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Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


0 posted 10-24-2002 12:06 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Where is land where metal and concrete and business and haste are well proportioned with the face and pace of nature around it--the land is becoming more and more extinct.  It is because we have created a a diseasing reason that is really outrageous appetite drest up in suit and tie to seem/look rational--the philosophy of "More"  --more and more, whatever those people in suit and tie say it it will altogether and in one word be "more".  More vehicles, more computers, more buildings, institutes, industry, city, frequencies, business, ability to move faster.  We want a computer/machine answer to every problems and for every errand a computer/machine transporation.  What ever happened to modesty and nature as a main care??!  It is hard to know nowadays native beauty from flaunts of luxury, and to know what shame is when we give ourselves freedoms and means to be so explicit in so many ways.  We cannot know well our own selves in the postures of this kind of life. We cannot just hold our own bodies and thoughts at rest a moment and at peace but must be moving 24/7.  Whoever was the father of this philosophy?  It is insane. Don't we have enough for a moment?  Why don't we stay here and work with where we are at instead of adding more and more timber to the weight all the time.  Why must one conform to accept things that aren't healthy-that are diseasing. For some reason shame is no longer being felt.  Smoke and guns are commonplace. Is this not strange or wrong?  They do not hurt your self and dreams unless they've hurt your own life?  Do we have to be hurt or hurt to finally learn?  I hope not...it is just something I feel that seems to me not to need of anything more than less.
  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-24-2002 12:17 AM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


1 posted 10-24-2002 12:28 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I used to have similar concerns- how far is too far?

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I mean- should we be satisfied with treating AIDS patients with drug cocktails, or should we continue with a search for the cure?

Furthering technology in the automotive industry has led to hybrid cars that use substantially less gas than normal cars.

Yeah, furthering technology can lead to dangerous inventions, but an idea we were exposed to in my religion class is that that which is capable of doing great harm is also capable of doing great good. I think I can agree with that.

I can't really understand what you mean by modesty and shame, other than I get the idea that you consider these things virtues. I don't- I consider them vices. That is irrelevent, of course, except in that it shows that we don't all agree morally- and it's not really fair to expect the world's stance on technology and industrial development to rest on personal moral preferences.

[This message has been edited by hush (10-24-2002 12:29 AM).]

Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


2 posted 10-24-2002 02:12 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

     I think you are seeing many things for what they are.  There is something to be said for feeling a grave concern when looking at the world around us.  Technology (though not inherently wrong) has tempted us with wrong ideas... One is the idea that we are superior to previous generations because of our technological advances.  Yet we have for the most part built upon a cumulative body of knowledge and are greatly indebted to prior ages for our abilities to do the things we do... so we aren't really smarter as individuals, we are just in a better position to create technology.  The second wrong idea is the belief that technology is our solution to everything ... or that because of technology humanity  will solve every problem.  If technology was the human fix-it-all, then why has it also  created problems many of which are more complex than ever before.  I am not saying technology is bad in and of itself.  But if some think that by it we have  the means of undoing the human problem, then they are naive to say the least.  Technology is not the problem, but the fact that technology becomes problematic under our management  should indicate there is a basic and fundamental problem with humanity itself.  
    

I think what you are describing is  certain philosophies and ideologies in action.  Humanism and Materialism are the two that come to my mind.  The fact that we live in a blur of technological advances, but people are still depressed, living with fear, and devoid of certainty and purpose tells me there is something missing too.  No you are not the only one who sees cracks in the wall.  
    
We can still learn alot from previous generations.  Especially from those values held that we often disregard as archaic or hopelessly behind the times.  I think that modesty and a sense of shame are no doubt virtues .  We should not lug around a constant feeling of shame mind you, but the actual sensory apparatus  being operative when there is something to be ashamed about is proper.  I think the lack of shame in our day is a pathological condition.  So I agree with you.  It is meaningless to distinguish between virtue and vice from a morally relativistic base.  No matter how they slice it, it will always be one arbitrary opinion against another.  But there really are things in life more proper than others,  ways of life more winsome than others, and values superior to others.  If we deny this on some philosophical ground, we are merely covering up a pride which says "We cannot be wrong ... We cannot be corrected".  There is right and wrong.  And there is the worse and better.
    

I am not saying everything is wrong and everything is to be reproved in today's world.  I believe that God has gifted us with many gifts and has benefited us in many ways.  But what I am saying Essorant, is that I think you are not off, or strange in what you see.  You are describing what the Judeo-Christian world-view would call the "Fall of man", or the "Fall of creation".  It is basically descriptive of a world system gone awry.  Not everything is bad.  But because of sin having entered into the world, everything is moving toward an end, a cessation, a death.  Isn't it interesting that  philosophies which deny the "fall" can point to good things to affirm their views.  But it always was portrayed scripturally as the knowledge of "good and evil".  There is always the good that can be pointed out if anyone cries "something is wrong" too loudly.  But what I am trying to say is, you are seeing a truth.  Don't let any humanist philosophy succeed in convincing you that you are seeing a phantom, or that your odd views are a result of mere psycological phenomena.  There are all kind of ways it can be explained away as even the Judeo-Christian view is explained away.  It was invented after all (they say) to cope with the painful realities of a mechanistic universe.  No, you are seeing something real, that millions of others also have seen.
    

It was interesting that you asked who was the "father" of such a philosophy.  There is the "Father of Lies", Satan,  who has led us all astray into sin as individuals, and astray into confusion and haste as societies.  The sad part of this is that humanity has fallen ...past tense.  There is no self recovery.  And these trends you are seeing.... haste, waste, loss of purpose, loss of virtue, loss of respect for nature, loss of respect for life ... will continue and not improve.  These are a part of a world system which will perish, as the scripture fortells.  But there is an answer for all who seek the truth.  Jesus Christ came into the world preaching "Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand".  There is a new world to be obtained through Jesus Christ for all who believe.  I just encourage you to keep seeking the answers.  
    

I think One thing is certain.  Our society for all it's technological advances sometimes forgets a certain nobility of life.  It is a bit romantic I know, but there once seemed to be an honor to the human race... or at least the idea of honor.  Humanity was regal because it was created in the image of God.  And because humanity was regal, all of creation was sacred as well.  Chivalry has often been abandoned for a cold and clinical sterility.


Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (10-24-2002 02:20 AM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


3 posted 10-24-2002 11:58 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I don't think technology has anything to do with losing the nobility of life- humans have always killed. Ani DiFranco sings: "T.V. is, after all, the modern-day Roman Colliseum."

It's not our nature that has changed, but our methods. The killing is cleaner now. All that this has accomplished is fooling people into thinking our race is somehow more civilized than that now. It's not. We do still have that capacity- we just recognize it as a moral wrong now.

I don't think it's the mishandling of technology that indicates the 'fundamental problem' with humanity- I mean, sometime back in prehistory, someone had to figure out that a stick could be used for bludgeoning. Cain had to kill Abel. Murder had to start somehow, and it must have been a pretty long time ago.

Anyway, I know that this whole technology thread isn't about killing, and it's probably not even what you meant when you said nobility of life. But I guess I don't see how dwelling in the past can help our situation now. Yes, there are things we can learn, and some values that we can hold onto- but I find it a tad too fundamentalist to take everything in historical context at face value- I do think values need to be reinterpreted and reapplied in light of our contemporary world, because the ins and outs of society do change.

Personally, I'll take my opportunities today over having a husband chosen for me when I'm still a girl. I'll take my medical technology instead of dying from infections- I'll take surgery over amputation any day.

On a side note, it never ceases to amaze me when people post things on the internet complaining about technology. I love the internet- I'm not going to sit here and whine about how technology is ruining things when I am employing a very advance tool of technology to issue my statement from one country, so people in another country can read it, debate it, agree- that's a great thing! It really, truly is, and I can't understand it when people use technology to complain about technology.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


4 posted 10-24-2002 02:18 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hush,

I am not complaining about technology.  As I said previously, technology is not wrong.  But if there is something fundamentally wrong within us, then technology makes it more dangerous.  Whereas people at one time were limited to bludgeoning others with sticks, now we can kill millions with biological terrorism, or with nuclear weaponry.  The stakes have been raised by technology, but we have the same players at the table.  No, I agree that technology is not the problem, it is those who wield it.  I enjoy many things technology has to offer including the way I am communicating to you now.  But condoning technology in general can't be done any more than condemning technology in general... we have to take a look at each particular.  I am just wary of a certain pride that technology has brought out of our generation,  we think we are invincible in so many ways.  And we are much more daring to open Pandora's box somewhere or another.

Stephen.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


5 posted 10-26-2002 03:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Don't get me wrong, I hold opinion with you both well of the plenty good technology and paving and industry have done and will do yet.  Yet it is the profusing and non-evolutionizing pace at present, in this age, that puts my wits at much disease.  The smoke and grease, metal and concrete are in excess, we should be declining these but they are increasing more and more every instant. And when we are not with these it is excess plastic and rubber--You cannot find an item,  but it mass produced by the machines.  Soon hands will be doing nothing but working at machines.  People are seeking more advances with pleasure productions and mass media and technologies for cosmetic/aesthetic aspects instead viewing the crisis they are putting nature in.  Preserving nature and a modesty is one of the last things in most of our minds-- more economy, politics, industry, media, entertainment, art, and our pleasure always come first.  There is no more evolutionary steps in this style where things can move more naturally instead of forcedly, it is a revolution in every degree. We give us our goods all right, but little see that what gives us our life, and gave us our civilization are being buried and smothered by our excesses.  No wonder many so many people were able to believe that the world might have ended at the start of this millenium.  
There's too much media altogether in our lifestyle.  Media and advertising has become incorpsed into every living and non-living thing, you can't eschew it. It is flashing at every angle, engrained in all systems from head to to.  It won't let us forget how we should probably dress and look, nor let us stop thinking about the chaotic crimes happening--we are supposed to not ignore 24 hours a day.  Is this conducive to sanity?  No matter what people say there is no denying that media can influence a person in any way, it is a source of limitless ideas, and ideas of guns, of violence and sex are all excellently presented in mingle with religion and good sayings--we come to admire these ideas and anything we admire has an influence upon us, and more they will when they or we have little shame.
It is just another out of a million things that are too much in excess this age.  
Stephenos, you mention that many are seeing these things, why then are they so discarded from their daily words and deeds?
Is advancing business and technology more important than preserving nature?


[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-26-2002 04:16 PM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


6 posted 10-29-2002 11:21 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Stephen-

'But if there is something fundamentally wrong within us, then technology makes it more dangerous.'

Yes, that's true. Can't argue.

I look at it this way- technology is a tool (and after all, every tool is a weapon if you hold it right). And you're right, neither defending nor condeming technology does anything, because it's inherently neutral. I guess that leaves people to worry about.

I think that the problem is this- everything's a power play. Who's got the most nukes, who can we attack in order to command the oil trade, imperialism, etc. But it's always been that way- maybe the lack of technology made it simpler, maybe not. But if you believe that man was made in God's image, hasn't he inhereted His destructive power along with His creative power? That creative power drives us to invent what we can- things that are both marvelous and dangerous. And we use those marvelous things to save lifes, improve life, to entertain people, to provide people with goods and luxuries. But we are also capable of killing just about everything in a flood of nuclear, chemical, and biological weaponry...

Problem is, once we see that it can be done, it will be done. That's probably just human nature, pushing the envelope. But in colonial America, innoculations were pushing the envelope- now they're law.

I guess I'm rambling here- and I guess it doesn't matter, because I don't ahve one final point to make, because I don't know. I don't really believe that people using technology as a murder weapon are evil- but I don't think violence is the way to acheive something. Mahatma Gandhi said that while we are constantly making new discoveries in the area of violence, he feels that much more unexplored opportunity exists in the area of non-violence. Hopefully that will be explored, because right now, war seems pretty emminent.

Essorant-

Maybe one of the reasons I don't put much stake in your argument is that I find myself generally unaffected by commercial culture. I don't find it difficult to avoid or ignore advertisements, and they really don't sway my opinions all too much.

'more economy, politics, industry, media, entertainment, art, and our pleasure always come first.'

Preserving nature doesn't put food on anyone's plate. The economy does. The economy is fueled entirely by industry, service, entertainment, the production and marketing of goods- would you want people who write, direct, and act in commercials to die of starvation? Our economy just happens to rest directly on a culture of entertainment and extraneous commodities. It's something that's probably never going to be undone, because for us, a simpler lifestyle means millions of unemployed Americans.

Chaotic crimes have always happened. There has always been a status quo for the "right" way to look. You can't blame everything on technology. Yeah, media can influence people- so can lots of stuff. My boyfriend, my parents, my classes at school- all of these things influence me. It has more to do with the way people interract, they way human nature works, than technology. The only thing technology really does is put it on a broader scope- this, admittedly, does lead to a certain homogenization- but it also leads to nationally and globally accepted standards. Two sides to every coin. There are all the negatives you speak of- but what of the positives?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


7 posted 10-30-2002 02:26 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The source of real fuel will always be the natural world, if we smother this, our human technological world that seems trying to exempt itself from nature will as naturally as everything else die.  It is irrational to post off addressing the crisis we've put the natural world in by our own very unnatural ways of late, in special last century and this century.  We never used to be this unnatural, not in such a global and criminal way, it is the immoderation of things, especially business, media and technology I believe that has led to much of this.  The Lack of nature and natural surroundings is a most dangerous maker of evil acting in this day, it brings out an equally unnatural spirit or temperement.   Nature brings out a better temperment then buildings and vehicles everywhere.  I don't want to live in a wilderness, but I don't want to live in a metallic cemented world where it is very difficult to ever find green grass and fresh air.  It is just to difficult to accept the present state of things because I'm afraid that they will keep on increasing in these bad and unhealthy habits.  There can be no civilization without modesty or moderation and shame-these are what refine and temper our will, hold us in place and balance, but not always thoughtfully but naturally by a dignified and natural sensitiveness.  We are seeing these virtues disappear and because of this are seeing civilization and nature disappear, and that dignified sentiveness along with it--it seems we are simply not interested in civilization and nature anymore.  This is because business, money, technology, and our own pleasures have attained most of our highest daily attentions.  As you say there are two sides of the coines but the cause of my qualm is that the negatives are predominating...it is just too hard to accept  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-30-2002 11:18 PM).]

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


8 posted 11-03-2002 01:17 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What do you forsee the future will be?  
Once upon a time we could avoid excesses for our parents admonitions and what history showed as result by something that embodied them, but now a days it is unfortunate, it seems we need to be utterly devastated in order to learn some of the most important morals.  Some day the most main thing on our minds will be preserving and repairing nature because we will have impaired it so thoroughly with our ignorances through graduations of devestatoins it will be our only choice or complete extinction.  While we could look upon this now and work more preservingly of nature, we are not, but are more to technologies and businesses thinking less and less on nature and civilization.  This is ugly to my opinion.  We will only want to be destroy what we created for lack of ability to live in the conditions--we will really have no choice. I guess we are waiting for no choice or think some supernatural thing will put everything back into decent proportions.  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-03-2002 01:40 PM).]

 
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