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Passions in Poetry

Do we become brainwashed by time?

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PoetryIsLife
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0 posted 03-19-2002 12:12 AM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

Allright, allright. This is a shameless double post (I posted it in teen as well). But it was so interesting a question to me... I couldn't resist.

Here is a thought to pose, everyone... me that is. It's for you to chew on, spit out, and then [not] chew on again.

I was pondering today... I do that a lot. And a thought came to me. The more you feel or do or have something, the more you become used to it. After enough times of repitition, you become accustomed to it. Even begin to think you like it. But do you truely like it? Or are you merely accustomed to that which you don't like? And thus, by time, are brainwashed? *scratches chin* Damn interesting to me...

~ Titus

My motto... always changing, always improving, living life in veiw of eternity.

Brad
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1 posted 03-19-2002 12:38 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"But do you truely like it?"

What does that mean?

The first time I saw Forrest Gump I loved it, the second time I couldn't sit through it. Which is truer? If I were trying to describe how I feel about FG, I would have to describe both.  
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2 posted 03-19-2002 03:00 AM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

Interesting point... as we change, our likes change. Such as clothing style throughout the years (our own). Hmmm....

By do you truely like it? I mean... well.... do you? Do you truely like it... or have just convinced yourself you do... perhaps brainwashed yourself, perhaps time has brainwashed you...

As time flows on, the more we are around something, the more we get used to it, and it becomes and unforiegn thing... but what if we liked it before/ By getting used to it.. we seem to think we like it... but do we? Or are we simply used to it.

Also, do we convince ourselves we like it so that we have a 'normal' in our lives? Are we so desperate for something our own, something set, concrete, that we create our own preferences.... and those preferences are merely things we got accustomed to?

LMAO... Sorry, I'm rambling a bit.

~ Titus

My motto... always changing, always improving, living life in veiw of eternity.

Brad
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3 posted 03-19-2002 08:42 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No time to go into detail right now, but when I read "Did you truly like it?" I get the feeling that you're trying to say something that I don't get. When someone says 'truly' or 'really', I generally translate that as 'a lot' or 'very'. I suspect that you mean there's something deep down inside that determines our 'real' likes and dislikes.

I don't think there is.

I did glance at the teen thread, maybe they have a better handle on where you want to go than I do (No time to try to bring them together -- yet. ).

If you like something, like it. If not, don't. If you want to talk about it, please do. If you don't, why not? I have no problems with trying to figure out why I like or dislike something. But I also have no problems with brainwashing (I do think better words are probably conditioned or influenced though).

I'll try to get more in detail later but don't forget that you've been brainwashed to believe your brainwashed.

It's no big deal.

Brad

PS Rambling is not a bad thing, you know. What would I do without it?


PoetryIsLife
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4 posted 03-19-2002 02:42 PM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

"but don't forget that you've been brainwashed to believe your brainwashed."

Actually... the thought just came to me the other day.... and I ran with it.

~ Titus

My motto... always changing, always improving, living life in veiw of eternity.

JP
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5 posted 03-19-2002 04:57 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

It may not be about truely (honestly) liking something or not.  Time has a way of enveloping compromise and apathy into one's value system.  I may do something today that I would never have done in my youth, because I want to?  Not necessarily.  I may or may not want to, or I may or may not really care anymore.  It may be that as the years have shown me a broader world I have come to realize that the like or dislike is irrelevant in the larger scheme.  

More later perhaps...

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

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6 posted 03-19-2002 06:21 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

what my question would be is: would it really matter?

if i've convinced myself that i like something, then i DO like it, and it becomes moot. doesn't really matter how i came about to liking something (ie: Forrest Gump), that i do is ultimately what affects my perceptions when i watch it.

Right?
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7 posted 03-19-2002 11:23 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'm still trying to figure out why it should matter.

JP brought up a good point, if somewhat negatively put, being brainwashed isn't really about liking or disliking something, it's more than that. Being brainwashed is what gives us our identity. It's what we do without thinking about it that makes us who we are.

In order to think at all, you already have to have a background, you already have to be brainwashed. Anything else is instinct masquerading as some sublime emotion.

Can we control this?

Yes, as Ron said in another thread, but it's hard work.

Your likes and dislikes are manifestations of internalizations that are far more stable (but not completely stable), for more determining, than simply acclimation.

Time doesn't brainwash you. In order to recognize time, you already have to be brainwashed.

Hmmmm, is that too abstract?

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8 posted 03-20-2002 02:37 AM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

" Time doesn't brainwash you. In order to recognize time, you already have to be brainwashed. "

By this, what do you mean? What brainwashing do you mean? Simply the teaching we are giving until we can make up our own minds, until we are old enough to recognize right from wrong, until we mature?

~ Titus

My motto... always changing, always improving, living life in veiw of eternity.

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9 posted 03-20-2002 02:39 AM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

"what my question would be is: would it really matter?"

I would like to know that what I like, I treuly like. By that I mean, I grew to like it on my own. That I wasn't brainwashed by time. If I like something, I want to LIKE it. Not merely belive I do, but truely only accept it, and am used to it.

~ Titus  


My motto... always changing, always improving, living life in veiw of eternity.

[This message has been edited by PoetryIsLife (03-20-2002 02:41 AM).]

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10 posted 03-20-2002 04:07 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

that's my point titus - it doesn't matter how you achieve that state, if the result is that you like something, then you like it because you truly do: two paths leading up to the same house takes you to the same place - the house is still there no matter which path you walk.
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11 posted 03-20-2002 04:25 AM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

But what if my path was changed, and I ended up somewhere where I never wanted to be... and merely think I did because my feet didn't noticed the path change?

This is fun.

~ Titus

My motto... always changing, always improving, living life in veiw of eternity.

Brad
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12 posted 03-20-2002 08:36 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Simply the teaching? You learned how to speak, you learned how to think. I'm tempted to say English but your first language is what really matters.

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13 posted 03-21-2002 01:13 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

i still don't see a practical difference between "thinking" you like something and "really" liking something. in my mind they equate the same thing - in this, perception does equal reality. if you think it's blue, then for all practical purposes, to you, it's blue. (and blue is a really good color anyway)
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14 posted 03-21-2002 03:03 PM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

I love blue too!

To me, it's just that I want to KNOW in my heart I like something, and that it wasn't just mental brainwashing that led me to believe I liked it. Understand?

~ Titus

"My body is merely the canvas of my soul."
         ~ The Night Owl

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15 posted 03-21-2002 03:59 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yeah, you can blame Plato for that one: the distinction between knowledge and belief(opinion).

The problem of course is that you can apply it to itself: How do you know what is in your heart is true?

And that turns into an infinite regression: How do you know how do you know what is in your heart is true?

And so on and on and on . . . .

True, I doubt a dog asks these questions but the last time I checked we still see Pavlov's dog as the quintissential example of conditioning (brainwashing), not of some higher level of certainty.

But it's precisely this level of uncertainty (the result of a certain conditioning) that gives you a certain freedom, isn't it?

If you don't like that you like something, you can attempt to stop liking it.  

To me, all of this revolves around the use of language and since you brought up blue I'll share an anecdote:

When living in Japan, my Japanese girlfriend and I were waiting for the traffic signal to change. I drifted off for a moment (I do that), and suddenly she said, "C'mon, it's blue, let's go."

I said, "It's not blue, it's green."

"It's blue."

"It's green."

And we didn't cross the street.

The point is that certainty is a game that's not always best played in a busy intersection.

Brad
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16 posted 03-22-2002 09:46 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

I believe that it is important for us to realize that our own physical and metaphical selves know the difference between honestly liking something and somehow being led to believe we like it (or accept it - isn't part of what we are discussing the difference between acquiesence and true acceptance?).

Our ego, super ego, and id will determine if we honestly like who or what we are or who or what we are doing, etc.  and in turn will pass that knowledge on to our physical self.  I feel that the majority of disease (hence the word dis-ease) is a result of our subconscious telling us that all is not right in our world (our internal, emotional, mental, spiritual world).

How can we know if we honestly like something?  Our bodies will eventually tell us, our first thoughts upon waking, or our scattering thoughts before sleeping, will tell us.  Our need for external stimulation or sedation, our dependency on people, things, or chemicals, for mood regulation - these things are tell-tale indicators of our honesty in liking or not liking.  Logic, apathy, determined acceptance, comfort with discomfort, none of these will let us honestly like anything, but merely make them more tolerable.

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Brad
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17 posted 03-23-2002 08:30 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

'The gods speak to us in signs'

I'm not quite sure what to make of this comment, JP.  

"I believe that it is important for us to realize that our own physical and metaphical selves know the difference between honestly liking something and somehow being led to believe we like it (or accept it - isn't part of what we are discussing the difference between acquiesence and true acceptance?)."

--I don't see a problem between acquiesence and true acceptance. If by this you want to distinguish between wanting to like something and what you actually do, I agree. You can want to like something or someone but if you find yourself bored or getting angry, if you're unhappy, if you don't get a kick out of it, that certainly may be a good reason to believe your fooling yourself. While that's certainly possible, I see no reason to privilege this all the time. It may also be the unconscious that needs some conditioning because you keep finding yourself listening and doing things that get you into trouble (the woman who goes out with the 'bad boy' for example).

"Our ego, super ego, and id will determine if we honestly like who or what we are or who or what we are doing, etc.  and in turn will pass that knowledge on to our physical self.  I feel that the majority of disease (hence the word dis-ease) is a result of our subconscious telling us that all is not right in our world (our internal, emotional, mental, spiritual world)."

--Aren't you just replacing 'the gods' with Freudian psychology here? Why privilege the unconscious except to avoid the responsibility of control and embrace the transcendental secret? I may be wrong but I always thought Frued's work and psychology in general is the attempt to bring a certain order your life through knowledge. If you have a problem, psychology helps you to understand it and fix it, it shouldn't make the decisions for you.    

"How can we know if we honestly like something?  Our bodies will eventually tell us, our first thoughts upon waking, or our scattering thoughts before sleeping, will tell us."

--Given what I've said above, why do you believe that we even need to know if we honestly like something? It strikes me as odd that people find the time where we have the least control over ourselves as the place where we find our 'true' selves.

--It also happens to be where we are the most susceptible to suggestion.

--I'm not saying we shouldn't listen or read the signs, but I think we should do so for quite different reasons.

--I still believe it's us that invests those signs with meaning, not the signs that invest us with meaning.
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18 posted 03-23-2002 03:55 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Unless one has the ability to open his or her mind to other worldviews, that person will, over time, become brainwashed due to his or her's own closed-mindedness.

"Let us save them from themselves."
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