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Passions in Poetry

Atum and Adam

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Stephanos
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25 posted 12-05-2002 01:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Opeth,

no use crying "martyrdom", until you are able to defend your position.  Obscurantism is a cheap substitute for being persecuted for "the sake of righteousness".  Jesus was in the temple at twelve, aptly discussing truth with the experts in the law there.  He never failed to offer cogent and powerful support for his take on scripture.  You can call me a Pharisee if you wish, but I am honestly not convinced of your argumentation... yet.  I still want more support from the scriptures.  Jesus was well versed in scripture and offered it freely in support of the truth.  If you're going to say "anathema" over us, at least make it so we will be without excuse.  So far, you just haven't offered anything substantial.


Stephen.
Opeth
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26 posted 12-05-2002 01:44 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

God made man out of dust from the earth and provided him with breath to fill his lungs. To say that Adam was unable to die is an opinion. Show me where the Bible states that Adam and Eve could not die, prior to their taking of the forbidden fruit? It isn't there. You can interpret other scripture to support your claim, but that is all it is. There is nothing that directly says that they were unable to die.

But without adding or taking away from the Biblical passage of Adam's physical existence, I can say that he was a being who was subject to death, the first death. And then, after using this scripture, I can back it up with support. You use supporting scripture prior to providing me with primary support.

Primary

1. God created Adam out of dust from the ground and breathed air into his lungs.
2. He became a living soul.

~ Nothing here states that man has an immmortal soul or spirit. To say that is to add to the bible.

3. It is appointed for all men to die once.

~ Therefore, all men will die.

4. Therefore he can die because he does not possess an immortal soul. He is man.

5. Eating the forbidden fruit brought about the fate of the second death = thanatos.

Clear and simple when one approaches the Bible as a child, and not a scholar like the false christians: Aquinas, Augustine, Calvin, etc.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-05-2002 01:48 PM).]

Opeth
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27 posted 12-05-2002 01:52 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Someone said about using an elephant to roll through what I have said, but I say to you...I have quoted much scripture to show how false christianity is alive and well, which has still not been challenged by either one of you, or anyone else for that matter.

It is real convenient to skip these matters and move on to other topics, so that those matters get lost in all of the other replies.


PS...I have never put any of you down for believing in what I call false christianity. That is the difference between what you believe and what I have come to know. I only hate the false churches, their history, its doctrine. The people who are sincere in their beliefs are not to perish.

They will be taught by God and His saints.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-05-2002 01:57 PM).]

Opeth
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28 posted 12-05-2002 01:59 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"You can call me a Pharisee if you wish..."

~ No, you are one of the masses.
jbouder
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29 posted 12-05-2002 02:07 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

The reasons are simple.  When you quote Scripture and throw it out by the bushel, you are interpreting those Scriptures. You, evidently, can do this very, very quickly.  I, on the other hand, am weighed down by the shackles of scholarship that chain me to false Christianity.  Unless I have an opportunity to read the Scripture, understand its grammar, take note of the context of the remaining chapter, book or epistle, refresh my memory as to the historical context and search as to whether other Scripture interprets its meaning for me, I am reluctant to throw my opinion out there.

Apparently, my apostasy slows me down.

Jim
Stephanos
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30 posted 12-05-2002 02:10 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Opeth,

Let's take this one point at a time.  If you want to stay with Genesis ... then let's start there.


God warned against the forbidden fruit, by saying "In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die".  What exactly is the nature of the judgement pronounced here, if they were already dying creatures?  If they were already mortal in the sense of being subject to physical death, then what is the weight of God's judgement?  It would be like warning a wet man against falling in a pool, by saying "when you do you will surely get wet".  You escape this absurdity in the exact same way of getting "support" from scriptures outside of Genesis... by suggesting that God was speaking of the "second death".  My point?  You have to go outside of Genesis to escape absurdity due to your doctrine.  I only have to say that death was apparantly non-existent in the Garden to escape the absurdity.  And, no I do not have to go outside of Genesis to escape that absurdity, but I can go there for support.  That's where I go to Paul saying that death entered the world through sin.  

You however, due to your doctrine, are forced to go outside of Genesis just to escape the absurdity of God pronouncing death upon dying creatures.  So you go to the "second death".  However, when we go to that scripture, in Revelation, we find nothing said about Adam, or the garden... it is identified with the "Lake of Fire".  When Paul speaks of "death entering the world through sin" in Romans, he is speaking in the context of the Garden of Eden.  He even mentions Adam!


But to reiterate. .. I am not forced to go outside of Genesis to see Adam & Eve's prefallen state as undying, since no absurdity or contradiction arises from believing so.  You however are faced with a problematic and puzzling question ...


Taking the Genesis account ALONE, why does God pronounce Death as a judgement on an already dying race?


You go to the second death of Revelation which gives no indication of your doctrine whatsoever.  


I am not unwilling to look at any scripture, however, you would like to look at.  It is just my assertion that you have a problem with pre-fall mortality in Genesis that could be solved by scriptures outside of Genesis, but so far hasn't been solved by them.  Please quote scripture either from Genesis or the other 65 books of scriptures that would support your view.  I am afraid the one reference in scripture to the second death falls way short of being convincing.

I may yet be wrong.  But I have harmony within Genesis, and seeming support outside of it as well.  So far, you seem to have neither.


And BTW, I have read all of this myself, I never decided to believe theologians for the sake of believing them without my own judgement.  I believed this long before I ever read about Calvin or any of these guys you mentioned.  I disagree with many theologians which I respect.


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-05-2002 02:13 PM).]

Stephanos
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31 posted 12-05-2002 02:20 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

"I have quoted much scripture to show how false christianity is alive and well, which has still not been challenged by either one of you, or anyone else for that matter.
It is real convenient to skip these matters and move on to other topics, so that those matters get lost in all of the other replies.
"


There you go again ... We ARE discussing about false Christianity.  But now in a meaningful way.  We are actually looking at doctrines which constitute true or false.  You call this "getting lost" in replies.  I call it facing the issues and discussing them, rather than asserting your view and calling everyone else heretics.  One step at a time... you have yet to show me that your idea of "immortal soul doctrine" really is an element of false christianity.  And we must resolve this, first.  Else, we just end up never really taking a good look at the claims.  We've got plenty of time.  Let's stay where we are until the questions are answered.  If you are unwilling to do this, I think it may be from a hesitancy...  Do you think your assertions will stand observation?  Even Paul said to "Test the Spirits, to see if they are from God".  You can't avoid the testing, and call everyone who wants to test, enemies.  It may be God who wants to try your doctrine as well. . . If it came from him, it will stand.  


Stephen.
Opeth
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32 posted 12-05-2002 02:20 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

You may be right on one point (it has been quite awhile since I studied Genesis), that Adam and Eve, prior to eating of the forbidden fruit would not die (first death), however, where I think I threw myself off-base was the issue of them not dying and the immortal soul issue.

That they would not die does not mean they have immortal souls. This was my intended point. Even those truly called are not perfect. But the foundation is of the truth.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-05-2002 02:22 PM).]

Opeth
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33 posted 12-05-2002 02:23 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Okay, then. Go back and read what I quoted regarding the immortality of the soul, and the ressurections. Read it and answer it, if you wish.

"Even Paul said to "Test the Spirits, to see if they are from God".  You can't avoid the testing, and call everyone who wants to test, enemies.  It may be God who wants to try your doctrine as well. . . If it came from him, it will stand."

~ Interesting. But answer me this. I have already been on your side arguing the same arguments that you are giving me...studying with an open mind and asked God for guidance and now I believe differenttly. Are you saying that I should now go back again and start all over again? Then what, if I should change, and then find another person who is like I am now, rehash it again, and then maybe change back again? lol

Have you been on my side of the fence? But, I have been on yours.

And what if you are not being called, and then would never understand what the truth is?  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-05-2002 02:28 PM).]

Essorant
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34 posted 12-05-2002 08:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I believe present shapes and memory are forever temporary.  There is no being one thing, or remembering one thing forever, thus the body and the soul are mortal and immortal-- mortal in that they change and forget, and immortal in that they seem to be doing it for an eternity!!
Maybe the whole universe is one small group of elements immortal, but the seeming endless variety of compounds of these must be mortal.  When they are but themselves they are substances, when they are compounds they are creations, objects and beings.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-06-2002 11:10 PM).]

 
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