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Passions in Poetry

Thinking, Aching

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Essorant
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0 posted 08-13-2002 05:03 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Other creatures find peace in this world naturally but we are forever bound, beasts of burden, under ages of thoughts our minds revolve in words swallowing.   We form inner governments fronting our own minds shared to find peace, but always impaired.  Why do we have to think?  Why isn't peace instant, and natural for us too?  Is thinking inside us on purpose, or a flaw of nature or accident of God?  Why can't we just do the right things offhand as one good nature could move us all to it?  Why can women think less but do right thing more than men?  
I'm curious for my own thoughts cause me too much difficulty and depression, and I wonder if there's any rational way out of the difficulty and depression?  
Hope you can share some.  Thanks.

Essorant.
hush
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1 posted 08-13-2002 09:56 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'Why can women think less but do right thing more than men?'

LOL... I think I'm going to do the 'right thing' by 'thinking less' about this comment and taking as little offense as possible.

To quote Ayn Rand, man is a being of volitional consciousness. Man's mind is what distinguishes him from animals- 'Thinking is man's only virtue, from which all other virtues proceed.' In other words, we don't come with a set of rules, we are born only with the ability to think and set those rules for ourselves.

Who is John Galt?

Essorant
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2 posted 08-13-2002 01:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

For all our ages of this "virtue from which all other virtues proceed" why then are we so viceful and abusing in what we do in this one?  We are in excess as if we never thought a thought like "nothing in excess"--
Everything is in excess and  
its hard now not to feel afraid of thinking itself that comes in excess to face excess.   The hand of thought has impaired nature, polluted sky, water,and cut and cremated forests, caused animals to go extinct, and imposed itself smotheringly on all things abusing its own capacity, always wanting more.  Other animals don't think and they find peace, we are beasts of thought who have thought for ages and still can't find peace. Why? And why do we continue to think more and want more, would not less make us smarter at this point? To follow our natures impulse of what is right and just?  I believe there is a wisdom that doesn't need to think to do the right thing that thinking often impairs out of joint, maybe we have to seek this wisdom more closely, and create a better balance between it and our thoughts, perhaps then we will finally be able do the right thing and God reward us.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-13-2002 01:37 PM).]

Stephanos
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3 posted 08-13-2002 02:17 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I think the answer to our corporate and individual frustration with the mind, has to do with our composite human nature.  Biblically speaking, we have three parts that work together... Body, Soul ("psuche" in Greek...or the mind), and Spirit.  


The problem came to be when the order of submission was lost.  Humanity's original state was Spirit, Soul, then Body.  The mind and the body were under control of the spiritual side of a person, which was in communion with the Spirit of God.  But when the spirit was disconnected from God's Spirit, the proper order and function was lost.  When the desires of the body are vaunted above the mind and spirit, we get problems.  Likewise when the mind is unduly exalted over the Spirit, thoughts become confusing because the orchestration of the Spirit is lost.  It's kind of like individual musicians trying to play in an orchestra without the conductor.  No matter what virtuosos are there, a cacophony will result.  No matter how insightful, how keen our thoughts are, if we do not find out how to be spiritual, they will lead further and further into confusion and depression.  I think that's why perhaps Solomon said "In much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow."  The Spiritual side of humanity is the peacemaker and moderator of everything else.  


It's not that thinking has no place.  It just has to be connected right, and in the right order.  That's what the scripture means which speaks of "the renewing of the mind", and of "the mind of Christ".  It doesn't mean that a spiritual man doesn't think... he just thinks right, or is at least learning to do so, with his thoughts coming in alignment with God's thoughts.  That is an awesome concept, that We could have the very same thoughts as God!  Amazing.


I think you are on to something when you say, "†I believe there is a wisdom that doesn't need to think to do the right thing that thinking often impairs out of joint, maybe we have to seek this wisdom more closely", because it is the order of seeking.  Seek God and you get true wisdom thrown in.  Seek wisdom without God and you get sterile philosophies and ways of thinking that lead to hopelessness and despondency.  


Since everything proper was lost as humanity rebelled against God (in the archetype of Adam), then everything must be regained through humanity as well.  But who can fix such an irreparably tangled situation as this (individually and corporately)?  No one, except God.  But a human hand dropped the ball, so a human hand must pick it up again, else nothing is fixed and justice is not served.  Yep.  God became a man and paid the price.  We have a new Father, a new Archetype,  the second Adam... Christ.  


This is the way for the corporate restoration of all things, in God's timetable.  But it is also the way for an individual's restoration.. a process that is going on as we speak.  You are correct.  There is a state of being which is right, which we are not naturally, and no matter how smart we get, or how deep we go intellectually, we cannot get it through natural means.  Just keep seeking.  "Ask and it shall be given, Seek and you shall find, Knock and it shall be opened unto you."


Stephen.

Not A Poet
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4 posted 08-13-2002 02:33 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

And to quote Mark Twain, "Man is the only animal that blushes ... or needs to."

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Ron
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5 posted 08-13-2002 02:43 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You're assuming that other animals don't think, which is questionable, and you're assuming that because of that they are at peace, which is highly unlikely. Except where man intervenes, animals typically spend 24 hours a day teetering on the edge of hunger. Or being hunted because of someone else's hunger.

We worry about "life," and it's good that we do. Animals mostly worry about survival, not just when they feel pensive, but every waking moment. Peaceful? I seriously doubt it.

Excess is never the result of rational thought, but invariably due to the lack of it. And I think peace, like happiness, isn't a state, but rather a moment. Neither people nor animals can be peaceful all the time, any more than they can be happy all the time, for either would inevitably lead to stagnation and death. We strive and grow precisely because we are NOT always peaceful or happy. Peace, when we are lucky and willing to accept it, comes only in brief moments. The setting of the sun, the sound of waves on a rock-strewn beach, the palpable quiet of a sleeping baby. Small slices of our life that exist not just in spite of the excesses, but often because of them and only in contrast to them. Moments.
serenity blaze
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6 posted 08-13-2002 03:10 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay...sigh...

and? I thought that post would make a nice bit of free verse (but they tell me I obsess: ) but seriously---hmmm...

Your answer is in your question:

"we form inner governments"

YES. From the day we are born--there is a very personal language we develop of symbolism--stare into the eyes of a one month old baby... There is depth, there.
They/We learn through assimilation-association. A more perfect language--based on feeling--which is never wrong (feelings have no right of way--they just are...)

It is through human interaction--and, it does behoove me to say so, language/WORDS that confuse communication. (<--if ya don't believe that, wait for the reaction....chuckle & )

Read a bit? Carl Jung--"Dreams, Memories & Reflections"

Peace.



*damnineedadaisy*
bsquirrel
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7 posted 08-13-2002 06:28 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I think the fact that you posted this in Philosophy rather than Feelings shows the problem right there, Essorant.

To try and think on everything is to try and exert a form of control on that which cannot be controlled -- life.

It is a tender delusion, but when that delusion gets in the way of life itself ... time to chuck it.

Or, write a poem.

Mike
hush
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8 posted 08-14-2002 02:27 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Ron said a lot of what I wanted to say.


You call humans 'beasts' of thought.... beast? It is only by the virtue of thought that we are seperated from 'beasts...' we have the ability to reason, of problem solving in capacities greater than that of any other animal. Yes, along with that come the more complicated, and sometimes unpleasant aspects of society... but as Ron mentioned, we can never be wholly at peace. It's better that society has intellectual challenges that all of humankind regress into a nomadic barely-survival.


Who is John Galt?

Essorant
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9 posted 08-15-2002 08:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

We seem abandoning our wisdom and knowledge thinking too much and too differently, viciously-that what makes us like beasts of our thoughts--abusing control and pleasure, and are thus becoming more opposite of what we most had in mind to become, because its the root of many depressions and evils.  Our anscestors came to simple realizations, truths and knowledge.  "moderation in all things" --I can't think of something this age seems to need more and that nature stresses most. What can this world have of peace if it doesn't have balance? And moderation is the maker. The human world is a mess of haste becoming more decadant and less peaceful than it has ever been for all our expertise. What happened to the virtue of modesty? Why don't humans listen to what they know?  I I want lighten up but I'm just aching a bit.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-16-2002 12:47 AM).]

MidnightSon
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10 posted 08-16-2002 06:51 AM       View Profile for MidnightSon   Email MidnightSon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MidnightSon

peace is instant now that we have the blender.
make a margarita, throw a lawn chair in the sand, and pop in the CD that makes you smile without having to work the skip control.

there's a buhdist proverb that says the world is perfect as it is. if you find something is wrong or out of place, then it is inside yourself.
make another margarita.
find your harmony.
simplify.
*slurp*

it's our struggle for identity that leaves us all unknown

hush
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11 posted 08-17-2002 01:18 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Okay.... I'm sorry... but I really have a problem with the idea that thinking is the root of all our problems.

'We seem abandoning our wisdom and knowledge thinking too much and too differently, viciously-'

What wisdom are we abandoning? How are we thinking differently... what do you mean? How are we thinking viciously... what do you mean? And what wisdom is available to those without knowledge? What do you mean by wisdom? To me, wisdom is the ability to apply knowledge practically- maybe our definitions conflict? Specify... generalities really obscure your point.

'that what makes us like beasts of our thoughts--abusing control and pleasure, and are thus becoming more opposite of what we most had in mind to become,'

Abusing pleasure? How can pleasure be abused? I don't understand. What did 'we' have in mind to become? By 'we,' do you mean you? What you had in mind for yourself, and all humanity to become? Because, not to be presumptuous, but by reading this post, I think I can say that what I have in mind for myself to become is vastly different than what you have in mind... and I do think it is very presumptuous for you to make a comment like that for all of humanity.

'because its the root of many depressions and evils.'

What evils? What depressions? And how so? I don't understand your point- it seems like you are making shots in the dark without supporting them. Maybe I'm... uh... thinking too much about this? But... you did post a thread maligning thought in a philosophy forum... so... I'm sure this had to be the response you expected?

'Our anscestors came to simple realizations, truths and knowledge.  "moderation in all things" --I can't think of something this age seems to need more and that nature stresses most.'

Well... as an American, it's my freedom to disagree with the truth of 'moderation in all things.' I practice moderation in some things... but... should we practice moderation in the advance of medical technology? In civil and social rights? In the advancement of skill, in all fields?

'What can this world have of peace if it doesn't have balance? And moderation is the maker. '

I don't understand what kind of balance you mean. Do you mean between the body and mind? Do you mean between the ideaology of different cultures? What exactly do you think is unbalanced that moderation can remedy? Should technologically advanced countries, such as the U.S., hang back and wait for others to catch up? Is that what you mean? Should 'enlightened' cultures wait for others to see the light... or try to show them it, so they can be balanced as well? I really don't understand what you mean here...

'The human world is a mess of haste becoming more decadant and less peaceful than it has ever been for all our expertise.'

Really? The world has always been tumultuous, and there has always been war...

'What happened to the virtue of modesty?'

I don't accept modesty as a virtue. I also think it's probably a mistake to project your idealogy of virtue as applicable to the entire human race- it's not.

'Why don't humans listen to what they know?'

What knowledge is available without thought?  

I am writing graffiti on your body
I am drawing the story of how hard we tried

-Ani DiFranco

SimplyGold
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12 posted 08-17-2002 11:00 PM       View Profile for SimplyGold   Email SimplyGold   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SimplyGold

Ron, thank you. You have summed it up quite well for me. Now, I just need to figure out how to make more space inbetween the moments.

SimplyGold
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13 posted 08-17-2002 11:02 PM       View Profile for SimplyGold   Email SimplyGold   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SimplyGold

Humm..maybe I need less space, longer moments?

[This message has been edited by SimplyGold (08-17-2002 11:03 PM).]

Essorant
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14 posted 08-18-2002 04:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I must go to eat and drink for while to  
refresh myself that I may duly defend the truth.  I'm not prepared to give up and say this is just my own confusion, just because hush has tangled me a bit.  
I will be back.

Essorant.
Essorant
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15 posted 08-18-2002 06:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hush,
I do deem thinking overall a virtue, I just feel thinking most of the time isn't, but that modesty most of the time is.  
I believe God is in our selves and that we naturally know all good and right, but the more we think, the more we tend to stray farther from God, and educated impulses .  I meant too "differently" from philosophies of our ancestors based on realizations, we are asking to be hammered on the head again.  Why is it needful?  Why do we have to think our way to peace when impulse tends to have better aim?  Thinking intrudes and makes sandblind the eye of wisdom, predominatly a rude discourse to life and detriment to the nature of things, it just takes perusing on how we have inflicted ourselves upon things to come to this-- how thought has made our hands harsh. The pollution, global warming, the crime, our outragous lack of abstaining- in substances, in pleasure, in business--this is what I mean by abuse.  It is like an indirect communication, less accurate and shouldn't be depended upon over a natural educated impulse.  


"Should technologically advanced countries, such as the U.S., hang back and wait for others to catch up? Is that what you mean? Should 'enlightened' cultures wait for others to see the light... or try to show them it, so they can be balanced as well? I really don't understand what you mean here..."

Our side of the world should stop wasting  time and money on its own pleasure and business of entertainment and advancement that is immodestly out of proportion and give just a bit better distribution of these to the other side of the world, that shows needing our help in much areas, instead of just putting hand in and paying attention to them it seems only when menacing war and massacres stand out.  No billionaire, or millionaire person or even corporation should exist while there are impoverished ill people and countries in this world.  No celebrity or sport should get more attention.  It just seems really unfair to me, and I wish I could change it all.


Essorant.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-18-2002 10:28 PM).]

Toad
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16 posted 08-18-2002 07:24 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


I agree with almost all of what Hush has said, the only part that offers a glimmer of disagreement is this:
quote:
. It's better that society has intellectual challenges that all of humankind regress into a nomadic barely-survival.

My problem is that Iím not so sure whether the nomadic barely-survival lifestyle isnít one that a large number of people actually yearn for. Almost everyone I know harbours the dream of getting back to nature or self-sufficiency, I admit theyíd probably last about two hours left to fend for themselves in the wilderness but itís the thought that counts. Itís like a mass nostalgia for a non-existent Grizzly Adams past that offers to break the chains forged by the elusive ĎThemí; an easy out to a place where life is simpler and clearly defined. Some people actually do it, most do it at on a part time temporary basis, you see them all the time in tents and camper vans with satellite television and microwave ovens - a safety line back to the real world  Ė  just in case.

What people are actually yearning for isnít to turn back the clock itís mostly to turn their backs on all the crappy things that society throws at them. The place theyíre aiming for doesnít really exist, the wilderness just has a different set of crappy things, most of them with sharp teeth and a lifetimes knowledge on how to use them.

It doesnít stop them thinking about it though.
Essorant
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17 posted 08-18-2002 08:39 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Thinking so much is like trying to dig your way to Canada from the opposite side of Earth instead of embracing the delights and scenery of travelling there on the surface.    But I don't say one shouldn't think at all, nor that I would like to see us exempt and nomadic, or complety governed by the wilderness again even though this would be safer for the world altogether.  We obscured from wilderness because thought befell, so we will just have to deal with it as rationally as our impulses can govern their dammed currents and try to find peace best we can notwithstanding.  But the only way we can do this is with moderation in these, so that we have moderation in what we do, or else the Human world hurts the natural world trying to control other things too much for lack of controlling itself.

Essorant.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-18-2002 09:08 PM).]

hush
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18 posted 08-19-2002 02:01 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Essorant-

'I do deem thinking overall a virtue, I just feel thinking most of the time isn't, but that modesty most of the time is.'  

The way you state this confuses me... you call thinking a virtue... but only some of the time... whereas modesty more often is... but... to my way of thinking... modesty holds us back. If Thomas Edison had said "aww, shucks... little old me can't invent a glass bulb that holds light..." yeah... if it wasn't him, somebody else would have... but... if modesty were such a collective virtue, people in general might say "aww, shucks, we people don't need/deserve a light bulb... candles will do just fine, thanks." And where would we be then?

'I believe God is in our selves and that we naturally know all good and right, but the more we think, the more we tend to stray farther from God, and educated impulses .'

I have no desire to start the God debate, but I must say... you pretty much said my point yourself, the only difference is the negative connotation you give to something I see as positive: 'but the more we think, the more we tend to stray farther from God,'

I must also say.... since when are impulses educated. I just spent over $500 on a new computer monitor and some other gadgets today.... it was an impulse... educated? LOL... I'd say not. If i were to apply thought to the situation, I would have acted with more moderation, and saved myself a considerable amount of money. By your logic, impulse is the better way to go... but... impulse leads to the satisfaction of desires... which generally isn't covered by moderation... There are no contradictions... one of us needs to check our premises.

'I meant too "differently" from philosophies of our ancestors based on realizations,'

There is evidence suggesting that ancient Romans and Greeks knew the world was round. That knowledge was lost in the middle ages. Early explorers believed that the world was flat. It is only by rational thought that mankind rediscovered the truth... it is only by rational thought that we overcame irrational beliefs.

'Why do we have to think our way to peace when impulse tends to have better aim?'

We have to think ourselves away form the state that impulse has brought us too. Hitler had the impulse to kill all Jews because of a presonal grudge against them. He also had the impulse to invade russia. those impulses didn't get him very far. Unfortunately, sometimes thinking our way out of a situation includes violence. The Russians thought their way out of an invasion by slashing and burning their crops and letting winter do the rest. I'm sure their impulse would have been to save thier land, their crops and property... but thought overcame impulse, and thought prevailed.

'Thinking intrudes and makes sandblind the eye of wisdom,'

I still can't say I know what you mean by wisdom.

'our outragous lack of abstaining- in substances, in pleasure, in business--'

I see abstinence as foolish in many cases. I will not abstain from pleasure when it presents itself to me- why would I? Why would I intentionally make my life less fun, less enjoyable, than it can be? Keep in mind that I do mean from a logical perspective- logic would have dictated that I keep my $500 today, if I had only $600 in the bank. Fortunately, however, I am in a poistion that I can afford to spend money on gadgets... so logically, it makes sense for me to please myself by doing so. Money in the bank doesn't make me happy. New stuff does.

How can one 'fail to abstain' in business? I just don't get it. What do you mean?

Substances are one thing to which I do hold the code of moderation. Can't disagree with you there.

'Our side of the world should stop wasting  time and money on its own pleasure and business of entertainment and advancement that is immodestly out of proportion and give just a bit better distribution of these to the other side of the world'

No it shouldn't. Nobody's happiness or prosperity should ever come at the expense of mine. If I choose to send money or donations to less fortunate people, that is an act of my own volition... I do believe in giving to others, but I believe in it as a primarily selfish  action. It makes me feel good to do it. It makes me happy to do it, therefore, I do it. There is mutual gain- a family is fed by my contribution to a food drive, and I am satisfied that I did my part. See what I mean? But nobody should ever be forced into such a social contract, because not all people see the virtue in giving. Not all people want to share. That's fine too.

'that shows needing our help in much areas,'

What do they do to deserve our help? What's in it for us?

'instead of just putting hand in and paying attention to them it seems only when menacing war and massacres stand out.'

This is true, and it irritates me to no end. Tossing alms to keep the less fortunate quiet about their plight is wrong, in my opinion. Logic and thought dictate that one would find the root of the problem and remedy it. Laziness and fear on the part of governments leads to 'keep it down' behavior.

'No billionaire, or millionaire person or even corporation should exist while there are impoverished ill people and countries in this world.  No celebrity or sport should get more attention.'

So, nobody of merit should exist while people who are unable to feed and clothe themselves exist? No prosperity while the poor exist? Better to have the entire world starving than only part? Demanding that people fall down to the lowest denominator gives no guarentee that others will rise for a common good. Instead, it digresses into a common squallor, where each man pleads his need, and no man is willing to disclose his ability, because he knows he will be faced with the burden of feeding another man's family while his own goes without. Who feeds the world then, with all ability eradicated?

Toad-

'My problem is that Iím not so sure whether the nomadic barely-survival lifestyle isnít one that a large number of people actually yearn for.'

In theory. Throw people out in the wilderness for two hours, like you said. See how much more they appreciate big business after that.

For the most part, we're in agreement here... You are basically saying that people yearn for a nomadic lifestlye but can't let go of 'real' life. I'm saying that people express a desire for social systems that will, ultimately, reduce a society to that level of squallor. They want it indirectly, without realizing exactly what it is that they want.

I am writing graffiti on your body
I am drawing the story of how hard we tried

-Ani DiFranco

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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19 posted 08-19-2002 03:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hush,
I would rather have a world condition with candles than one with weapons of mass destruction. If everything had been slowed down more that would have aided our approach
, we wouldn't have missed the good things. It would have given us more time to think less and thus more wit and sharpness to make choices withal.  
Imagine if Napoleon had been modest?  With all that energy. He might have been a saint.   I believe one of hightest virtues and priorities of Saint was Modesty itself, in all areas except pledging chaste devotion to religion and to the cause of giving.  I'm not saying we should be Saints!  But perhaps we should think about them more, these men and women of the past who forewent most personal selfishness and pleasure to give and help others around with out needing something in return knowinng they're helping a need.  I feel we shouldn't forget the thoughts, more we shouldn't forget the passions and deeds of these people, but maintain and continue them still somewhat in our own.  They are still somewhere within us and needed.
If one disciplines oneself to modesty, it will tend to be and become in the impulse that fleet and nimble desire that is like an arrow.  Thought usually can't be carried the distance because it is like a too-heavy battering ram--sometimes you need it but most of the time you shouldn't, while you have wisdom, a good sense of direction established.


"Hitler had the impulse to kill all Jews because of a presonal grudge against them. He also had the impulse to invade russia. those impulses didn't get him very far."

No impulses are ill unless thoughts somehow cause them to be.  It was pure radical thoughts that made the grudge that reared and ruled hitler and his empire.  He was thoughtful utmost, and in a way that left him with no good and nature, this is an extreme instance of what I mean by thoughts making hands harsh. If he had just thought less and felt more, his energy might have been toward something much different.  
When inner governments of any shape lack modesty, and moderation extremes become the means and extremes are still the means in many cases of this age.  
There is a lot of understandable reason on the other side of the world for spite and envy about lack of equality.   Look at North American luxury--we have so much we hurt ourselves with it.  A lot of us have our shingled roofs, isolation, drainpipes, toilet and sink, paved driveway, sometimes security systems,  our electronics and gadgets  etc.  This is already luxury, but think about celebrities like Adam Sandler and Tiger Woods.   While millions of people in the world are living houseless or in shambles, unable to get education,  scraping on streets for just a little bit of money so they can by food, or something that can help them just feel less the pain of their condition, here are two people who just act and play games and have attention all over them and pools of money, whereof most is spent on the mortgage for the mansion that could house a hundred, fur coats, security guards, the limo etc.. This is where modesty And where thoughts of saints should come in and influence us just a bit to give more, and perhaps want less.  The whole world should be united states, not just United States. United States tend to thinks its the omphalos of the world, that the rest of the world is inferior with less power and pride, but thats not the case, power and pride come in various shapes, and can sometimes come out more in the difficult conditions.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-19-2002 05:04 PM).]

Christopher
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20 posted 08-19-2002 04:31 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

i'm in complete agreeance with hush here as to your presumptions, many of which are based, i think, with good intentions, but are poorly thought out. i believe from what i've read here that your heart is in the right place... but that goes toward discrediting your whole theory.

without though, impulses get you nowhere. i think that's been established. take for example this means of communication you're using right now. i have to assume that you have access to a phone line and a computer, are able to read either printed word or braille, and that you're not out in this fabled wilderness mentioned above. that being the case, how in the world do you think you are able to do this? people thought about it, long, hard, and most of the time. if, as you proclaim, you would be willing to trade weapons for candles, then why aren't you trading internet for a few dollars that you could be giving the guy down the street who doesn't work? don't think about it - just do it...?
quote:
...but think about celebrities like Adam Sandler and Tiger Woods. While millions of people in the world are living houseless or in shambles, unable to get education, scraping on streets for just a little bit of money so they can by food, or something that can help them just feel less the pain of their condition, here are two people who just act and play games and have attention all over them and pools of money, whereof most is spent on the mortgage for the mansion that could house a hundred, fur coats, security guards, the limo etc..
here's where i start rolling my eyes. what you're suggesting is a quasi-communistic community that has less chance of working than the original model, and for the same reason - human nature, baby, human nature.

this is suggesting that people who work hard, hone their talents, and succeed, should support those who don't choose to work hard to gain a life for themselves. you can argue six ways from Sunday, but you'll never be able to convince me that most people who are homeless, hungry, etc. in this country, can't get a job and make a better station in life for themselves. to even attempt such a form of society would bring it crashing around our heads - based on the assumption that it could even be forced into existence in the first place which i think as likely as me holding my breath all the way to the moon. you would then have a society where the strong and the proud worked, while the weak and the lazy would simply live off the dividends, procreating in order to have more children who wouldn't work, because what the need? we are a product of our environment... and you would have that environment changed to encourage decadence?

*shaking head*

from Ayn Rand again: "I shall live my life for no man, nor ask that any man live his life for me."

We all have the opportunity to stand on our own feet and make our mark in this world as we see fit. This is not a guarantee for success. Yet sitting at home, living off of Tiger Woods' salary isn't getting you anywhere either. Live your life, think about it, and you can achieve great things. Sit at home, complain about the upper class, and you can achieve nothing but continuance of monetary, emotional, and mental stagnation.

[Edit]
Oh, and you might want to pick on Rich Beem this year, he won the PGA Championship yesterday by a single stroke (ten under par) for a modest prize of $990,000.00. Tiger came in second, and the poor guy only recieved $594,000.00.

[This message has been edited by Christopher (08-19-2002 06:59 PM).]

Stephanos
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21 posted 08-19-2002 04:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I have to agree with essorant on the point of the need for moderation.  Moderation is an interesting term... the latin root word is moderatus which means to restrain or control.


And to restrain is alot different than to abstain.  Moderation is the balance somewhere between Epicureanism and Stoicism.  In my opinion this is where life is most liveable.  


But in modern society it is valid to ask the question, which side do we tend to lean toward?  I think it is more than obvious that we (especially in the west) lean more toward an Epicurean way of life.  If there are two ditches, one being a monkish life of sackcloth, sand, and water, and the other being oversated palaces of pleasure, which one do we drift towards the most?  The blind lead the blind, and they both fall into the ditch.  


What if there have been men and women in history who have seen the dangers of excess both individually and corporately, and they are somehow meant to be "eyes" to us?  The fact is, there have been  countless who have seen this danger.  And for any who are prejudiced against Christian influence, this idea doesn't come from just Christianity but from many world-views.  Siddhartha Guatama (who began what is known as Buddhism) also saw the dangers of excess, unbridled pleasure, and amassed wealth.  As a matter of fact it's what sent him on an agonizing search for the answer of human suffering.  Now as a Christian, I do believe Guatama came to the wrong answer, but I believe he had the right question, and also saw many truths.  The valuing of temperance is in most every world religion... why?  May I venture to say, it's because it is real wisdom.  And wherever people have sought wisdom it has been found by them in some degree.


It might be foolhardy not to take into consideration what many respected and devout thinkers have repeated over and over throughout history, and say "well there's nothing to that".  


As to the area of thinking...  I am not in agreement that thinking is evil.  In many cases not thinking is evil.  I think what may be detrimental is a prideful intellectualism.   This is different than thinking, or even being thoughtful.  It is raising the intellectual aspect of humanity to the place where it is the arbiter of everything.  When it is the sole consideration, a problem arises ... morality gets left out in many instances.  Because ethics do not always support what is most "profitable", or what yields the greatest immediate returns.  In fact the moral aspect of mankind says that it is always more profitable to be moral in the long run even when you can't see it.  I guess that's where the word faith comes in, because it takes a degree of seeing the unseeable.  But in reality we have had so many examples throughout history and so many teachers who have had wisdom, that the faith aspect is smaller than ever.  We can see the profit if we look closer.


If the spritual side is ignored, our thinking always goes awry.  If the spiritual side is discovered as a "pearl of great price", we don't quit thinking... we just "think different".   .  Thinking is not thrown out as if it is the problem, it just comes under subjection to something more important, something more profound.  Isn't it interesting that the forbidden fruit has been called "the knowledge of good and evil"?  Meaning in my mind, that we have so often chosen our own determination of good and evil, apart from the eternal Spirit of truth.  But when we do get reconnected with him, he doesn't shut our brain off, he rewires it (so to speak).  


Stephen.
Christopher
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22 posted 08-19-2002 04:41 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
As to the area of thinking...  I am not in agreement that thinking is evil.  In many cases not thinking is evil.  I think what may be detrimental is a prideful intellectualism.   This is different than thinking, or even being thoughtful.  It is raising the intellectual aspect of humanity to the place where it is the arbiter of everything.  When it is the sole consideration, a problem arises ... morality gets left out in many instances.
Very well stated Stephen.
Toerag
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23 posted 08-19-2002 04:57 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

I'm not sure where you got the "women think less and do the right thing" from...so maybe ya should just ask someone brilliant like Anna Nicole Smith?....besides, I'm a man, and unlike the animals that may or may not think, I think I'll go get a steak and a beer.....just pondering of course, don't guess animals ponder either...do they?....sometimes "thinking" is carried to an extreme then we get mixed up on whats correct or incorrect....then we have indecision....(women call this procrastination in men)...LOL....women have that motherly instinct stuff...but men figure out ways to get around that.....good luck, and don't get too depressed...if you get too depressed, leave your woman....
Toad
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24 posted 08-19-2002 06:00 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad

quote:
Thinking so much is like trying to dig your way to Canada from the opposite side of Earth instead of embracing the delights and scenery of travelling there on the surface.


And travelling there on the surface wouldnít involve thinking?

Not thinking is a neat trick, the fact that itís impossible is probably the biggest hurdle we need to get over before we master it. That was my point earlier with the wilderness thing ďIt doesnít stop them thinking about itĒ. We canít not think, even instinct in stressful situations involves a thinking process, the higher levels of the brain that give you options and choices are suppressed leaving the lower levels to issue rapid commands. If these thinking functions are the ones you mean for us to use thereís another slight hitch. The lower brain functions on simple commands commonly concerned with rapid response to emergency situations, theyíre quick because they arenít interested in weighing the pros and cons, the situations they deal with require action NOW, itís a last gasp 50/50 decision that in such situations is worth the risk. This is where things can, and often do, go wrong.

Ever caught a rabbit in your car headlights?

The rabbit isnít hypnotised by the light, it isnít frozen with fright, itís just come up against one of those emergency situations, the higher levels of itís brain, the options, are closed out and it asks itís lower level functions to tell it what to do. The lower brain sees two white objects three-foot off the ground travelling at thirty mph, works out it canít outrun them and shouts FREEZE.

Have you ever caught a rabbit in the headlights of your car that just turned casually and hopped out of the way?

Well theyíre the intelligent ones.  

BTW Chris

You sold me on the quasi-communist society idea, living the high life and all that procreation and no work to boot?

Where do I sign Comrade?

[This message has been edited by Toad (08-19-2002 06:13 PM).]

 
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