»
Discussion
»
Philosophy 101
»
What exactly is Christianity?
| Philosophy 101 |
|
What exactly is Christianity? |
|
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648
|
I have started this tread to address some issues raised in Allan's thread. There seems to be so much confusion over issues of Christianity that I feel the need to try to clear the air a bit. Predestination in the Bible, to my understanding, is not talking about predestination in the sense of a person's ultimate destination. It is stating that a believer has been predestined (after receiving, through faith, the free gift of God's salvation made possible through the sacrifice of Christ) to be conformed to the very image of Christ, imperfectly, or incompletely, if you will, in the here and now, and perfectly or completely in the hereafter. Also, how can a person make a rational decision about Christianity, for or against, if they don't even know what it is? I've seen some comments that lead me to believe that the knowledge to make any kind of an informed decision is lacking . Sadly, even the majority of "Christendom" doesn't even seem to have a clue anymore. Here is an excellent link for anyone interested in investigating what salvation really is. It's a dangerous thing to just go by what supposed christians say it is and then dismiss it out of hand without checking into what it really is all about and how it can be secured. http://gracebeliever.com/articles/articles/salvation.htm And this link here for other related topics that could prove useful for study. http://gracebeliever.com/ I also have several great links on my homepage (around the middle of the page) that are extremely informative, for anyone interested. (No, you don't have to read my poetry!) http://artisticwords.homestead.com/home.html My heart just breaks when I see such gross misunderstanding of Christianity and the resultant misrepresentation of it, and I feel compelled to try to clarify the issues. And compelled out of love, not out of duty or obligation, etc. I'm not interested in debating doctrines or engaging in pointless arguments,(but welcome any honest discussion, of course). I am only interested in challenging each one of you to study out the issues yourselves and not to assume something or dismiss something on the basis of someone else's presentation, including my own. And remember, your pastor could have it all wrong too! "He who has been forgiven much, loves much". |
||
| © Copyright 2002 Denise - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
According to the Scholars and leaders of the Protestant churches: Baptists, Pentacostals, Lutherans, etc... Christianiy is the ONLY way in which one may be saved and therefore escape the fiery pits of hell in an eternal damnation. If you don't repent for your sins, accept Christ as your saviour, become baptised, receive the Holy Spirit (this one is the key, for without the Holy Spirit, one cannot be born again, and one must be born again in order to be saved.) If you state that you are a christian and do not believe in what I wrote above, then your church, your type of christianity is not of the mainstream and would be branded as heretical. Other doctrines and beliefs of mainstream christianity (not inclusive, but the major beliefs)... 1. Immortal soul 2. forever suffering in a hell fire. 3. Sunday is the sabbath 4. The trinity This is christianity, not according to me, but according to the leaders of christianity - Billy Graham, Dr. Kennedy, etc...and all those denomintations that I have mentioned. [This message has been edited by Opeth (02-28-2002 10:02 AM).] |
||
|
Professor Gloom Member Elite
since 2000-07-23
Posts 3082of Depression |
I must take serious exception to Opeth’s statement, This may be your perception, but it is not correct for all. Perhaps some “Christians” believe in the Pit of Dante’, but not all by far are locked into such narrow views. What you say is similar to stating all Islamic believer are on a Jihad. Opeth, you need to open your eyes and mind. Sunday morning TV is not all the Christians, And how do you categorize Mormons (Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints)? Denominations are not Christianity. What of the Seventh Day Adventist, they worship on Saturday ~ so are they not Christian? Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ, Not the Middle Age Churches that evolved. Gloom |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"This may be your perception, but it is not correct for all." - Did you not read in my post that it is not my perception, but what is taught by "mainstream" christianity. With that being said, I would ask each christian what denomination do they belong to? If the answer was any of the recognized protestant denominations (baptist, lutheran, episcopalian, etc) then that is what their own doctrines state, not me. If you live in the bible belt, those christians would straighten you out...for sure. "Perhaps some “Christians” believe in the Pit of Dante’, but not all by far are locked into such narrow views." - Ah, yes...Dante's Divine Comedy, the catalyst for what now mainstream (and other branches of) christianity believe - The forever suffering in a eternal hellfire, never taught ever, not even in the bible, however, misquotes and misinterps/errors in translations/addings to, etc...the scaring of the masses prevails. "What you say is similar to stating all Islamic believer are on a Jihad." - I disagree because the Jihad are the minority where mainstream christian teachings are the majority. "Opeth, you need to open your eyes and mind." - My mind and eyes are so far open - that is why I know that christianity is no different than any other religion. "Sunday morning TV is not all the Christians," - That, I know. Why is that even brought up here? I never said it was. "Mainstream" repeat, "mainstream." "And how do you categorize Mormons (Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints)?" - Why do personalize what I say? I did not say "I" categorize...again, I am speaking of mainstream (say it again, mainstream) christianity. Should I repeat those denominations, you know the ones that ARE the majority of christianity in this country? Mainstream christianity labels the Morman faith as a cult. I know this, for I studied with the Mormans for a while. "Denominations are not Christianity." - Then why are there denominations? Why don't you christians all join together and believe and worship the same way? Let me see...from the bible there are numerous examples of Paul telling each church not to divide, to all believe the same way. He even went as far at to tell the church in Corinth, I believe, that there were already members amongst them that were of the devil and intended to deceit and divide them into "splinters." Is not that what has become of christianity? "What of the Seventh Day Adventist, they worship on Saturday so are they not Christian?" - A good friend of mine was a 7-day adventist, we would study together...and you know something...they are correct with regards to the bible and its teachings in that the Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday. So why do other denominations celebrate on Sunday? Mainstream christianity call the 7 dayers a cult too. "Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ," Okay, so didn't christ teach many things...like to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) holy? |
||
|
Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Not trying to be critical here, but one ought to be careful about what they know. I have read the various threads on religous issues and do have to wonder about the animus I detect from some quarters. "Those Christians", and "you Christians" do happen to take in a significant portion of the population of not only the United States, but the world, and like all others, are attempting to make sense and gain meaning of this concept of life. They are as varied as any other religous, social, cultural, or national group. I do come from the bible belt. I am nearly fifty years of age and honestly do not recall one time in my life that anyone has tried to impose their Christian beliefs upon me or even inquired as to my religous beliefs. From a personal observational standpoint, those who complain most about Christians trying to impose their beliefs upon them are those who openly attack or question Christianity's validity. I have no desire to be preached to, no more than I have a desire to hear harangues from those who have some perceived problem with Christianity. On a whole, I come in contact with the latter far more than the former. I suspect that a person is adult enough to disregard information they do not desire to know. I do not spend a great deal of time in the Spiritual Forum. I do not spend a great deal of time in the Adult Forum. If either is your cup of tea, then go for it. Mankind goes through stages from religion to utipian concepts. We seek answers in our own ways. If I have violated the guidelines for these discussions, I apologize, but fail to see that attack, counter-attack is productive or assists anyone in arriving at the truth. [This message has been edited by Tim (02-28-2002 01:47 PM).] |
||
|
Professor Gloom Member Elite
since 2000-07-23
Posts 3082of Depression |
What exactly is Christianity? That was the leading question. To Opeth: “This is christianity, not according to me, but according to the leaders of christianity - Billy Graham, Dr. Kennedy, etc...and all those denomintations that I have mentioned.” Opeth This is the statement that brought the Sunday Morning TV comment. “- My mind and eyes are so far open - that is why I know that christianity is no different than any other religion.” Opeth I agree, there are similarities of all religions on the base level, so why do you attack this one so harshly? No, don’t answer, this is a rhetorical question It is obvious by your comment “:Mainstream christianity labels the Morman faith as a cult. I know this, for I studied with the Mormans for a while.” Opeth That you do not understand, At least you could spell the name correctly “Mormon” It’s Christianity capitalized (named after Christ a proper name). Most Christians do not think of the Mormons as a cult, care to bring forth any quotes that suggest that any major religion says that? Any that would call the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints a cult would be a minority, and you do a disservice to the many people that you slander by suggesting that it is widespread belief. The answer to the prime question is what I stated "Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ," How people vary in methods are no different that the variation in Islam or Hindu or the beliefs of Zen. Respond if you care to, I will not respond to any further rants from you on this subject, I suggest you stick to basic poetry where your prejudices don’t show. Gloom |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
"If you state that you are a christian and do not believe in what I wrote above, then your church, your type of christianity is not of the mainstream and would be branded as heretical." My beliefs are based on my understanding of the teachings found in Scripture and are not in complete accord with all that you have listed above. I'm sure I would be labeled a heretic by some. That doesn't bother me. I hold the same beliefs as did the Apostles Paul, Peter, John, James, etc. as well as Martin Luther and John Calvin and others of the Reformation who brought to light the age-old truths that had been buried for thousands of years. The main tenant is the offer of salvation to sinful man as a gift (ie, without cost to the recipient) by God's grace through faith in the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, completely independent of man's works. It is a knowing, a trusting, that Christ's sacrifice was and is and always will be my complete sufficiency and my only means of entering heaven. There is nothing in me or of me that could attain this. I can't mix even a little bit of me into the equation. It's all of Him. Whatever differences denominations may have, this is the doctrine of utmost importance and the one by which they stand or fall, in my view. Issues of obedience, good works, repentence, commitment, etc., are issues for the believer, after salvation, and in no way condition salvation, before or after. God is far more gracious, I believe, than most men dare give Him credit for. "Mainstream" does not equal "correct". The one does not necessarily follow the other. And as I said before, I did not start this thread to engage in futile wrangling over different doctrines. My heart is just burdened that Christianity gets a bad rap and is misrepresented and therefore turns people off and sends them running away...and they never even really heard God's message at all. They heard a mere man's thoughts on how man thinks salvation should be obtained. They heard a "religion". All religions tell man what man must achieve in order to be right with God. Christianity is not a religion, in that sense, for it is the only belief system that tells man that God has done all that is necessary and to rest in that glorious knowledge. I just wanted to try to clear things up a bit in an effort to bring hope to those who may be searching for it. Thank you all for your contributions. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm with Tim, I fail to see this going anywhere. Denise gave a concise view of the essence of Chrisitanity and it's of course legitimate to disagree but shouldn't we at least start with the things she said? Mainstream is a notoriously amorphous term (not without value though), but it seems the arguments here are based on a group of Christians that I criticized in Serenity's Alley thread, they create us v. them worlds (Another question would be is it possible to avoid this?). This is not surprising, but that's not the point: The point is Denise's statement that the acceptance of Christ requires no payment in return. You simply sincerely have to ask for it. Do you believe this? Yes, no, maybe? If so why or why not? She has already pointed out that a number of Christian organizations have missed the point, and I just don't get what arguing their positions as the 'true' Christianity (and then to assume because of that, Christianity is merely another religion) gets us. European history, of course, doesn't really back up her position but doesn't that make the question more interesting? Is this the way Christianity should be seen, not the way it is in this world? --------------------------- For me, it begs a question. If you start from the position, "Something that makes no difference in practice, makes no difference at all" what does Christianity give us in the mundane, material world? This is answered easily by arguing that the mundane, material world isn't important, but that seems pretty hard to square with how we live our lives. I don't know, but questions such as these, I think, are worth asking and discussing knowing full well that we're asking the unanswerable. Religion is not a high school math textbook with the answers in the back. Brad |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Thanks, Brad, for clarifying the issue at hand. "Something that makes no difference in practice, makes no difference at all" what does Christianity give us in the mundane, material world? Well, Brad, I guess the best way to answer this is by describing a family situation, wife/husband, parent/child. Suppose a husband was always fearful that if he didn't measure up perfectly to his wife's very demanding expectations, that he was history. Suppose a child lived in dread that if she didn't jump through all the right hoops to please her parents that they would disown her? Now suppose that you have a couple who are comfortable and relaxed with each other, that they can truly be who they are without fear of rejection. Suppose you have a child who knows without a doubt that no matter how badly she screws up, her parents will always be her parents and will always stand by her. Which of these situations do you suppose would foster the most amount of good will and love in the family that subsequently radiates outward toward society as a whole? The only thing that works, the only thing that is real, the only thing that begets love and loyalty from the heart is unconditional love and acceptance. Love can't be conditional, otherwise it is not real love. I see God's entire plan of redemption as His love letter to us, if you will. He gave us the Law simply to show us that we couldn't do it. He needed for us to see that we couldn't do it, that we were helpless, hopeless sinners, so that we would see our need of and accept His gracious offer of salvation. He paid the penalty, took what we deserved, and freely gave us life in Christ by simply believing Him for it, by simply taking Him at His word. You don't even have to ask for it. It's yours when you believe God for it, just as Abraham did. I think the realization of His great love, the gratefulness that is generated in the human heart because of it, brings a far greater chance of "right living" and benefit to society than does living under the Law in dread and fear. He wants our love and the only way to get that is to offer us unconditional love. Hey, it works for me!!  |
||
|
Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
the answers were in the back? da** it all-- think of the wasted time....heh JThere is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar. |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
i'd just like to say that the whole notion of anyone being "branded a heretic" for disagreeing with some point of doctrine, or even of non-christians suffering eternal damnation in a fiery hell for non-believing, bears absolutely no resemblence to anything i've ever heard in church. i grew up as a presbyterian -- hard to get more "mainstream" than that -- and i attended sunday school and went to church fairly regularly, and the idea that my church thought anyone a "heretic" or an "infidel" is just laughable. nothing could be further from the truth. i certainly have never thought anything like that, and not because i grew to disagree with what i was taught... it was never taught in the first place. in fact, i'm not even sure i can identify a presbyterian point of "doctrine", it being so unemphasized in the church. true, we go to church on sundays, not saturdays, and consider sunday to be the sabbath, i suppose, but if seventh day adventists favor saturdays, who cares? roman catholics go to confession, they have shrines to the virgin mary and do a heck of a lot of other things presbyterians don't... who cares? presbyterians do not believe that one must be "born again" to be accepted into heaven, not in the same sense that certain evangelical faiths do... but again, so what? no one ever taught me anything other than that we are all god's children. i don't think presbyterians are anything special or unsual in this regard, either; i've never known or met any roman catholic, lutheran, methodist, baptist, etc., who seriously thought i was heretic or was going to hell because i wasn't a member of their denomination. being a "christian", to me, is simply believing that jesus of nazareth lived, that he was the son of god, that he was crucified, was dead and buried, rose from the dead to ascend into heaven, and that his death and resurrection was in atonement for the sins of mankind. there are a myriad of denominations with a myriad of differences on certain other points, yes, but certainly the mainstream attitude toward doctrinal differences in modern times is something between a yawn and a mild "how about that" curiosity. i know this was not always the case in the long and often troubled history of christianity, and may in fact not be entirely universal among its practitioners today, but the idea of heresy is just so far out of the norm today that the notion indeed seems somewhat quaint. undoutedly, someone will be able to cite an example of some christian somewhere squawking about heresy and damning nonbelievers to hell. i don't know of any religion in the world that doesn't incorporate a wide spectrum of beliefs, from the loosey-gooseys to the conservative zealots. but i think the various responses from the different christian denominations to the september 11 attacks are instructive here. no leader or spokesperson for any leading denomination has said anything denigrating islam as a religion, or suggested that its followers are bound for hell or any such place; in fact, like our secular leaders, they've been careful to emphasize that condemnations of the terrorists are NOT in any way condemnations of islam itself. hardly the behavior of people who seriously think muslims are damned because they are not believers. anyway, i just thought i'd throw that in here. thanks for listening, lol. jenni [This message has been edited by jenni (03-01-2002 04:18 AM).] |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
One small comment by Opeth above that I think was missed or at least not mentioned again. quote: Actually, I did read that and I think the Prof did too. But I would claim that is also only your perception of what is taught by "mainstream" Christianity. Pete |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
My perception? Okay...let me see...When I went to a baptist church in Memphis TN, the preacher taught the rules of the Baptist faith, which included: Sunday as the sabbath, immortal soul, eternal hellfire, the MormOn faith is a cult, etc. Later, I studies with the Pentacostals and that faith basically agreed with the Baptists in all of the previous doctrines above. Both of these "mainstream" "bible belt" denominations also repeatedly stressed the fact that one MUST be born again to be saved. The only difference between those 2 denoms was that the Baptists believe that once saved always saved and the Pentacostals believed one could lose their salvation. Not my perception, but what was taught. I have read books by theologians of many of the Protestant faith that concur what I just posted. If you are intetested in finding any of them, go on-line or visit your local library. Now with that being said, I know that there are other Christian faiths that may not adhere to the previously mentioned doctrines. I never said otherwise. Find out for yourselves. Ask your preacher if there is an immortal soul, or if there is an eternal damnation, or if there is a trinity, etc. I believe I was accused of being prejudiced. A personal attack of which I refrained and will refrain from. To call me or anybody prejudiced without ever meeting with a person in person shows a lack of wisdom on the part of the accuser. As for subject matter of this thread, I am not attacking any individual. I am attacking the christian religion for its doctrines. If one can't determine the difference in the two...so be it. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-01-2002 02:29 PM).] |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
*sigh* Opeth, Religion is always a tough subject, one that gets people going faster than a heartbeat in, well, faster than a heartbeat. Amazingly enough, you seem to be arguing implicitly that Denise's point is wrong, that you're admittedly quick description is correct and that, therefore, Christianity is merely another religion (and therefore not worth the time?). Were you attacked? As far as I can tell, someone said you should have a more open mind (just get used to that one) and stick to poety where your prejudices don't show (but of course your prejudices show in poetry as do mine). They certainly aren't praise, but a certain freedom is necessary if we're going to allow this discussion to move in interesting directions . So far, you have yet to address the main topic, Denise's point about the gift. Why not? So far, your argument is that what you've been taught is mainstream but most who have posted contend that it is not. Few, I think, can refute that what you've said isn't a part of some Christianity somewhere; the question is whether it is mainstream, the majority, normal, the usual etc. But mainstream, by definition, is a matter of perception. I don't know how you can prove that everybody here is wrong except perhaps statistically (and we all know what that means) and even that would beg the question whether people see hell fire as literal or metaphorical. If you want, we can also say that Denise's essence is a matter of perception (this is undeniable), but she also believes that this is the correct way to look at it. Apparently, you view your view as the correct way to look at it. What do we do here? We can either keep looking/talking past each other or we can attempt to find a few points of agreement and move from there. What do you, personally, think about Denise's point? Because, however much you attempt an 'objective' -- does anybody really want me to go there again? -- point of view, religion is always personal.thanks for listening, Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (03-01-2002 05:40 PM).] |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
I read the salvation link and have a couple of questions: Which God are we talking about, or are they all the same? If salvation is free does that mean I don’t have to do or give anything to get it? |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
brad-- you wrote that european history does not seem to support the idea of "the offer of salvation to sinful man as a gift (ie, without cost to the recipient) by God's grace through faith in the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, completely independent of man's works" (as denise very nicely expressed it). i think you're wrong about that; the argument of "faith vs. works" -- or justification through the external action of man as against justification through faith alone -- was the very foundation of the protestant reformation, an argument that luther, calvin, tyndale, knox et al. won in the long run. the whole debate is, i believe, basically moot today. i think denise is absolutely right: "Issues of obedience, good works, repentence, commitment, etc., are issues for the believer, after salvation, and in no way condition salvation, before or after." i don't think anyone would seriously argue today that one could buy an indulgence from the pope, say (or from anyone else), or fund the building of a cathedral or hospital, and be saved. this was not always the case, and the re-formation of christian theology on this point was the central purpose of luther, et al. from 1517 onwards. jenni |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I see your point, but I don't know how to reconcile Luther's anti-semitism with Denise's real world example. But fair enough, I suppose you could see European history as a kind of dialectical maturation process of Christianity (in this sense, Liberalism's Christian roots would be more emphasized than I usually assume). Of course, we're not there yet. In a way, I like this approach, it brings up something that I had planned to add in other religious threads but never got around to it. What this means is that we understand the essence of Christianity better than the early Christians did. This may seem counter-intuitive (because we still follow Plato) but in fact there is no contradition. And there are other examples that back it up (We know more about Egypt than the Greeks did, we know more about the Greeks than the Medieval Europeans did, we know more about Biblical times than the Romantics did). It's an interesting point. Brad |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Phaedrus, In response to your questions, I am going to copy and paste from different sources that I feel best express the Christian belief, as they say it better than I can. The Godhead We believe that the Godhead eternally exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that these three are one God, having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections, and worthy of precisely the same homage, confidence, and obedience. (Matt. 28:18-19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 13:14; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 1:4-6) Salvation A person is saved by God's grace (unmerited favor) alone. What Jesus did when He died on the cross was give you a free gift. Yes, Free! (Romans 3:24; 5:15 -17; 6:23; 2 Corinthians 9:15; Ephesians 2:8). A gift that is based on His finished work alone. All that God asks you to do in order to receive this free gift of salvation is to believe it. It is that simple. Who or What is the object of your faith? Is it your own performance and works? Is it a church? Is it a religion? Is it anything other than Jesus Christ? All God asks in order for you to receive eternal life is make Jesus Christ the object of your faith. All God asks is that you believe that Jesus died and resurrected for your sins. God is not asking you to believe in your own works, or in what you do or don't do, or whether you are good or bad, or if you are a member of the right church or religion. God is asking you to simply believe in the finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ! It is that simple! (John 3:16; John 3:36; John 6:47; Acts 16:31). God does not make it hard for us! He has made it so simple that a small child can understand it. Faith is simple - in fact, it is so simple millions miss it! What must you do to be saved? Do you need to give your life to God first? Do you need to make a commitment to God first? Do you need to turn over the controls of your life and submit to God's mastery and Lordship first? Do you need to clean up your life and start keeping God's laws and commandments first? Do you need to start doing good works first? Do you need to pray first? Do you need to confess, repent or overcome a sin first? Do you need to join the right church first? No! No! No! God says, believe! (John 3:16; John 3:36; John 6:47; Acts 16:31). Simply believe, only believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal salvation and you will be saved. The faith does not need to be great. Jesus Christ said that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed we can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 17:20; Luke 13:18-19). But Jesus Christ must be the object of that faith. Faith the size of a mustard seed grain will save you if it is in Christ alone. But even if your faith is the size of Mount Everest it will not save you if it is in your own attempts to earn your way into heaven or in anything other than Christ - alone. The Good News is that Jesus paid the complete price for our eternal salvation (2 Corinthians 8:9; Colossians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-7; 1 Peter 1:18-19). There is nothing left for us to pay. No cost to count. Just a free gift to receive by placing our faith in Jesus Christ and Him alone. God accepts only what Christ has done, not what we do. Jesus' act was the only perfect act of contrition. Jesus alone had the purity of God, for He was Himself divine. Therefore He did for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Now that is good news. You agree with what God says concerning you -that you are a sinner. You realize that you are completely powerless to love God and man the way that God requires for entrance into heaven. You recognize your real, sinful condition. You realize that you are unable to do anything to remove the guilt of your sins. Now all that is left for you to do is believe that Jesus Christ pardoned and removed from His sight all of your past, present and future sins when He willingly died on that Roman cross for you. Believe that it is only because of Him that you are freely receiving this gift of salvation and that there are no other requirements. It is based entirely on His grace and His finished work! And if you simply believe you will be saved and you will receive His gift of eternal life. I hope these help to answer your questions. Of course, the best place to examine these is in the Bible. Jenni, yes, I agree that the Reformation brought to light the long obscured truth of salvation "by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone." I don't see though that today it is a moot point, unfortunately. Christendom on a large scale seems to be slowly sinking backwards toward the theology of the Middle Ages in as much as they mix man's efforts, submission, obedience, etc. with faith. Grace has to remain unmixed or it is no longer grace, not only for salvation but for living the Christian life ("The just shall live by faith"). The mind of man just seems to have a real struggle with that. How can God be so gracious?! Brad, you don't have to struggle to reconcile any of man's shortcomings, failings, or blind spots with my real life example. Sanctification is an ongoing lifelong process as the believer yields his thoughts, opinions, etc. to God. It's something that is never finished in this lifetime and once God has delivered us from one thing, we discover another area that needs to be placed under His light. In my example I asked which life situations did you think had the better chance of fostering good-will and love and producing "right living". There is a reason why God's love has to be unconditional -because we're not perfect and won't be this side of heaven. Also, I don't think that we have a greater understanding of Christianity than did the earliest Christians. They had it right. But it was soon corrupted toward the late 1st Century, early 2nd Century, shortly after the death of the Apostles, as I understand it, and the truths of God's free gift to undeserving sinners through faith in Christ did not reemerge with large scale benefit to mankind until the Reformation, although I am sure there were people in all ages that understood it and believed it. Thanks for your participation, everyone! Jamie, I didn't know the answers were in the back of the book either! Geesh, all that studying for nothing?!  |
||
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Dogma is important, but sometimes clouds the issues... especially when simplicity is needed to prepare the way for greater understanding. Only when these basic tenets are laid (common to all orthodox Christianity), can discussions of great (or not so great) theological weight be held. No need to get into Arminianism Vs. Calvanism, or any other ism until we discuss some basics. These tend to confuse people at the first. And most people could care less about the concept of the "Trinity" until they first give God some serious thought, and actually percieve his voice in their spirit, and understand they need him... not religion, but him. Christianity 101... God created the world with great glory and purpose, yet granted his creation the power of free will. The archetypal heads of humanity (Adam and Eve), were tempted and chose to turn away from God's truth, thus bringing sin into our genes (and spirits). Thus... We have been born into a humanity infected with a terrible cancerous problem... sin. Sin, because of God's judgement, leads to death and separation from God... both individually and corporately. Without some fix, we are in dire straits. But before the world or humanity was ever created, (in the eternal plan of God), he decided to step into time as a man himself and solve the sin problem for all who would believe. Jesus of Nazereth was born of a virgin Mary ...lived a life of doing good, healing the sick, raising the dead, preaching the Kingdom of God... was unjustly put to death by the established religious leaders of that day... to the dismay of his enemies and friends, rose bodily from the dead, appeared to many with great glory, then ascended into Heaven with the promise of his return to restore all things and Judge all who have lived. His discouraged disciples became mighty apostles, and preached the message that "forgiveness of sins are given through his name"... that his death on the cross was a payment for everything we could never pay. While Justice without mercy was set against us... Mercy himself came and took the brunt of the punishment for us at the cross. With him and trusting in him, we are forgiven and we will be privileged to see all things restored to a greater glory that Eden itself, and are brought back into a RELATIONSHIP with the Father. Without him, and not believing him, we will face Justice without mercy, and eternity irreversibly disconnected from God... the fountain-head of order, peace, and goodness... LIFE himself. Regardless of doctrinal semantics, and bickering over reasons why the "mainstream" belief is right or not... the above is a paraphrased statement of a core belief held by Christians from the start, taught by Jesus and his apostles...and it still remains. The question is only will we believe. Stephen. (This paraphrase is supported by a myriad of scripture and testimony of Christians since the first century- Email me for any questions) |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
This is not a shortcoming: "I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated." --Martin Luther I'm not attacking Christianity here, but at some point history and all of its messiness has to enter the conversation. And it's the disease metaphor again. Brad |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Brad... to put it simply Luther was wrong in this matter... VERY wrong. And Many Christians recognize this. Another example of human fallibility in the history of the Church. Stephen. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, There is no denying the messiness found in history in man's practice of Christianity. Luther definitely went way too far, inexcusably so, in calling for the rulers of his land to engage in the burning of synagogues and the driving out of the Jews from the land in response to their rejecting the Gospel of Christ, and according to Luther, their arrogance toward and mistreatment of Gentiles, or perceived mistreatment. (I don't know, I wasn't there...I may be old, but I ain't that old!  ). It seemed to insence Luther that the Jews (according to Luther) were not acting as grateful guests in a land not their own, but instead fancied themselves as the "masters" and the Gentiles as their "servants", borne out by the fact, I suppose, that the majority of the Jews had become business owners employing the Gentiles, and had come to enjoy lives of wealth, comfort and luxury at the expense of the sweat and toil of the Gentiles. That being the case, Luther definitely erred in his response to that situation, grievously.As Christians we are called to live on a higher plane than that. We are called upon to suffer all things, to turn the other cheek, to go the extra mile, to love our enemies and to do good to all men, to not repay evil with evil. This can only be achieved as we abide in Him, rest in Him, submit our every thought, opinion and desire to Him and allow Him to live His very life through us. Of course, it should go without saying that no one does this perfectly and consistently. But man's failings in no way diminish the work of the Cross. Indeed, they can only point to the absolute necessity of it. When we trust in Christ for salvation, God justifies us (positionally) at that moment and at that moment our old sin nature is crucified with Him (the cancer is excised and the heart is circumcised, if you will)and we are made a new creation, and this is all of God's doing and not our own, and we are to believe God on these points and reckon it to be so. But sin still dwells in our physical bodies and that will be so as long as we have these physical bodies. Victory over sin, experientally, in the hear and now, comes as we keep our focus on what He has declared that He has done on our behalf and as we allow ourselves to bask in His unconditional love and grace, thus allowing Him to live His very life through these bodies. And so we can see how we are to even live by faith ("the just shall live by faith"), as we don't hang the Law or a list of rules, even the commands to love, turn the other cheek, do good to all men, etc., before our eyes in an attempt to perform these deeds through our own strength or efforts (flesh) because "in our flesh dwells no good thing", but believe that they will be perfomed by the very strength of Christ who indwells us as we rest in Him and trust Him to do just as He promised to do on our behalf. Sadly, many Christians think that they have to live this life in their own strength. They freely accept God's grace for salvation but then think the rest of the work is up to them. They will not experience the increasingly victorious life until they realize whose responsibility it is to live it. Christ took that responsibility as His own. Do Christians sin, sometimes even grievously, sometimes even intentionally, sometimes out of ignorance? An honest answer is yes. Of course they do and they will not become perfectly sinless in this lifetime. Are they forgiven anyway? The Cross of Christ is the emphatic answer, YES. [This message has been edited by Denise (03-02-2002 03:13 PM).] |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Denise, You said: “We believe that the Godhead eternally exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that these three are one God, having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections, and worthy of precisely the same homage, confidence, and obedience. (Matt. 28:18-19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 13:14; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 1:4-6)” Is this a different God from Allah, Buddha etc. and if so which is superior? You also said: “A person is saved by God's grace (unmerited favor) alone. What Jesus did when He died on the cross was give you a free gift. Yes, Free! (Romans 3:24; 5:15 -17; 6:23; 2 Corinthians 9:15; Ephesians 2:8). A gift that is based on His finished work alone. All that God asks you to do in order to receive this free gift of salvation is to believe it. It is that simple.” How can this gift be “Free” if there are conditions attached, is this not better described as a reward, something you have to earn by fulfilling the attached conditions? |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Phaedrus, Christians believe that He is the one and the only eternal God, the creator and sustainer of the universe and the redeemer of mankind, and He says that besides Him there is none other. He is the "First and the Last, the Alpha, the Omega, the Beginning and the End" (Revelations 22:13). He is the great "I AM" (Exodus 3:14). In Exodus 3:15 He states: "And God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' "This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." In the gospel of John chapter 8 verse 58, we see: Jesus said to them "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am". We do not believe that He is Allah or Buddha. I know that particularly in this day and age, that this is not a politically correct thing to say. But God in not politically correct. He tells it like it is. As pertains to salvation, receiving His gift through faith in what He has already done is not a meritorious work. It can be compared simply and logically to accepting a gift as one would from a friend or loved one, say as on the occasion of one's birthday or some other special occasion. The giver of the gift has bought or made something and offers it to you. All you do is receive it. That in no way can be seen as a "reward"...it is a gift. Faith is just the "hands", so to speak, by which one receives this spiritual gift, just as with human hands one receives a physical gift. Would someone honestly look at receiving a gift from someone as a condition in the sense of earning a reward? Of course not. In fact, God's salvation is so great that He even says that faith, those "hands" by which to receive, even comes to us as a gift as we hear the word of God. It is not something that we work up somehow within ourselves, struggling in some way in order to produce those "hands". In Romans chapter 10 verse 17 we read: And so faith cometh by hearing, hearing the word of God. And In Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 and 9 we read: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, that no one should boast. No other "god" and no religion proclaims nor even pretends to give such glorious gifts to undeserving sinful man. He offers this gift to "Whosoever will". It is freely available to anyone who wants it. God is no respecter of persons, he shows no partiality, in other words. His gift is just that, a gift to sinners, not a reward for the righteous (for none are righteous in His sight in and of themselves). The receiving heart is a humble heart, recognizing its complete and utter inability to earn salvation. It must be received as a gift. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3: 14-16 I pray that God takes His words contained herein to bless the hearts of many. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Denise, you might want to read Who is Allah? before being too definitive. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all spring from the same roots. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, Ron, thank you, I've read that and I've also read definitions elsewhere stating the same and I've also read definitions stating that Allah was derived from the moon god (Alle, or Elle, I believe it was, or something very similar) that was worshipped by the predecessors of Muhammad and that it was a type of incorporation or a blending of beliefs in the culture at the time, which is why they have the symbol of the crescent moon on their mosques, such as was also done with Rome and Christianity in the early days in certain aspects. Whatever the case may be, I'm certainly not an historian by any stretch of the imagination, I find that the Islamic interpretation of God to be counter to all that is revealed in the Old and New Testaments concerning the depiction of who God says He is, ie, evidenced in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Beginning in the Book of Genesis through to Revelations He depicts Himself thus. A careful reading of these scriptures can lead to no other conclusion, although the word Trinity is never mentioned. As I hold only the Bible as the inerrant word of God and do not accept the Qur'an as such, I don't accept anything that is taught in it. If the Islamic faith holds to the Old Testament as a part of their basis of belief, which I know they do, they can easily find revealed in it the One True God (and the link you provided even goes so far as to say that the word God is not permissable to be used, only Allah is the correct and only permissable designation that avoids idolatry, even though at the first they said God was just a translation, but then later in the article, forbid its use, completely)depicting Himself in these three differnt ways. If, as they say, Allah, is the One True God, does he offer to mankind the redemption as depicted even in the Old Testament? If he is truly the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, he would, because God cannot contradict Himself. But I don't think that anyone will find that such is the case upon a study of Islamic doctine and faith. One would find merely man's efforts and striving to attain to something, in order to hopefully someday becoming worthy enough to enter Paradise. One would find a "religion" in the truest sense of the word. From what I have studied of Islam I have found that to be the case. If you can show me something to the contrary stating that Allah freely gives salvation unconditionally to undeserving sinful man, completely apart from man's works and efforts, because of the substitutionary sacrifice of his Messiah, then it could be argued that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Allah are one and the same. If not, then it cannot be argued that they are. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
So, correct me if I'm wrong, Denise, but you're also saying then that the Jewish faith is based on a "different" God than that of Christianity? Everything you've said would seem to apply to both Islam and Judaism. |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Denise, Your analogy to giving a gift to a friend or loved one requires the recipient to measure up to the qualification criteria of ‘friend’ or ‘loved one’. What would somebody, who has not received such a gift, have to do to receive one? Your answer seems to be “nothing” when logic suggests that to receive a gift they would have to become a ‘friend’ or ‘ a loved one’, the reward is the gift the cost and/or payment is friendship or love. I’m confused now as to whether there are several Gods, one for each religion, or one God with several religions. If, as you suggest, there are several gods but the Christian God is the true God does that not mean that all other religions are inferior to Christianity? If however there are several religions all worshipping the same God, albeit under different names, it would seem fair to suggest that all religions are equal and membership of one above any another is only a matter of individual choice. If this is the case why become a Christian, why not a Muslim or Jew? |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Why does everybody think adding Buddha to the usual list of gods makes sense? As far as the gift, well, Mahayana Buddhism deals with much the same thing -- particularly the Pure Land and the True Pure Land sects. In a way. But it really is difficult to discuss this without a lot of background stuff. It's not that Christianity doesn't have something special to it (of course it does), but it's important to be weary of comparing these things so glibly. Doing this, again, shows a lack or respect for the very people you're trying to make see your point of view. If you're not trying to make people see that point of view, then why talk? Anybody ever read Chaucer? Brad |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Brad, “Why does everybody think adding Buddha to the usual list of gods makes sense?” I know as much about Buddha as I do about the Christian God or Allah, which amounts to virtually nothing and is my excuse for adding him to the list. I am however willing to learn if you want to start another thread. “As far as the gift, well, Mahayana Buddhism deals with much the same thing -- particularly the Pure Land and the True Pure Land sects. “ This seems a good place to start. “But it really is difficult to discuss this without a lot of background stuff. It's not that Christianity doesn't have something special to it (of course it does), but it's important to be weary of comparing these things so glibly.” I’m not sure what you mean by ‘glibly’, I know what the word means but can’t understand which part of this thread matches the meaning. “Doing this, again, shows a lack or respect for the very people you're trying to make see your point of view. If you're not trying to make people see that point of view, then why talk? Anybody ever read Chaucer?” I don’t have a point of view at present, I’m simply trying to understand those already voiced by asking questions and questioning the answers given. Talking or discussing seems to be a fairly legitimate vehicle to that end. BTW No, I’ve never read Chaucer. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Phaedrus, Ron, me? Geez, Denise, it seems somebody let the dogs out. |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
I’m a mere Poodle in the company of Philosophical Wolves. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
No, Ron, I am not saying that the God of the Jews is different. He is one and the same. You can see all throughout the Old Testament God's promises of redemption through the coming of Messiah. Those who believed God about that promise and put their faith in that promise were of the same faith of Abraham. Jesus fulfilled that promise of the coming of Messiah. It is the same God in both the Old and New Testaments. The salvation message is consistent from Genesis through Revelations. Phaedrus, the difference with God's gift giving is that He even loves His enemies, not just those who love Him. In fact, He said in Romans 3:10-18: God says "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, there is not even one; Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep deceiving. The poison of asps is under their lips; Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their paths, And the path of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." That is describing you and me and the rest of the human race as we appear in God's eyes, compared to His perfect holiness. Even the "best" of us are worthless in our own self-righteousness. And then in Romans 5:7-10 we read: For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemeies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,(positionally in salvation) much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (experientially and progressively, as we live our lives, growing in the knowledge of His grace.) And then in Romans 3:19 - 25 we find: Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. And then in Romans 3:27-28 we read: Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. His love and gift giving are far superior than ours ever could be. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. It's that simple. There are not several Gods, one for each religion. There is only one true God. God says that there is none other than He Himself and He also says that some worship gods of man's creation, but not the very one who created them. Brad, there is no lack of respect in sharing one's beliefs with others unless it has been made known that those ideas are not welcome. There is no other possible way to grow and learn than that, is there? If you want to share something, share it. No, I don't believe I've read Chaucer. If I did it was in high school and I've long since forgotten it along with my Spanish and German. p.s. I like dogs! |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
This may clarify Christianity's postion about God. There is only one true and living God. He created the cosmos and everything else. All reality itself springs from his being. Yes there are other "gods", but they are misrepresentations. There are gods created by mankind... idols made of stone and wood, or deities created in the mind. Humanity in this sense has fashioned "God" as they want him to be, given him their own names and behavior patterns, and built religions around it. So is the "Christian" God the only God? No... He's the only real one. But then we get into another legitimate issue... You can have doctrines, names, and even Dogmas right, and misrepresent God. You can even call him the God and Father of Jesus Christ, and still get him wrong (in spirit). So all of Christendom has not given a true picture of God, because Idolatry can flourish, while holding on to an outward form of religion. This brings up another interesting point. Ron suggested that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have the same God, because of the same roots. But when we alter who that "God" is, to the point that it really isn't him at all... only the name, or the historical roots remain. If there is one God behind Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, he is schizophrenic (to put it mildly). On one hand, he exalted Jesus as the Son of God, the Christ, and raised him from the dead, declaring that every knee would bow, and ever tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.. and then turns around a few centuries later, and through a "prophet" mohammed says that Allah's chief prophet is Mohammed and Jesus is a lesser prophet. Mohammed goes on to teach that salvation is not by faith in the death burial and ressurrection of Jesus, but by submitting to Allah (works). I believe the Koran also teaches that Jesus did not literally die on the cross but was saved from it. These are not the same "God", though the name might be the same. Aaron in the book of Exodus made a golden calf for the people to worship when Moses had been up on Mount Sinai for a long time... He said about the calf "This is the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt". This is an example of keeping the name, but what's behind the name is not the same. It's a graven image. Allah is not the same God as the God who raised Jesus from the dead. The same goes for the Jews who reject Jesus as the Messiah... The "God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" commended the life and ministry of Jesus, while the Jews who were "jealous for the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob", ended up putting him to death. They had the name, but their heart was far from the God they professed. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (03-04-2002 01:12 AM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Let's carry that argument a little farther, Stephen. The Roman Catholic faith represents a very different Jesus than does the Protestant faith. More ritualistic, less personal. And there's always that Mary thing they have, too. So, according to you, even if they're using the right name and the right historical events, their interpretation is so "wrong" that it's not REALLY Jesus at all, except in name? Of course, from the other side of the fence, it's those indulgent Protestants who have it all wrong. Jew and Muslim both believe in a just, merciful, and loving God. Jew and Muslim both live their lives under Law, albeit a very different interpretation of that Law. Jew and Muslim both believe Jesus was a prophet of God, not the living Son of God. Jew and Muslim both believe in a salvation founded in Justice and Mercy. If you deny the authority of the Islamic God, just because He differs from your Christian interpretations, you really have no choice but to also deny the Jewish God for the very same reasons. And of course, at that point, you're stuck with a very serious paradox. Did Jesus worship the wrong God? Doctrine CANNOT establish respect, else you'll find yourself in a tiny little corner with maybe three other people who believe exactly as you do. And you can never really be too sure about those three. Look for differences, and you'll always find them. There are HUGE differences between all major religions, and there are equally huge differences between every denomination of Christianity. Look for differences, and you'll set Jew against Muslim against Christian. Look for differences, and you'll set Baptist against Lutheran against Mormon. Look for differences, and you'll always find them. Look for similarities, however, and you'll find those, too. Whether the similarities are many or few, they will always exist, because every man since the dawn of time has been looking to fill the same spiritual hole. Muslim. Hindu. Jew. Catholic. Buddhist. Sikh. Protestant. At some level, they are always the same. Here's a little multiple choice test for you, courtesy Kluckhohn and Murray (1953). Every human is in certain respects A. like all other humans B. like some other humans C. like no other human The answer, of course, is D - all of the above. Which of those you emphasize at any given time will determine your life. And, sometimes, the course of history. I believe that every person's faith is ultimately founded on divine revelation. You feel the presence of God and accept the Truth He brings you. As a Protestant, perhaps, you recognize that Catholics can experience the same sense of divine revelation, even if you think they get some of the details horribly wrong. We see enough similarities to negate the many differences. Why is it so hard, then, to accept that a Hindu can feel the presence and Truth of God? Do you think a Catholic loves God less than a Protestant, or a Muslim less than a Jew? Ignore the differences, and you'll find the similarities remarkably striking. No matter how strong my faith, I long ago realized my understanding would always be weak. Divine revelation may be boundless, but the receptacle is limited. Even what might seem like contradictions may be so only within my limited perceptions. Only God can understand God. Only God can comprehend God's plan. I have to walk the path I see before me. I have to believe it's the right path. But to say that all other paths are wrong is the height of pride and arrogance, and suggests I know far more than I can ever possibly know. I see only what God has revealed to me, and part of that is to know He doesn't tell me everything. Who is to say whether the Hindu or the Muslim or the Mormon worship different Gods than the one who speaks to me? I will never be able to see God through their eyes, through their hearts, but I often wonder, if I could, might I not recognize an old and infinitely complex Friend? |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Denise quoted, "I'm certainly not an historian by any stretch of the imagination, I find that the Islamic interpretation of God to be counter to all that is revealed in the Old and New Testaments concerning the depiction of who God says He is, ie, evidenced in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Beginning in the Book of Genesis through to Revelations He depicts Himself thus. A careful reading of these scriptures can lead to no other conclusion, although the word Trinity is never mentioned." To me, the bible never supported the trinity belief. In fact, in the NT, Paul begins almost every letter to the church without ever mentioning a Holy Spirit. What is in a name? God the Father = Yahweh. The Son = Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit = ? No name. Being called "the Comforter, etc, does not count because it is description, not a name. I don't believe the bible teaches a trininty. The trinity concept was derived from the Egyptian religion of the Ba and the Ra. "In the beginning there was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God..." Upon reading that passage it would appear to me that their are only 2 persons in the Godhead. Many Christians with whom I have studied the Bible with, along with myself came to the same conclusion = The Holy Spirit of God is how God (The Father and the Son) make contact, spirtually. It is not an entity, but the power of both the Father and the Son. Genesis reads, "...and the spirit of God moved over the earth." So, Denise, it is your opinion that there is no other conclusion possible, but there most certainly is... another note - did any of you know that during the 17th century, before the bible was massly produced, certain monks added to the sripture (I can't remember in which book, I would have to consult my notes), but they addes these words, "...and these three are one." It is well known fact, and an embarassement to the leaders of the Christian faith, that these words were added during that time frame after the many hundreds of years of using that specific passage as concrete evidence of a trinity. The more we learn and open our minds, the more we find that what we were told is not the truth. |
||
|
Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
The attempt to define something as diverse as Christianity, while good exercise for your debating skills is more likely to irritate rather than illuminate. Knowing I can't illuminate, I ask only that nobody get irritated at the following, which while not totally satirical isn't exactly serious either. Assuming the atheists are wrong and there is a God, it would probably be safe to say there is only one of Him. ( the Holy Trinity not withstanding) Now, imagine several thousand years ago someone knew all about this one God, and he told someone else, and they in turn....etc.. etc.. ( you get the idea )-- words were written and amended, and more words followed-- some were declared to be the very words of God himself. Since human beings did the writing and telling it isn't hard to imagine how it could become so mixed up thousands of years later. There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Questions about the NT 1. It is the Gospel of whom? 2. What was the good news (gospel) that Christ spoke of? 3. What did Christ say to those who think that they only have to believe in Him without doing what He says? 4. What is a sin? Are sins the same for every Christian? 5. What day of the week did Christ and his apostles (even after his death) worship on? [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-04-2002 12:51 PM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Good point, Jamie, but (mainstream) Christians believe that the Bible was Holy Spirit inspired while written and therefore cannot be error. To those Christians who do not believe that the Bible is infallible...well, then I guess the entire religion is a "free-for-all" and believe what you want and disregard the rest. |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Stephanos, “So is the "Christian" God the only God? No... He's the only real one. “ So what you are saying, if I’m reading this right, is that Christianity is the only true religion, all the others are inferior, praying to gods that are unreal; that don’t really exist. So I take it that before Christianity there was no true religion and all gods up to that time were false or did not in fact exist or was there a religion that worshipped the Christian true God before the arrival of Christianity? |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ron, On further reflection, if Islam indeed worships the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as they state and their diety is not the Arabian moon god as some references state, or an attempted combination of the two, then they are worshiping the same God as Christians. Their concept of Him is vastly different though, and in that sense He is not the same. Regardless of how different religions or people see Him, the fact remains that there is only One God, which was the original question by Phaedrus. People may have different perceptions of Him, but whatever their perceptions, He remains who He is. Opeth, I stand corrected. You have proven to me that there can be other interpretations of the number of ways in which God has revealed Himself. Yet, according to your own interpretation, there are still two manifestations, as opposed to what is understood by Islam. They still have to deny at worst or mistranslate at best, God’s word in Genesis, “In the beginning, We created…” to arrive at their doctrinal position. I personally believe that He has manifested Himself in three.. In Matthew 28:19 we read Christ’s own words after His resurrection: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. I am not at all familiar with that verse that was supposedly added in the 17th century. You'll have to share that if you find it. I’d have to say that the general consensus in Christian thought is that we are not bound by observance of the Sabbath, regardless whether it be believed to be on Saturday or Sunday or any other holy day. Some decide to hold it special and some do not but hold all days as holy unto the Lord. My understanding of the purpose of the Sabbath was to point to the future rest to be found in Christ. And like the rest of the Law, Christians are not bound to the performance of the Law to gain or maintain righteousness. The Apostle Paul taught Christians not to act as judges of each other in these matters and in other matters as well. Gospel literally means good news. There are various ways that this word is used in the New Testament. Sometimes if refers to the good news of the literal earthly Kingdom of God to be set up in Israel. Sometimes it refers to the good news of salvation. Sometimes it simply refers to temporal good news. Whose Gospel? That depends on how you are defining the word Gospel. What did Christ say to those who think they only have to believe in Him without doing what he says? The thing that He said in response to the question, "What must we do to do the works of God?" was that the "works of God" is to believe in Him. Are you thinking of a different verse? If so, you’ll have to let me know what it is so I can look it up. My belief is that once a person comes to Christ through faith for salvation they are no longer under the Law for righteousness. The requirements of the Law have been fulfilled by Christ on behalf of the believer. He did state that He did not come to abolish the Law, which is true. He came to fulfill it by His life, death and resurrection. If He has fulfilled its requirements, then we don't have to labor under it. We are to rest in Him and believe in Him to live His perfect life through us. Which day of the week did Christ observe the Sabbath? He observed it on Saturday as He had to fulfill the Law perfectly on our behalf in order to be able to be offered as the sinless spotless sacrifice. I don’t know which day the apostles observed the Sabbath after Christ’s death and/or resurrection. I have read literature that argues both positions. My view is that whatever day they chose they were not doing it to fulfill the Law, since Christ had already done that, but were gathering together to worship God, as we do today. What is sin? To my understanding, it is any act or failure to act that falls short of the perfect standard of God’s revealed will. And for the Christian, that is not the LAW with its commands. We live by a higher law of faith in Christ's fulfillment of the Law, the Law of Liberty, characterized by love. If we are resting in Christ and allowing Him to live His life through us, then we will not violate His will, since Christ cannot violate it. It is when we take our focus off of Him that we can fall into sin. In fact the Bible even says that whatever is not of faith is sin. So then it could even be argued that the good we do, if we are not resting in Christ to perform them, that is even sin. Can something be a sin for one Christian and not for another. Yes. If something is not specifically against the revealed will of God, and yet it offends the conscience of someone, (that someone being described as weak in faith) then for him to partake of that which his conscience forbids, then for him it is sin. (in the Bible it is a conversation about, eating meat as opposed to eating just vegetables.) And the point of these verses was to tell us not to judge each other in these matters, but for each person to live at peace with their own consciences and with each other and that whatever we do, to do all to the glory of God. Phaedrus, That is not what Stephanos has said. Go back and read what he said again. There is only One True God, and we have seen that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He has always existed and existed prior to Christianity. That has been stated numerous times in this thread. Different religions may have different perceptions of who He is and/or who He says He is and some religions actually do worship gods of their own creation. That does not change the fact that He is who He is. Also, as I’ve said before, Christianity is not a religion. It is being rightly related to God, this being made possible by the sacrifice of His Son on our behalf, completely apart from our own works and efforts, in fulfillment of His plan from eternity past. There is no religion that offers this to anyone nor even claims to. Only God can and does, through Christ. And the offer is available to anyone who wishes to receive it, regardless of who they are, regardless of their religion, regardless of anything they have or have not done. "Whosoever will" [This message has been edited by Denise (03-04-2002 09:33 PM).] |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ron, I hear much truth in what you are saying. And yet I hope you hear the truth in what I am trying to say. Jesus according to scripture (and according to the revelation he has given to me) is more than a prophet. In fact the apostles interpreted his life in this manner... "In the beginning was the word. The word was with God. The word was God. . . The word became flesh and dwelled among us". They believed that Jesus Christ was "God incarnate". When you believe this doctrine (and it's really not a doctrine when we know him... it's an essence... it is Who he is) other views of Christ and by implication, God, must be denied. Jesus said many things which communicated his exclusiveness. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me". . . "He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son does not have life" . . . "Most assuredly I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a theif and a robber ... I am the door of the sheep". I understand that we should not be trying to make all own God to the exact parameters of our limited and often erroneous views... And we should never operate in pride. That's why even my own view of God must come under HIS scrutiny. I don't always trust my own view of God ... though I glide along many times in seeming confidence, there is a sneaking suspicion that I have missed something. Even Jesus' closest disciples were rebuked and corrected for views of "God" that were really images of "God" in man's image. So there is alot of room for grace, compassion, and patience on the part of believers in Christ, who "see through a glass darkly". There is also much grace and compassion for those who don't accept Christianity ... but it is also a grace that tells them they are wrong where they are wrong and right where they are right. If someone follows a prophet (like Mohammed) who taught that Jesus was someone other than he revealed himself to be, then they are following a false prophet. Jesus himself said to beware of false prophets. The apostles echoed this by warning against the spirit of "anti-Christ". My attitude is always to seek Jesus for who He revels himself to be. This goes way beyond doctrine... But it is not an all inclusive road. Jesus said "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it". I would rather be in that "tiny little corner with three other people, if I can be assured that one of them is Jesus Christ". . . (of course he came to save all who would believe) He never came to honor man's ways to "god". He came to say that there is one way to God, namely himself. He tended to upset people with his exclusive views of his Father. He was called "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence". He taught about "wheat and tares" that looked alike. He said things like, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword..." He even called the Pharisees, the religious elite representing the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, sons of the Devil. He did not doubt that they claimed to worship the same God, but in reality, they hated God... this was manifested in what they did to him in the end. "Whoever rejects me, rejects the one who sent me". The "paradox" which asks if Jesus worshipped the right God, is not a paradox at all. He worshipped the right God indeed ... the God that a religious nation had quit worshipping in the main long ago, though they retained many outward ceremonies and doctrines and laws. "They drew near to God with their lips, but their hearts were far from him". All of these things sound harsh, especially coming from the mouth of one who is known for love and unbounded compassion... And certainly these ideas can be taken out of balance. They can even be used to defend yet another personal "graven image" of God, with great Zeal and intimidation. But that's the risk... Jesus said them. I believe he said them for a reason. Do I understand it all? No. But I recieve this one truth. . . "Let God be true, but every man a liar". If God said it, it matters not who says otherwise, me, you, or anyone else. There is a tendency to take all world religions and make them different paths that lead to the same destiny. But Christ taught one path to the Father... himself. Despite the exclusiveness of Christians, they are called love the outsiders all the more (and many do). Being exclusive does not mean hating, abusing, or despising. It means standing in the truth, yet being open to dialogue without a nasty spirit. I am assuming you are a Christian from some of the things you have said before. And I am not your adversary. Nor Am I saying that I have it all right. But I know that HE does. I want to make sure I have it right. If that comes across as rigid at times I cannot help it. But I see the same in the scriptures, even in Jesus himself. There were points on which he would not and could not move. But his heart was more free and unbound than anyone, and he chose to suffer by a great love for us all. respectfully, Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (03-05-2002 12:55 AM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Jesus could justify rigidity, Stephen. He could justify righteous anger. He could, and did, and WILL judge people. I am not Jesus. I have to make my own choices every day, always in the face of what is necessarily imperfect knowledge. If God chooses to reveal some small Truth to me, I know it is just one thread of a much larger tapestry. I can't even be sure I haven't frayed the ends of my thread, or put a big knot right in the middle of it, because God promised me the free will to exactly that. I know next to nothing. Half of what I do know is probably wrong. I am surely not Jesus. How could I possibly tell a man of conscience his thread is the wrong color for God's tapestry just because I can see it's not the same color as mine? |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Opeth and others, I see no contradiction between your dualist interpretation and the traditional trinity. If I win a race, was it I who won or my running ability? The unity of aspects or characteristics does not change that these things are different yet nevertheless the same and separable. I like that you got Denise to concede that different interpretations are possible. That's a significant concession (it doesn't go anywhere of course, but I live for stuff like that ) -- I'm sure she doesn't feel it's all that significant.On the seventeenth century addition: The question the comes to my mind is so what? If the Bible is endowed with the 'Holy Spirit', who's to say that the monk who did that wasn't also endowed with the 'Holy Spirit'? The term revealed truth has come up in a number of places but whether you accept a dualist or trinitarian view of God, you still have to accept the essential point that unity is a unity of multiplicity: each aspect in no way contradicts the other. In this sense, it was simply time to emphasize another point in this multiplicity, one that was already there but, for any of a number of reasons (humanity's immaturity immediately comes to mind), was not emphasized in the same light as now and by the seventeenth century monk. This point simply follows from Ron's point about the infallibility doctrine (in another thread). If the Bible is infallible, it's always already infallible, whatever mistakes, errors in judgement, or whatever we make does nothing to change that. It is so by definition. But that infallibility is still under the same multiplicity as unified God. See how that works? Of course, Ron said that infallibility is our check to determine God's prophets from the real ones, but doesn't it work the other way around? We assume infallibility first and then proceed to explain what only initially looks fallible into the infallible. If we didn't do this, we would then be saying that our concepts, our ideas, our limited ways of thinking and seeing are above God's works, that we have the ability to judge God. And nobody really wants to do that, do they? In our mundane, historically situated world, this has led to some frightening consequences, and it's not dissimilar to the infallibility doctrine of the communist party. But nobody really wants to go there, do they? More later, Brad Next, similarity and difference, or why do we all want everybody to think like us and take all the fun out of life. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"I personally believe that He has manifested Himself in three.. In Matthew 28:19 we read Christ’s own words after His resurrection: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”." - Now one of us would have to be wrong, right? The nature and just who is the Deity is extremely important, lest Satan cast in confusion and we would all be worshipping a false God. I read that passage and means the opposite to me. - In the NAME of both Father and Son and OF the Holy Spirit - which is the Spirit of both the Father and the Son. I believe the bible teaches that God the Father, Christ the Son, and His Church which is the Bride and Bride and the Son ultimately bring forth the Born Again Children = the Christians of the Church (Bride). No trinity here. "I am not at all familiar with that verse that was supposedly added in the 17th century. You'll have to share that if you find it." - Well it is a fact. And it makes me wonder how many other ways in which the bible has been altered through translations to change meanings into what MEN think and want it to mean. "I’d have to say that the general consensus in Christian thought is that we are not bound by observance of the Sabbath, ...Some decide to hold it special and some do not but hold all days as holy unto the Lord." - Let me preface my answer to this by asking you this question. Out of the 10 commandments (don't say they were abolished, that is another issue), which one would you believe to be the easist to break without ever knowing it? To me, the answer is simple, it is the 4th commandment, Keeping the Sabbath holy. No other commandment could be easily dismissed. Now Christ summed up the commandments by telling people to love the lord and love your neighbor. The first 4 commandments deal with loving the lord, the last 6 deal with loving one's neighbor. The bible defines sin for us. It is the breaking of God's commandments. It is in your bible, no matter what we think a sin is, man can't determine what is sin, the bible tells us what sin is. Many people confuse the "jewish laws" with the laws of God, which never were abolished, otherwise there would be no sin. There are no laws, I will kill because that ******* deserves it. No, the commandments are alive and well, read the old testament, the prophecies of the end days in Isaiah, Ezekial among others...those prophecies are for today. I have much written on this and would have to obtain my notes...if I have the time, I will share with you with these passages. Even in the NT in revelations, read the final passages where Christ is coming back and only those who are keeping his commandments shall be saved. Now with that being said, the Sabbath was MADE. It was created by God. Even before the laws of Moses, the Sabbath was a holy day unto the lord. Who and by what authority changed the Sabbath to Sunday? The apostles kept the Sabbath, read it in Acts...long after Christ died. If the Sabbath was changed after his death, why did they not celebrate Sunday or any day as the Sabbath? Now, once one learns of this truth (if it is proven), and one dismisses it, or refuses to believe it, while other Christians believe differently, who is right? One of you are among the false churhces that was prophesized in revelations and througout the NT....Christ called his flock "little" - Revelations states that Satan deceives the WHOLE world, Christ told of those who worshipped him, but didn't do what he had told them to...A false christ, appearing as a minister of righteiousness (False Christianity)...which Christian church is the TRUE church? It does make a difference. There was only one gospel, Christ said it himself, The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand. All other issues of being saved, etc is of course part of the teaching, but was not the thrust of his teaching. The meaning was changed by men, seeking a business. The christian leaders of today are the scribes and pharisees of Christ's time, no doub in my mind. They have missed the point, just as those leaders did in Christ's day and these leaders today have a huge following, just as the scribes/pharisees did back then. Here is what I have found to be true, to be truly taught by the Holy Spirit...and don't worry, it is not for all today to understand, but only a select few (which doesn't make the select few any better). 1. God is not trying to save the world today. He is no contest with Satan in a soul saving mission. 2. Most people who have lived throughout the ages will ultimately be saved. 3. There are 3 ressurections to take place. One, immediately upon Christ's return. After that there will be the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth where those saints will teach the rest of the mortals who will be raised up just as Ezekial prophecized in the Valley of the Bones. Most of these people will accept Christ and become new spirtiual beings, those who rebel, will join in on the 3rd ressurection - the ressurection of the incorrigably wicked. 4. Those who will be ressurected for eternal punishment will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will burn up and no longer exist. 5. Satan and his minions will spend eternity in Tartaros, nothing but blackness forever in torments. Alas, they were created as immortal spirits, unlike the human being. Now, this is what the Holy Spirit of God taught me as I seeked the truth. Most Christian churches would call me crazy or a heretic...so who is right? |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Opeth, But isn't that the whole point? The quest for rightness is an impossible quest as long as we remain in our limited, historically situated selves. Yet, nevertheless the quest must be undertaken in order to show precisely our limitations without God. Everybody knows I don't really believe in any of this stuff (actually, my position is that the TRUTH doesn't matter), but I really like Denise's example of religion as a kind of example, an example that gives us a way to live our lives in the everyday world. That we have no surefire way to know we're right fits quite well with the way I see the world. Dealing with doubt, uncertainty, contingency, the unexpected, the unthought, the indifferent are uncomfortable concepts for most people, but while religion, faith, revelation, and the Bible may not necessarily be solutions to this dilemma, they are ways of coping with them. If the TRUTH were obtainable by human beings in human ways, I think this essential point would be missed: The jump across the abyss in any situation is one made blind but it nevertheless must be made. Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (03-05-2002 04:53 PM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Denise, I couldn't agree more. My point is that NO perception of Him can ever be complete and whole, certainly not in this existence, and probably not in any. The infinite is beyond our grasp. It's like the old cliché about the three blind men and the elephant. If you're feeling an ear and I'm feeling the leg, we're going to have very different perceptions of that elephant. But, it would still be pure folly for me to try to tell you that elephants don't have ears. God remains who He is - even if all I can ever feel is a leg. quote: See above, Opeth. I'm unclear why right and wrong is so important. I can mathematically show both that X=2 and X=3. So, if you think X=2, then you're right. If someone else thinks X=3, they're right, too. And no one has yet seen ALL the possible answers. Are we so foolish as to imagine God has shown us all that He is? Are we so arrogant as to believe we could understand all that He is? quote: Should we believe God is powerless to make His message known because of the handiwork of mere men? I think it's clear, if you examine ALL the holy books attributed to the same God, that something somewhere is less than kosher (pun fully intended). But I also believe the important message remains untouched and certain. That belief is based on nothing more than trust. quote: ALL OF THEM! Which was the whole purpose of the Law. There isn't a single one of them you can avoid breaking. quote: Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter. Because even if the Law still exists, the punishment for breaking it has been abolished. Or, more accurately, it's already been paid. Those who try to live in obedience do so out of love, not fear. (One also should be careful to not confuse sin with Sin. There was technically no sin in the world until Moses, because there was no Law. But Sin has existed since Adam and Eve.) quote: God worships a day of the week? Gee, and I didn't even realize He was bound by the trivial movements of our tiny little solar system. Let alone a man-made calendar. Okay, setting aside cute for a minute (but, it's hard to refrain), this is one of those thousand-and-one instances where too much attention to minutiae risks overlooking the greater truth of WHY the Sabbath was deemed holy. Love God. Every day. Heed the why, and everything else is just detail. quote: Only if you're in the wrong one. (See, I told you it was hard to refrain.) Okay, more seriously, I don't think right and wrong, true and false, have anything at all to do with doctrine. Doctrine is all about obedience. What does God want us to do? That sort of thing. And that's important. But if your dad tells you do something, you misunderstand what he meant and do something different, he's not going to get mad if he knows your intent. Frustrated perhaps, but not mad. And God DOES know intent. Usually, when you get doctrine wrong the results are about the same as when you misunderstand your dad. He told you to take out the garbage, so you buy it dinner and a movie, and your social life plummets accordingly. You suffer, but only because you didn't do what was good for you. Doctrine is invariably God's way of telling you what is good for you. Get it right and life is good. Get it wrong and you suffer. But not because you're being rewarded or punished. In my opinion, the false church has nothing do with churches or organized religions. The false church is ANYTHING you value more than God. It replaces God not in the sense that it's a different or wrong God, but rather in the sense that you no longer have room in your life for any God. I'm certainly not a prophet, but I'd be willing to bet the false church will have a lot more to do with money than with doctrine. quote: You sound Jewish? Because that's exactly what the Jews believed, and is THE REASON they crucified Jesus. They wanted a Messiah who would lead them out of Roman servitude, establishing the Kingdom that was their birthright. They couldn't understand that God's concept of "… at Hand" was on a little grander scale than their own simple temporal existence. Fortunately, God realized early on that the Kingdom of Heaven was going to be a little sparse without divine intervention, 'cause the number of humans who had earned entry two thousand years ago could be counted on one hand. Salvation isn't incidental to the message. It IS the message. quote: Please don't crap a brick, Opeth, but I essentially agree with all five of your points. I do not agree the understanding is only for a select few, nor do I believe this is the whole story. It's just the very small part we've been told, probably the only part we can hope to understand. I have this sneaky suspicion there's about a thousand years of glossed over prophesy that is far more important than we realize. quote: I agree completely, Brad. I think many people miss the fact that Jesus was a teacher, centering instead only on His sacrifice. If salvation were His only purpose, it could have been done a lot more quickly. The death and resurrection deal with our eternity, but the life of Jesus deals with our here and now. He was the ultimate example of how to live our lives, not to earn brownie points with God, but because it simply makes for better and richer lives. God let's us make our own choices, but He has given us plenty of really good advice on what works and what doesn't. What would Jesus do in this situation? No matter a person's faith, they could hardly go wrong by asking that question a little more often. |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Denise, I read the whole thread again and Stephanos definitely said: “So is the "Christian" God the only God? No... He's the only real one. “ It’s in the 33rd post four paragraphs down. What I asked was: “So what you are saying, if I’m reading this right, is that Christianity is the only true religion, all the others are inferior, praying to gods that are unreal; that don’t really exist.” “He's the only real one.” – this statement, unless I misread it, seems to point to the above, if I’m reading this right. “So I take it that before Christianity there was no true religion and all gods up to that time were false or did not in fact exist or was there a religion that worshipped the Christian true God before the arrival of Christianity?” This is an either/or question based on the first statement, I asked it to help clarify in my own mind the singular ‘real’ God and Christianity’s position with relation to that God. Brad I can see the merit that Christianity has as an example of how one might live ones life however the same thing could be said for the Islamic faith; Hinduism and the even the Waltons! Most religions, as I see them, tend to stem from mans quest for an answer to the question that has been on his lips since he first raised his eyes from the savannah to gaze at the night sky – WHY? Human nature does not allow an unanswered question, in the same way that nature itself abhors a vacuum, once a question has been asked answers rush to fill the void. One of those answers may even be correct but to elevate one above any other, at this time, would be foolhardy. As I’ve said previously, I know very little about any religion the only thing I can say with any conviction is that for every scrap of ‘proof’ offered by any member of one religion all the others will wave a counter proof. Every man is entitled to his/her belief and disbelief, I’ll listen to all of them and jump if and when I’m ready. If others have already made their leap who am I to argue? Thanks for the chance to read and reply. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Phaedrus, Yes, I believe you are missing the point. Stephanos was simply answering the question you asked, and was expressing that He isn't the only God, in the sense that some people do worship "god's" of their own creation, thus the emphatic statement that He is the only true God. God is not "Christian". God is God, existing eternally, prior to any understanding of Him by man and also prior to any religion. Christians, the first of whom were all Jewish, are merely those who have believed (regardless of their culture, religion, ethnicity, strengths or weaknesses)that Jesus is the Messiah or Christ that God had promised (beginning in Genesis and foretold throughout the Old Testament) and as foretold, believe that He has provided salvation to us freely by the efficacy of His sinless life, substitionary sacrificial death in atonement for our sins, past, present and future, and that His bodily resurrection was the sign of approval that His sacrifice was accepted by God on our behalf. Christ's death was not only necessary, in other words, it was and always will be enough. All we need do is receive what He has done, personally for ourselves, through faith. When people finally realize the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice, they realize that there is nothing that they ever could have done or ever will be able to do to add to what He has already done. To everyone, Whenever you hear the gospel of Christ's death being proclaimed for salvation you are hearing God's heart calling out to the ones He longs to gather unto Himself. The message should never be interpreted as a put down of those who are caught up in the rituals of religion or in the imaginations of their mind, for that is not the intent nor the focus of the message. The heart of the message is God's infinite unconditional love for man. He is crying out "Look and live". As I've said numerous times in this thread, Christianity is not a religion. It is not man's attempt to attain to or relate to God by man's efforts, works, observence of the Law, etc. It is simply receiving what God has already done on our behalf and it can only be received as a gift. In other words, it's free for the taking and we can't pay God for it with our imperfect attempts at law or rule keeping. If we want God to accept us on the terms of our own righteousness, we're in big trouble because His Law demands perfection, which means you have never or will never break a single command and in every good deed that you ever have done or ever will do it must be performed with pure motives beyond reproach. God said if you break one command, even once in your whole life, you've broken the whole and you are utterly without hope. A thousand "good deeds" cannot make up for it. He says He gave us His Law to prove to us that we cannot do it and to make us see our utter hopelessness and need for a savior. God doesn't grade on the curve. It's perfection or nothing. Perfection can only be found in God and His righteousness. "Because by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified in His sight,for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested , being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:20-24 Ron, Yes, I would agree that one would be arrogant and a fool to proclaim to know the mind of God in totality. I am convinced that there is much that man does not know and perhaps may never know, or may not be able to understand even if it were revealed, but I do know that what He has already said can be banked on. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the life and that no one can come to the Father except through Him. Now, since I believe that Jesus is God and that He is trustworthy, that He cannot lie, I can trust my eternal soul into His safekeeping and if I knew nothing more than that, that would be enough. Any other facet of His mind, revealed or not, could not contradict the truth of what He has already revealed. We first have to start with what we know He has said and done and then base all other thought and opinion in the light of that. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ron, As I mentioned before, I see much truth in what you are saying... and the humility aspect of it is admirable. I think we should all be humble and remember that He is God and we aren't. Perspective is good. But I do believe where God has given divine revelation through scripture, and where we can "rightly divide the word of truth", we can speak certainly about those things and proclaim them as right... And yes conversely, other things as wrong. What happened to speaking the truth in love? This is the correct antidote for speaking in arrogance (truth or lie). But "Do not speak the truth for you are too fallible to be confident of it" is not much better. There is something to be said of a possible "false humility" creeping in. . . a kind of humility which fails to speak God's revealed truth, because of not wanting to offend, or to preserve an excusing "doubt of self, is really to not trust that God can reveal certainty to men that can be taught to others. If you want a pattern for good disclipleship to Christ, take his very twelve, or Paul, or Stephen. These men taught certainty of unwavering truth. Was Jesus the only one who seemed rigid or immoveable? Take a look at the sermon of Stephen in the book of Acts. This kind of "standing" is not in pride or human confidence. But where God has revealed clearly, it stands with boldness. There is a fine line between confidence in his truth, and arrogance. Have I ever crossed that line the wrong way? I'm more than sure I have. But there is also a fine line between self-doubt and unbelief. Just something to consider. Stephen. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Where many of you are now, I was already there. Brad talks about truths in plural, and he makes much sense, but when I was searching for the truth over 15 years ago, I believe the one and only truth was revealed to me (at that time). What is sin, I asked. I didn't receive the answer that I found. I didn't come up with a MANkind answer. I found the answer many years ago in the bible...and yes, it deals with laws (another topic in which many of you are not understanding). But read your own bible 1 John 3:4 states, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law." Therefore, a sin is not something we people can say is or is not. A sin is the transgression of the laws of God. Should I continue? Or are you all so set in your ways, that just like the people of Christ's time, including the scribes and pharisees, that you don't want to open your minds and search for the REAL TRUTH. For if you make that decision, you can't turn back. You will become an outcast, just like I was. Come to think of it, Christ and his followers were never accepted by society either, so the company isn't bad. Let's compare today with the time of Christ. 1. The Scribes and Pharisees of then are like the christian leaders of today. 2. Jesus was a Jew and the Scribes and Pharisees were Jews, the book in question was the OT, where today, the preachers, priests, etc are christians, and the book in question is both the OT and the NT. 3. Jesus taught that the S/Ps were missing the point and were not understanding the truth, and so is the same today. 4. Jesus said the true church will be hated and persecuted. Back then Himself and his followers were definitely not a part of society, hated, considered a cult. Today, the christian church is accepted and is mainstream in the US, the most powerful nation on the earth, certainly not considered a cult and hated like Christ and his followers. Conclusion - Today's christianity is the same as the Jewish faith of Christ time in its acceptance. 5. Jesus spoke of a false christ, that satan deceives the whole world. False christianity equaled to that of the Jewish faith of His time is equivalent. That doesn't mean that the people in charge and their followers are doing so deliberately, it is just that the majority of them do not know the TRUTH. Final conclusion - The true christian and its true church today would not be accepted by society and the believers would be considered to be crazy just as Christ and his followers were during his time. What is sin? I didn't give the answer. Your own bible did. If your carnal mind wants to already try to find some way out of the answer that the bible has given, so be it. That is what the people did during Christ's time when He taught the TRUE meaning of the scriptures. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 09:42 AM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
So sin is the transgression of the laws of God, that is what the bible says...let's piece together some info abou this subject of law. Should then Christians keep the laws of God? Rom 6:12 states, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Easy to understand, can't get this one misinterpreted. Paul is telling the Roman church not let sin "reign" in their body. Now that doesn't mean that the those people will not ever sin, but not to let it "reign" = take over. Don't break the laws of God with knowledge and continuous, is one way of describing it. So many people confuse keeping the laws of a loving God through his Son, with just obiding by laws without the Son, that is where many christians make their mistake because the LAWS of God are LOVE. Rom 13:10 "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Think about it, if you love your mother or father you will obey them, yes? Or if your daughter or son love you they will obey you, yes? Why do they call me Lord and don't do what I tell them to? I don't even know them! But the Scribes and pharisees couldn't see through the law. It was not in their hearts, it was not in LOVE. It was not spiritual. Rom 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Spiritual = law = love. To sin is to transgress the laws of God. Those laws are spiritual. And in keeping those laws one must be of the spirit of God and through the love of God, which he showed his love through the death of his Son - not to let sin reign in their hearts. I could go on. I have only scratched, and I mean just barely scratched the surface of this subject, which was a favorite of mine when it was revealed to me so many years ago...and if I would continue on with this TRUTH...it would be irrefutable. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 09:42 AM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Of course, most of you are not being called at this time and will not understand it and will reason it away with your carnal and false (albeit unintentionally) beliefs. Rom 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." "Gulp" [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 09:54 AM).] |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Opeth, none of the verses that you have stated here have been taken in their context and none of them, despite your understanding, are saying that salvation comes through our obeying the Law or through faith in Christ plus our obeying the Law. Reading and study must always be done in context so as to avoid inadvertant misinterpretation. God's plan and message are simple and run through the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments. The truth that you seem to have arrived at is that truth = obeying the Law for righteousness. The truth that I see is Christ alone, as He has fulfilled the Law on our behalf. The entirety of scripture validates this. I think this beautiful piece of scripture makes it as plain as it can be. Chapter 3 of the Book of Galations O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed,no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: We're half in agreement then, Stephen. I have very few qualms about expressing what I believe is "right." Read my last post as just one example of many things I believe are clearly taught in the Bible. I rarely equivocate in what I believe to be true, nor am I shy about expressing my beliefs. Like you, I believe God has never lied to us and never will. But I also KNOW God has never revealed the whole truth. Not in the Bible. Not in personal revelation. For me to know and understand the whole truth, I would have to become like God, His equal in every way. I believe that was the mistake Satan made, and even today, I think there are people with the arrogance to believe they are privileged above others. If knowledge is power, we should also remember that power corrupts. I believe an understanding of how very little we understand is the only shield against that corruption. Faith is not about certainty. If it was, God would never be ambiguous. Let's go back to the very beginning. "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen 2:16-17) This was certainly the Truth. But was it the whole truth? Did Adam and Eve have a complete and full understanding of exactly what their disobedience would bring into the world? I honestly don't know, but if it was me, with the knowledge I have today, I can't even imagine being foolish enough to eat that fruit. Satan could talk until he was blue in the face and I still ain't going there. But if I knew only what God had said to me, I might think He meant the fruit was poison, and yea, Satan just might be able to convince me it wasn't all that poisonous. I am not in any way suggesting that God used a half-truth to trick Adam and Eve. That's Satan's MO, not God's. I think, rather, that God said, "Here is what you need to know, and here are your choices. Now, how much do you trust me?" Faith is not about certainty. If it was, there would never have been Sin, Ishmael would not have been born, and Bathsheba would not be the mother of David's line. Let's skip way ahead, to what I think is the most important message of the Bible. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16) Surely, this verse is unequivocal, a full and complete Truth that cannot possibly be misunderstood? I'm honestly not so certain of that any more. At one time, I absolutely believed it was THE Truth, the ONLY Truth, and certainly the only Truth that MATTERED. Everything else in the Bible, I thought, was written around this single statement of absolute Truth. It didn't matter what day of the week you went to church, it didn't matter if you spoke in tongues, it didn't matter whether you were baptized or attended confession regularly - as long as you believed in Christ, everything else was just detail, important but still circumstantial. I still believe that, all of that, but I have since become less convinced it is THE Truth as much as perhaps it is A Truth. I've realized, I think, that my understanding of "believes" could be less than complete. I've realized that the multiplicity of the Trinity adds ambiguity to the pronoun "Him." I've realized that God has never, throughout the Bible, given us simple answers. They are always, it seems, layered in complexity and meaning. I want this one statement, if nothing else in the Bible, to be simple, unequivocal, and fully True. I want it to be certain. But faith is not about certainty. I believe Jesus is the one true path to salvation. I've never been afraid to state that Truth for any who would listen. But I also know I can stretch that verse, that most important of all verses, into other meanings. If God can be a Trinity then God can be a Multiplicity, and to believe in One is to believe in All. No, I don't really believe that. But I doubt that Adam believed in spiritual death, either. My simple truth is that I know all my truths are simple. I have many such truths, and I write both because I want to share them with others and because I think they're worth sharing. That's not humility, Stephen, but hubris. It's not self-doubt, and it's certainly not doubt of God's greater Truth. It's acknowledgement that simple truths can still have meaning without necessarily becoming Ultimate Truth. I believe in the Truths I have been given, and share those where I can. I no longer believe they are whole Truths or the only Truths, and cannot in good conscience tell another man that his Truths are wrong. God could tell me that a stone is white, tell you that the same stone is black, and in His greater understanding - both could be equally true. I see that same duality and uncertainty reflected in science and the world everyday. Scientists, by and large, are rarely atheists. Particles are waves, everything is relative, nothing is certain, and maybe in God's eyes, stones really can be both black and white. Without God's full understanding, I can only accept the Truths he gives me. Without seeing into another's heart, I can't deny their willingness to do the same. If those appear to be different Truths, I can never be quite certain the apparent contradictions aren't just a result of my limited understanding. Like Adam, I know only what I've been told, and I know I haven't been told everything. Fortunately, faith is not about certainty. I believe that I can get everything wrong, and He will make everything right. I believe the Hindu, Muslim, and Jew can get everything wrong, and He will make everything right. I believe the many different Truths, in ways beyond our ken, can be brought into a single Truth by His deeper, infinite understanding. I believe God's love is for everyone, not a select few, and every path, whether right or wrong in this temporal now, is a part of His plan, visible only with His patience. How can this be possible? Obviously, I don't know, nor do I feel I need to know. Because I don't believe faith has ever been about certainty. Faith is about trust. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Opeth, none of the verses that you have stated here have been taken in their context and none of them, despite your understanding, are saying that salvation comes through our obeying the Law or through faith in Christ plus our obeying the Law. Reading and study must always be done in context so as to avoid inadvertant misinterpretation." - With all due respect, they have been taken in context. You did not address, what the bible says, not what I say. You, like so many other Christians are confused about what Paul was talking about with regards to the law. Didn't you read the above passage? Tell me how that was taken out of context...please do...I have been where you were at...I was stubborn and didn't want to change. What is sin? Didn't you read it? Do you not believe that to sin is to transgress the laws of God? Do you think that is something that I wrote or want you to believe in? It is what the bible states, not me. What you are not getting is this...it is not your law keeping that saves you. If you read the scriptures that I quoted with an open and objective mind and if you are truly being called, you would understand that the law that is God's law is fulfilled by love, the love that can only be obtained through the spirit of God. And when that occurs it is not YOUR law keeping that saves you, oh no, you are mistaken. It is the gift of the Saviour...His Holy Spirit that comes inside you and KEEPS the SPIRITUAL LAW of God...not you keeping man-made laws (which included the laws of Moses)... and I quote...John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him." so God will abide in yourself, don't you think that with God living within your heart He will keep His own laws?...for without God living in your heart, keeping of any law is useless. Luke 16:15-17 "And He said unto them, "Ye are they who justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God" Without God in your heart you are an abomination, quite clear to me. (continuing) talking about God's spiritual law now... "The Law and the Prophets were until John. Since that time the Kingdom of God (the gospel btw) is preached, and every man presseth into it." and now the clincher... "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than one title of the law to fail." No, God will not let his spiritual laws = his love to fail you after you have repented and accepted his son as your saviour. Simple, not confusing. One has to remember that the bible is like a jigsaw puzzle. It is not intended to be read straight through to understand it. It is written the way it is for God's purpose, for the ones He is calling now. Christ even told his followers that much of what he preached was not for the masses to understand, that is why he spoke in puzzles or what is called parables. If he wanted everyone to understand He would of spoken it straight forward. But don't take my word for it...Matt 13:10-12 "And the disciples came and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?" He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given." and if you would continue on in Matt, verses 13-17, and if you understand that God is speaking to us today the same way...it is not for the majority to know now. He is not trying to save the world NOW. Here is key verse to support what I just posted...John 6:45 "It is written in the Prophets: `And they shall all be taught by God.' Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned from the Father cometh unto Me. - Did you get the key point? they shall ALL - everyone of us...taught be whom? A preacher? A priest? A Rabbi? No, taught by GOD Himself. Ther will be no confusion when that takes place during the second ressurection. Remember... It is GOD inside you that keeps the spiritual laws of His. If there were no spiritual law of God there would be no such thing as a sin. You cannot define sin, only the Bible can and I showed you what it said. "God's plan and message are simple and run through the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments." - Of course it is, repent from your SINS, what is sin? The transgression of the LAWS of God...accept Christ as your saviour and you will then receive the Holy Spirit who will provide you with knowledge, spiritual knowledge of what sin is and what sin is not and God will keep the law for you, because of God's LOVE for you and His abiding inside of you. Very simple, indeed. Not confusing, Satan is the author of confusion. The true church is in agreement. "The truth that you seem to have arrived at is that truth = obeying the Law for righteousness. The truth that I see is Christ alone, as He has fulfilled the Law on our behalf. The entirety of scripture validates this." - if you read my above remarks you will see that you misunderstood what I posted. It is not YOU obeying the laws in order to be saved...why do you think that Christ states that people call out his name, but they do not OBEY Him? Believing in a false gospel!! Gal 1:6-7 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel.For this is not another; but there are some who trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ." Jeez, that was happening already then, could you imagine how perveted the gospel has become with Satan deceiving the WHOLE WORLD (Rev 1:10) since this was written? I will wrap it up with a little something from Mark. Here is where if one is truly called by the lord, they will understand what this is all about... Mark 7:6-8 "He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.Therefore, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' Now get this... For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold to the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other like things ye do." Laying aside the commandment of God and holding onto the traditions of men...I could go into a whole other segment about this (Christmas, Easter, Sunday as the Sabbath) etc...Doctrines of men (our LAWS), or the LAW of God... So there are Christians worshipping in vain because they don't obey God...why? Because God is not living inside their hearts and therefore his LOVE which includes the knowledge of His Spiritual LAW is not understood. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 02:43 PM).] |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
"For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:13 Okay, Opeth, this is the verse that you wanted me to address. May we read it in its full context so that we have the frame of reference that is needed for correct interpretation? Romans 2 11:For one man is not different from another before God. 12: All those who have done wrong without the law will get destruction without the law: and those who have done wrong under the law will have their punishment by the law; 13: For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers: 14: For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves; 15: Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval; 16: In the day when God will be a judge of the secrets of men, as it says in the good news of which I am a preacher, through Jesus Christ. 17: But as for you who have the name of Jew, and are resting on the law, and take pride in God, 18: And have knowledge of his desires, and are a judge of the things which are different, having the learning of the law, 19: In the belief that you are a guide to the blind, a light to those in the dark, 20: A teacher of the foolish, having in the law the form of knowledge and of what is true; 21: You who give teaching to others, do you give it to yourself? you who say that a man may not take what is not his, do you take what is not yours? 22: You who say that a man may not be untrue to his wife, are you true to yours? you who are a hater of images, do you do wrong to the house of God? 23: You who take pride in the law, are you doing wrong to the honour of God by behaviour which is against the law? 24: For the name of God is shamed among the Gentiles because of you, as it is said in the holy Writings. 25: It is true that circumcision is of use if you keep the law, but if you go against the law it is as if you had it not. 26: If those who have not circumcision keep the rules of the law, will it not be credited to them as circumcision? 27: And they, by their keeping of the law without circumcision, will be judges of you, by whom the law is broken though you have the letter of the law and circumcision. 28: The true Jew is not one who is only so publicly, and circumcision is not that which may be seen in the flesh: 29: But he is a Jew who is a secret one, whose circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 3 1: How then is the Jew better off? or what profit is there in circumcision? 2: Much in every way: first of all because the words of God were given to them. 3: And if some have no faith, will that make the faith of God without effect? 4: In no way: but let God be true, though every man is seen to be untrue; as it is said in the Writings, That your words may be seen to be true, and you may be seen to be right when you are judged. 5: But if the righteousness of God is supported by our wrongdoing what is to be said? is it wrong for God to be angry (as men may say)? 6: In no way: because if it is so, how is God able to be the judge of all the world? 7: But if, because I am untrue, God being seen to be true gets more glory, why am I to be judged as a sinner? 8: Let us do evil so that good may come (a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made), because such behaviour will have its right punishment. 9: What then? are we worse off than they? In no way: because we have before made it clear that Jews as well as Greeks are all under the power of sin; 10: As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness; 11: Not one who has the knowledge of what is right, not one who is a searcher after God; 12: They have all gone out of the way, there is no profit in any of them; there is not one who does good, not so much as one: 13: Their throat is like an open place of death; with their tongues they have said what is not true: the poison of snakes is under their lips: 14: Whose mouth is full of curses and bitter words: 15: Their feet are quick in running after blood; 16: Destruction and trouble are in their ways; 17: And of the way of peace they have no knowledge: 18: There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19: Now, we have knowledge that what the law says is for those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all men may be judged by God: 20: Because by the works of the law no man is able to have righteousness in his eyes, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21: But now without the law there is a revelation of the righteousness of God, to which witness is given by the law and the prophets; 22: That is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all those who have faith; and one man is not different from another, 23: For all have done wrong and are far from the glory of God; 24: And they may have righteousness put to their credit, freely, by his grace, through the salvation which is in Christ Jesus: 25: Whom God has put forward as the sign of his mercy, through faith, by his blood, to make clear his righteousness when, in his pity, God let the sins of earlier times go without punishment; 26: And to make clear his righteousness now, so that he might himself be upright, and give righteousness to him who has faith in Jesus. As you can see by reading this in context God is building up to the fact that all men, Jew and Gentile alike are all accountable to God, whether they were the Jews who had the Law given to them or whether they were the Gentiles without having known the Law, and that the Jew has no greater claim before God for having been given the Law if he doesn't live by it, and that those who can be justified in His sight, under the Law, are only those who perform it (and as we've seen elsewhere, it is performed by keeping it to perfection, which no one except Christ has ever done). God concludes in Romans 3:10 -20 that none do righteousness and then in Romans 3:21-26, God finally sums up by reavealing His solution for our problem. Time nor space would allow for a disection of and then an "in context" study of all that you have proposed. So I hope that this at least sheds a bit of light on the danger of taking one verse from one place and then another from another place and building a theology in that manner. An honest study of any verse must be done in the setting of all that comes before and after it. You have to determine who was being spoken to, what covenant were those being spoken to living under when the words were spoken, as well as a detrmination of the theme of the particular book or chapter where the verses are found. Most of Christ's preaching, of course, was done to the Jews who were living under the old covenant, the covenant of Law. His main purpose was to expose to them their utter inability to make themselves acceptable in God's sight by performance of the Law. That was His purpose in "upping the anty", so to speak, by telling them, for instance, that it is not only the one who actually commits murder that is a murderer, but also the one who hates his brother. He wanted the Law to have its perfect work in them, that is, making them realize that they could never be good enough, and then see their need for a savior. True, Christ often spoke in parables, but it would be erroneous to conclude that He spoke that way anywhere in the Bible than where it explicitly states that He did. One more point: sin is not merely breaking God's Law. Sin was in the world before He gave the Law to Moses. Listen to this: 17: For, if by the wrongdoing of one, death was ruling through the one, much more will those to whom has come the wealth of grace and the giving of righteousness, be ruling in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. 18: So then, as the effect of one act of wrongdoing was that punishment came on all men, even so the effect of one act of righteousness was righteousness of life for all men. 19: Because, as numbers of men became sinners through the wrongdoing of one man, even so will great numbers get righteousness through the keeping of the word of God by one man. 20: And the law came in addition, to make wrongdoing worse; but where there was much sin, there was much more grace: 21: That, as sin had power in death, so grace might have power through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The Law was given to make wrongdoing worse! Sin came into the world by Adam, and therefore all sinned, even those who lived before the Law. God wanted people to see that they were sinful and just how sinful they were and gave them the Law to prove to them that they couldn't do it. That always was and always will be the purpose of the Law. When a person believes on Christ for salvation, the Spirit of Christ comes to dwell within the believer. Not only are they eternally saved and secure, they have an inheritance of heavenly wealth living within them. The old person that they were has been crucified with Christ on the cross. Christ makes the believer a new creation in Him. As we enjoy intimate fellowship with Christ, and appropriate by faith His all sufficiency to live this life, He will actually live His life through the believer. And this is all of Him. The only time we can fail and fall into sin is when we take our focus off Him and try to live the godly life in our own strength. In fact, we are told that whatever is not of faith is sin. If I'm not relying on Christ for my performance, I am sinning, even if the deeds in and of themselves are good, right and honorable. I have been taking the time to give scripture in context so that it may be rightly understood. You have consistently done just the opposite, taking a verse here and a verse there, always out of its context, and then accused me of being deceived in my understanding. You have not presented your case convincingly to me that I am buying into a lie of false Christian doctrine. I simply ask you to honestly read all that I have written, address each verse, and tell me where my understanding is faulty, as I have attempted to do with your presentations. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I have read the entirity of these passages many times. It is without a doubt in my mind that you would not change your ways of thinking even if I painstakingly went over every part of these passages, just as those Jews of Christ's time would not change the way that they believed the scripture and they were surely convinced that Christ was taking it out of context. I will sum it up for you. Paul was explaining the differences between the law (old laws, man's law, etc) of the jews and gentiles and their attempts in keeping those laws with the spiritual law of God, which if the Lord and God abide in them, will help them grow and understand and keep the law because of their love of the lord. To sin is to break the laws of God. The bible says so. If sin is to break the laws of God, there must be laws that Christians must abide by and would willingly do so because they accepted Jesus, love their God, and God's spirit abides in their hearts providing guidance, strength and understanding. Christ spoke of His Kingdom and that the Kingdom of God was at hand - that was the gospel. A Kingdom has a King and people will obey their King. How do people obey their King without law? There must be laws that the people will abide by. Without laws their is no Kingdom, there is only Anarchy and chaos. God is not trying to save the world today. Some of you who read this may "get it" - then will know that you are being called. If not, don't fret it. Many will die and be "taught by GOD" when the second ressurection occurs. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-07-2002 08:38 AM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
PS Denise - I was once where you are now. Remember how Christ told the rich man that he had to give up everything and pick up his own cross to follow? It is the same today. The true Christian will have to sacrifice much, very much, even family members if they do not believe. That is why Christ spoke of turning father against mother and husband against wives. There is no easy way in becoming a true follower of Christ. This could mean that one would have to give up their position in their church and actually forsake their false church. To completely change their lives "rock your world" Christ will do. It is not an easy path, as Christ said that the path was narrow and the gate was wide...that is what He was talking about. Not that most won't be saved, most will...but for the few being called today to prophecise his TRUE message, it is for us a narrow path. Myself, I am at crossroad. I know that logically there are only two answers for me. 1. That I was (unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it) one of the very few called by God to prophecise his TRUE message. And if so, I believe I am failing Him. And if I do fail Him, my fate will be the Lake of Fire, where I will suffer the second and final death. 2. What was revealed to me is no different than what was revealed to others in the sense that it was conjured inside one's own mind. If that is the case, then I know for a fact that christianity is bogus just like the rest of the world's religions. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Opeth, I'm so sorry for you that you are living under such condemnation and fear that if you fail in your efforts that you will be assigned to the lake of fire. God's message is simple: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and will not come into condemnation, but has passed from death unto life." I have asked God to give me a clean slate in my mind, wipe out any erroneous teachings based on the understandings of man (which can always be fallible). Christianity is not about doctrine (which has done more to divide people than to proclaim Christ), it is about Christ and what He has freely made available to all men through the New Covenant of grace. If one believes that Jesus is God's Christ, then he will not come into condemnation, period, no matter his failings in this life, no matter his correct or erroneous doctrine. He is our blessed hope, and not hope in the sense of "maybe" but "certainty", producing a trust undergirded by His faithfulness. The Book of Hebrews makes for profitable study in the differences between the Old and New Covenants. It can do nothing but bless the soul of all who read it and come to the understanding of all that it is saying. I hope that you come to realize that rest that He has already given you. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Denise, I appreciate your caring, but don't fret for me. I do not go around worrying about any of this. I don't believe in traditional christianity and will never partake in any of its doings. As I told you, I was there, where you are now. I didn't ask for the revelations that I received, nope, never wanted them. I was happy just living the life as a one of a million christian men, going to church, celebrating Easter, Christmas, etc...It was not like I just got up one morning and said, "I am going to prove this is all wrong." Either God's true Spirit moved me to begin seeking knowledge of His word, or it is all bogus and was formulated in my own mind... but then if it was formulated in my own mind, how many others from the thousands of years in the past to the present, formulated their own beliefs of what God expects from us? And how many of those beliefs became accepted as fact and interpreted through the bible as fact? The early church fathers, their beliefs, from their own mind? This goes back to the whose truth is true issue. There is no doubt in my mind that if Christianity is the true religion, just about the entirity of those worshipping Christ are worshipping in vain through a false church preaching a perverted gospel deceived by Satan appearing as a minister of righteiousness. But don't be upset about that because those followers are not being called and God is not trying to save them at this time. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-07-2002 11:02 AM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
False Christianity based on tradition of men, not the commandment of God. 2Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts (also translate as pleasure/convenience). And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned toward fables." Sound Doctrine - The spirtitual laws of God = 10 Commandments, God's Holy Days. teachers - Today's theologians, preachers, priests, etc...equaling the scribes and pharisees of Christ's time. turning from the truth - Loving their Lord through obeying Him and turning from sin. turning towards fables - pagan customs, Christmas, Easter, Sunday worshipping, immortal soul doctrine, etc. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Opeth, Below is my understanding of these terms, and thus my understanding of the verse is vastly different than yours. Sound Doctrine = Any doctrine that points to the all-sufficiency of Christ. teachers = teachers turning from the truth = taking one's focus off of Christ and His all-sufficiency. turning towards fables = Anything that is not sound doctrine (see above). But then since you have been where I am, I'm sure you know that already. I'm just listing my interpretation for others who may wish to see another way to see things than just the way you understand something to be. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
but those are just generalities, Denise. You seem quite interested. How about us going from point A to get to point B. One can't get from point B from point D. So let me ask you this. Christ said that in vain do they worship me, believing in the doctrines of men. What do you think he meant by that? Who do you think he was speaking to? To me, it is clear that he was talking about our time. That there are Christians worshiping him in vain believing in doctrines of men. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-07-2002 12:28 PM).] |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Opeth, you will have to supply me with the verse so that I may go read it in context to determine who was being spoken to and in relation to what and then I will be able to give you my considered opinion. Thanks. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
False Christianity Mark 7:6-8 “He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.Therefore, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold to the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other like things ye do." A dual prophecy for not only the people of Christ’s time, but for ours, which will be proved by other biblical verses. 2Cor 11:13-15 “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.” Who are these false apostles of today? Satan appears as a minister of righteousness = an angel of light. These false teachers under Satan will preach that Christ is the saviour, they are Christians. Matt 24:4-5,11 “And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many.” God expects us to search His words and put the pieces of the puzzle together in order to know the truth. If you are not called, you won’t be getting this. No doubt, that Christ is talking about our time along with His own. Come sheep, follow me, I preach Christ, yes He is God, learn my manmade doctrines, it is okay. Just believe in Jesus, nothing else matters. In Galations we read that the false doctrines of men have already crept into the church. Gal 1:6-7 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel. For this is not another; but there are some who trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ.” It is clear that the false church, which is called the Mother Beast and her harlot offshoots in Revelations was already at work during this time… 2Thes 2:7-8 “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—“ This is to take place during the Day of the Lord as prophesized in Revelations, but there is more… Jude 1:3-4 “Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men who have crept in unawares, who were foreordained of old for this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Certain men already creeping into the church perverting the truth…so long ago…is it any wonder why we read in Revelations 12:9 “…Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD…” Except for his little flock… Luke 12:32 “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.” I take that as the entire world, all of the world’s religions, except for His little flock. In 3John 1:9-10, we can see that certain men, who were the leaders of their local Christian churches were already changing and turning away from Christ… “I wrote unto the church, but Diotrephes, who loveth to have preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Therefore if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words. And not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth those who would, and casteth them out of the church.” True Christians being cast out of the church…already…man…is it any wonder just how far false Christianity has grown throughout the ages…Jesus forseen this and in Luke 6:46, we read… “And why call ye Me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not the things which I say?” Lord, Lord, I believe in you! “Ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command you. “ (John 14:14) “If ye love Me, keep my commandment(S).” (John 15:14) And what commandments are those? Why of course the 10 commandments. Christ himself created the 10 commandments. But the Jews of Christ day were not keeping them in their hearts, strictly only in a legal sense. Paul spoke of this in great detail. Christ came to magnify the commandments, not do away with them. As we read in 2 John 1:5-6… “And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning: that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it” Love = spiritual law = the 10 commandments of God (Jesus). If he abides in your heart, the Spirit of God will show you and provide you the knowledge and keep the law for you. I have now gone in full circle. There is so much more evidence…I will finish with Revelation…22:12-14 “Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.“ You are blessed if you DO HIS COMMANDMENTS. Why call him Lord if you don’t do the things that He says? You have to of course know what He says for you to do. It must be the same for each Christian, for there is only one Spirit of God. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Opeth said: "1. That I was (unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it) one of the very few called by God to prophecise his TRUE message. And if so, I believe I am failing Him. And if I do fail Him, my fate will be the Lake of Fire, where I will suffer the second and final death." --But you fail Him precisely because you keep saying that you were called. A surgeon doesn't fix people by saying, "I'm a surgeon, I can fix you." He undertakes the operation. Throughout this thread, you use words and phrasings that strike me as arrogant (It takes one to know one. ), but I have to ask, are you a native born American citizen? I've met European scholars who speak like you and I've met Russian scholars who speak like you, but American scholars usually refrain from this (at least in textual criticism). Honestly, when you said:"Easy to understand, can't get this one misinterpreted" I dropped my jaw. I thought, where have you been the last thity years? Perhaps, you were being facetious and I missed that? This in no way is meant to denigrate anything you say but it would help me to understand why you say it the way you do. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm big on context and contingency, and you're, from my point of view, bluntness might be better explained by cultural difference. Then again, maybe not. ====================== "2. What was revealed to me is no different than what was revealed to others in the sense that it was conjured inside one's own mind. If that is the case, then I know for a fact that christianity is bogus just like the rest of the world's religions." --Logically, the first sentence in no way leads to the second. It's a possible analogy but not a logical proof. ======================== --Another problem I see in the way you speak is a misunderstanding of your medium. You're writing in an internet forum, this is not the same as a school, not the same as a pulpit, not the same as a uniform. You assert authority without the context of authority (I've seen this done at other websites and it drives me up a wall). The only thing you have to make your point is the words you use and the gradual image created by the words you have used, you can't rely on the "I know" factor. --Don't belittle the way you make the message because the message is of urgent importance. --Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not saying you can't assert something (Denise asserts, I assert, everybody asserts), but then the real work begins in backing it up. You don't back something up by arguing 'my years of study', 'my objectivity', or whatever, you back it up by doing the work of persuasion. As long as you sprinkle your back ups with phrases like the above and allusions to an elite chosen few (I know I'm in the minority, I know people will disagree, and, yes, even earlier phrases like 'intellectually superior'), you're just setting yourself up for a fall. --The above statements I've quoted would indicate that you don't want to fall. Brad |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Mark 7:6-8 “He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.Therefore, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold to the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other like things ye do." A dual prophecy for not only the people of Christ’s time, but for ours, which will be proved by other biblical verses. Again, in context, Opeth: Christ was speaking to the scribes and Pharisees who had watered down the pure and exacting demand of God's Law while at the same time priding themselves on their obedience to the their watered down version of the Law, excusing their own guilt and failure, while at the same time judging those around them who were not living up to the standards of their watered down version of the Law (traditions of men). Their worship was in vain because they weren't being honest before God, for if they were, they would have come to the conclusion that they were nothing but sinners themselves, no better than the ones that they had judged. If they had let the Law of God have its perfect work in them, they would have come to no other conclusion than that they could not perfectly obey (which was required for its fulfillment, as we've seen before.) and they would have come to realize their need of a savior (the purpose of the Law, as we have already seen plainly stated in scripture, but for purposes of clarification we can read in Galatians 3:22-25: But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law.) 2Cor 11:13-15 “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.” Who are these false apostles of today? Satan appears as a minister of righteousness = an angel of light. These false teachers under Satan will preach that Christ is the saviour, they are Christians. Most likely, from "clues" in the chapter, particularly beginning in verse 20 they were the Judaizers who attempted to put the Christians under the Law if they wanted to be really right with God: 2 Corinthians 11:20-23: For you bear with anyone if he enslaves you, if he devours you, if he takes advantage of you, if he exalts himself, if he hits you in the face. To my shame, I must say that we have been weak by comparison, But in whatever respect anyone else is bold (I speak in foolishness), I am just as bold myself. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they servants of Christ (I speak as if insane)? I more so; in far more labors, in far more inprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. I guess you could compare them today to either the religious person who has never actually come to faith in Christ and believes that his adherance to the Law is what makes them right with God, or you could possibly compare them to those who have believed on Christ and are true believers but they have one foot in the Old Covenant( = what must I do to earn God's blessings?) and one foot in the New Covenant (= Wow! Look at all that God has freely given me!)From the word "false", I'd have to go with the first possibility. Matt 24:4-5,11 “And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many.” God expects us to search His words and put the pieces of the puzzle together in order to know the truth. If you are not called, you won’t be getting this. No doubt, that Christ is talking about our time along with His own. Come sheep, follow me, I preach Christ, yes He is God, learn my manmade doctrines, it is okay. Just believe in Jesus, nothing else matters. Of course God wants us to search His word, how else does one learn the truth that He has revealed. Now, how do you make the connection between Christ saying that there will be false Christs and that one of those false Christs will be proclaiming that Christ is God, believe in Jesus, nothing else matters and learning manmade doctines? First of all true Christians do not preach "nothing else matters". They preach Christ crucified for salvation. They preach that we have died to the Law so that we may be married to Christ. Christ comes to dwell within, live within the believer, and this is all of God. As we continually grow in the knowledge of His love and grace and keep our focus on HIM, we come to the place where we can realize His very divine life living through us. I'd be really careful in your estimation that such a person, called apart and sanctified by God, all of His doing, is the embodiment of anti-Christ. That sounds like nothing less than blasphemy, to me. In Galations we read that the false doctrines of men have already crept into the church. Gal 1:6-7 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel. For this is not another; but there are some who trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ.” “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel." Did you read this part that I bolded here, Opeth? Have you really read this? Perhaps you need to read it once again. It is clear that the false church, which is called the Mother Beast and her harlot offshoots in Revelations was already at work during this time… Again, Opeth, in context: Those who were troubling the Galations and perverting the Gospel of Christ were the Judaizers. This has not a thing to do with the Beast and the harlot of Revelation, although it would not surprise me that the Beast and the harlot would indeed be the "descendants" of false professors and/or legalists who have never really come to faith in Christ. 2Thes 2:7-8 “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—“ This is to take place during the Day of the Lord as prophesized in Revelations, but there is more… Jude 1:3-4 “Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men who have crept in unawares, who were foreordained of old for this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Certain men already creeping into the church perverting the truth…so long ago…is it any wonder why we read in Revelations 12:9 “…Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD…” Except for his little flock… Luke 12:32 “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.” I take that as the entire world, all of the world’s religions, except for His little flock. In 3John 1:9-10, we can see that certain men, who were the leaders of their local Christian churches were already changing and turning away from Christ… “I wrote unto the church, but Diotrephes, who loveth to have preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Therefore if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words. And not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth those who would, and casteth them out of the church.” True Christians being cast out of the church…already…man…is it any wonder just how far false Christianity has grown throughout the ages…Jesus forseen this and in Luke 6:46, we read… You take the fact that there have been (and always will be, no doubt about that) people who misuse the grace of God even deliberately, to live a life of sin to be an indictment against all those who believe that salvation comes through faith in Christ? That doesn't even make sense, Opeth. We have all been guilty of abusing God's grace to one extent or another. As we grow in the wonderful and ever deepening awareness of His grace and love to us, we will be transformed through the renewing of our minds. But it doesn't happen through hanging the Law in front of your face. That just keeps a person bound up in their sin. And don't forget, there is the law of reap and sow....that will never change. God is never mocked. If I go up and smack someone in the face, more than likely I will be smacked back. It doesn't mean that I will perish in the Lake of Fire though. “And why call ye Me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not the things which I say?” Lord, Lord, I believe in you! *sigh* Context, Opeth, context: These were the ones who came before the judgment seat boasting of all that they had accomplished for Christ through their works, not trusting in Him for their salvation. His reply, "Depart from me, I never knew you." It was their lack of faith, not the presence of works that determined whether He knew them. They had plenty of works. What they lacked was faith. If they had faith, they would have performed their works from pure motives, but it still would have been their faith that produced their good deeds. As it was, all they had was works. “Ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command you. “ (John 14:14) “If ye love Me, keep my commandment(S).” (John 15:14) Why did you add the (s)? The correct rendering is command. In context He is speaking of loving one another. And yes, we are His friends when we live in love. And what commandments are those? Why of course the 10 commandments. Christ himself created the 10 commandments. But the Jews of Christ day were not keeping them in their hearts, strictly only in a legal sense. Paul spoke of this in great detail. Christ came to magnify the commandments, not do away with them. As we read in 2 John 1:5-6… “And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning: that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it” Love = spiritual law = the 10 commandments of God (Jesus). If he abides in your heart, the Spirit of God will show you and provide you the knowledge and keep the law for you. I have now gone in full circle. There is so much more evidence…I will finish with Revelation…22:12-14 “Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.“ You are blessed if you DO HIS COMMANDMENTS. Why call him Lord if you don’t do the things that He says? You have to of course know what He says for you to do. It must be the same for each Christian, for there is only one Spirit of God. Christ's command is to love. Christ's Law is the Law of Liberty. Christ gives the believer a new heart to replace the heart of stone and moves right on in and lives His life, His divine life, through these humble earthen vessels to His glory. Christ writes the law in our hearts, Christ gives us the desire to obey him. Christ does it all. The Spirit does come and live within, I agree, and He lives out His life through us, which is in accordance with His will and we will see that working out in us as we yield to Him. That doesn't mean that we will no longer sin, and it doesn't mean that we focus on Law, it means we keep putting our focus back on Him and trust Him to be our all in all. You would do well to re-study the very Scriptures that you have been handling so carelessly. You will never come to the truth until you have the desire to divide the Word of Truth accurately and don't read into it with preconceived notions to try to prove or defend such positions. You do the very thing that you accuse Christians of doing. I have taken the time to render everything that you have said in context to help those who may be confused by your inaccurate handling of scripture and to refute your assertions based on that inaccurate handling. I will not spend any more time on this type of presentation by you. If you want to study the word, honestly, then perhaps further discussion can be had. Until then, I see that continuing on the way it has been going, would be pointless. [This message has been edited by Denise (03-07-2002 11:46 PM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
With all due respect Denise, this is not an issue of "Judai-zing." It did not suprise me that you took that defense. For the past 15 or so years, that is probably the number one defense that preachers and priests have used to defend their beliefs that there is no law - Judaising (sp?). That is what you keep telling me or at least appear to be telling me. I still don't get how their cannot be laws of God with sin in existence, since SIN is the transgression of the LAWS of GOD. Jesus is a King, he has a Kingdom, it is in the hearts of true Christians. A Kingdom must have subjects and those subjects must obey their King. How could a subject obey their King without laws? No laws, no Kingdom, only anarchy and chaos (Satan btw is the author of chaos.) Chaotic: That's a sin! No, it is not. Yes, it is. Celebrate Easter! Easter is Pagan. Worhsip on Sunday. Saturday is the true day. It doesn't matter what day, and so on and so on and so on... One Spirit, One Church, believing the same. As the OT was prophesized for the people of Jesus' time and our own, so is the NT prophecised for our time now and the end to come. Let me ask you this Denise... Did Christ's death on the cross save all of those who believe in Him? |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
To Brad... 1. good point, I doubt my "calling" that is why I state that I am. I have had sooooo many people tell me I am wrong about all of this, so I am failing not only because of what you pointed out, but for other reasons too. Yes, I am a U.S. citizen. I am in the U.S. Navy. I have held positions with much responsibilities and authority. I don't know. I can't remember what I said that about. To me, it was easy to understand. I forget that many who read these posts of mine won't get it because they are not being called, so maybe I put it that way because I am hoping that someone out there "gets it." I am a blunt person. However, I am animated person when I speak. I am a designated Master Training Specialist in the Navy - I use much tone, body language, sarcasm, etc...one can't see that on the Internet. I am just a "young child" with regards to my abilities as an Internet communicator. I also type rather fast and don't always correctly get my message across baecause of that. 2. Not logical to you, but logical to me because of this reason - I know that I got down on my knees with humility and shame and asked to be shown the truth - and the truth that came to me is said by the majority of those of whom I shared it with - not to be true. Now knowing that there are others like me who have done the same thing - hundreds of thousands probably - and each came away with what they know in their hearts to be true. Logically, either only ONE is true or ALL are false. Or logically, there is more than ONE God. Because if there was only ONE God he would have only ONE truth. That is logical to me. Funny you mentioned, school and uniform. I instruct and where a uniform. As for asserting authority, the Bible clearly states that the truth will be known by babes, not by Theologians. Christ's apostles included a fisherman and a mathmatician. As for backing up what I posted. I have done so by using the only back up source needed in debating this issue - the Bible. Example The bible says that SIN is the transgressions of the LAWS of God. With that being quoted, I can say that there are LAWS of God to abide to. Again, to me it is so easy to understand this..."scary easy." And when I see people like Denise not "getting it" - it is even more scary to me, because from reading her posts, there is no doubt that she is an educationg and intelligent person who wants to love the lord. As for being the "elite few" - I don't look at it that way. The prophets of the Bible never looked at that way either. I don't take any pride or any "I'm better than you attitude" for what revealed to me. In fact, it is the opposite. I only said that to make a point. Of course, on the Internet, I am not doing a good job getting my message across. As for the "intellectually superior" remark...it was in jest. I appreciate you taking the time to write me. You handled this issue with class |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Here is a sample of how I came to believe the way that I do. Now please, if you are going to read this do not "mix" issues. When growing up as a Catholic attending a Catholic school, it was taught that eating pork, certain types of crustaceans, or what the Bible deems as "uclean foods" was against the Jewish law and therefore Jews still did not eat any of those such foods. However, the priests and nuns who taught this also showed us that in the NT that law was done away with and cited ACT 11:7-18 (Peter's Dream/Vision) as proof. Later in my life as a young "born again" Christian, it was taught the same way by the Protestant church/es that I attended. Now as any of you reading know, I had a turning point in my life, where I started questioning answers given to me by Biblical authorities ~ my calling period. I sought to find out what was separating the myriads of denominations who were supposed to be on the "same page" with regards to understanding truths. Did Peter's dream tell the newly found Christian faith that they could eat unclean foods? Absolutely not! Acts 11:7-8 "And I heard a voice saying unto me, `Arise, Peter; slay and eat.' But I said, `Not so, Lord, for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.' I reread this and thought to myself...This dream occured long after Christ's death. Christ spent much time with Peter and no doubt they ate together on numerous occasions. Peter was full of the Holy Spirit after Christ's death. Yet, Peter still did not ever eat any unclean food as of that night! Christ would certainly would of told Peter that this law is now done away with or the Holy Spirit once dwelling in Peter would of made it clear, but still Peter did not touch unclean foods long after Christ's death... But the dream and this passage has nothing to do with unclean foods...continue... Acts 11:9 "But the voice answered me again from heaven, `What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.' What did God cleanse...food? Is this about eating unclean foods? NO! Acts 11:11-18 "And behold, immediately three men had already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. And the Spirit bade me go with them,... No doubt the Spirit of God was in Peter's heart. "...doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house. And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house, who stood and said unto him, `Send men to Joppa and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter, Jewish converts! "...who shall tell thee words whereby thou and all of thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said, `John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.'If therefore God gave them the same gift as He did unto us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" Yes, Peter was thinking that salvation was only to the gentiles, the dream showed Peter that salvation was to ALL! "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." But don't take my word for it, Peter says so in the Bible exactly what that dream meant. Acts 10:28 "And he (Peter) said unto them, "Ye know that it is an unlawful thing for a man who is a Jew to keep company with or to come unto one of another nation. (key phrase) But God hath shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean." The dream had nothing to do with eating unclean foods, nothing at all. If one wants to provide truth that there are not any foods that God forbids us, they must find other biblical passages, because this one has nothing to do with it. We as mankind can inject our own opinions and thoughts to believe that Peter's dream could also mean unclean foods, but then we are adding something to the scriptures which just isn't there...and if we do that...where do we draw the line in adding meanings to passages? Now me, just a simple navy man can understand this, yet biblical scholars, the teachers of the faith cannot understand? [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-08-2002 10:46 AM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I think Denise's position is fairly clear to me. The old covenant was set aside for the new and no longer exists in the old form. If I grant her that assertion, everything else logically follows. Opeth's position is far less clear to me, beyond the fact he believes the old law still exists. Even if I grant that assertion, I still don't know where it leaves me. In all that's been said, I've read conflicting views on what that law means to him. A.) The OT law must be obeyed, else there is no salvation. B.) The OT law will be obeyed if you are truly saved. Under point A, salvation follows obedience. Under point B, obedience follows salvation. In both instances, the implication is that obedience is perfect. While I agree with Brad that proof and persuasion are necessary, I think those are the cart and the premise is the horse, and we travel farther if we keep them in the right order. Let's forget about proof for a minute. Can you clearly and succinctly just state what you believe to be the truth, Opeth? |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
The truth as in what? Please clarify your question. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Ron said, "I think Denise's position is fairly clear to me. The old covenant was set aside for the new and no longer exists in the old form." - To say that the OT was set aside for the NT is jaw-dropping for me to hear when coming from a Christian. The OT has much to do with the "end time" and our days that we live in now. Many prophesies in the OT are for us here and now. I believe it to be quite prejudicial against the Jews that the OT is thought of that way. But besides that...You all may not even know...we are all descendants of the Israelites, some actually physically and if being a Christian ~ spiritually too. "Opeth's position is far less clear to me, beyond the fact he believes the old law still exists." - The old law? What is the old law that you are talking about? I believe that the spiritual law exists and only the spiritual law. "A.) The OT law must be obeyed, else there is no salvation." - Incorrect. "B.) The OT law will be obeyed if you are truly saved." - What do you mean by OT law? The 10 Commandments, the laws of Moses, etc? I will try to explain it as simply as I can. 1. Jesus came to fullfill and magnify the laws of God. To proclaim that the Kingdom of God is at hand! The Gospel! But let's stick to the issue at hand. 2. Jesus The King of Kings, died and was ressurected and His Kingdom is in our hearts for now. 3. The Spirit of God/Jesus dwells in true Christians heart. 4. A King and Kingdom has laws that we must obey, otherwise their is no way we can do what Jesus' says to do. 5. The spiritual law = love = will be made known to those true Christians when God abides in the true Christian's heart and will keep the law for the Christian. 6. All true Christians are in agreement because they are under ONE Spirit. 7. Because the Christian loves God and accepting the LIVING Saviour into their hearts they will abide by the laws of God. 8. Those laws were summed up by Christ Himself ~ love your neighbor and your God = The 10 commandments. Any other law that Paul talks about has nothing to do with the spiritual law. In fact, if you read the quotes that I posted, it IS quite clear that Paul was speaking of the Spiritual Law and manmade laws. Once more, to SIN is to "transgress the LAWS of GOD." Without LAWS (spiritual) there cannot be SIN. Without SIN there is no need for salvation. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-08-2002 11:55 AM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
7. Because the Christian loves God and accepting the LIVING Saviour into their hearts they will abide by the laws of God. 8. Those laws were summed up by Christ Himself ~ love your neighbor and your God = The 10 commandments. That was the succinct part I was looking for, Opeth. You believe, then, that the Ten Commandments will be obeyed by Christians because they have Christ in their heart. Your position falls under point B, then, which is at least a little easier to grasp. Obedience follows salvation, and the obedience is the result of love, not fear. So far, and in spite of your seeming attempts to suggest otherwise, I don't disagree. Is the obedience perfect? What are the consequences if the obedience is less than perfect? Again, I'm not looking for proof, just a position I can understand. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Ron said, "Is the obedience perfect?" - No. However, as a Christian one should strive...EDIT: let me rephrase that...I Christian will be guided towards not sinning. Not that the "self" will strive. In other words, once a true Christian knows what a particular sin is, they will not practice at breaking it because God abiding in their hearts and mind will enable them not to....to do what Christ says. Each Christian has their own gifts, weaknesses, etc...that is where fellowship and studying on the Lord's word comes into play. "What are the consequences if the obedience is less than perfect?" - Ask for forgiveness...EDIT - Not to be confused with confession with a priest, but in their own minds and in private, their sorrow for sinning will suffice....If it is genuinine sorrow for sinning, of course one will be forgiven. PS - The spiritual law of God is not to be feared or looked upon as a burden (like the Scribes and Pharisees tried to make the commandments and other laws to be). It is a testimony of faith, in a Spiritual mind, and in that mind abides the Lord himself, and out of Love for God, one would want to keep. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-08-2002 02:42 PM).] |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Opeth, The Old Testament has not been set aside for the believer. The entire of Scripture is profitable for instruction in godly living as we yield to the Spirit’s leading in our lives and depend and rest on Him to perform that through us. What has been set aside is the Old Covenant contained in the Old Testament when one comes to faith in Christ and God’s New Covenant of Grace, clearly depicted, and beautifully so, in the Book of Hebrews. The Old Covenant can best be defined as God’s blessings come to man as man obeys the Law of God. The New Covenant can best be described as God’s blessings freely given, resulting in a heart of love toward God. Our sins have been forgiven, past, present and future, as well. It is a total and complete forgiveness, not one that is doled out in dribs and drabs, forgiven only when confession is made. There is only one thing that forgives sin in the sight of Almighty God…the shedding of blood, not confessing, not repenting, not striving to do better, none of that. Forgiveness comes only through the shedding of blood. If we aren’t fully persuaded that His shedding of blood on our behalf was sufficient, than where is hope? His sacrifice is the only hope that anyone has. And all God asks is that we take Him at His word and accept that salvation for ourselves. What could produce love in the human heart toward God better than that? And after all, it is our love that He desires. Also, the Law of God is right, holy, true and perfect and gives us a glimpse of His perfection. The Law of God will stand forever, that’s true, and will continue to perform its function…convicting man of sin and of his inability to perform its requirements perfectly and driving that person to the foot of the cross of Christ in recognition of his need for a savior. That is, has been and always will be the function of the Law. In your insistence that sin = violation of the 10 commandments, tell me then your understanding of sin in the Garden of Eden. There were no 10 commandments to obey or disobey. In a contextual reading (there’s that word again!) could you agree that their sin was the sin of unbelief in what God had told them? There would have been no sin if they had just taken God at His word, to my understanding, and that unbelief led them to sin. Also, the Bible clearly states, as I’ve mentioned before that “whatever is not of faith is sin”. ~ Acts 11:11-18 "And behold, immediately three men had already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. And the Spirit bade me go with them,... No doubt the Spirit of God was in Peter's heart. "...doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house. And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house, who stood and said unto him, `Send men to Joppa and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter, Jewish converts! "...who shall tell thee words whereby thou and all of thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said, `John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 'If therefore God gave them the same gift as He did unto us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" Yes, Peter was thinking that salvation was only to the gentiles, the dream showed Peter that salvation was to ALL! Actually, this is in context! (I just love study that is done in context! Truth can actually be ascertained that way!) And, of course, a correct rendering is possible that way, which you have done in this case, except for the one little mistake that you made. The revelation was that salvation was to be given to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews, hence Gentile converts! Peter had been thinking that salvation was only to the Jews, the dream showed Peter that salvation was being made available to ALL! I’m sure that you just inadvertently transposed those two groups in you explanation. And yes, I believe that Jesus' sacrifice saves all that believe. [This message has been edited by Denise (03-08-2002 01:54 PM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Denise, a quick response to this part of your last post. "Also, the Bible clearly states, as I’ve mentioned before that “whatever is not of faith is sin”." 1 John 3:4 states, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law." Now either the Bible contradicts itself, which if it does, throw out Christianity and believe in what you want, or to SIN is to transgress the LAW of God. Not the FAITH of God. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-08-2002 01:59 PM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
I also want to stop and answer your question about sin and the Garden of Eden. Excellent question, indeed. One that I went over many years back. Yes, the 10 commandments existed for as long as God existed. It was just that He did not "publish" them to His people until the time was right. Proof that God's laws (which were not made spiritual, but to only a few in the OT) were in existence. The 4th Commandment (Keep the Sabbath Holy) existed prior to the Mosaic laws. Exodus 16:4 "Then said the LORD unto Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may put them to the proof, whether they will walk in My law, or no." - The Law of God, the people never had Christ in their hearts at this time. Verse 5 "And it shall come to pass that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily." - Hmmm, now the 10 commandments have not been given yet, but God instructed them to gather twice the amount on the 6th day. Verse 23 "And he said unto them, "This is that which the LORD hath said: `Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the LORD. Bake that which ye will bake today, and boil what ye will boil; and that which remaineth over lay up for yourselves to be kept until the morning.'" - Now this was before the Mosaic laws. Verse 27 "And it came to pass that there went out some of the people on the seventh day to gather, and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, "How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws? See, for the LORD hath given you the Sabbath; therefore He giveth you on the sixth day the bread for two days. Abide ye every man in his place. Let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." The Laws of God are forever. The Sabbath was not just for the Jews. It wasn't the Jewish Sabbath it was God's Sabbath. Exodus 20:10 "but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Denise said, "And yes, I believe that Jesus' sacrifice saves all that believe." - It does not. His death does not save all those who believe. His LIFE does. A big difference, but it would take me off on a whole other tangent to explain it all. Let's read in Romans... Romans 15:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,... Let's stop right there. What did Christs' death do for everyone? Did it save the believers? No! It only reconciled ALL people with God. Reconcile: 1. To reestablish a close relationship between. 2. To settle or resolve. 3. To bring (oneself) to accept: He finally reconciled himself to the change in management. 4. To make compatible or consistent. God would have nothing to do with us at all until His Son's death. Now, God will establish a relationship with his subjects. We are saved by Christ's LIFE!!!! "...much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. It is right there in front you. Also, on a side note, a key word is in there and that word is "SHALL." Why? Interesting isn't it...that would take me onto the topic of being Born Again and whether we die we go sratight to heaven (which we don't)...Wow, that would take up many more pages and posts. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-08-2002 02:40 PM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
So, let me see if I've got everything straight, Opeth. You believe Jesus is the Christ. Welcome Him into your heart and you will be filled with a love of God. Hidden between your words, not explicitly said, is the implication you will also be filled with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Motivated by that love, and led by that guidance, you will try to lead your life as Christ would want. Again left unsaid but implicit, this in no way interferes with your free will. Ergo, you won't always succeed, but your failures will be forgiven (I'm assuming being filled with God makes anything but genuine sorrow impossible) and will not jeopardize your salvation. I know there's a lot in there that can be expounded upon, but is there anything that needs to be corrected? Or is that a fair summary? |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
As I have previously stated, Opeth, I will no longer be taking your out-of-context verses and rendering a contextual application. As everyone knows, the Bible can be used to back up any position that one wishes to espouse. Even Satan does that to propogate his lies. Engaging in semantics is another way to do that. "Being saved" or "salvation" encompasses the entire spectrum of the work that God does in the believer, from justification, reconcilitation, sanctification, right on through to glorification in the life to come. That being said, the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is the believer's salvation. I've never applied the notion of intelligence to myself. I tend to think of myself more as a practical, common sense oriented type of person, fully aware of my ability to misunderstand things, fully aware of the possibility that some concepts are just totally out of my grasp and I put no confidence in my intellect. Some topics that I have read in this forum have left me scratching my head, wishing I could participate, but not even being able to understand the basics of the topic at hand. But you seem to see me as intelligent and educated (high school, B average, commercial major, does that qualify?)and find it scarey that "I don't get it". Whatever level of intelligence that I do have, you insult with your "cat and mouse" tactics, your non-contextual handling of scripture and your bartering in semantics, prefaced, of course, with "all due respect". I'd rather dare to suggest, sir, that you do not think me that intelligent after all. I have clearly stated my beliefs in hoping to clear up popular misconceptions of Christianity. That was my only purpose for starting this thread. You are free, if you wish, to contribute. But please, do so in an honest fashion. State your beliefs. Present your reasons for why you hold those beliefs, and in this context, contextual scriptural evidence is the only valid proof of those beliefs. "Private" revelation from God that can't be backed up by a contextual rendering of scripture is not a revelation from God. That is how every false religion on the planet got started. God's plan of salvation is simple enough for a child to understand. It pleases God to use the "foolish of this world to confound the wise" and God is "well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe, for the foolishness of God is wiser than man and the weakness of God is stronger than man". Now that's my kind of God! He's not playing games with us. He makes it so simple that the so-called "wise" of this world just "don't get it". But He never stops calling to them. He's always waiting. Make no mistake about it, Opeth, I don't just seem to want to love the Lord. I do love Him with all my heart, with all my soul and with all my strength. But I only love Him because "He loved me first". I hope that you come to that realization for yourself. [This message has been edited by Denise (03-08-2002 09:24 PM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Denise said, "As I have previously stated, Opeth, I will no longer be taking your out-of-context verses and rendering a contextual application." - You asked me if the God's commandments existed prior to the Israelites receiving the 10 commandments. I provided you with biblical passages to prove that point - in context. You also answered my question about Christ's death saving sinners. I provided biblical passages that proved his LIFE saves us - in context. "As everyone knows, the Bible can be used to back up any position that one wishes to espouse." - I don't know that and don't believe that. I believe if one is truly called, they will understand only THE TRUTH under ONE SPIRIT. "Even Satan does that to propogate his lies." - Now here is where we are in agreement. Satan has deceived the whole world (Rev 12:9) and Christ's true flock is little. No doubt, Satan has set up false christian churches everywhere. "Engaging in semantics is another way to do that. "Being saved" or "salvation" encompasses the entire spectrum of the work that God does..." - Semantics? Oh no, the truth. The difference between false christianity and the truth. One could of said that of Christ and his followers. "I've never applied the notion of intelligence to myself. I tend to think of myself more as a practical, common sense oriented type of person, fully aware of my ability to misunderstand things, fully aware of the possibility that some concepts are just totally out of my grasp and I put no confidence in my intellect." - I feel the same way about myself. Practical, logical, common sensical. "Some topics that I have read in this forum have left me scratching my head, wishing I could participate, but not even being able to understand the basics of the topic at hand. But you seem to see me as intelligent and educated (high school, B average,..." - I don't get what your grade averages have to do with anything about what we are talking about. "...and find it scarey that "I don't get it". Whatever level of intelligence that I do have, you insult with your "cat and mouse" tactics, your non-contextual handling of scripture and your bartering in semantics, prefaced, of course, with "all due respect"." - That is your opinion. "I'd rather dare to suggest, sir, that you do not think me that intelligent after all. - I don't understand where this whole thing about your intelligence is coming from. It is not through intelligence that one will understand the truth. It is through a calling by God. I certainly had no biblical knowledge whatsoever when I first humbly got on my knees and prayed for direction...for guidance, for understanding. I sought to know God's way and the revelations given to me had nothing to do with my intelligence. The fact that you believe that I am taking biblical matters out of context has nothing to do with your intelligent level. It has only to do with "being called." "I have clearly stated my beliefs in hoping to clear up popular misconceptions of Christianity. That was my only purpose for starting this thread. You are free, if you wish, to contribute. But please, do so in an honest fashion."{/i] - In an honest fashion? I don't get you again. I have only been honest in what I have posted here about myself and my calling. [i] "State your beliefs. Present your reasons for why you hold those beliefs, and in this context, contextual scriptural evidence is the only valid proof of those beliefs. "Private" revelation from God that can't be backed up by a contextual rendering of scripture is not a revelation from God." - I have proven God's true meaning through biblical text. "That is how every false religion on the planet got started." - We agree again. False Christianity and all of its beliefs are held by the masses: Immortal soul, Easter, Christmas, Sunday worshipping, etc... "God's plan of salvation is simple enough for a child to understand." - YES! We agree again. To those whom he calls, it is so easy to understand. What you have explained to me (your beliefs) is so confusuing to me, always had been. That is why I cried on my knees to God those so many years ago. Every time I read what you post, what you call so easy for you to understand, is nothing but chaos to me. "It pleases God to use the "foolish of this world to confound the wise" and God is "well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe, for the foolishness of God is wiser than man and the weakness of God is stronger than man". Now that's my kind of God! He's not playing games with us. He makes it so simple that the so-called "wise" of this world just "don't get it"." - We agree again! Those wise preachers and theologians have been getting it wrong, then duping honest and sincere people for hundreds upon hundreds of years. Then along comes a nothing navy family man and He reveals His truth to little ol' me. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Opeth, Re-read what you have written to Brad. You brought up my intelligence and my education, I didn't, and then stated that it was scary that "I didn't get it." My mentioning my grade point average directly relates to those, no? (Retorical question, no need to answer) To my understanding, The TRUTH of God is his free offer of salvation to sinful man through the life, death and resurrection of His Messiah, Jesus Christ, and that is all of God, and totally sufficient in providing for man's need before a Holy God. Adding anything of man's efforts into the equation eviscerates God's plan. You have not clearly presented your understanding of God's plan of salvation. You have not clearly presented your understanding of God's TRUTH, particularly in the way that it differs from my understanding. You are not presenting your case honestly inasmuch as you are backing your beliefs with out-of-context verses. It seems to me that we both believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah). It seems we both believe that the Spirit indwells the believer and lives His life through the believer out of a heart filled with love and not based on fear or compulsion. The above seem to be the only two points that I'd say we are in complete agreement on. I believe that God's offer of salvation is freely available to all based on the all-sufficiency of Christ, by grace through faith, based on God's provision to meet the lack found in man. You seem to believe that some "special additional revelation is necessary", that most of us "don't get". I reject any person's claim to a revelation from God that is not in accord with what He has already revealed in His Word (The OT & NT), whether he be the Pope, a well respected "Christian" clergyman, or a mere navy man. Back up your revelation with contextual renderings of scripture if you wish to convince me or anyone else that you are not mistaken in your understanding, particularly in this area: How is God's salvation obtained by sinful man? Is it all of God and merely received by man, or is it a combination of God and man? Therein lies TRUTH or error. That is the crux of the issue at hand, and the only question that you need answer. All other doctrine is of secondary importance and does not relate to the salvation of man, and only confuses the issue of primary importance. So, Opeth, please, state clearly your understanding of how salvation is "obtained" or "realized" by man, point by point, without confusing the issue with subordinate doctrines. That's all you need to do. [This message has been edited by Denise (03-09-2002 04:46 PM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Nor even responded to my attempt to do it for him… |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, Ron, I've also noted that. To my mind, if one takes a position that he wishes to argue, against the position that another holds, it should be easy enough to clearly present it and defend it, point by point and thus prove the fallicy of the other's position. Red herring arguments don't cut it. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Ron said, "You believe Jesus is the Christ. Welcome Him into your heart and you will be filled with a love of God. Hidden between your words, not explicitly said, is the implication you will also be filled with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Motivated by that love, and led by that guidance, you will try to lead your life as Christ would want. Again left unsaid but implicit, this in no way interferes with your free will. Ergo, you won't always succeed, but your failures will be forgiven (I'm assuming being filled with God makes anything but genuine sorrow impossible) and will not jeopardize your salvation. I know there's a lot in there that can be expounded upon, but is there anything that needs to be corrected? Or is that a fair summary?" - I'd say close. Let me state how salvation works. First of all, the most important concept of salvation to grasp is that God is not trying to save the world now. He knows better than to leave the "saving of your souls" mission to mankind. Many ministers of all faiths would lead one to believe that there is a battle going on between God and Satan (Let see the scoreboard, Satan has claimed 100K new souls this week, that makes the score Satan 700 Trillion to God's 400 Billion). One must first be called. God is only calling a very few individuals at this time. Those being called are no better than those who are not. When God calls upon an individual. The TRUTH will be made known to him or her. ONE truth. If that person accepts the calling and repents from their sins, accepts Jesus as their saviour, is baptised...then that person will receive God's Holy Spirit (not a 3rd and separate entity, but the Spirit of God) into their hearts and that Spirit will provide the guidance, will make known what is SIN because that person is now a subject of the Kingdom of God (the Gospel of Christ). That Kingdom resides in their hearts for now (until Christ sets up his Kingdom here on earth during the Day of the Lord). The called person out of love their God, with freedom of choice, will choose to live the obedient life to Christ as his/her servant out of love for their God, guided by the Spiritual law of love. Not born again...yet, but begotten anew. Compare it to a woman=church, Christ=groom, and that woman being pregnant with children = the begotten ones. When Christ returns, then the birth will take place and those begotten will become born again into a new spiritual body and rule (albeit subject to Him, like a child is to their father) with Christ in His Kingdom on earth. At that time, the hundreds upon trillions of people who never knew Christ existed, who never could understand God's plan, who were duped into false christianity, and all the other false religions, who were mentally retarded, who died instantly of hunger in the desert, who died still born, who were taught be the carnal minds of men, who were remote of any civilization, etc, etc, etc....they will rise from their graves back into their physical bodies, whereupon they will be taught by God and His saints, themselves the TRUTH. Most will accept Christ, few will reject Him. I think I have gone off on a tangent here. I think I have answered your question. I must admit, it would appear by the tone that I am receiving here, that you are perched to attempt to "bring me down." I am ready for it. If I am wrong, I apologize in advance. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-10-2002 07:33 AM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
My dear Denise, The Internet is new means of communicating, and I am but a child with regards to it. "You brought up my intelligence and my education, I didn't, and then stated that it was scary that "I didn't get it." I am sorry if I offended you with regards to the intelligence issue. It was a misunderstanding due to my inability to explain myself clearly on the issue of "getting it." It is scary to me, that I understand the bible the way I do after humbly asking for guidance those many years ago. Scary because intelligent people (not just you, but many that I have encountered in my life) do not understand the Bible the way I do, yet they read the same words. It is scary to me because I didn't WANT to believe the way I do ~ yet to me, there is no other way to understand and interpret the bible. That scares me. This does not mean in any shape or form that I feel superior intellectually or wiser than any one. Not at all. I am either a kook (lol) or truly called. That scares me. I hope I cleared this matter up. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-10-2002 07:43 AM).] |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: LOL - Yes, you went off a tangent. No, you didn't even come close to answering my question. And, no, I wasn't perching in anticipation of bringing you down. I was looking for common ground. If we agree on the foundation of Christianity, then our discussions is about doctrine. If we don't agree on that foundation, the discussion is about something entirely different. If I can't get clear answers, then there simply is no discussion. I believe we call it Christianity because it's about Christ. While there are many, many other things to discuss, I think all the important ones are implicit in that single statement. If that seems too simple, perhaps it's because I'm a simple man who long ago realized that the greatest Truths are inevitably both simple and elegant. Complexity is usually just another name for conditional Truth. It is rarely elegant, is even more rarely convincing, and is never the final Truth. I've seen this over and over again in science, math, and art, and I can't believe God is an exception to that rule. I believe, rather, that the rule is a reflection of God. Christianity is about Christ. Everything else is doctrine, dogma, or just plain trivia. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Geez, guys, thanks for turning this into the longest thread ever in Philosophy. I keep looking for places to divide it, but the line of thinking seems resolutely in one direction. As far as I can tell, Denise and Opeth agree on much more than they disagree. I can really only see two differences: 1. Denise stresses the private, personal relationship with God, period. Stephan does this as well by the way. Opeth believes the same thing but adds that their must be some attempt to follow the spiritual Law for those who believe. He also believes that many Christians are misled into believing that no attempt is necessary by organized clergy or whatever. --But I find it difficult to believe that Denise doesn't believe that a good Christian shouldn't try to do the same thing (and nor does Stephan). It's just that she doesn't believe that can have any connection to salvation itself. --But Opeth seems to agree with this by his use of 'try'. It doesn't seem that the attempt (and ultimate failure) of those who follow the spiritual law has much to do with salvation as I read him. --Nevertheless, he does place an extra burden upon himself in being 'called'. Here he seems to believe that those who're called MUST try harder to obey at the risk of losing eternal life (that's a tricky one to swallow given the other posts). Denise, although she hasn't mentioned this, would probably argue that while trying isn't such a bad thing, the risk of losing eternal life CANNOT be connected to works in any way. 2. Time seems to be an issue. Opeth follows the Biblical chronology rigorously (the day of the Sabbath, those who did not have an opportunity to accept Christ will be granted that at some point in the future, the rising of the dead). I suspect Denise neither agrees nor disagrees with this and is content to have faith in God regardless of how it actually manifests itself. So, do we just have a replay of the works versus faith argument? I don't think so. For the vast majority of souls, I think Denise and Opeth agree (not in the details, not in the time frame, perhaps, but in the principles). They do disagree, however, on a select few who have been 'called'. Opeth's idea, I think, revolves around the rich man parable: if one is spiritually 'rich', one has more of a duty to obey the Spiritual Law. If you don't feel that duty than you aren't 'called' by definition. He doesn't see that as being 'better' than other people, but as simply something he has to do. Denise sees this as a flaw in that it somehow diminishes the essential point of salvation. Opeth would disagree: it doesn't contradict the connection between faith and salvation but is one particular path within the overall scope of faith and salvation. I suspect that Opeth is searching for others who feel the same way and he feels that many false churches are deceiving those who should be called, who want to be called. They are being turned away from their destiny by not having knowledge of this path. They aren't asking the questions that need to be asked. They aren't asking for the call. Well, there's my attempt to make sense of this. Brad |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Opeth, first of all I accept your apology although it is not necessary. I didn't feel insulted, but rather was just pointing to the fact that whatever intelligence you stated that you thought I had, you were insulting that by not being forthright, that's all. You have at last now stated your beliefs, to an extent. You still have not told us what the TRUTH is that was revealed to you and will be revealed in the future to those who will be taught by Christ in the Kingdom, or is that something that you are not permitted to reveal until you are convinced that someone has the "calling"? Brad, my faith is in line with what Ron has stated - simple. It is Christ and His sacrifice, period. It becomes appropriated in one's life when they simply take God at His word that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for salvation. When we do, the Law is taken out of the way and the believer is married to Christ. In other words, as we were once joined to the Law, we are now joined to Christ for righteousness. We do not "try" to live a law abiding life. Works, man's efforts, attempts at keeping laws, etc., nullify God's grace. They are mutually exclusive. All that we do, in practice, is to "present ourselves as a living sacrifice, which is our spiritual worship, and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts" (referring to deeds done in the flesh, good or bad) and allow Christ to live His righteousness through us. Inasmuch as Opeth adds conditions for the obtaining of salvation, to his understanding, our respective foundations are as opposite as they could possibly be. The correct foundation has to be laid first before arriving at a proper understanding of anything that follows. A faulty foundation can only lead to a faulty "building", so to speak. To my understanding, the Bible teaches that Christ alone is our sure foundation. To some it may be the Law, to some it may be Christ plus something else, ie, the Law, good deeds, commitment, baptism, repentence from sins, etc. To me, these are all different gospels, one from the other. There are some verses that join baptism with faith and/or repentence with faith, and the context and the understanding of word meanings are important in these instances. Baptism does not always refer to water baptism. Being baptized into Christ, for example, means our being identified with Him in His death and resurrection, when we believe. Water baptism is just a public testimony of what has already occured. I believe water baptism is a step of obedience to the Lord but not a condition for salvation. Likewise the word repentence has come to mean in our culture a sorrow or remorse for sin and/or a turning from sin. The word literally means "to change one's mind". As it relates to salvation it is a changing of one's mind about themselves, that they are sinners, and also about the person of Christ, who He is, what He has come to do, and what He freely offers to man. In that sense, then, yes, repentence could be seen as a "condition" for salvation. But it is incorrectly seen as a condition for salvation if one sees it as being remorseful, contrite, an attempt to "clean oneself up", moral reform, etc. Not that these are all bad, in and of themselves, but they are not to be seen as a co-condition with faith, or as a prerequiste prior to salvation. Some people have "repented" in this manner before salvation, but it is still faith alone in Christ alone that provides their salvation. If salvation were not by faith alone than the entire gospel of John, which is the only book in the Bible that explicity states that it was written to explain the way of salvation, is only half a gospel and does not fulfill its stated purpose. Also, in all of Paul's Epistles he states that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. When good works are mentioned, they are mentioned as an expected result in the believers life, not an evidence of salvation and not as a prerequiste in obtaining salvation. Also, as I stated before, I accept no supposed revelation from God that is not in accord with His revealed will in the Scriptures. God states His will and desire plainly, as you can see from these verses below. And it is available to all. There is no mention of "special" revelation to an elect few. If there were, I would have no problem with Opeth's understanding that there is. He cannot arrive at his convictions without taking verses out of their context and rendering a meaning to them that they clearly do not have when read in the context of the paragraph or chapter involved. That explains my insistence for in-context study. I realize that many people have a really hard time getting their minds around the fact that God is so gracious and so loving that He would give so much to us, freely, as a gift. I had a hard time of it myself. I guess sometimes people have to come to the end of themselves in their striving for righteousness before they realize the only way they could ever possibly get it is for free. Maybe that's the way it works. I know that that's the route I had to travel. Perhaps it wasn't as hard and didn't take me as long as it does for some because I am a very scrupulous person who didn't excuse myself by watering down the Law. I came to know that the Law demands perfection and I knew that I didn't and could never fulfill its conditions. I also knew that my making attempts to try to do better didn't make up for my past failures, and my attempts always ended in new failures. I clearly saw my lack and His provision. (Pertaining to salvation and living by faith) John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us – eternal life. John 5: 12-13 He who has the Son has life. He who has not the Son has not life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Ephesians 2: 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Revelation 22:17 And whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace. Galations 2: 20-21 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me and the life I live I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Romans 4: 14-16 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified. For the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation. For this reason it is by faith that it might be in accordance with grace. Romans 4:20 - 22 Yet with respect to the promise of God, he (Abraham) did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God. And being fully persuaded that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore also, it was reckoned to him as righteousness. (Pertaining to the keeping of Holy Days, and Sabbaths) Romans 14:5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike; Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. Galations 4: 9-10 But now that you have come to know God, or rather, be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things to which you desire to be enslaved again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. (Pertaining to attempting to mix law with grace) Galations 5: 3-4 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision (for righteousness) that he is obligated to keep the whole law (for righteousness). You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. As an aside, although an important one, in my estimation, a very popular evangelistic technique is to ask people to "Invite Jesus into their hearts". I believe that this is dangerous, for two reasons: First, this concept is found nowhere in the Bible in regards to salvation. Second, people can sincerely ask Jesus into their hearts and still not be trusting in Him alone for their salvation. For instance, I heard of one man who believed that Jesus was just a prophet along with all the others and he had invited all of them into his heart, including Jesus, because he wanted all the "goodness" that he could get. He did not beleive that Jesus was the Messiah and the Savior of the world and was not trusting in His sacrifice alone to meet his need. God's message is to simply believe, to trust, to take Him at His word regarding the all-sufficient sacrifice of His Son. That's the message of the Gospel, to my understanding. And I just have to share something that I just found out in my studies of this verse: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10 God has prepared ahead of time the good works that He wills for the believer to walk in as he is led of Him in this life, which is enough to bless my socks off, but this is the icing on the cake: the word workmanship in the Greek is poema, the word that gives us our word poem! So I could say, without too much poetic license, I think, that all believers are a poem created by God! How cool is that?! God is a poet too!! And simple and elegant to boot! [This message has been edited by Denise (03-10-2002 11:37 PM).] |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Brad, and yes, you are correct about everything else pertaining to how God actually plans for the end times to play out are of a secondary nature to me, and are not for me to agree or disagree. I’ve been around the Christian circuit long enough to have heard every conceivable interpretation, varying from denomination to denomination. My conclusion can only be that God will do what God will do. It’s His call. I do know that whatever He does will be in perfect accord with His perfect justice, His perfect mercy and His perfect love. That’s good enough for me, and I don’t need to figure out the details. Jesus Himself said that He doesn’t even know the day or the hour of His Second Coming, that the Father only has that knowledge. So if there are things that Jesus doesn’t even know, I’m sure there’s plenty that I don’t know. Also, I forgot to mention, I love this statement by the famous evangelist of the last century, Charles Trumball: What are the resources of the Christian life? Jesus! I think that eloquently and simply sums up the Christian experience. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
And so about 15-16 years ago, a humble military man got down on his knees and asked God for guidance...asked to be shown "the Way" and what I have posted here is what I was shown, what was revealed to me...was what I had come to know as the TRUTH. Denise understands her truth. I understand the truth revealed to me. And how many other millions of people asked to be shown the TRUTH...of all faiths. The Muslim who got down on his knees asking for the truth, or the Buddhist on her knees, or the American Indian praying for understanding to what he believes to be the true Deity, and etc, etc. It is amazing. Denise is so sure in her beliefs, just as I am or was, just as the next person is about their beliefs, whatever beliefs they may be... Who is to say who is right and wrong? |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Brad, I really enjoyed reading how you put things into perspective. That was very well done, indeed. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Opeth, You have really moved from one extreme to the other here. Earlier you spoke of the assurance of the "little flock" . . . a remnant who has the true knowledge of God. Have you now come to the conclusion that no one really knows the Truth? Or have you come to the conclusion (as many others have) that there are many truths that all will lead to a beneficent end, even though the various "truths" are all contradictory? Actually Opeth, from reading your thread, we see things more alike than different. You believe that Jesus Christ is the savior of mankind, the messiah. So do I. You believe that not to be saved is the worst possible fate (regardless of the particular description of that fate). So do I. You believe that Believers should manifest a life of Love and striving to keep God's law out of Love and gratitude for his saving grace. So do I. You are concerned that there is a popular religious "Church-likeness" in the World that is lulling many to sleep and to perdition by peddling cheap grace, and ignoring the need for repentance, and taking up the cross for Jesus. SO DO I! The only difference is where we stand doctrinally on some issues. I think in your "response" against the apostasy, you have reacted against dogma in many ways. I on the other hand believe that the "apostate church" has her dogma right in the main, but doesn't know Jesus. This is illustrated in the second chapter of Revelation (verse 2) Where Jesus tells the Church in Ephesus... "...you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." And then two verses later tells them... "Nevertheless I have this agaist you that you have left your first love. . . repent. . . else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand" Their dogma seemed to be right, Jesus says nothing of Heresy. I think that, overall, the condition of Bible-Preaching churches is exactly the same. I think what you may be seeing that is so disturbing (and I have seen it too and grieve over it) is a great apostasy of knowing Jesus, not necessarily of knowing about him. The problem is, when a man or woman sees this apostasy,it is all too possible to attempt to regain what was lost in the wrong way. If Dogma is not the precious pearl that was lost, we cannot regain it by reacting against percieved false points of doctrine. I am in No way saying that doctrine isn't important. It is essential in many ways. The problems I see in many organized religious groups go far beyond doctrinal points. Maybe that's why you can meet someone like me, who basically believes the dogma of the "mainstream" bible-preaching churches, but shares with you the same pain and confusion over this "Harlotry" we see. I too believe there is a little flock . . . a remnant (and not stuck in one "group" or another... it will not have a human name). . . who is being prepared to show forth the true praises of Christ by living different... not necessarily believing different intellectually. This brings me to my last point. As to your question "Who is to say who is right or wrong"? When Jesus is someone to know and not merely to understand intellectually, then He himself can speak what is right or wrong. He is the determiner of truth, as he said "I am the Truth...". My quest is to know him better. And I also urge you to seek him, not just understanding (I am not implying that you haven't sought him already). I just want to encourage you. I myself do not have all the answers. And I need to know him better. But I know him and that he is true and faithful. Perhaps we don't see things so different. We just all need to know him in his grace. We are fallen men. Our understanding is distorted in it's natural state, we need him to give us a revelation ... of Himself. Respectfully, Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (03-11-2002 05:41 PM).] |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Stephen, To my understanding grace isn't cheap. It's free. It is God's gift to sinful man. It cost Jesus His life. To Him it was costly. There is no cost to man for salvation. All that man can do, being dead in his sin is to receive that life through what Christ has done. A miracle takes place at that moment. What could man supply from his side of the equation to add to that? What does God need from man other than that of man turning to God to receive what He is offering? At that point of faith the Spirit indwells the believer. In what sense can it be perceived as cheap? I believe that those who see free grace as cheap grace do not yet either have a full understanding of their own total depravity and helplessness before God and think that they can contribute something or have not yet come into a full appreciation of the miracle working power of God. To walk by faith in the Son of God, allowing our thoughts to be transformed through the renewing of our minds, to cast ourselves totally upon His strength and to place no confidence in ourselves, realizing that in our own flesh dwells no good thing, but that any good that comes through us is His goodness living in us and shining through us, what can we add to that? Descipleship (being His student), not salvation, is costly to us in the sense that we need discipline and commitment to apply ourselves in learning. And yes, there will be crosses to bear when we follow Him, sometimes in our families, sometimes in our workplace, sometimes even in our churches, but these are not the issues of salvation, they are issues for the believer after salvation. And they are crosses that He bears with us, so in that sense we can even receive blessing in that. It is a blessed burden. And even our failures [and who is the one who performs perfectly, and by whose standards?]in these areas cannot not undo His miracle of salvation in our lives. I have never seen a church that preaches Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone, to the Glory of God Alone, as a church with just a "Church-likeness" but a church that is thriving and overflowing with joy and gratefulness to Christ as their "all in all". It is not knowing about Him, it is knowing Him, being rightly related to God through Him and enjoying intimate fellowship with Him, and all of His love and grace. How could that be perceived as leading men to perdition? Our lives are a continuous heart attitude of growing in His grace, repenting of our shortcomings, our failures caused when we take our focus off Him to be our sufficiency in all things. It is a repentence undergirded by His total acceptance of us, because of His total acceptance of us, and not to earn a right standing before Him. Our "striving" is to rest in Him, to allow Him to live out His divine life through us as we do. How could that be perceived as "Harlotry"? To my understanding, the Apostate churces are and have always been the ones that attach conditions to what God has designed to be freely given and gratefully received. It is the church that says grace through faith is not enough, there must be something required of man, it can't possibly be enough to just trust in what He has done to receive the promise. I think that you would find more "wrong living" in the church that puts legalistic requirements on its members as opposed to the church that operates out of Christ's Law of Liberty, since we find that the Bible teaches that the "power of sin is in the Law". I think that you would find more "secret" sins and hypocracy in the church that does not wholeheartedly teach its membership to rely totally on Christ for salvation and then point them for their victory in living an overcoming life by pointing them to the same all-sufficient savior. I believe that is the kind of church that is in danger of losing its first love, because its focus is taken off of Him and is put on "doing" and/or "striving to become" for Him, instead of just "being" in Him, that soon He is just a shadow in the background. I believe that that is the church that needs to repent (change its mind and refocus on its Source of life.) Does grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone produce love in our hearts that overflows in good works? You bet! But its all of Him. After salvation, are we to be life long desciples of Him, no matter the cost? You bet! But that's all of Him as well. He not only carries our burdens, our crosses, He carries us as well, all to His glory. Here is an excerpt from Martin Luther's commentary on Galations that you might find to be a blessing: Now the truth of the Gospel is, that our righteousness cometh by faith alone, without the works of the law. The corruption or falsehood of the Gospel is, that we are justified by faith, but not without the works of the law. With this condition annexed, the false apostles preached the Gospel. Even so do our sophisters and Papists at this day. For they say that we must believe in Christ, and that faith is the foundation of our salvation, but it justifieth not, except it be furnished with charity [love]. This is not the Gospel, but falsehood and dissumulation. But the true Gospel indeed is that works of charity [love] are not the ornament or perfection of faith: but that faith of itself is God's gift and God's work in our hearts, which therefore justifieth us, because it apprehendeth Christ our redeemer. Man's reason hath law for his object, thus thinking with itself: This I have done, this I have not done. But faith being in her proper office, hath no other object but Jesus Christ the Son of God, delivered to death for the sins of the world. It looketh not to charity [love]; it saith not: What have I done? What have I offended? What have I deserved? But [it saith]: What hath Christ done, what hath he deserved? Here the truth answereth thee: He hath redeemed thee from sin, from the devil, and from eternal death. Faith therefore acknowledgeth that in this one person, Jesus Christ, it hath forgiveness of sins and eternal life. I think these excerpts of two old-time hymns express my heart as well as anything could: Just As I Am by Charlotte Elliott & William B. Branbury Just as I am, without one plea, But that Thy blood was shed for me, And that Thou bidd'st me come to Thee, O Lamb of God, I come! I come! Just as I am, Thou wilt receive, Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve, Because Thy promise, I believe, O Lamb of God, I come! I come! No Other Plea by Lidie H. Edmunds & William J. Kirkpatrick My faith has found a resting place, Not in device nor creed, I trust the Everliving One, His wounds for me shall plead. My heart is leaning on the Word, The written Word of God, Salvation by my Savior's name, Salvation through His blood. I need no other argument, I need no other plea, It is enough that Jesus died And that He died for me. When one comes in faith to God, takes God at His word that He offers eternal life freely to us through His Son, "no strings attached", "no bill in the mail", God does the work that needs to be done. He gives us what He has promised. He gives us a new heart. He changes us, we don't change ourselves, before or after salvation. Man is always and forever merely the grateful recipient. It is the mind of man that insists on "conditions", not the heart of a gracious God. [This message has been edited by Denise (03-11-2002 10:11 PM).] |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Stephanos replied with what he believed to be the truth, yet his truth, just like mine and Denise's are not the same truths. This is just a capsule of the hundreds of thousands of truths that certain people come to find, therefore resulting in many different religions, and denominations of a relgion. Until one dies, and even if they believe in their own mind without any doubt, only then will the TRUTH be found. Churches sell insurance policies. "Wooden Jesus Where are you from: Korea, Canada or maybe Taiwan? Well I didn't know it was the Holy Land, But I believed from the minute The check left my hand. And I pray. Can I be saved? I spent all my money on a future grave. Wooden Jesus I will cut you in on 20% of my future sin." - Chris Cornell [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-12-2002 08:40 AM).] |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Denise, I am in no way denying that salvation is a gift from God. And there is no merit on our part to get it. That's what the Bible teaches, and I know it is true of my own Salvation experience. I came to God with nothing to offer him and he recieved me for merely coming to him. So we believe the same here. What I am saying is that individuals can believe all the right doctrines intellectually, and still not walk in the truth. Grace can be turned into a "License to sin" as Paul mentioned in Romans 6. Grace can be a "cover-all" when we take it and apply it our own way. It is like the fig-leaves of Genesis. True Grace is indeed the Grace of God, free but unwavering in what it offers... holiness. This is what I mean by "cheap grace" ... When we don't really accept the full package of Grace and everything it promises. We take the forgiveness of sins, (for this is like fire insurance), but reject the grace that insists that we go on in holiness, and take up our cross. I am not speaking of works of the Law in order to obtain salvation. I don't believe that we can get salvation by works. Please don't misunderstand me, I don't believe in a works based salvation. I never coined the phrase "cheap grace", but if you get a chance read some of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writings (especially the Cost of Discipleship). He was a German Theologian brought up in Lutheran doctrine (Grace alone, Faith alone, etc...). He believed these. But he also saw a nominal and shallow confession of Christ, which, like Esau, desired the blessing, but cared little for the birthright. When we make grace "cheap" we assume some things. . . that salvation is ours to reach for anytime we want. We tend to think we can put God off because he is SO loving that he would never allow any one to be damned. His salvation is precious but it has become a "ticket to Heaven" and not a thing which permeates and changes the whole course of our lives. It is illustrated in this one title of Jesus "Savior and Lord". We'll take the Savior, but don't want the Lord. These are inseperable however. "Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven"... aren't these words sobering? Here are some scriptures that illustrate what I am talking about. One thing that used to be preached strong in the churches was our responsiblity to "work out" our own salvation with "fear and trembling". Yes I know that some might say that I mean "works of the law", but I don't... it also continues, "for it is God who works in you...". This responsibility of ours is not preached like it should be, and sadly the reason we often give is "Jesus paid it all". We are merchandising his precious grace that cost him his very life, and pain without measure on the cross. Here are some scriptures that might illustrate what I mean... "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Peter 1:10) "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:4-12) "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13) "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for he is faithful that promised ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10: 23-31) "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5) "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." (John 15:1-8) How often do you hear these scriptures preached alongside "grace"? If you do Denise in your church, you are fortunate and blessed, and I am not the Judge of the churches. Jesus alone is the one who "stands among the golden candlesticks" as the judge. I am just pointing out that I see a great imbalance in Christendom... either everone is trying to work their way into Heaven, or trying to climb over the wall of "Ease" under the guise of "grace". Who is wise enough to bring everything in and walk in the middle. And yes salvation is free to recieve, yet costly to live out. Jesus did say "count the cost". All I am suggesting is that if we are not living it out, could it be that we didn't really recieve it properly... there is that parable about the soil being unfit for the seed. I am talking to me just as much to others. This is convicting! Opeth, I don't think it's "many truths", but trying to look at the truth from different angles. Paul said we see "as through a glass darkly". The most important thing is that our vision is clearing as we get closer to Christ. It's more about the heart than the mind. Stephen. [This message has been edited by Stephanos (03-12-2002 11:33 AM).] |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I suspected that Jesus might get the longest post in Philosophy! Praise his name! I also thank God that we are talking more in Peace than arguing... This also glorifies the God of Peace. Your friend, Stephen. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Stephanos, You expressed your viewpoint most excellently to Denise. Stephanos said, "I don't think it's "many truths", but trying to look at the truth from different angles. Paul said we see "as through a glass darkly". The most important thing is that our vision is clearing as we get closer to Christ. It's more about the heart than the mind." But see to you and to other Christians, it is only through Jesus in which one can receive salvation. Your truth. You prayed and received your answer. You believe that the Bible is the word of God. You interpret in the way you understand it, just as I have done and countless others. Yet, I know people of other faiths, that have prayed and have received to be what they know as the TRUTH. Do Christians believe that they are not privy to the truth or lied to by Satan? Do they, in turn believe that Christianity is wrong and is of Satan? Christianity teaches that only through Christ one can be saved. Jewish people believe otherwise, Muslims too, Native American Indians have prayed and received their TRUTH too. This is what I am talking about. In your mind you are sure that you are correct. In their minds they are sure they are correct. Which mortal here on earth can say whose truth true? I have come to the conclusion that nobody can, unless one has died and returned from death, only then can one know for sure what the truth is. I can hear the replies in my mind... "Dear Opeth, I know the truth. I know Jesus is Lord! It says so in the Bible." But that doesn't make it true. We could all say to each other, "Okay, wait til you die, then you'll find out that I was right!" And the other person who believes in something else can say the same exact thing. We are all raised with a bias towards our own worldview and cultural upbringings, believing our way is right and that other ways are wrong. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I join you in your praise, Stephen! Indeed! I've not only heard these passages preached, I've also studied them extensively. With the sure foundation laid of Jesus Christ and our eternal destiny forever secure in Him, through faith, we can remove the terror that may be there at first glance or casual reading and glean the wisdom of a loving Father, warning His children against apostasy and/or willful sin in their lives. A safeguard against failing in these ways is to keep our fellowship with Him active and ongoing through resting in Him, prayer, confessing our sins and shortcomings and asking for His leading and strength for victory, doctrinally sound bible study, and fellowship with other believers, to continually draw from His wellspring of grace and mercy with grateful hearts for all that He has so freely given to us. An important thing to keep in mind when reading "hard" verses like this that can "seem" to contradict salvation as an eternally secure and free gift, which it is, one must delve deeply into the context of the book and/or passage and also determine who and what is being spoken of. If we start with the premise that salvation is a free gift and also concede that due to how these people were addressed that they were indeed believers, eternally secure in Christ, and our theology allows us to admint that it is possible for true believers to “fall away” then we can begin to shed some light on what is being spoken of and be able to ascertain the correct message. Also, just as with many words and phrases in the Bible, it's important to be aware that not every reference to fire means hell and/or damnation, just as every referene to baptism is not water baptism, and just as every reference to repentence does not mean repentence from sin,etc. Those being addressed in this passage were Hebrew Christians. They were genuine believers, as can be seen in their having “tasted of the heavenly gift” and having “partaken of the Holy Spirit”. These terms can never be used of unbelievers and/or false professors. Thus their eternal destiny was not in question since they had already received eternal life, as promised by Christ, which can’t be undone, otherwise it wouldn’t be called eternal life if we could take ourselves in and out of its reality, but that is what Christ gives us, "eternal life" at the moment we believe on Him. Eternal is indeed eternal beginning at the moment of faith and it is backed by the promise of God. These believers were now considering a return to animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of their sins (2:1-18; 3:12; 7:11-28; 10:1-18) that they had been commanded under the Law to do, in a looking ahead to the coming death of the Messiah, prior to the death and resurrection of Christ (10:1-10). They were now being influenced to give up their belief that the death of Jesus was enough to pay the complete penalty for their sins. They were close to apostasy regarding the doctrine of Christ’s substitutionary atonement, and thereby “putting Him and His sacrifice to open shame” in their communities, which would have been particularly so in their mostly non-believing Jewish environment. This would most definitely have put them out of fellowship with God big time. Serious apostasy here, for sure, so serious that God is saying that they will not repent and restore their fellowship with Him until they have been severely disciplined through fiery and inescapable chastisement. If they had fallen into this apostasy some may have remained in that state their entire lives, yet they themselves would not be lost. They would suffer loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ and most certainly would not be receiving any of the rewards given to the overcoming believers, that’s for sure. I also think it possible that even though they could find no repentence for their apostasy in and of themselves, some may have after their chastisement, for all things are possible with God. In any event, they would not be in danger of damnation since that can never be the fate of the genuine believer. The burning of thorns and thistles in this passage and the burning of the unproductive branches in John 15:6, refers to the Lord’s discipine in our lives to purge us and to make us more productive and frutiful, a reference to a common agricultural practice. The burning doesn’t destroy the field, likewise this is not a damnation of the person being referred to but it is a temporal means whereby God burns the bad works and/or sinful deeds from our lives, because He loves us too much to have us remain unfruitful in Him. Hebrews 10: 26-31 is a serious warning for believers who want to continue in their own thing, in their own stubborn and rebellious ways, and not to seriously consider the sacrifice made by Christ on their behalf, "as though it were a common thing". There is some really serious temporal punishment being talked about here, but that is what it is, it’s not talking to unbelievers, false professors, etc. It is talking to genuine believers who for one reason or another are not submitting themselves to God to be used of Him in their daily lives. There is no mention of Hell, or the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna. So in that way again as in the other passages, it is definitely talking about discipline, even severe, from the hand of the Lord. These passages can certainly be convicting and are certainly to be taken seriously. In all these passages it is "believers" who are being addressed, not the false professor or mere "church" person. They are in no way condemning in the sense of a person losing their salvation. Rewards yes, salvation no. I suppose having come from a very legalist background myself and experiencing first hand just how devastating it can be, I tend to see that it is the legalistic church that has a greater chance of giving off the wrong message to the people in their congregations. I think, no, I know, how confusing it can be when "salvation" and "descipleship" issues are not kept clearly and unmistakably seperated in the message being preached. A clear message of God's free salvation can be so easily convoluted when descipleship demands are placed on the unbeliever, who is after all, still "dead in sins". It can be devastating. They first have to be made alive in Christ and that can only happen through the miracle of the new birth through faith alone. As we drink in and grow in His love and grace and become stronger in the faith, then we are equipped to go onto descipleship. And it is only His love and grace that enables us to do even that! I believe that the only thing that tills the soil of the human heart so that it is prepared properly to receive Him is the consistent, unwavering message of His unconditional love and His free grace to "whosoever will may come". That only can be the firm foundation. First things first, as they say. With God, it's absolutely essential. Once we were dead, now we live, once we were blind, now we see. And its all of His grace! |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Denise said, "...through faith, we can remove the terror that may be there at first glance or casual reading and glean the wisdom of a loving Father, warning His children against apostasy and/or willful sin (my emphasis) in their lives." So I ask you, Denise, what is sin? Is smoking a sin? Is eating to much a sin? Is drinking alcohol a sin? Is watching a pornographic movie a sin? Is writing seductive poetry in the adult forum of a poetry site a sin? Is watching any form of violent tv a sin? Is reading any form of violent book a sin? Is it a sin not to go to church? Is it a sin to listen to rock music? What is a sin? Who determines what a sin is? Could one person commit a sin that is not a sin for another person to commit? I truly don't understand your take on the subject of sin. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I commented on this subject before briefly in response to Opeth, but did not really elaborate and perhaps folks missed it. Matthew Chapter 7: 21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I’ve never understood why obviously intelligent people, and yet I see it all the time, take this verse to speak of those who preach and believe that salvation is all of God as a free gift that does not require or condition salvation upon lost and needy sinners making a “human” commitment to Christ as “Lord and Master”, simultaneously with belief, for salvation to be genuine. If that argument held any weight, it would follow then that the verse would actually read more like this: Not every one that saith unto me, Savior, Savior, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And the very next verse might then read like this: Many will say to me in that day, Savior, Savior, have we not believed on You, according to Your offer of and promise of eternal life, through Your sacrifice on our behalf, and cast all of our hope for entry into the kingdom of heaven upon You and on what You have done and not upon anything that we have done or might do to earn entry in our own right? Instead what we do see is that those being spoken of in this verse are those who are saying Lord, Lord. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Notice in this next verse that they also say nothing of their faith or their belief, or their trust, in Him in their plea for entry into the Kingdom. They are pointing out to Him all that they have done for Him. They have the mindset of “self” righteousness, not the righteousness of God that can only come from God and can only be received gratefully as God intended because of Christ’s all-sufficient sacrifice, as a gift. He calls their deeds “works of iniquity”, for all works that do not come out of a grateful dependant heart, resting in Him, are worthless, even the “good things” that man can do. “Whatever is not of faith is sin.” Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Jesus is calling their prophesying, casting out of demons and wonderful works, iniquity. Can you see that? Apparently these people had never received the “water of life freely” and had conditioned God’s offer with ideas of their own, i.e., faith plus programs of one sort or another, which by their very nature invalidate the reception of the free gift. If one is trusting in Christ plus something then their faith is not in Christ’s sacrifice alone. Faith in Christ plus faith in moral reform, commitment, dedication of life on a mission field, going to church, reading the Bible, walking an aisle, being sorrowful for sins or doing good works is not faith in Christ alone. Our full confidence must be in Him alone, not in anything in us. We must come to Him without anything of our own to offer in return. A gift is not a gift if we are required to give something in return for it. Anything that we receive in that way would then be considered “wages that are due to us”, and that’s not God’s plan of redemption. Think for a moment on the covenant that God made with Abraham, the “Father of Faith”. When the pieces of the animals had been cut and laid out as prescribed for the cutting of a covenant in those days, the two parties would then pass between the pieces that had been cut signifying that “the one who breaks this covenant, may it be done to him as has been done to these animals.” When the time approached for Abraham and God to pass through the pieces, God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Abraham. God was the only one to pass between the pieces, Abraham did not. God signified that He is the one responsible to keep the covenant of faith, period. Man has no part in it at all except to gratefully receive God’s promises through faith, just as Abraham did. God takes all the responsibility for the keeping of the covenant upon Himself. He is truly awesome! When we come to God by faith alone and read His Word through the eyes of faith, it all starts to make sense and everything starts to fall into place. I pray that becomes the reality of many. What is the "will of the Father" in the above verses from Matthew's Gospel? "To believe on Him whom He has sent". Everything else will flow from that. Opeth, An excellent book for those of other cultures who may be skeptical about Jesus being who He says He is is Evidence That Demands A Verdict, by Hal Lindsay, I believe. It is a logical presentation and may be useful to those who are not quite sure about Him and wish to investigate His claims. As for the sin issue, it doesn’t matter how I define it, or how you define it or how anyone defines it. The issue is that the penalty for it has been paid by Christ and is freely available to “whosoever will”. [This message has been edited by Denise (03-13-2002 03:59 PM).] |
||
|
Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Denise Is the gift conditional? |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hmmmm, maybe we can take this to a new thread? What exactly is sin? Opeth, The answer to your question, I think, is yes. And no. Ron said it best: God knows intent. Guys, you lose readers when you keep this going. Start another thread, please, please, please. With sugar on top. Brad |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
edited: New thread started, sorry Brad, I didn't see your above request until after I posted this. [This message has been edited by Opeth (03-14-2002 08:38 AM).] |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
