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The Napkin Writer
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since 06-28-2002
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25 posted 07-30-2002 01:23 PM       View Profile for The Napkin Writer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for The Napkin Writer

There really is a lot of truth, honor and love in these pages, you know, I think I'll stay for a while!

Peace,
The Napkin Writer
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


26 posted 07-30-2002 01:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel



You mean Santa wasn't born on December 25th?

WHat next???

What NExt????
Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


27 posted 07-30-2002 02:43 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I missed that reply ~ lol!

And the Easter Bunny wasn't born on Easter either.

When searching for truth, I was amazed at how much of what I was taught was a mix of "biblical" and "pagan" beliefs.  It shouldn't surprise anyone, I mean, if anyone ever partook in "The Haley's Comet" experiment, one would easily understand how such mixes occur.
Ron
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28 posted 07-30-2002 06:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

It's interesting how everyone seems ready to agree about lies, but no one can agree on truth. Is that even possible?
Denise
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29 posted 07-30-2002 09:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Well, some say that the birth of Christ happened on December 25, some say January 6, some say most likely September calculating by when Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth, and now I see some say October or November. To my way of thinking the actual date doesn't matter, or we would have been given an actual date.

Regarding the accuracy of translations of the Bible, one can either learn Hebrew and Greek and/or use a literal translation from the Hebrew and Greek such as Young's Literal Translation. No translation will be as accurate as the original language but most of us won't be learning Hebrew or Greek anytime soon!

Ron, possible? I suppose. Probable. Nope!

hush
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since 05-27-2001
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30 posted 07-30-2002 10:16 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I have found that to my way of thinking, I usually deal with things in a process of elimination. It is much easier to sort out that which is not possible than all the things that are possible...

There is a lot of evidence supporting the idea the Christ's birthday was set at December 25th to coincide with the pagan celebration of Saturnalia- a traditional Roman holiday. When Constantine decided to convert Rome to Christianity, he had to find replacement holidays. Which, to me, is a logical explanation.

Who is John Galt?

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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31 posted 07-31-2002 12:55 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Oh GOD!!! (who, like Einstien, I am not convinced is particularly obsessed with humanity)  NOT the EASTER bunny !!!

Just tell me there's a Tooth Fairy...pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?  leprechauns?  Great Pumpkin?
Opeth
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The Ravines


32 posted 07-31-2002 08:18 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Hush ~ You are correct. In fact, Christianity is chockful of pagan rituals, beliefs, etc taken from other religions and customs.

As for the comments about the translation of the Bible from its original language....

A concordance, such as Young's, is also slanted. The best concordance to use would be one that is nuetral of any branch of Christianity...that would lead Strong's concordance of the Bible as the best tool for truly understanding the Bible without subjective slanting of the text.

Examples are too numerous to count, but I will provide two good ones...

1. Easter, this English word is not in the Bible, however, there are many Bible's in which the translators have blatantly mistranslated the Greek word "pascha" as the pagan word Easter. Why? Because "passover" was too Jewish, a Jewish custom ordained from God to keep forever ~ all His people, so certain so-called the Christians, in order to separate themselves from Jewish LAWS, changed the word to Easter, which originally meant the God of Eastern = a pagan God of Fertility, henceforth the EASTER BUNNY!

2. Punctuation marks. There was no punctuation marks in the original scrolls, but in order to slant a belief of an immediate hellfire or soul existence upon death, one passage stands out...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you {COMMA} Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."

Many doctors of theology will point to this passage as proof of an immediate existence upon death, however, if one changes the placement of the comma, it would read this way...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you today, [emphesis on the time of the promise] thou shalt be with me in paradise."

The Bible has been translated by men with the intention of making it conform to their beliefs.
MidnightSon
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between the gutter & the stars


33 posted 07-31-2002 04:39 PM       View Profile for MidnightSon   Email MidnightSon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MidnightSon

*whew*
i'm all worked up now, but thankfully i'm too tired and lazy to type it all down and then read all the ensuing replies... (i'll prolly read em anyways...)

but about the taking pagan rituals and twisting of pagan faiths to make christianity into the good guy (even though they were slaughtering hundreds of people during the inquisition and european witch hunts)... there's a lot there i could say. i wrote an 8 page paper on it... but y'all are right on that point. i mean, for another example (besides the Dec. 25th thing) is the devil.

ever wonder why he's got horns and hooved feet...part goat? maybe because the pagan god, the popular religion of the people in europe at the time, has horns an hooved feet... i mean why not turn your enemies' god into your devil? kinda like political mudslinging on a cosmic scale....

but beyond that was the bible stuff... now i won't lie. i was raised Catholic until the age of reason (meant jokingly, don't slam me just yet), and then i started branching out in my studies of faith. i try to get along with the churc i left, i really do... but there's an emnity there that still make me shudder when christians come out of the woodwork spouting bible verses...

i don't wanna offend everyone or anyone, but i do want you to know where i'm coming from.... so there it is. hope ya ain't too hurt.

"The only thing I regard as being cast in stone, is what is written in the bible.
In the beginning there was the word.  And the word was with God."

have you read this book cover to cover? there are some creepy stories in there.
taking the bible literally (ANYTHING literally) is dangerous.
i mean, when Lott fled Sodom and Gemorrah with his family... you know that story i'm sure. his wife looked back after god said not to and turned to salt... well then Lott commits incest with his two daughters to populate...i think the moabs..but that story's in there.

it even says in the bible that a woman may not speak in Church without the permission of her father, including singing in choir and teaching Sunday School.

But i mean, i'm not gonna sit here and point out all the contradictions of the faith. why not?
one it would take too long.  
two, faith is an important thing. not pursuing a certain faith, but just having faith.
Like said in the movie "Dogma": no religion's got it down yet.
all i'm saying is don't let your bible dictate your life...cause there's a lotta "Good Books" out there.

and as for the truth ?
you'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.

*gets off the soapbox*

PS: for more intricaies of the bible, read "Rescuing the Scriptures from Funamentalism" by J. Shelby Spong (an episcopalian archbishop). he's got a lotta books, but a lot of what i jut spouted is from there. it's even got the chapters and verses so you can go be apalled for yourself.

it's our struggle for identity that leaves us all unknown

[This message has been edited by MidnightSon (07-31-2002 04:43 PM).]

Denise
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34 posted 07-31-2002 09:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Opeth,

I was referring to the Young's Literal Translation of the Bible, not the concordance. The YLT Bible is a word for word literal translation from the original languages. Regarding concordances, I have also heard that Strong's is one of the best available.

As far as the word Easter goes, it is not found in most translations and most certainly not in any of the literal translations, including the Young's. That it appears in some translations, or that we use the word today when speaking of the day of Christ's resurrection is probably due to the melding of Christianity with the pagan cultures in times past. The same could be said, and has been, about the celebration of Christmas. That these 'traditions' have been passed down through the centuries in our chritianized societies does not negate that there is still the reality of God and His truth that can be found in the Bible. Man's traditions, compromising with pagan cultures, etc., does not change that. We don't throw out the baby with the bath water. To me, it doesn't matter what you call the birth day or resurrection day of Christ. What's in a name, after all? What really matters to me is that there was a birth, a substitutionary death and a resurrection. To me, that's the crux of God's message to man down through the ages. Everything else is either a peripheral issue or a non-issue.

MidnightSon,

Religion has certainly twisted mens minds. No good has or ever will come from it. There is a great deal of difference between religion and God though. I believe that the Bible is His word to us and that it is inerrant, non-contradictory when read in context, and definitely to be taken literally except when it is obviously using figures of speech. The best interpreter of the Bible is the Bible itself. A good reliable translation from the original languages and a good concordance are worth more than a million commentaries by a million archbishops.
Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


35 posted 08-01-2002 10:57 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Well said, Midnitesun.

Denise,

"I was referring to the Young's Literal Translation of the Bible, not the concordance. The YLT Bible is a word for word literal translation from the original languages."


~ Interesting...So does this version of the Bible state that the "wages of sin is death" or that the wages of sin is eternal separation from God? Big difference.

"As far as the word Easter goes, it is not found in most translations and most certainly not in any of the literal translations, including the Young's."

~ Hmmm, a very popular version of the Bible is The Good News Bible, widely read, especially in the SouthEast, it states, "Easter" instead of "Passover."

"That it appears in some translations, or that we use the word today when speaking of the day of Christ's resurrection is probably due to the melding of Christianity with the pagan cultures in times past."

~ Yes, of course. So why celebrate Easter, which is of pagan origins, instead of celebrating Passover, just like Christ and his disciples did? (his apostles did, even after His death)

"That these 'traditions' have been passed down through the centuries in our chritianized societies..."

~ Your own Bible states not to believe in and avoid "traditions of men" yet Christians do?

"...does not negate that there is still the reality of God and His truth that can be found in the Bible."


~ Cannot His truth also be found in the Koran and other religous literature?

"Man's traditions, compromising with pagan cultures, etc., does not change that. We don't throw out the baby with the bath water."


~ Again, Christ warns the people not to believe in another Christ, the one founded on the traditions of men.

"To me, it doesn't matter what you call the birth day or resurrection day of Christ. What's in a name, after all?"


~ Excellent question for a Jehovah's Witness...they believe there is MUCH in God's name.

"What really matters to me is that there was a birth, a substitutionary death and a resurrection. To me, that's the crux of God's message to man down through the ages. Everything else is either a peripheral issue or a non-issue."


~ If one studies the Bible carefully and without any subjectiveness for a particular denomination, or for the sake of not becoming a piriah in one's own community, I would disagree with that statement. However, with that being said, believe what you want, but just remember, your belief is just that yours and that doesn't make it the truth for all.  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (08-01-2002 11:00 AM).]

Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
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36 posted 08-01-2002 06:12 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hey Brad,

Here I am!   How did I get here so late on this one?  My computer was in the hospital.  Probably a good thing ... judging from the controversy here.


This is just another example to me of taking all the controversy surrounding God, and Jesus Christ, and making it an excuse not to believe.  Human minds can chop these things into a hundred thousand splintered doctrines and controversies and scandals.  But I know that the Gospel as was delivered to those fishermen in Palestine, the death, burial, and ressurrection of Jesus Christ is true.

Regardless of what is said,  the men who spent much of their lives with Jesus himself, record that he said things like "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the father except by me".  Should I trust men who live centuries later, or the men who were right there with him ... and who had nothing to gain by proclaiming that Jesus had risen from the grave?  


When he was crucified, those men were afraid, disillusioned, depressed, and heart-weary.  Would a man who denied Christ in front of a young girl during his arrest, turn around and waylay Roman guards in order to steal the body so he could save face and preach the "good news" of another dead religious icon?  I don't see it.  If the Romans had the body, all they had to do was show it publically, and Christianity would have disappeared off of the face of the Earth.  


As mere ethical religion, Christianity has nothing to offer much more than what's already around.  There are historical facts to back it up.  Can you doubt the veracity of the records, of scripture, of the character of the men who proclaimed these things?  Of course you can.  There is always freedom to disbelieve.  If God made the truth so evident that we could not deny it if we wished, that would not be faith, but forced.  


So what can I say.  I believe it.  And far from it being just the word of men of long ago, Christ himself has confirmed it in my heart.  Once you meet him and know that you know, nothing can take it from you.  It's hard to argue with deity in person, especially when the scars in his hands and side tell of his eternal love for us.  My prayer is that many of you also would come to believe the good news.  Because this I know,  life is hopeless without him.  No philosophy, worldview, motive, sources of happiness and wellbeing,  or anything that humanity has, has anything without him.  


We all are under the sentence of death, because of a fallen world, and because of our sin.  The valley of the shadow of death we are walking now, not just when we get old.  We are born dying in a sense.  In the face of death, only Christ has the answer.  The scriptures say he has the keys to hell and death.  He overcame that we might overcome in him.  Without whatever he has, we are lost and eternally so.  We are like branches broken off from the tree, able to boast of a few green leaves and maybe a little fruit, but time is moving.  One life destined to face the Judge of all,  no giving of multiple lifetimes to work out the cosmic Karma, just one Savior given to take care of all of our sin and griefs forever.  


If you haven't prayed to Christ and asked him, I would encourage you to.  Also, don't be satisfied with others conception of scriptures in the Bible.  Read it for yourself.  It's WORTH the time.  Start with the gospel of John and judge for yourself if this teaching is of God or of man.  Paraphrases aren't enough.  Sometimes a long look may change things.  What if it were true?
Stephen ...


(phew ... thanks guys for enduring that one)    

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (08-01-2002 06:15 PM).]

Denise
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37 posted 08-01-2002 07:56 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Excellent, Stephen. My heart longs for everyone to come to know His wonderful salvation.

A wise man (you know who you are!) recently told me that "a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." (thank you, wise man!)

All that we can do is present the truth, encourage others to check it out for themselves and leave the rest to God. Those who are truly seeking Him and His truth will find it. He can even work in the hearts of those exhibiting positive disbelief, those who embroil themselves in controversy and pointless wrangling, while at the same time  avoiding the central issue, the issue of utmost importance, Christ...who He claimed to be and what He claimed to provide for us. He is a God of miracles.

I will only make a couple of comments to your responses that I feel are of significance as I have no desire to engage in pointless controversy, Opeth.

First, Christ is the believer's Passover. We don't celebrate what was a forshadowing of Christ, we celebrate Christ, and not only on the day of His birth and resurrection, but everyday as well.

Second, Christians do not celebrate a holiday of pagan origin. They celebrate the resurrection of Christ. That the name of the day of celebration may have had pagan influences is an entirely different matter.

Third, Truth is truth. It is objective. My believing something doesn't make it true. If something is true, it is true whether I believe it or not. My not believing something does not make a truth untrue. My prayer is that many will discover and embrace His Truth as their very own.

Love,
Denise

MidnightSon
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between the gutter & the stars


38 posted 08-16-2002 06:38 AM       View Profile for MidnightSon   Email MidnightSon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MidnightSon

agree to disagree....
or rather, agree to religious ecumenism.
perhaps we all see different facets of the same diamond?
The Napkin Writer
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since 06-28-2002
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39 posted 08-16-2002 06:11 PM       View Profile for The Napkin Writer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for The Napkin Writer

My only problem with the whole religion thing is that man stands at the gates of religion.  Jesus speaks of seven churches in Revelation. Be careful how you choose, and why!

2:1    The Loveless Church
2:8    The Persecuted Church
2:12  The Compromising Church
2:18  The Corrupt Church
3:1    The Dead Church
3:7    The Faithful Church
3:14  The Lukewarm Church

People want miracles in order to believe the nose on their face.  Some want to wake up to having their wishing fulfilled, and then they’ll believe.   And then there are those whom would never believe, not even in the end, before the casting of lakes.  

The best interpreter of the Bible I ever found was in my own heart.  Nothing, no one has ever said to me over the years has had more significance than my reading a single passage in the bible, and finding that it is already in me, waiting, for my heart to know what was placed in each passage just for me to find when the time was right.  I can just open the book, and my heart burst.  But it is more than that, it’s what my life has been, to what it is becoming, that holds the greatest amount of significant.  I no longer need to be convinced; I’m my own witness to what the love of Christ can do to a man.

God Bless

[This message has been edited by The Napkin Writer (08-16-2002 06:14 PM).]

Toad
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40 posted 08-16-2002 08:33 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad

I was about to write concerning my own beliefs (or disbelief’s) when I recalled the words of an American whose life and works I’ve been reading about recently.


"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

Thomas Paine
From The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine,(Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

I doubt that I could have presented my opinion or belief in a clearer manner, which leads very nicely back to the original thread which seems to have been detoured onto the roundabout of religious debate.
quote:
I recently posted a reply to a piece written. In my response, I made a reference to the 144,000, who are spoken of in the Book of Revelations. A person responding to my response, (and not the poetry), gave the impression that they had no ideal what, or who, the 144,000 was, so I posted a scripture from the bible. And sure enough, they returned to post a reply to my second reply, but this time, it was a scholarly answer. But how could that be, from a person, which earlier, had no ideal of the 144,000?

Perhaps the person in question took the time to investigate the subject he/she knew nothing about, either by using the Internet or library, and then came back with a post that was ‘scholarly” in nature. Quite frankly I don’t see anything wrong in what this person did, unless you are suggesting that he/she plagiarised an existing text or used material verbatim. Using another persons text or quote which explains clearly or more succinctly your own views is acceptable in certain circumstances as long as the author is given credit (as above).
quote:
Maybe I was harsh in next reply, instructing the responder to “save it” but was I wrong?

In my opinion, yes you were harsh and yes you were wrong, telling someone to “save it” who has taken time to reply and show at least some interest in the topic seems to me to be less than respectful.

As the original post in question has been deleted my opinion can only be based largely on supposition, which isn’t the sturdiest foundation on which to build but on the information supplied is the best I can manage. Please feel free to disregard it if you feel I have misinterpreted the information supplied.

Thank you for the chance to read and reply.
MidnightSon
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between the gutter & the stars


41 posted 08-17-2002 07:39 AM       View Profile for MidnightSon   Email MidnightSon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MidnightSon

fair enough. my only prob with christanity (i only point it out by name because of i have experienec with that faith and i don't wanna step on any toes i don't have to... ) and a few other religions is having the concept of being helpless without "god".
no one has faith in themselves anymore and everyone seems to be waiting to be saved...

it's our struggle for identity that leaves us all unknown

Toerag
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Ala bam a


42 posted 08-19-2002 07:23 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Yo Rebel...yep there's a tooth fairy...and he's a prick too....When I was a kid I used to save all my money for a rainy day...I'd keep it under my pillow...I woke up one morning and all my money was gone and there was a tooth there!....
Toerag
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Ala bam a


43 posted 08-19-2002 08:18 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

MULL EPISCOPAL CHOICE
    (MARK 1)

God is love.
God is thought.
God is God.
God is paught.
God is faith.
God is you.
God is all.
God is blue.
None of Thee Above?
The Napkin Writer
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since 06-28-2002
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44 posted 08-19-2002 09:37 AM       View Profile for The Napkin Writer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for The Napkin Writer

Yes, that issue took on a life of its own and evolved into this!

But any issue, including those were disccusing on the death penalty, a judge, jury or critic, should have all the imformation, unless those conclusions become one-sided.

I admitted to being wrong for my hurshness, should I what now, hang myself from the nearest tree?  I said I'm sorry to the one person that it should have counted for, whether that person forgives me is up "that" person.
Toad
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45 posted 08-19-2002 10:06 AM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


Napkin Writer

I’m presuming this was in reply to my earlier post:
quote:
Yes, that issue took on a life of its own and evolved into this!

But any issue, including those were disccusing on the death penalty, a judge, jury or critic, should have all the imformation, unless those conclusions become one-sided.

I admitted to being wrong for my hurshness, should I what now, hang myself from the nearest tree? I said I'm sorry to the one person that it should have counted for, whether that person forgives me is up "that" person.

Having all the information isn’t always possible, sometimes you have to form an opinion on what little you have or have been given. Normally I believe it’s best to keep them to yourself in such cases but when asked in an open post, as in this case, I see no reason to give anything but an honest opinion.

As to hanging yourself from the nearest tree, I wouldn’t recommend it, but then again I’m neither your judge nor your keeper, that decision rests entirely with yourself, it would seem however to be overly excessive in the circumstances.

Thank you for the chance to read and reply
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


46 posted 08-21-2002 07:22 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I'm very late jumping into this thread, and I certainly understand the indignation ol' Napkin is feeling regarding the other's post.

I do have to agree with Ron's post when he mentioned that we often have little difficulty agreeing on what is error, but have great difficulty agreeing on what is truth.  The statement seems very simple, but actually very complex.  

I agree ... we often find little difficulty in agreeing on what is erroneous.  But I would qualify that by saying that we often reach our conclusions of what is error from different directions, some valid and some invalid, but, invariably, our conclusions are shaped by our biases.

Regarding "truth", I will have to reiterate the old Pontius Pilate cop out, "What is truth?"  This thread quickly degerated into a mediocre theological thread and I think the word "truth" was thrown around rather carelessly.  In my opinion, anyone who assumes "truth" in their understanding of Christian eschatology is committing a serious error (e.g., the prevailing Evangelical view today of Christian eschatology - pre-tribulationism and pre-milleniumism - was denounced by the Reformers as error ... I happen to agree with the Reformers ... for now).

This takes me back to my highschool "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" days when the answer to the universal question what know, but nobody could agree on what, in fact, the question was.

So, essentially, what I am offering is some advice to those who posted apologies to Christian truth: avoid obscure texts when defending your faith and, rather than resorting to the pop-Christian tendency toward "Christian existentialism", root your argument in evidentially supportable fact.  Granted, because the Bible was written in history, most of those supportable "facts" are ascertained inductively ... the deductive arguments are far more complex and, often, abstract.

As far as the original post is concerned, the replier's comments will mean nothing to you in ten years, so why fret?  As this thread illustrates, as human beings, our thoughts and opinions are bound to rub somebody the wrong way at one time or another, but if the perceived sleight is ultimately inconsequential, I would simply respond in the immortal words of Alfred E. Newman: "What, me worry?"

Enjoyed the thread.

El Jimbo

[This message has been edited by jbouder (08-21-2002 07:25 AM).]

brian madden
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ireland


47 posted 08-21-2002 05:29 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed.

Adolf Hitler
=====================

While I am not saying that the bible is lies, and the speaker of this quote is hardly the most reputable
speaker, the  point is that everything has to be taken with a grain of truth. Why is the Christian Bible seen as the truth, what of Orthodox or protestant. As an Irish person (southern so I was not directly affected by the troubles) I am well aware of how religion leads to bloodshed. Before the Christian God
was recognised there were other gods. We can’t possibly resolve this debate and it appear in some other shape or form here or somewhere else. Until then I suggest that we all try to live our lives to its full, be happy and spread that happiness to others. Maybe that is where we will find God.  

The sum of the angles of that rectangle is too monstrous to contemplate!

jbouder
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since 09-18-99
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


48 posted 08-22-2002 07:17 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brian:

quote:
Why is the Christian Bible seen as the truth, what of Orthodox or protestant.


Some few Christians might answer you by stating that they believe the Bible is God's written revelation of Himself in time and space, and that this revelation of Himself is verifiable by applying well established rules of legal-historical inquiry.  What about the Orthodox or Protestant?  What about them?  I do not see how identifying differences in biblical interpretation and religious practice cast doubt on verifiable fact.  This, I would argue, is part of being human.  For example, it is not uncommon for US Supreme Court Justices to reach different (and often contrasting) opinions on undisputed facts and somewhat straightforward law.  Does this mean that the facts and law are unclear?  Not necessarily.  It simply means that Supreme Court Justices bring something to the table that is not ascertainable in the facts and law: their own humanity (together with their philosophical biases).  I think the point you make here is very weak.

quote:
As an Irish person (southern so I was not directly affected by the troubles) I am well aware of how religion leads to bloodshed. Before the Christian God
was recognised there were other gods.


This is what I would call a post hoc ergo procter hoc fallacy.  Violence and bloodshed are part of human history nomatter where you look.  The Assyrians were perhaps the most violent early human culture and they were deeply religious.  Is it safe to say that their religion shaped their brutality, or is it possible that their brutality shaped their religious practice?  Many cultures seek domination of those they see as competitors.  Religion is often the vehicle used to convey the will to power to the masses.  Are you then suggesting that Islam is responsible for the September 11th attacks?  Most would dismiss such a claim as bull flatulence ... except maybe a few who believe their leaders' pseudo-pious rhetoric and are willing to fly jumbo jets into buildings.

quote:
We can’t possibly resolve this debate and it appear in some other shape or form here or somewhere else.


I agree to some extent.  If Christians (or any other religous practicioner for that matter) ground their religious apology on "You ask me How I know He lives, He lives within my heart", then absolutely not ground will be made in the debate.  In such a case, religion is no more verifiable to you or to me than a bad case of heartburn.  This change will only occur if thinking about religious faith supplants our pop-culture tendency to avoid thinking in favor of remaining in a state of irrational, pseudo-spiritial bliss.

quote:
Until then I suggest that we all try to live our lives to its full, be happy and spread that happiness to others. Maybe that is where we will find God.


I don't see where this gets us anywhere.  Humanism is a philosphical failure and amounts to little more than sophistry.  What I would prefer to see is a free-flow of ideas in the marketplace at the same time we resist our barbarian urges to crush those who disagree with us while honestly consider the possibilities brought to us by sound argumentation.  

Endeavoring to find God in happiness alone is a shallow pipe-dream.  Epicurean happiness is just as aversive to me as Christian existentialism.  In neither place is there room for reason.  After all, finding God in the midst of adversity and great trial is what builds religious character and a greater appreciation for those small things that do, from time to time, make us happy.

That's and end to my rant (for now).

Jim
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since 06-16-2002
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49 posted 08-22-2002 09:28 AM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


Jim

Just a couple of points.
quote:
Are you then suggesting that Islam is responsible for the September 11th attacks?

Yes, inasmuch as without Islam (or Christianity for that matter) the event probably wouldn’t have taken place, of course that’s also true of the invention of jumbo jets and high rise buildings. Islam and its interactivity with Christianity was definitely a factor in the event, dismissing it as irrelevant or “bull flatulence” would be to remove one small piece of a very complicated jigsaw. The removal of which detracts from the overall picture and fails to take into consideration the fact that the perpetrators of the attack along with a large proportion of the Muslim world fervently believed that Islam was a factor if not THE main factor that guided their actions.
quote:
This is what I would call a post hoc ergo procter hoc fallacy. Violence and bloodshed are part of human history nomatter where you look.

Whatever happened after this must have happened because of this may be fallacious, but so is the view that whatever happened after this didn’t happen because of this. While I agree that religion can unjustly be used to explain violent events as if religion was the only factor involved, the Irish conflict being a prime example, that does not mean that religion has not been the primary, and sometimes only, instigator of such events, the Spanish Inquisition springs to mind.


Thank you for the chance to read and reply
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