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Nonexistance

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Essorant
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0 posted 11-14-2002 02:41 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Christopher and I touched upon this in the "ghosts" thread and I was just wondering if any of you could add a few thoughts to help clear this up!  
How can any thing, a thing, a creation of any kind, able to be referred to, not be existing??  

Look at the definition for Nonexistance from dictionary.com:

1. The condition of not existing.
2. Something that does not exist.

How can nonexistance be a condition!  
And If you are something doesn't that confirm your existance!

I don't think I will ever be able to believe in something not existing.   Everything must exist.  If you are pointing at it saying it doesn't exist that is paradox for you are pointing at it, if it weren't existing you wouldn't be able to say it wasn't existing.  
Does this make any sense??  Or am I just going crazy!!  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-14-2002 03:27 AM).]

Christopher
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1 posted 11-14-2002 03:33 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Glad you made a new post for this.

What we need to clarify right off, I think, is whether you're discerning between something physical or something conceptual. There's a huge difference between the two (although, as with anything, that too can be argued).

If there is a chair sitting in the middle of the room and you point to it, saying it does not exist isn't a paradoxical statement, it's a statement that is either a lie or a matter of perspective. If you recognize the chair does exist, saying it doesn't is a falsehood. If the chair is there but you do not recognize it as such, you can say it is non-existent.

Concepts, however, are a much different thing. You can't see them, you can't touch them, smell them... so how do you prove they exist in the first place? In science, the burden of proof isn't in saying something is non-existent, but rather that it exists in the first place. (Which of course ends up being the same thing if you can't prove that it DOES exist).

Look to your right and point out Time for me. Can you prove it exists? If you can't, it's non-existent.
Essorant
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2 posted 11-14-2002 12:03 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Christopher--

"If the chair is there but you do not recognize it as such, you can say it is non-existent."

You can say it is non-existant,  but you you are still recognizing it as there if you are giving a term and tagging the attribute "non-existant" on it...aren't you?

"Look to your right and point out Time for me. Can you prove it exists? If you can't, it's non-existent"

I think that there is a science, a chemistry that goes further than just being available to bodily beholdings.   We can behold things in other planes--and this is the argument and proof of thier existance.  It is beheld, therefore it is!

Time seems to exists in every plane that I am presently part of.  I behold it and it beholds me.  am present to change and age and memory loss, the substances of Time, therefore these are the avouch of Times existance.   If there were no thinking, remebering, forgetting, regarding change...then there would be no time, everything would be in an absolute present, but nothing could be concious of that!  There is no "that" or "it" to refer to at all as not existing.  You simply are another thing where time is not a thing, so doesn't exist.  If you are referring to Time in that area from here, I suppose you can say it is non existant there--but this is from regarding its here because it is an thing existing.  It still exists..

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-14-2002 12:37 PM).]

Stephanos
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3 posted 11-14-2002 01:12 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

If someone proposes "flying pigs" exist, we usually say something like, "flying pigs do not exist".  Language forces us to at least formulate the concept and then refute the reality by proxy.  The only thing that exists is the image of flying pigs in our brain... thus we are able to apply the condition "nonexistant" to it while intending it toward a real living flying pig (that isn't to be found).  


Language provides symbols for things.  When something doesn't exist, we are required to create the symbol in order to be able to discuss it.  But an actual flying pig, and the idea of a flying pig would be two different  things.  Time, though conceptual in our minds, is merely a word describing a process.  The thought of time is conceptual.  But Time in reality is not conceptual ... it really works and changes things in a tangible way ... the concept is just a description of a reality that is indescribable.

Stephen


[This message has been edited by Stephanos (11-14-2002 01:17 PM).]

Essorant
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4 posted 11-14-2002 02:06 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Yet with "flying pigs" we can only imagine flying pigs because we are able to refer to "flying" and "pigs" that exist--it is the artwork of our mind but there is no other paint than reality.  "Flying Pigs" exist as a potential.  "Flying" and "Pigs" exists so Pigs I think could potentially fly if God, nature and evolution so provided.  Whatsoever we imagine most likely has a potential though of existing some other where or someother time than not.  I am just saying we cannot say "Flying pigs are nonexistant"  in the absolute sense.  They are only nonexistant here and now but this here and now isn't what exists throughout the universe.
In absolute terms, I would therefore be preponderated to believe they are existing in a reality because they do in imaginations and in excellent possibility.  This outweighs the matter of them not existing here and now.
Now you are going to call me crazy    

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-14-2002 02:32 PM).]

Stephanos
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5 posted 11-14-2002 02:48 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Okay,

Pigs and flying are both things we have seen (in the external world) and have noted in our minds.  Because of this we can put them together in concept.  But it's still only a concept as the biology of pigs does not allow for flying.  Yes theoretically and logically a flying pig is not impossible, it just isn't currently the case.  Pigs do not fly.  Of course I guess someone could take a pig on a 747 jet plane ... There's your flying pig Essorant!  But is that what we had in mind when we said "flying pigs"?  ...lol...


To make things more complicated... Flying pigs we can visualize by means of imagination... so we have the concept linguistically and visually.  But what about something that can only be concieved linguistically?  Square circles do not exist.  Try to visualize one and tell me what you see?  If you weren't crazy Essorant, I think I might have just pushed you over the edge.  


Stephen.
Essorant
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6 posted 11-14-2002 04:31 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If a circle is a circle every day of the month except for one day when it turns to a square, does it mean it now ceases to be circle at all just because it turns to a square for a day?  On that day and moment, that here and now, it is a square, but you would only perceive it as being totally a square and call it that if you weren't aquainted with the rest of its existance and nature as a circle, otherise you would call it a square circle!  
You see everything exists in Possibility, therefore everything most likely exists because the universe we live in seems big enough that it could fit all of it...at least to me  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-14-2002 04:34 PM).]

Essorant
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7 posted 11-14-2002 04:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Sorry.  I deleted it  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-14-2002 07:26 PM).]

Wind
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8 posted 11-14-2002 06:59 PM       View Profile for Wind   Email Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Wind

(drools) I think this is too intelegent for me... Having a test aftershock.

"Sticks and stones will break my bones,
But words will break my heart"

Essorant
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9 posted 11-14-2002 07:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is hard to stay sane with flying pigs, and square circles in your brain  
But I suppose stranger things have taken one to the truth...

I think I scared away Stephenos.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-14-2002 07:32 PM).]

Stephanos
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10 posted 11-14-2002 10:19 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Nah,

I'm still here.  A circle is always a circle.  A square is always a square.  If a circle changes into a square once a month, it changes into a square once a month.  The mystery at this point would not be how a circle could also be a square, but what changes that circle into a square on the 2nd Saturday of each month.  If the circle is on my refridgerator door, it could be my 4 year old son, or even me.  (I've been known to do stranger things)

You see, Essorant, a square circle (meaning a geometrical shape that is circular and square all at once) is what is non existant except for a linguistic concept... heck we can't even picture that one in our heads.  Go ahead and try.  I still think I'm gonna scare YOU off!  and from your own thread!  LOL.


Stephen.
Christopher
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11 posted 11-14-2002 11:25 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

i'll be back eventually, but i think i agree more with Stephanos... though i believe the point is starting to wander, lol (have we ever had one here that didn't?)
Ron
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12 posted 11-15-2002 12:54 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I'm going to both agree and disagree with Essorant. According to Stephen Hawking, if you stand next to a black hole long enough, you WILL see a flying pig emerge. And square circles can not only be mathematically imagined, but are probably inevitable in a sufficiently distorted gravity field. It's little different than straight lines that curve, as evidenced by non-Euclidean geometry.

However, when I yell, "Come here!" there is an implied "you" in there, and when I say "Flying pigs don't exist," I think there is an equally tacit implication that I'm referring to the here and now. In other words, saying something will exist someday within the confines of infinity is not the same thing as saying it DOES exist.

Essorant, you are essentially arguing that non-existence is non-existent. Surely, you see the paradox in that?
Essorant
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13 posted 11-15-2002 03:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ron,
But you use the word "infinity"...
In comparison to the Universe itself we are very small and confined beings, so  isn't the highest probablity of whatsoever we might imagine that the being of the Universe as large and seeming perpetual or infinite as it seems, has probably already created it?  Could we be imagining things the reality of a whole Universe has not already begot?!  
I believe there is a possibilty but this would be against the potential of the whole Universe--that we do not know yet!   Nonexistance of a thing can only be in local "here and now" but in the "here and now" of an infinite universe itself--everything must exist...it seems
Ron
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14 posted 11-15-2002 04:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

The Universe is probably not infinite and almost certainly not eternal. It's only been around about fourteen billion years and, at most, its radius can be no larger than its age in seconds times the speed of light. The Universe is still a tiny child.

But it doesn't matter. Your argument is a self-referencing paradox. If everything conceivable must have existence, then non-existence must exist, too. Otherwise, we couldn't have this conversation about it.
Essorant
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15 posted 11-15-2002 07:20 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I yield now   But something seems awry!  

I am thinking of when someone states "God does not exist"
No matter how much one denies a God existing, it seems to me when you refer to "God"--you are still always referring to an entity no matter how artfully you refer to it, a something that exists in some way or another.  This may be  universal, maybe native, maybe yourself, it maybe something of yourself, of anything! but it exists--therefore atheism seems paradoxal.
It does not refer to the same way or same thing for everyone, and more abstract or more physical for people, but none of this reduces the existance.   Sometimes we lose sight of the matters amidst the diverse shapes referring to them--but this is a beauty that reflects how differently we wonder about and perceive things.  
If you want to call me a worm, when I am a butterfly so be it-- Just because you call me a worm doesn't not take my existance as a butterfly away, you are referring to an existing thing no matter what you call me!  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-15-2002 08:22 PM).]

Christopher
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16 posted 11-15-2002 09:07 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

so i go back to what i said in the other thread, since there is belief in God -

show me the Wizard of Oz, Zeus, aliens... on and on, we could spend years writing lists of things we can refer to that don't truly exist.
Essorant
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17 posted 11-15-2002 10:10 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't agree.

To me artwork is an impression of something real, for something cannot come from nothing
It a reference, therefore as a creation it exists and as reference and what it refers to exists, no matter how indirectly.  Just because they are not in the same shape(s) as what it is referring to, does not change its aspect of having the substance of as a thing that has a real influence. It has  a real influence because it is referring to something real in one way or another.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-15-2002 10:11 PM).]

Essorant
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18 posted 11-15-2002 11:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Actually I don't know why I bother thinking at all about things like this-- every line of thinking in me always seems to return to confusion, or get shattered at a paradox or make me feel embarassed and insane ineveitably.  In this case all of them at once.   I could make a guess and it would be a smarter thing than what my thoughts end up at.  I could flip a coin, I could take everything for face value and these would be more logical.   I don't think that there is even an -ism word for believing that everything counts and exists, therefore it confirms to me even more that my thoughts have once again taken me to more stupidity.   I give up.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-15-2002 11:58 PM).]

Christopher
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19 posted 11-16-2002 01:17 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

rofl - Essorant: if you end these conversations feeling more confused, that's a GOOD thing. There's a paradox for you. It means you're paying attention and opening up to new ideas. I don't recal the exact way he phrased it, but I think Brad said it best when he said that (paraphrased) philosophy isn't about convincing someone to change their mind, but opening them to new ideas.
Essorant
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20 posted 11-16-2002 04:01 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I hope so.
    
I am trying to do more intensive thinking early in my life so I can get to an early retirement from this sooner--the point where no more thought will have to exist, and wisdom can fare well by the educated impulse and instinct alone.  I hoped to be done thinking by the age of 25, but these errors and aches are putting me back and I will probably have to think now until I'm 30!  No matter what though I'm going to wing it from there! Want to come along  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-16-2002 04:02 AM).]

Christopher
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21 posted 11-16-2002 04:18 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

lol - you're lucky then... i didn't START thinking until i was 25...
Christopher
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22 posted 11-16-2002 04:18 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

oh - but then your thoughts would be non-existent...
Essorant
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23 posted 11-16-2002 12:28 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Now I am picking up the bad habit of the age, acting as if a thing doesn't exist just because it is elsewhere or in a different shape!  
Thoughts that aren't converted to knowledge or written down in influentual volumes that will change the world's way of thinking forever, will be stopped and put away in padded cells--they are no good so they might as well be ingnored and treated as if they don't exist.  You see, treated as if they don't exist, but they really do exist.  And even when I'm 30 Ttoughts I know will still exist in a way in the impulse and instinct they are just smoothened to flow in the river, not to be as a dam to it.  You must have been thinking before 25, your thoughts just didn't jutty out and engross the flow too much with articulations--something disturbed there swiftness, and then you started noticing their imposition.
The same matters are always existing, just in different shapes and places.  
After death, one is not non-existant, she is only elsewhere and in a different shape.  
I believe the chiefest elements of things are an immortal body of specks and sparks, sources and influences; and what ever shape these  take will always still be the same being overall, everything existing.  They are always the substance and any physical object or concept will always betoken them, in one way or another.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-16-2002 01:39 PM).]

Essorant
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24 posted 11-16-2002 02:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Here is the the ism, so that the future ages will know well the very name of truth!
Scientists and philosphers worldwide will have this word in their mouths. It will be chewed by every thought and future theory revolving.  All religions will become restored with the believing vigors that founded them originally and civilizations will rise out of confusion and be in their highest states for that there is name and way now for referring to the truth, directly  

Essorantism--everything exists, everything counts!      

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-16-2002 02:19 PM).]

 
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