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Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


0 posted 11-06-2002 02:47 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

From an article by Nancy Kress:
quote:
As any therapist will tell you, a deep personal change has three parts: receptivity to change, causal events, and validation.
I'm really interested in this subject right now and am having some issues with this declaration, but can't decide exactly where. It feels mostly right, but I feel some discussion might be helpful.

[This message has been edited by Christopher (11-07-2002 02:02 AM).]

serenity blaze
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1 posted 11-06-2002 05:00 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
None. The light bulb will change itself when it's ready.
Just one, but the light bulb really has to want to change.
Just one, but it takes nine visits.

How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
"How long have you been having this phantasy?"
"Why does the light bulb necessarily have to change?"
One, but he must consult the DSM-IV.

How many psychoanalysts does it take to change a light bulb?
"How many do you think it takes?"


---------------------------------------------


smiles, the above was not just for comic relief--there's a point there--in the weird way I paint 'em.

You happen to have a link to the entire article? Change is about the only thing with which I remain consistently fascinated.

good thing, huh? (more wry typing)

jbouder
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2 posted 11-06-2002 08:21 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Christopher:

It probably seems "mostly" right to you because it is an umbrella statement that probably covers elements of deep personal changes in most people.

It seems to loosely follow Skinner's respondent conditioning elements of antecedent/behavior/consequence, although her definition of "casual events" is unclear.  Could it be "causal events"?

Skinner's theories on respondent conditioning are well grounded in formal research.  In Ms. Kress's case, the three elements she suggests would have to work together closely: Receptivity to change depends strongly on whether or not the change is "validating" or rewarding (reinforcing, in behaviorist jargon) in order for the change to stablize.  Assuming she meant "causal", the causal event would have to prompt the behaviors associated with the personal change (that happens to be validating to the person).

Again, assuming "casual" to be a typo, I would have to say that the statement, in and of itself, is not untrue.  The true test, however, is how the statement is applied.  It is possible to botch efforts to change behavior, you know.

Interesting, though ... she doesn't seem to consider in her statement that deep personal changes can be elicited by negative experiences.  I suppose one could argue that escaping from negative consequences is validating, in a way.  E.g., if we discontinue our subscription to Maxim because of a fear of offending our significant other, would Ms. Kress consider the result "validating"?

Interesting topic, Christopher.

Jim
Essorant
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3 posted 11-06-2002 12:42 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think there are many different phases to change that vary from person to person, in one way or another many perhaps fit under the proposition of this statement but many perhaps don't.  What about the daily approach?  What about ignorance?  Can you fully attend your purpose without ignoring something temporarily--sometimes  I know I can't.   Disclosure and confessing?  Fear?  Forbearance?  Physical aspects and social aspects--relationships with others?  these all go into  the personal aspects.  Don't they? Sometimes these therapists get so abstract and think that all of the aspects are inward and needing a mental mutation, trying to prescribe abstract resolutions for physical problems or medications when the individual actually needs...something physical, to get away from city and work more often, to make love, or buy spend some money on herself more often if she deserve to.   Diet, excercise, how active you are and where you go, what kind of surroundings you associate with are where many outward changes might be so very simple yet overlooked hereto and very necessary for the inward change wished for.  
But can any of these happen without Patience foremost?
Human nature is very complex, perhaps these all actually do fit under the statement, but I'm not sure if such an order any order can apply thoroughstitch.

Here are the three that I keep in mind, they are a bit simple and old fashioned though...

Patience, Practice, Perfection!            


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-06-2002 03:36 PM).]

Janet Marie
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4 posted 11-06-2002 02:09 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

receptivity to change, casual events, and validation.
==========================

I too, am in this place of seeking inner change...more so..finding inner peace...breaking old chains of patterns...learning to let go of past wounds that wont heal.....that sort of inner searching.....
anyway....of that statement... the "something" that does not feel quite "right" to me is the "casual events"...
Im dense, this I know...but I just dont get the full intent there. I will have to read Jims thoughts again...and maybe it will make more sense when the whole article is considered?  
And KA? smiling at your wry.
Essorant
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5 posted 11-06-2002 02:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Actually You seem the sparsest of density, but not densest of sparsity, right in between where, thoughts and feelings are chiming very eloquently.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-06-2002 02:55 PM).]

Christopher
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6 posted 11-07-2002 02:04 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

it was a typo - sorry about that. fixed now, thanks Jim. Will be back, because these are some great replies. Before I go - i'm looking at this, personally, from the perspective of my characters in my book. i think, however, that that makes little difference in the focus of this subject. will be back, thanks

Chris


oh - and i don't have the entire article. it was one in a magazine in my dentist's office and i wrote that part down to bring in here.

[This message has been edited by Christopher (11-07-2002 02:24 AM).]

Jamie
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7 posted 11-13-2002 06:34 PM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

Karen's reply is closely allied with my thoughts on the subject, in that there must be a quantitive aspect attached to the statement.

For the light bulb to actually give light ( effecting a change from dormant to illumination ) someone or something has to send the electricity to it and it has to arrive and then the bulb must use it.

receptivity to change: think of this as the resistance in ohms the electrical voltage encounters on the way to the bulb.-- more resistance requires more voltage to deliver the required amperage to effect the change.

causal event would be the action that sent the power on its way-- whether one's hand or an electronic device.

validation would be whether or not the bulb provided the desired illuminating quality you wanted.

same thing with people.. how resistant they are to change determines what is required to make them want to-- i may never stick a fork into a 110volt outlet again once it lights me up-- where as it may take 220v to dissuade you---lol,,

so don't have a crusty old sea captain changing his route of choice because a low pressure is forecast--- may take a category 3 hurricane to make him change course


darn-- did i actually say all that?

cheers
J

There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar.
byron

Christopher
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8 posted 11-14-2002 03:39 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

there ya go J, mixing metaphors again!

as i've thought about this more and more, i think i agree with what Jim said about it being applicable for many people / situations, but not all. I guess that's always the danger of dealing with a blanket statement. (note the irony, note the irony)

the portion i have the biggest issue with, i think, is the first part - receptivity to change. if you're in a car accident and lose a leg... there's the causal event (accident) and the validation (you no longer have one of your legs)... but what about receptivity to change? i don't think this is so much a necessity. sometimes... often, change is forced on a person, due, in fact, to those very causal events... so i would almost be inclined to say that #2 negates #1 - it doesnt' matter how much you're open to change, if there's a "causal event" you're going to be changed, right?

still battling with this one, thanks for the great input all. Karen - love those statements and see where some of them are going - am curious what you have to say though... lol, especially after Jamie's metaphor(s).
Christopher
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9 posted 11-14-2002 03:41 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

oh - and as an addition as I read JM's post over - i think that #1 may also negate #2... when considered from an intention to change.

receptivity (desire) to change -> validation. is the causal event necessary, or can one change without that? or, can the desire to change be a causal event?
Jamie
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10 posted 11-14-2002 08:15 AM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

...but a causal event doesn't always mean change either, - how many people move back into a trailer park after the tornado hits? ( of those that lived of course ) ..how many people continue smoking even after being diagnosed with some pulmonary disease or the other?
How many speeding tickets must one get before they pick their spots better? ( about 20 in my case--lol)

..and just how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop?
Christopher
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11 posted 11-16-2002 01:21 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

lol Jamie.

i think you're right there too, though i don't believe your examples are necessarily concrete here... your life has been changed after those events; you're more wary of tornados, you know you're going to die soon, and your ticket costs keep rising.

instead, i think one could argue that life is being in a constant state of change... i don't see how a causal event can help but to change a person. change doesn't ahve to be for the positive, nor, i would imagine, even visible. even a heightened awareness is a change. hmm - interesting.

as to the final question: one... two... thu-reee.
 
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