then the mere knowledge of a God sufficiently proves that souls which rise higher than the world must be immortal, it being impossible that any evanescent vigour could reach the very fountain of life.

In fine, while the many noble faculties with which the human mind is endued proclaim that something divine is engraven on it, they are so many evidences of an immortal essence. For such sense as the lower animals possess goes not beyond the body, or at least not beyond the objects actually presented to it. But the swiftness with which the human mind glances from heaven to earth, scans the secrets of nature, and, after it has embraced all ages, with intellect and memory digests each in its proper order, and reads the future in the past, clearly demonstrates that there lurks in man a something separated from the body. We have intellect by which we are able to conceive of the invisible God and angels - a thing of which body is altogether incapable. We have ideas of rectitude, justice, and honesty - ideas which the bodily senses cannot reach. The seat of these ideas must therefore be a spirit. Nay, sleep itself, which stupefying the man, seems even to deprive him of life, is no obscure evidence of immortality; not only suggesting thoughts of things which never existed, but foreboding future events. I briefly touch on topics which even profane writers describe with a more splendid eloquence. For pious readers, a simple reference is sufficient.

Were not the soul some kind of essence separated from the body, Scripture would not teach that we dwell in houses of clay (Job 4:19), and at death remove from a tabernacle of flesh; that we put off that which is corruptible, in order that, at the last day, we may finally receive according to the deeds done in the body. These, and similar passages which everywhere occur, not only clearly distinguish the soul from the body, but by giving it the name of man, intimate that it is his principal part. Again, when Paul exhorts believers to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit (II Cor. 7:1), he shows that there are two parts in which the taint of sin resides. Peter, also, in calling Christ the Shepherd and Bishop of souls (I Peter 2:25), would have spoken absurdly if there were no souls towards which he might discharge such an office. Nor would there be any ground for what he says concerning the eternal salvation of souls (I Peter 1:9), or for his injunction to purify our souls, or for his assertion that fleshly lusts war against the soul (I Peter 2:11p); neither could the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews say, that pastors watch as those who must give an account for our souls (Heb. 13:17p), if souls were devoid of essence. To the same effect Paul calls God to witness upon his soul (II Cor 1:23), which could not be brought to trial before God if incapable of suffering punishment. This is still more clearly expressed by our Saviour, when he bids us fear him who, after he has killed the body, is able also to cast into hell fire (Matt 10:28; Luke 12:5). Again when the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews distinguishes the fathers of our flesh from God, who alone is the Father of our spirits (Heb. 12:9), he could not have asserted the essence of the soul in clearer terms. Moreover, did not the soul, when freed from the fetters of the body, continue to exist, our Saviour would not have represented the soul of Lazarus as enjoying blessedness in Abraham s bosom, while, on the contrary, that of Dives was suffering dreadful torments (Luke 16:22-23). Paul assures us of the same thing when he says, that so long as we are present in the body, we are absent from the Lord (II Cor. 5:6,8). Not to dwell on a matter as to which there is little obscurity, I will only add, that Luke mentions among the errors of the Sadducees that they believed neither angel nor spirit (Acts 23:8).


I'm I understanding you correctly that, if Satan originated the doctrine of the immortal soul, wouldn't Solomon, Jesus, Stephen, James, Job, Paul, Peter and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews be guilty of perpetuating Satan's deceptive false doctrine?

Your continued insistence that Christianity and the doctrine of the immortal soul are incompatible is an untenable position.  If nothing else, Calvin has adequately demonstrated that his opinion is at least as Scripturally valid as your own.

Jim
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Opeth,

"Adam was never immortal. However, he had the chance for immortality. Genesis is clear in relating what is the nature of man."

I will agree that Adam did not remain in an undying state.  He did have a choice.  God told him not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and affirmed to him, "The day that you eat of it you shall surely die".  So death was hinged on Adam's choice.  This is harmonious with Paul's teaching in Romans  5:12:

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"


There is no indication scripturally (not even a hint!) that death was a part of life in Eden, in a pre-fallen state.  I would be interested if you could show me this from Genesis.





"God formed Adam out of dust from the ground. And even told him, from dust you were created and to dust you shall return."

As you say, God did tell Adam that he was made from dust, and to dust he would return... but this was after his disobedient partaking of the fruit which brings death.  This whole dialogue of which you speak is in Genesis 3:9-19 where God pronounces judgement on the serpent, Eve, and Adam for their disobedience.




  
"He breathed air into Adam. Not an immortal soul, but air, "the breath of life." This same breath of life was breathed into all living creatures of God."

You seem to be splitting hairs here, and transforming a poetic description of God creating life, into some sort of theological differentiation based on semantics.  Air, or breath, has always been symbolic of "Life".  There is no basis here to say what the length or duration of that life was, or was not.  The only thing this scripture states, doctrinally speaking, is that our life is from God.




  
"The fruit from the Tree of Life would provide Adam with the Holy Spirit of God, which would lead to his being born again, upon the first death"

Interesting doctrine, but where is the scriptural support from Genesis of a "first death" being pre-fall?  Where is the New testament support that the "New Birth", or being "Born Again" should be associated soley with the ressurection.  Show me this from John chapter 3, if you can... this is where Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus about being born again, and the only place in scripture, interestingly enough, where being "born again" is directly spoken of in these terms.  Remember, I would prefer you to give me scriptures, not just your ideas about scriptures.





"But by choosing to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam chose not the Holy Spirit of God, but now brought about what Paul would later call, the second death."

Again, I would like some scripture to back this up.  Where did Paul refer to the "second death"?  Can you guide me here?  I could be wrong, but I thought the only place in scripture where the "second death" is mentioned is in the book of Revelation, connected with the lake of fire.  If what you are saying is true, then the second death is our present state through Adam's fall, and cannot be associated with the Lake of Fire, as it is in Revelation.  It is an interesting take on scripture no doubt that you are presenting, but I've got to have more than haphazard commentaries on biblical statements.  Please provide scripture chapter and verse.





"It was Satan, appearing as snake who originated the doctrine of the Immortal Soul by telling Eve, you can eat from this tree for God knows you surely cannot die. In other words, you are immortal, like God."


You surely cannot die?... or will not?  All the translations I have read, state the following dialogue:


Eve: "...but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die'."


The Serpent: "You will not surely die.  For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."



Opeth, you are making as if the Serpent's response was to make Eve falsely believe she was "immortal", but this is a stretch, and not necessary at all.   You also have conveniently changed the phraseology of scripture to better suggest your doctrine.  


And If Eve were not already immortal in the sense of being an undying creature, then God's words "You shall surely die" are meaningless...  Death was a judgement upon Adam and Eve.  God did not say "You shall surely die early"!  Wow, not much of an incentive to avoid the fruit, if death is inevitable anyway.


In simplistic terms what was the Serpent saying? ... God is a liar.   You can eat this fruit and you won't die like he said you would "in the day that you eat of it".  And plus you will have knowledge of good and evil like God himself.  

There is no evidence in Genesis, or anywhere else in the Bible that I can see, which suggests that the Serpent was trying to convince Adam & Eve that they were presently "immortal".  Rather, it seems obvious that he was trying to get them to try to be their own "gods", so that they would fall from their undying state.

What a tempation complete autonomy is!



Stephen.  


  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-05-2002 01:15 PM).]

Opeth
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22 posted 12-05-2002 01:07 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I'm I understanding you correctly that, if Satan originated the doctrine of the immortal soul, wouldn't Solomon, Jesus, Stephen, James, Job, Paul, Peter and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews be guilty of perpetuating Satan's deceptive false doctrine?"


~ No. Because Calvin misinterpreted these passages. And of course he did, for he of the false church. Soul = nephesh. We became living souls, just like nephesh is used in describing dead animals in Leviticus. Of course, animals don't have souls, do they?

"Your continued insistence that Christianity and the doctrine of the immortal soul are incompatible is an untenable position.  If nothing else, Calvin has adequately demonstrated that his opinion is at least as Scripturally valid as your own."

It is not my opinion, Jim. I didn't write this verse...

"And God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul."

~ Clearly, this verse states that man IS as soul. A soul is not something man has. This is not my opinion. This is what the bible states.

"The soul that sinneth is the soul that will die."

~ Clearly, without my opinion, that man = soul, will die. And not "eternally separated from God" as mainstream christianity claims, but death = nonexistence...thanatos, I believe the word is in Greek.

~ Remember Calvin was using the philosophy of men mixed with biblical passages. From Plato to Aquinas to Calvin, this teaching and adhering to doctrines and traditions of men, the immortal soul, is false.

Not my opinion, Jim. I am just stating what is found in the bible.

Now the "spirit in man" that was brought up by Calvin is an interesting issue. The Greek and Hebrew word for spirit is definitely different than soul. But I have already explained this before. The spirit of man returns to God, not conscious, but awaiting to join the ressurected bodies when Christ returns. This is why Paul called those who have died in faith, "asleep."
jbouder
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23 posted 12-05-2002 01:22 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

You wrote:

quote:
Not my opinion, Jim. I am just stating what is found in the bible.


Come on, Opeth.  That is sophistry and you know it.  As soon as you read a passage of Scripture and begin to contemplate its meaning, you become an interpreter.  As soon as you comment on what you've interpeted, you've offered your opinion.  If all you do is quote Scripture with a specific purpose in mind, you are still interpreting and you are still expressing an opinion.

You claim Calvin misinterpreted the Scriptures, yet even Stephan, being quite bright but still is no John Calvin (yet) , is able to walk an elephant through the holes in your previous arguments.  So, if it comes down to a question of who interpreted passages of Scripture correctly: Calvin or Opeth? ... I'd have to side with Calvin.

Jim
Opeth
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24 posted 12-05-2002 01:26 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

And so said the masses during Christ's time about Christ and his followers, that they will believe the Scribes and the Pharisees instead.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-05-2002 01:29 PM).]

 
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