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Passions in Poetry

for curiosities sake?

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Syneq
Junior Member
since 07-28-2002
Posts 41


0 posted 07-29-2002 05:39 PM       View Profile for Syneq   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Syneq

This is but a question...

In regards to afterlife, the hereafter, the possibility of none, etc. etc., do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?"

Why would you?

Disintegrated to materialize in reformed delight.

Sudhir Iyer
Member Rara Avis
since 04-26-2000
Posts 7206
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


1 posted 07-30-2002 06:51 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

Even in any other context, most of us face a moment or two or more where there is a natural dilemma as to if the thing we are doing is right or wrong... the "what if" governs us, and hence also acts as a controlling agent for austerity in our lives, somehow...

WHY?

probably because DOUBT is such an integral part of life just like BELIEF...

A good measure of both seems to be healthy...

Good luck with wisdom gathering...

Regards,
sudhir
Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


2 posted 07-30-2002 09:40 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"In regards to afterlife, the hereafter, the possibility of none, etc. etc., do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?"

~ I don't understand what you are asking. "What if we are wrong?" or if I or you are wrong, as different people have different beliefs.

Why would you?

~ Why would I what?
Moon Dust
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since 06-11-99
Posts 2250
Skelmersdale, UK


3 posted 07-30-2002 04:32 PM       View Profile for Moon Dust   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Moon Dust

because none of us are perfect and there is a possiblity that each of us inderviduals could be wrong about certain beliefs

If your afraid of the dark, then why did you come?

The Napkin Writer
Member
since 06-28-2002
Posts 72


4 posted 07-30-2002 06:28 PM       View Profile for The Napkin Writer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for The Napkin Writer

Iíve had a thousand and one thoughts of the afterlife over the years.  Iím not even sure what my last vision was; in fact, I donít think Iíve given it much thought up to these past couple weeks.  

I guess initially, everyone thinks of whatever place we were first taught.  My teachings gave me thoughts of there being a magnificent Garden of Eden.  

I think the belief in the afterlife can in someway justify a ďflip-sideĒ to ones life.  Similar to the biblical story told of the rich man, who dies and goes to hell, and sees Lazarus lying in Abrahamís bossom, and even ask that Abraham send Lazarus that his brothers not suffer the as he himself has.  We know what Abraham answer was to him, but the scripture tells us more then a story of being the opposite of how we have lived.  It becomes a story of stewardship, of our deeds in life, and not having to do with what we have gained in life, but what we have given each other whole heartily, open heartily, and with love.  I often think of what contributions I like to give to the world over the coming years, of whatever years I may have left on this earth, and I think farther, of whether those contributions would be enough to outweigh the sins I have committed in my earlier years.

This subject you speak of, ďthe afterlife,Ē burdens my heart when I retrace my life, knowing the truth of where I came from, the hate I held inside.  How my life had to be beaten down in the pits of what I had become, confined to live in this pit of evilness in my heart, so that I know there is no more excuses for not knowing, that only Christ could have brung me back from where I once lived, and what I once believed.  

So maybe I do, deep inside, hope, for just a glimmer of what I have perceived the afterlife to be.  No!  Itís much more deeper than that!  I dream, I imagine, and I pray that there is an afterlife, a flipside of what Iíve known in life!   You know years ago, the fear of standing before Jesus, being condemned to hell, and never to find that peaceful paradise, stopped me from committing suicide!  Funny thing this afterlife you speak of, reminding me of the secrecy Iíve held onto, wishing, praying, hoping, that Iíd have a place there!

Good topic, it made me stop, sit down and take out a pen

I looking forward to hearing more responses on this subject  

Originally Yours,
The Napkin Writer

Denise
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Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


5 posted 07-30-2002 08:44 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Syneq,

It, like everything else, falls under the umbrella of faith. The evidence is out there for all to examine and to either believe or disbelieve based on one's peception of the "evidences". Questions and doubts are good as they lead us on to investigate until we come to a satisfactory conclusion that answers the deepest needs within. We've all had our questions and doubts. Without them we would never learn or even care to learn.

Napkin Writer,

I relate to much of what you have shared concerning your fears and your struggles. I've come to realize through years of searching that our contributions or good deeds could never outweigh our sins. Entrance into heaven requires perfect holiness, and none of us qualify. We don't owe God church membership, commitment, promises of obedience, submission, giving of money, baptism, etc. We owe God the death penalty for our sins, even if we had commited only one sin. That's where Christ comes into the picture.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

God loves us soooo much that He provided the only possible remedy for our wretched situation and offers it to us as a gift to be freely received through faith in the substitutionary sacrifice of His Son. Jesus died our death for us and its benefit is appropriated, personally, through trusting in the sufficiency of His sacrifice on our behalf. When one is convinced of that fact, for themselves personally, they have assurance that they will enter heaven, not on their own merits, but on the merits of their Substitute. Any contributions or good works come into play after salvation out of a heart of love and gratitude and to bring glory to God in the hope of winning others to Christ and not as a condition for salvation.

God is far more gracious and loving than most people know or could dare to hope. But for those open to checking it out, they will find Him to be more than they ever dreamed possible.

I would suggest starting in the Gospel of John and then read through Romans, Ephesians, Galations, and the other Epistles. I would also suggest that one should wipe the slate clean of any preconceived notions or ideas one may have from their upbringing or from their church, etc., as they could be incorrect and lead to a faulty interpretation.

I read a good description of saving faith once:

"What do you believe and how do you believe it?" 'This is what I believe: That God is satisfied with the sacrifice of His Son. And I am satisfied with it: This is how I believe it.'

I just came upon a great link that I will go look up and post here for any who care to check into for further insight.

Be back in a bit.

Here's the link. I hope it proves helpful. There is a whole list on the left hand side of the page for different topics.


http://www.e-grace.net/salvation.html

And here is another link that I just remembered. This guy preached at my church two Sundays ago. He was very good.


http://freddiecoile.org/


[This message has been edited by Denise (07-30-2002 09:03 PM).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


6 posted 07-31-2002 01:11 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

My thoughts on afterlife are:
http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/afterlife.htm

To say that I wonder if I may be wrong wouldn't encapsulate the broader knowledge that I cannot possibly be right.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


7 posted 07-31-2002 01:24 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

and a great one from walker
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/eht.html
The Napkin Writer
Member
since 06-28-2002
Posts 72


8 posted 07-31-2002 07:40 AM       View Profile for The Napkin Writer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for The Napkin Writer

Everytime I post anything, my thoughts, my opinions, my poetry, is forever being attacked.  

I wonder why?  

To tell you the truth, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing my name, so I'll keep my opinions to myself.

I changed my mind, Holwwwwwww!!!!

[This message has been edited by The Napkin Writer (07-31-2002 08:30 AM).]

bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


9 posted 07-31-2002 02:56 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Of course we all have those doubts. But when we're dead, we probably won't have them any more, one way or the other.  

And N.W., calm down. This forum is meant for deep, probing discussions. Those might feel like attacks, but they're attacks on the question posited, NOT on the poet posting said question.

Said if I only could ...
-KB


[This message has been edited by bsquirrel (07-31-2002 02:58 PM).]

MidnightSon
Member
since 05-15-2002
Posts 328
between the gutter & the stars


10 posted 07-31-2002 04:47 PM       View Profile for MidnightSon   Email MidnightSon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MidnightSon

i have doubts about afterlife because no one's ever come back to give us the low down.

i hope there's not an afterlife... this one's hard/strange/fun enough isn't it?

but if there's a hell...well at least i won't be lonely.

it's our struggle for identity that leaves us all unknown

Toad
Member
since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


11 posted 07-31-2002 06:14 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


I donít have doubts about the afterlife basically because I donít have any strong beliefs either way, after all itís hard to doubt what you donít know, that would be doubting doubt so to speak.

(If anyone understands what Iíve just written would they please reply and explain it to me so I at least look as if I know what Iím talking about if anyone asks me to elaborate)

Thanks for the chance to read and reply

Stephanos
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Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


12 posted 08-05-2002 11:52 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

MidnightSon,

If you find the time, read the gospel of John (and the other three also... Matthew, Mark, and Luke).  There has been someone in History who "came back" to give us the low down... Jesus Christ.


Of three things I am sure.  

1) There is a Heaven.
2) There is a Hell.
3) Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again so that we would be able to avoid the latter and enjoy the former forever.
But to agree with what several have said... who of us knows exactly what Heaven is like... or Hell?  I do know that Heaven will be more glorious than anything imaginable.


Stephen.
Sudhir Iyer
Member Rara Avis
since 04-26-2000
Posts 7206
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


13 posted 08-06-2002 05:02 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

I really thought that the original question was

In regards to afterlife, the hereafter, the possibility of none, etc. etc., do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?"

Why would you?


and Stephanos, in my honest opinion, I don't believe you and nor can I comprehend how you can know....

maybe I am a moron, but when I read/hear some of the preachings here and at other places, I would rather be an uneducated, illiterate, imbecile... and I am sorry to myself to let this vent out ...

Regards to all of you,
Sudhir
Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


14 posted 08-06-2002 11:30 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Sudhir,

     It's good to be honest.  No offense taken that you are venting.  It is a difficult subject altogether, and strong feelings are there no matter what you believe.  Even those who believe that we can't be sure of anything in regard to the afterlife are irritated when anyone says that we can.  I can relate.  Until I was assured for myself, whenever someone talked about such things as if they knew, it struck me as arrogant, self-righteous, or just child-like foolishness.  


But as to what you said about the original question "do you ever find yourself saying "What if were wrong?"...

My whole point is that we are wrong, all of us to some degree or another.  But in History there is one who died, came back (literally) to tell us about it, and then ascended into the Heavens.  So I am not trusting my own ideas about Heaven as much as I am hanging on the words of another, ... Christ.  And even then he doesn't give me all the details (all the books in the world couldn't contain that), just how to attain it ... by trusting and believing the Good news of his salvation.  It may sound like arrogance, but in reality I have counted my own ponderings about eternity to be very insignificant in light of what Jesus Christ teaches. . .  I have given up for myself.  Because in my own human evaluation I am always wrong.


As to you, I would pose the question back again also.  You feel that in regard to the afterlife, that no one can really know ... but what if you were wrong?  What if we can know?  And I am telling you as best I can, that we can indeed know.  Isn't it attractive for just a moment to imagine that we can have some certainty about such weighty questions, and not always live in the maelstrom of human ideas and opinions?  Just something to ponder.


Respectfully,

Stephen.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


15 posted 08-06-2002 11:56 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

From personal observation... the flipside to 'there are no atheists in foxholes' -- is I've never seen a dying person who wasn't afraid -- at least a little.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (08-07-2002 12:05 AM).]

CwboyAtHeart
Senior Member
since 04-14-2001
Posts 686
Selah, WA, USA


16 posted 09-19-2002 10:32 PM       View Profile for CwboyAtHeart   Email CwboyAtHeart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit CwboyAtHeart's Home Page   View IP for CwboyAtHeart

I believe very strongly in God and I have strong Christian values.  I definitely believe that there is a heaven and I plan on going there in the afterlife.

However...  If I were wrong, which I have faith that I'm not...  I believe that we would simply seize to exist after death.  If I died and there was no heaven, then my life still would have been lived very well, with great values, a family that loved me, a great church "family"...  I would have lived believing in God, so I would have no fear toward death.  I think that if the afterlife isn't what I believe it will be, that my life still would be well lived, and my faith in God still being very good for me to pull me through tough times.  

††††††- Cody -

Note To Self:††If Pigs Can Fly, So Can I!!!

If someboy laughs at me, does that make me funny or just plain stupid?††

Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


17 posted 09-19-2002 11:35 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

there is a possibility that were wrong? I always thought I was right. J/K

I guess as humans nothing is a 100% unless proven otherwise.  We need proof.  

Personally, I go by my faith and hope that holds me.

I guess if I was proven wrong, I would be dead so it woulden't matter.

But if for some reason they prove it now, me being a human, I would still question it.
Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


18 posted 09-20-2002 12:00 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I am sure that there is no hell or heaven. The concepts of both hell and heaven are man-made and can be traced as far back as archeology and history can reach.

That people tell others that if they do not believe in or live a certain way, or believe in a certain being, that they are to suffer forever in a hellfire for not believing...disgusts me.
Sudhir Iyer
Member Rara Avis
since 04-26-2000
Posts 7206
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


19 posted 09-20-2002 12:12 PM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

does the concept of afterlife have anything to do with christianity or any other religion for that matter?

just aimlessly questioning... for curiosities sake?

regards,
sudhir
Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


20 posted 09-20-2002 12:17 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Of course it does     Man also created the concept of having a "soul."  Many uneducated people believe that the idea of an immortal soul originated with Christianity and the Bible, however that is not true. The immortal soul doctrine, as we know it today, was derived through ancient Greek philosphy.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (09-20-2002 12:17 PM).]

Ron
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since 05-19-99
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Michigan, US


21 posted 09-20-2002 02:29 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Opeth, I envy you your certainty. But not your need to justify it. Eating can be traced as far back as archeology and history can reach, too. So?

Sudhir, life-after-death predates Christianity by at least a few thousand years and is a tenet in most religions. That, and a host of such commonalties, are often used as arguments against religion, but they can just as easily be used as argument for religion. What do you do when your stomach grumbles and you recognize the discomfort of hunger? You eat, regardless of your epoch or culture. And even if the food isn't nutritionally sound, it gets you through the day. If one presupposes a spirit side of humanity, it's not difficult to argue that separation from our creator has left a spiritual hunger we've been trying to assuage since time immemorial.

Justification is a double-edged sword that cuts in any direction. It's still nothing more than justification, and only wears the mask of logic. In the end, we usually believe what we want to believe.
Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


22 posted 09-20-2002 03:56 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

Question.  Why do humans always have to have "proof" and a trail of paperwork to "believe"  Can't faith be enough?

[This message has been edited by Miah (09-20-2002 03:56 PM).]

jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


23 posted 09-20-2002 04:44 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

"Can't faith be enough?"

No.

Gotta run.  More later.

Jim
Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


24 posted 09-20-2002 06:13 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

jbouder,

Why not?
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