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Passions in Poetry

The Christian Afterlife

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Opeth
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75 posted 12-02-2002 01:51 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I wholeheartedly disagree with you, Jim.

False christianity exists today.
It is the majority because Christ called His flock a little one.
The true church would never be divided on issues. The Bible clearly states this fact.
The false gospel of Satan and of his ministers of rightousness have fused pagan beliefs with truths. The immortal soul doctrine is pagan without a doubt.

Btw...what is the Gospel that you are talking about. Tell me, what was the Gospel of Christ? What does the Bible say it is?
Opeth
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76 posted 12-02-2002 01:54 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

False christianity preaching another christ based on false doctrine...

Trinity
Immotral Soul (eternal punishing)
The reward of the saved
Pagan Holidays
The Sabbath (especially)
The Business of saving souls as the gospel, the false gospel, indeed.

The Mother Church and the Harlot Daughters of Revelations, indeed.

Remember, it is the denominations, the false churches, that rile me on the inside, not the people who attend them. I have nothing against you or anyone else for that matter in believing what you believe. For, if one is not being called at this time, they are not guilty of anything.

The majority of church going people will eventually be saved, no doubt.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-02-2002 01:58 PM).]

Opeth
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77 posted 12-02-2002 02:30 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Jim,

Think about it. If a false christ or another christ is prophecized to be taught by Satan's ministers of rightousness, then how do you think they could accomplish this feat?

The progression of questions would have to be this:

1. Does the Bible teach that false christianity exists today?

If one answer yes, go to the next question.

2. If it does exist, and Jesus calls His true flock a little flock, then where in the christian churches does false christianity lie?

To me, the Bible is clear on how these two questions should be answered. I have given scripture which clarifies these answers.

But for the sake of argument, say that false christianity does indeed exist, preaching christ, but another christ a false christ. How do they accomplish this? What would they teach that misleads and beholds a false christ to the masses of christians?

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-02-2002 02:32 PM).]

Essorant
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78 posted 12-02-2002 02:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I'm sorry for going off topic, but how come the word "pagan" always seems to be carried with a connotation of "evil" "false" "wrong"?  Are you these things just for being a believer in different things?  For seeing God or "Gods" in different things and different ways?  If pagan things are an influence on the literature, it is only false to deny that, but it doesn't make it false or wrong for being that, in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-02-2002 02:39 PM).]

Opeth
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79 posted 12-02-2002 02:35 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Essorant,

I am arguing from a Biblical standpoint.

For example, if Augustine and Aquinas use Socrates and Platos belief of the immortality of the soul and stamp it factual, according to the bible, this is an abomination to God. Because their belief is "pagan" in nature, not of the Spirit of God. The Bible is clear on this matter. One cannot mix the carnal mind of man with the truth of His Spirit.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-02-2002 02:47 PM).]

jbouder
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80 posted 12-02-2002 03:37 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
Btw...what is the Gospel that you are talking about. Tell me, what was the Gospel of Christ? What does the Bible say it is?


That Jesus Christ was born, lived blamelessly, died on the cross as a perfect atonement for our sins, was raised from the dead for our justification on the third day, and ascended into heaven with a promise to return.

Very simple.  Paul often spoke of how he preached this "simple" message of Christ crucified and risen from the dead, rather than by cleverly devised arguments.  Fallen man, wholly incapable of pulling himself up by his own bootstraps, was redeemed by an act of grace as God promised.

A few notes on your other posts:

1. The New Testament supports both the full humanity and full deity of Christ. How do you reconcile this with your denial of the Trinity?

2. How do your other examples of "false doctrines" deny the person and work of Jesus Christ?

3. Why are you suggesting that "pagan = bad" when even Luke and the Apostle Paul quoted pagan poets and philosophers in their works?  Did Paul's study of the works of Epiminides influence his writing?  Does that make the writings of Paul "less inspired"?

4. How do you reconcile your eschatological view with that fact that wide-spread acceptance of pre-tribulationism and pre-millenialism are products of the modern-day "mainstream" Christianity you decry and were, in fact, considered erroneous by both the reformers and the early church fathers?

My point is that, with the exception of my first note, there is room for opinion in Christianity without need to fear treading into the realm of apostasy.  Denominationalism does not necessarily mean rampant heresy.  In many instances, the "distinctives" I mentioned are recognized my their members as being secondary, while the orthodox Gospel is taught just as clearly as in the church next door.

Merely my, opinion, of course.

Jim
Opeth
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81 posted 12-03-2002 09:58 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"That Jesus Christ was born, lived blamelessly, died on the cross as a perfect atonement for our sins, was raised from the dead for our justification on the third day, and ascended into heaven with a promise to return."

~ That is most definitely good news, includes elements of the True Gospel, but what you stated is not the Gospel according to the true Saviour.  

~ Remember, we as men cannot state what the gospel is, or what we think it is, but only from what the Bible states. What did Jesus say the Gospel was? What about Paul, what did he say the Gospel was?

Let's see what the Bible states, not man...

Luke 10:9

Jesus is giving instructions to his apostles about how to go about spreading the Gospel. Nothing is mentioned here about His birth, His death, sin atonement, etc, but the Gospel

"The Kingdom of God has come near to you!"

What is the TRUE Gospel?

Mark 1:14-15

The Gospel of the Kingdom of God! Christ is the King, not a baby in swaddling clothes or a dead person on a cross as pictured in the crucifix, but a living KING!

Luke 9:1-2

Back to Luke, what did Christ send His apostles to do?

"He sent them to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick."

Jim, this is not what you stated as the Gospel to be. The true Gospel is all about the coming Kingdom of God.

"Very simple.  Paul often spoke of how he preached this "simple" message of Christ crucified and risen from the dead, rather than by cleverly devised arguments."  

~ Sure, he spoke of this, but it is not the Gospel of Christ the King of which Paul spoke of...

Acts 19:8

Paul speaking boldly of The Kingdom of God.

Acts 20:25

Paul exhorting the Ephisian elders: "And indeed, now I know that you all among whom I have gone preaching the Kingdom of God..."

Acts 28:23

Paul testifying about the Kingdom of God.

Acts 28:31

And finally, what were the final lines of Acts?

"The Paul...received all who came to him,


notice people came to him, and what Gospel did he preach after they came to him?

"...preaching the Kingdom of God..."


~ Jim, you never mentioned the Kingdom of God as the Gospel. Your church doesn't teach the True Gospel?

So, is the Kingdom of God today's Christian churches? I was told this by many a christian preacher and scholars. I didn't take their word for it and checked the Bible, myself. Here is what I found...

1Cor 15:50

"...Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God..."

~ We are flesh and blood, true christians are heirs, but have not yet inherited the Kindom of God because we are flesh and blood. Not until the Second Coming when Christ sets up THE KINGDOM OF GOD! The True Gospel!

Still not convinced? Let's take a look into the future...

Rev 5:10

This states that those born again as priests and kings to the Lord will rule on earth in the Kingdom of God.

Rev 20:4-6

Describes the 1000 year Kingdom of God on earth, the first resurrection is mentioned here.

Rev 11:15

The Seventh trumpet proclaiming what news? What good news? Which Gospel, the one your church teaches, Jim, or the Gospel of God, of the Bible?

"The Kingdoms of this world have become..."

Yes!?

"...The Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"


The True Gospel is fulfilled.

Let's look at how this was prophecized in the OT...

Dan 2:44

"And in the days of these kings of God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break to pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever."

~ Matches Revelations to the T.

Dan 7:13-14

Basically states the same thing, that Christ is going to set up the Kingdom of God on earth.

~ This is the True Gospel according to God, not man.


[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-03-2002 10:10 AM).]

Opeth
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82 posted 12-03-2002 10:17 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"The New Testament supports both the full humanity and full deity of Christ. How do you reconcile this with your denial of the Trinity?"

~ I let the Bible answer that for me, Jim. The Gospel according to John is a great place to start. In the beginning there was God and there was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God (paraphrasing).

If I would stop right there, it would appear that the nature of God is twofold, not three.

From my studies, I have found this...that the Holy Spirit is how God (Elohim) accomplishes things, here on earth. The Bible mentions in Genesis, that "the Spirit of God moved over the earth" This same Spirit is the HS in the NT.

God the Father
God the Son (Groom)
The True Church (Bride)

And when the Second Coming occurs, those Born Again are the Children of the Union between Christ and His Chruch. Those saved become Gods children = Gods. Of course, in a role that say your son is to you, Jim. I mean, what does your church teach, that we become angels? Or, we remain human in some form? The Bible is clear, that we become Children of God.

The Trinity limits God and is actually based on pagan Egyptian religion.
Opeth
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83 posted 12-03-2002 10:21 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"How do your other examples of "false doctrines" deny the person and work of Jesus Christ?"

~ The bible states that "another christ" will be taught, Jim, not me.

Satan deceives the whole world.
False christianity has already infiltrated the churches during writings of the Bible.
Even Satan appears as a minister of righteousness, including his false ministers preaching another christ.

And since Christ's true followers are a small flock...

Satan established false christianity, preaching doctrines and traditions of men, that Christ warned about.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-03-2002 11:09 AM).]

Opeth
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84 posted 12-03-2002 10:59 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Why are you suggesting that "pagan = bad" when even Luke and the Apostle Paul quoted pagan poets and philosophers in their works?  Did Paul's study of the works of Epiminides influence his writing?  Does that make the writings of Paul "less inspired"?

~ Are you suggesting that God will mix non-christian (pagan) philosophies or "ways" with his truth? That God would condone His Word mixing with the carnal mind of man? Are you saying that Paul injected pagan philosophy into the Gospel and the truths of what Christ taught?

Does God condone the ways of pagans?

What does the Bible say?

Let's see...

Col 1:9-10

Paul explains to the Colls about gaining in knowledge of God's will and spiritual understanding. This can only occur if one has received the Spirit of God.

~ But more directly, Jim. Let me answer your question about injecting pagan philosophy and ways into Christianity...

Col 2:8


"Beware lest anyone cheat you through..."

~ Through what, brother Paul?

"...philosophy and empty deceit..."

~ Philosophy! I am sure that Socrates and Plato and all the other non-christian philosophers are included, Jim...but let us continue...

Philsophy according to whom or what?

"according to the traditions of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."

~ Could this be even any easier to understand that you cannot mix the carnal mind of man (philosophies, ways of the world) with Christian doctrine and teachings.

That Augustine and Aquinas would actually quote Plato on the belief of the immortal soul and STAMP it as a christian doctrine, is an abomination to the Lord God.

False Christianity crept into the chruches then, and how has it grown throughout the years...

Prov 14:12

Men, without the Spirit of God, think they know what is right, but there ways end in death. I guess that is why Peter said this...

Acts 5:29

"We ought to obey God rather than men."
Opeth
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85 posted 12-03-2002 11:05 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"...wide-spread acceptance of pre-tribulationism and pre-millenialism are products of the modern-day "mainstream" Christianity you decry..."

~ You will have to explain what you mean here. I don't get it.

However, I do know this, once Constantine established christianity as the True religion, this is when the True christians were tortured and eventually scattered throughout the lands. These true Christians kept the Sabbath and other true Christian High Sabbaths, not Easter and Christmas, the pagan false christian holidays. Constantine was never a true christian, but a false one, indeed.
jbouder
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86 posted 12-03-2002 01:53 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

Pretribulationalism is the belief that Christ will return for believers prior to a literal seven year tribulation period.  Pre-millenialism is the belief in a literal, future 1000-year earthly reign of Christ with the elect after which time the Adversary will do battle with Christ and be banished to the Lake of Fire.

The reformers ascribed to a different eschatological (regarding the end-times) view point and considered "Chiliasm" (pre-trib and pre-millenial views) to be error.

It wasn't until the second "Great Awakening" in America during the early 19th century that these eschatological views became popular again.  Now, they are more-or-less the prevaling eschatological views of modern, evangelical Christianity.  They become even more popular as pop-culture perpetuates these teachings (e.g., Timothy LeHay's "Left Behind" series, the "Damien" movies).

My point, Opeth, is that your theology is shaped as much by your past indoctrination as it is by your apparent revelatory experiences.  You've probably never considered the merits of reformed eschatological views.  Rather, it appears that you've assumed that these portions of what you have been taught are true.

They may be.  I cannot be 100% certain.  But I think the amillenial position has great merit.

Regarding your question pertaining to my views on the Gospel of the Kingdom, I think I can answer your question easily enough.  In summarizing the Gospel to you, I was naturally borrowing from Lutheran teachings.  Martin Luther wrote in the Schmalkaldic Articles, "Here is the first and chief article: (1) That Jesus Christ our God and Lord, 'was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification' (from Romans 4:25)."

The establishment of the Kingdom of God Christ announced and predicted (the Kingdom is both present and future, you know) is implicit in Luther's "chief article".  With Christ's advent, Scripture was fulfilled and, truly, the "Kingdom of God [was] at hand."  With his resurrection, the dominion of sin over mankind was broken.  Death, the penalty for sin, was defeated.  This provides the Christian with the hope that, at some future date, he or she will also experience the resurrection and glorification experienced by Christ.  The resurrection of believers will also mark the final establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

So, salvation and the Kingdom of God are related.  Both have past, present and future attributes and both are related directed to what Luther summarized in the "chief article" written in his Schmalkaldic Articles.

Granted, as right as Luther was about justification, he was very, very wrong about other things including his anti-semitic views later in his life, and his contention that the mentally retarded were bodies without living souls.  But all human beings are wrong about one thing or another during their lifetimes ... including Jim and Opeth.

In short, of course I believe in the Gospel of the Kingdom.  I just don't think it is as distinct from my summary as you appear to.

Jim
Opeth
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87 posted 12-03-2002 02:07 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Jim,

If you believe that the Gospel is the Kingdom of God, then why didn't you just say that is what the Gospel is when you first answered my question?

If someone were to ask me, "Mike, what is the Gospel of Christ?" I would say to him or her, the Bible states that the Kingdom of God is coming, here on this earth. Christ is the King. He reigns now in heaven, but He is to return and bring His Kingdom here on earth. I would not try to "save them." I would not hand them pamphlets of how they are to perish in hellfire if they don't accept Christ as their saviour, because that is NOT the Gospel.

Also, as for Martin Luther...I will use this analogy...if a false seed is planted and what grows forth from that seed is what appears to be truth, it just can't be, because the seed planted was false to begin with...

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-03-2002 02:10 PM).]

Opeth
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88 posted 12-03-2002 02:16 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"(the Kingdom is both present and future, you know..."

~ It was at hand then, because Christ was here on earth, but even still when asked by Pilot, "So, you are a King, where is your Kingdom." Christ told him that His Kingdom was not yet of this world. (John 18:36) And so, as it is today. Didn't you read the scripture I quoted. The Kingdom is not the church today. It is clear from the bible that it can't be. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. True Christians are heirs to the Throne, but they have not yet inherited it.

False doctrine would lead one to believe that the Kingdom of God is established in one's heart or church, but that is a doctrine and tradition of men.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-03-2002 02:18 PM).]

jbouder
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89 posted 12-03-2002 02:18 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Jim,

quote:
If you believe that the Gospel is the Kingdom of God, then why didn't you just say that is what the Gospel is when you first answered my question?


Because that does not comport with the patterns I see in the preaching of the Apostles.  Let's not get the cart before the horse or attempt to divorce the Kingdom from the message of Christ crucified and raised from the dead.  Especially a personal appropriation of the latter truth directly impacts whether the future, full establishment of the former is good news or bad news to you.

quote:
If someone were to ask me, "Mike, what is the Gospel of Christ?" I would say to him or her, that the Kingdom of God is coming, here on this earth. Christ is the King. He reigns now in heaven, but He is to return and bring His Kingdom here on earth. I would not try to "save them." I would not hand them pamphlets of how they are to perish in hellfire if they don't accept Christ as their saviour, because that is NOT the Gospel.


Well, that is not exactly what I would do either.  I cannot save anyone.  All I can do is share what I've learned an hope it benefits someone.

Just curious ... how do you explain to them how they can access the benefits of this future Kingdom?  Where does "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" play into your theology?

quote:
Also, as for Martin Luther...I will use this analogy...if a false seed is planted and what grows forth from that seed is what appears to be truth, it just can't be, because the seed planted was false to begin with...


The same can be said for the Gospel according to Opeth.  But you beg the question of the falsehood of Luther's "seed".  In my view, it is consistent with the teachings of the Apostles and early church Fathers insomuchas the emphasis on Christ's works are concerned.  An analogy, by itself, is insufficient to demonstrate Luther's alleged error.

Don't ya think?

Jim
jbouder
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90 posted 12-03-2002 02:22 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Geeze, I can't keep up with you and I've gotta be getting back to work.  But I don't think I've made my position on the nature of the Kingdom as clear as I could have (I wasn't trying to).  For now, I think it is fair to say that my view is not exactly what you assume it to be.

More later.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (12-03-2002 02:29 PM).]

 
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