How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 What exactly is Christianity?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ]
 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

What exactly is Christianity?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


50 posted 03-06-2002 09:23 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Where many of you are now, I was already there.

Brad talks about truths in plural, and he makes much sense, but when I was searching for the truth over 15 years ago, I believe the one and only truth was revealed to me (at that time).

What is sin, I asked. I didn't receive the answer that I found. I didn't come up with a MANkind answer. I found the answer many years ago in the bible...and yes, it deals with laws (another topic in which many of you are not understanding).

But read your own bible

1 John 3:4 states, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law."

Therefore, a sin is not something we people can say is or is not. A sin is the transgression of the laws of God.

Should I continue?  Or are you all so set in your ways, that just like the people of Christ's time, including the scribes and pharisees, that you don't want to open your minds and search for the REAL TRUTH. For if you make that decision, you can't turn back. You will become an outcast, just like I was. Come to think of it, Christ and his followers were never accepted by society either, so the company isn't bad.

Let's compare today with the time of Christ.

1. The Scribes and Pharisees of then are like the christian leaders of today.

2. Jesus was a Jew and the Scribes and Pharisees were Jews, the book in question was the OT, where today, the preachers, priests, etc are christians, and the book in question is both the OT and the NT.

3. Jesus taught that the S/Ps were missing the point and were not understanding the truth, and so is the same today.

4. Jesus said the true church will be hated and persecuted. Back then Himself and his followers were definitely not a part of society, hated, considered a cult. Today, the christian church is accepted and is mainstream in the US, the most powerful nation on the earth, certainly not considered a cult and hated like Christ and his followers. Conclusion - Today's christianity is the same as the Jewish faith of Christ time in its acceptance.

5. Jesus spoke of a false christ, that satan deceives the whole world. False christianity equaled to that of the Jewish faith of His time is equivalent.  That doesn't mean that the people in charge and their followers are doing so deliberately, it is just that the majority of them do not know the TRUTH.

Final conclusion -

The true christian and its true church today would not be accepted by society and the believers would be considered to be crazy just as Christ and his followers were during his time.

What is sin? I didn't give the answer. Your own bible did.

If your carnal mind wants to already try to find some way out of the answer that the bible has given, so be it. That is what the people did during Christ's time when He taught the TRUE meaning of the scriptures.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 09:42 AM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


51 posted 03-06-2002 09:39 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

So sin is the transgression of the laws of God, that is what the bible says...let's piece together some info abou this subject of law.

Should then Christians keep the laws of God?

Rom 6:12 states,

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof
.

Easy to understand, can't get this one misinterpreted. Paul is telling the Roman church not let sin "reign" in their body. Now that doesn't mean that the those people will not ever sin, but not to let it "reign" = take over. Don't break the laws of God with knowledge and continuous, is one way of describing it.

So many people confuse keeping the laws of a loving God through his Son,  with just obiding by laws without the Son, that is where many christians make their mistake because the LAWS of God are LOVE.

Rom 13:10

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."


Think about it, if you love your mother or father you will obey them, yes? Or if your daughter or son love you they will obey you, yes?  Why do they call me Lord and don't do what I tell them to? I don't even know them!

But the Scribes and pharisees couldn't see through the law. It was not in their hearts, it was not in LOVE. It was not spiritual.

Rom 7:14

"For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin."


Spiritual = law = love.

To sin is to transgress the laws of God. Those laws are spiritual. And in keeping those laws one must be of the spirit of God and through the love of God, which he showed his love through the death of his Son - not to let sin reign in their hearts.

I could go on. I have only scratched, and I mean just barely scratched the surface of this subject, which was a favorite of mine when it was revealed to me so many years ago...and if I would continue on with this TRUTH...it would be irrefutable.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 09:42 AM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


52 posted 03-06-2002 09:45 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Of course, most of you are not being called at this time and will not understand it and will reason it away with your carnal and false (albeit unintentionally) beliefs.

Rom 2:13

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."


"Gulp"

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 09:54 AM).]

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


53 posted 03-06-2002 01:05 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Opeth, none of the verses that you have stated here have been taken in their context and none of them, despite your understanding, are saying that salvation comes through our obeying the Law or through faith in Christ plus our obeying the Law. Reading and study must always be done in context so as to avoid inadvertant misinterpretation.

God's plan and message are simple and run through the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments.

The truth that you seem to have arrived at is that truth = obeying the Law for righteousness. The truth that I see is Christ alone, as He has fulfilled the Law on our behalf. The entirety of scripture validates this.

I think this beautiful piece of scripture makes it as plain as it can be.

Chapter 3 of the Book of Galations

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been  evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith.
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed,no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


54 posted 03-06-2002 01:45 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
But I do believe where God has given divine revelation through scripture, and where we can "rightly divide the word of truth", we can speak certainly about those things and proclaim them as right...  And yes conversely, other things as wrong.


We're half in agreement then, Stephen.

I have very few qualms about expressing what I believe is "right." Read my last post as just one example of many things I believe are clearly taught in the Bible. I rarely equivocate in what I believe to be true, nor am I shy about expressing my beliefs. Like you, I believe God has never lied to us and never will.

But I also KNOW God has never revealed the whole truth. Not in the Bible. Not in personal revelation. For me to know and understand the whole truth, I would have to become like God, His equal in every way. I believe that was the mistake Satan made, and even today, I think there are people with the arrogance to believe they are privileged above others. If knowledge is power, we should also remember that power corrupts. I believe an understanding of how very little we understand is the only shield against that corruption.

Faith is not about certainty. If it was, God would never be ambiguous.

Let's go back to the very beginning. "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen 2:16-17) This was certainly the Truth. But was it the whole truth? Did Adam and Eve have a complete and full understanding of exactly what their disobedience would bring into the world? I honestly don't know, but if it was me, with the knowledge I have today, I can't even imagine being foolish enough to eat that fruit. Satan could talk until he was blue in the face and I still ain't going there. But if I knew only what God had said to me, I might think He meant the fruit was poison, and yea, Satan just might be able to convince me it wasn't all that poisonous.

I am not in any way suggesting that God used a half-truth to trick Adam and Eve. That's Satan's MO, not God's. I think, rather, that God said, "Here is what you need to know, and here are your choices. Now, how much do you trust me?"

Faith is not about certainty. If it was, there would never have been Sin, Ishmael would not have been born, and Bathsheba would not be the mother of David's line.

Let's skip way ahead, to what I think is the most important message of the Bible. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16) Surely, this verse is unequivocal, a full and complete Truth that cannot possibly be misunderstood?

I'm honestly not so certain of that any more. At one time, I absolutely believed it was THE Truth, the ONLY Truth, and certainly the only Truth that MATTERED. Everything else in the Bible, I thought, was written around this single statement of absolute Truth. It didn't matter what day of the week you went to church, it didn't matter if you spoke in tongues, it didn't matter whether you were baptized or attended confession regularly - as long as you believed in Christ, everything else was just detail, important but still circumstantial.

I still believe that, all of that, but I have since become less convinced it is THE Truth as much as perhaps it is A Truth. I've realized, I think, that my understanding of "believes" could be less than complete. I've realized that the multiplicity of the Trinity adds ambiguity to the pronoun "Him." I've realized that God has never, throughout the Bible, given us simple answers. They are always, it seems, layered in complexity and meaning. I want this one statement, if nothing else in the Bible, to be simple, unequivocal, and fully True. I want it to be certain.

But faith is not about certainty.

I believe Jesus is the one true path to salvation. I've never been afraid to state that Truth for any who would listen. But I also know I can stretch that verse, that most important of all verses, into other meanings. If God can be a Trinity then God can be a Multiplicity, and to believe in One is to believe in All. No, I don't really believe that. But I doubt that Adam believed in spiritual death, either.

My simple truth is that I know all my truths are simple. I have many such truths, and I write both because I want to share them with others and because I think they're worth sharing. That's not humility, Stephen, but hubris. It's not self-doubt, and it's certainly not doubt of God's greater Truth. It's acknowledgement that simple truths can still have meaning without necessarily becoming Ultimate Truth.

I believe in the Truths I have been given, and share those where I can. I no longer believe they are whole Truths or the only Truths, and cannot in good conscience tell another man that his Truths are wrong. God could tell me that a stone is white, tell you that the same stone is black, and in His greater understanding - both could be equally true. I see that same duality and uncertainty reflected in science and the world everyday. Scientists, by and large, are rarely atheists. Particles are waves, everything is relative, nothing is certain, and maybe in God's eyes, stones really can be both black and white.

Without God's full understanding, I can only accept the Truths he gives me. Without seeing into another's heart, I can't deny their willingness to do the same. If those appear to be different Truths, I can never be quite certain the apparent contradictions aren't just a result of my limited understanding. Like Adam, I know only what I've been told, and I know I haven't been told everything.

Fortunately, faith is not about certainty.

I believe that I can get everything wrong, and He will make everything right. I believe the Hindu, Muslim, and Jew can get everything wrong, and He will make everything right. I believe the many different Truths, in ways beyond our ken, can be brought into a single Truth by His deeper, infinite understanding. I believe God's love is for everyone, not a select few, and every path, whether right or wrong in this temporal now, is a part of His plan, visible only with His patience.

How can this be possible? Obviously, I don't know, nor do I feel I need to know. Because I don't believe faith has ever been about certainty.

Faith is about trust.


Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


55 posted 03-06-2002 02:26 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth


"Opeth, none of the verses that you have stated here have been taken in their context and none of them, despite your understanding, are saying that salvation comes through our obeying the Law or through faith in Christ plus our obeying the Law. Reading and study must always be done in context so as to avoid inadvertant misinterpretation."


- With all due respect, they have been taken in context. You did not address, what the bible says, not what I say.  You, like so many other Christians are confused about what Paul was talking about with regards to the law. Didn't you read the above passage? Tell me how that was taken out of context...please do...I have been where you were at...I was stubborn and didn't want to change.

What is sin?  Didn't you read it? Do you not believe that to sin is to transgress the laws of God?  Do you think that is something that I wrote or want you to believe in? It is what the bible states, not me.

What you are not getting is this...it is not your law keeping that saves you. If you read the scriptures that I quoted with an open and objective mind and if you are truly being called, you would understand that the law that is God's law is fulfilled by love, the love that can only be obtained through the spirit of God.  And when that occurs it is not YOUR law keeping that saves you, oh no, you are mistaken. It is the gift of the Saviour...His Holy Spirit that comes inside you and KEEPS the SPIRITUAL LAW of God...not you keeping man-made laws (which included the laws of Moses)...

and I quote...John 14:23

"Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him."


so God will abide in yourself, don't you think that with God living within your heart He will keep His own laws?...for without God living in your heart, keeping of any law is useless.

Luke 16:15-17

"And He said unto them, "Ye are they who justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God"


Without God in your heart you are an abomination, quite clear to me.

(continuing) talking about God's spiritual law now...

"The Law and the Prophets were until John. Since that time the Kingdom of God (the gospel btw) is preached, and every man presseth into it."


and now the clincher...

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than one title of the law to fail."


No, God will not let his spiritual laws = his love to fail you after you have repented and accepted his son as your saviour. Simple, not confusing.

One has to remember that the bible is like a jigsaw puzzle. It is not intended to be read straight through to understand it. It is written the way it is for God's purpose, for the ones He is calling now. Christ even told his followers that much of what he preached was not for the masses to understand, that is why he spoke in puzzles or what is called parables. If he wanted everyone to understand He would of spoken it straight forward.

But don't take my word for it...Matt 13:10-12

"And the disciples came and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?" He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given."


and if you would continue on in Matt, verses 13-17, and if you understand that God is speaking to us today the same way...it is not for the majority to know now. He is not trying to save the world NOW.

Here is key verse to support what I just posted...John 6:45

"It is written in the Prophets: `And they shall all be taught by God.' Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned from the Father cometh unto Me.


- Did you get the key point? they shall ALL - everyone of us...taught be whom? A preacher? A priest? A Rabbi?  No, taught by GOD Himself. Ther will be no confusion when that takes place during the second ressurection.

Remember...

It is GOD inside you that keeps the spiritual laws of His. If there were no spiritual law of God there would be no such thing as a sin. You cannot define sin, only the Bible can and I showed you what it said.

"God's plan and message are simple and run through the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments."


- Of course it is, repent from your SINS, what is sin? The transgression of the LAWS of God...accept Christ as your saviour and you will then receive the Holy Spirit who will provide you with knowledge, spiritual knowledge of what sin is and what sin is not and God will keep the law for you, because of God's LOVE for you and His abiding inside of you. Very simple, indeed.

Not confusing, Satan is the author of confusion. The true church is in agreement.

"The truth that you seem to have arrived at is that truth = obeying the Law for righteousness. The truth that I see is Christ alone, as He has fulfilled the Law on our behalf. The entirety of scripture validates this."


- if you read my above remarks you will see that you misunderstood what I posted. It is not YOU obeying the laws in order to be saved...why do you think that Christ states that people call out his name, but they do not OBEY Him? Believing in a false gospel!!

Gal 1:6-7

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel.For this is not another; but there are some who trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ."


Jeez, that was happening already then, could you imagine how perveted the gospel has become with Satan deceiving the WHOLE WORLD (Rev 1:10) since this was written?

I will wrap it up with a little something from Mark. Here is where if one is truly called by the lord, they will understand what this is all about...

Mark 7:6-8

"He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.Therefore, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'

Now get this...

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold to the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other like things ye do."
  

Laying aside the commandment of God and holding onto the traditions of men...I could go into a whole other segment about this (Christmas, Easter, Sunday as the Sabbath) etc...Doctrines of men (our LAWS), or the LAW of God...

So there are Christians worshipping in vain because they don't obey God...why? Because God is not living inside their hearts and therefore his LOVE which includes the knowledge of His Spiritual LAW is not understood.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-06-2002 02:43 PM).]

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


56 posted 03-06-2002 09:05 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."  Romans 2:13

Okay, Opeth, this is the verse that you wanted me to address. May we read it in its full context so that we have the frame of reference that is needed for correct interpretation?
  
Romans 2

   11:For one man is not different from another before God.
   12: All those who have done wrong without the law will get destruction without the law: and those who have done wrong under the law will have their punishment by the law;
   13: For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers:
   14: For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves;
   15: Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval;
   16: In the day when God will be a judge of the secrets of men, as it says in the good news of which I am a preacher, through Jesus Christ.
   17: But as for you who have the name of Jew, and are resting on the law, and take pride in God,
   18: And have knowledge of his desires, and are a judge of the things which are different, having the learning of the law,
   19: In the belief that you are a guide to the blind, a light to those in the dark,
   20: A teacher of the foolish, having in the law the form of knowledge and of what is true;
   21: You who give teaching to others, do you give it to yourself? you who say that a man may not take what is not his, do you take what is not yours?
   22: You who say that a man may not be untrue to his wife, are you true to yours? you who are a hater of images, do you do wrong to the house of God?
   23: You who take pride in the law, are you doing wrong to the honour of God by behaviour which is against the law?
   24: For the name of God is shamed among the Gentiles because of you, as it is said in the holy Writings.
   25: It is true that circumcision is of use if you keep the law, but if you go against the law it is as if you had it not.
   26: If those who have not circumcision keep the rules of the law, will it not be credited to them as circumcision?
   27: And they, by their keeping of the law without circumcision, will be judges of you, by whom the law is broken though you have the letter of the law and circumcision.
   28: The true Jew is not one who is only so publicly, and circumcision is not that which may be seen in the flesh:
   29: But he is a Jew who is a secret one, whose circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 3
   1: How then is the Jew better off? or what profit is there in circumcision?
   2: Much in every way: first of all because the words of God were given to them.
   3: And if some have no faith, will that make the faith of God without effect?
   4: In no way: but let God be true, though every man is seen to be untrue; as it is said in the Writings, That your words may be seen to be true, and you may be seen to be right when you are judged.
   5: But if the righteousness of God is supported by our wrongdoing what is to be said? is it wrong for God to be angry (as men may say)?
   6: In no way: because if it is so, how is God able to be the judge of all the world?
   7: But if, because I am untrue, God being seen to be true gets more glory, why am I to be judged as a sinner?
   8: Let us do evil so that good may come (a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made), because such behaviour will have its right punishment.
   9: What then? are we worse off than they? In no way: because we have before made it clear that Jews as well as Greeks are all under the power of sin;
   10: As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness;
   11: Not one who has the knowledge of what is right, not one who is a searcher after God;
   12: They have all gone out of the way, there is no profit in any of them; there is not one who does good, not so much as one:
   13: Their throat is like an open place of death; with their tongues they have said what is not true: the poison of snakes is under their lips:
   14: Whose mouth is full of curses and bitter words:
   15: Their feet are quick in running after blood;
   16: Destruction and trouble are in their ways;
   17: And of the way of peace they have no knowledge:
   18: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
   19: Now, we have knowledge that what the law says is for those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all men may be judged by God:
   20: Because by the works of the law no man is able to have righteousness in his eyes, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
   21: But now without the law there is a revelation of the righteousness of God, to which witness is given by the law and the prophets;
   22: That is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all those who have faith; and one man is not different from another,
   23: For all have done wrong and are far from the glory of God;
   24: And they may have righteousness put to their credit, freely, by his grace, through the salvation which is in Christ Jesus:
   25: Whom God has put forward as the sign of his mercy, through faith, by his blood, to make clear his righteousness when, in his pity, God let the sins of earlier times go without punishment;
   26: And to make clear his righteousness now, so that he might himself be upright, and give righteousness to him who has faith in Jesus.

As you can see by reading this in context God is building up to the fact that all men, Jew and Gentile alike are all accountable to God, whether they were the Jews who had the Law given to them or whether they were the Gentiles without having known the Law, and that the Jew has no greater claim before God for having been given the Law if he doesn't live by it, and that those who can be justified in His sight, under the Law, are only those who perform it (and as we've seen elsewhere, it is performed by keeping it to perfection, which no one except Christ has ever done). God concludes in Romans 3:10 -20 that none do righteousness and then in Romans 3:21-26, God finally sums up by reavealing His solution for our problem.

Time nor space would allow for a disection of and then an "in context" study of all that you have proposed. So I hope that this at least sheds a bit of light on the danger of taking one verse from one place and then another from another place and building a theology in that manner. An honest study of any verse must be done in the setting of all that comes before and after it. You have to determine who was being spoken to, what covenant were those being spoken to living under when the words were spoken, as well as a detrmination of the theme of the particular book or chapter where the verses are found. Most of Christ's preaching, of course, was done to the Jews who were living under the old covenant, the covenant of Law. His main purpose was to expose to them their utter inability to make themselves acceptable in God's sight by performance of the Law. That was His purpose in "upping the anty", so to speak, by telling them, for instance, that it is not only the one who actually commits murder that is a murderer, but also the one who hates his brother. He wanted the Law to have its perfect work in them, that is, making them realize that they could never be good enough, and then see their need for a savior.

True, Christ often spoke in parables, but it would be erroneous to conclude that He spoke that way anywhere in the Bible than where it explicitly states that He did.

One more point: sin is not merely breaking God's Law. Sin was in the world before He gave the Law to Moses. Listen to this:

   17: For, if by the wrongdoing of one, death was ruling through the one, much more will those to whom has come the wealth of grace and the giving of righteousness, be ruling in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.
   18: So then, as the effect of one act of wrongdoing was that punishment came on all men, even so the effect of one act of righteousness was righteousness of life for all men.
   19: Because, as numbers of men became sinners through the wrongdoing of one man, even so will great numbers get righteousness through the keeping of the word of God by one man.
   20: And the law came in addition, to make wrongdoing worse; but where there was much sin, there was much more grace:
   21: That, as sin had power in death, so grace might have power through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Law was given to make wrongdoing worse! Sin came into the world by Adam, and therefore all sinned, even those who lived before the Law. God wanted people to see that they were sinful and just how sinful they were and gave them the Law to prove to them that they couldn't do it. That always was and always will be the purpose of the Law.

When a person believes on Christ for salvation, the Spirit of Christ comes to dwell within the believer. Not only are they eternally saved and secure, they have an inheritance of heavenly wealth living within them. The old person that they were has been crucified with Christ on the cross. Christ makes the believer a new creation in Him. As we enjoy intimate fellowship with Christ, and appropriate by faith His all sufficiency to live this life, He will actually live His life through the believer. And this is all of Him. The only time we can fail and fall into sin is when we take our focus off Him and try to live the godly life in our own strength. In fact, we are told that whatever is not of faith is sin. If I'm not relying on Christ for my performance, I am sinning, even if the deeds in and of themselves are good, right and honorable.

I have been taking the time to give scripture in context so that it may be rightly understood. You have consistently done just the opposite, taking a verse here and a verse there, always out of its context, and then accused me of being deceived in my understanding. You have not presented your case convincingly to me that I am buying into a lie of false Christian doctrine. I simply ask you to honestly read all that I have written, address each verse, and tell me where my understanding is faulty, as I have attempted to do with your presentations.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


57 posted 03-07-2002 08:36 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I have read the entirity of these passages many times. It is without a doubt in my mind that you would not change your ways of thinking even if I painstakingly went over every part of these passages, just as those Jews of Christ's time would not change the way that they believed the scripture and they were surely convinced that Christ was taking it out of context. I will sum it up for you. Paul was explaining the differences between the law (old laws, man's law, etc) of the jews and gentiles and their attempts in keeping those laws with the spiritual law of God, which if the Lord and God abide in them, will help them grow and understand and keep the law because of their love of the lord.

To sin is to break the laws of God. The bible says so. If sin is to break the laws of God, there must be laws that Christians must abide by and would willingly do so because they accepted Jesus, love their God, and God's spirit abides in their hearts providing guidance, strength and understanding.

Christ spoke of His Kingdom and that the Kingdom of God was at hand - that was the gospel.  A Kingdom has a King and people will obey their King. How do people obey their King without law? There must be laws that the people will abide by. Without laws their is no Kingdom, there is only Anarchy and chaos.

God is not trying to save the world today.
Some of you who read this may "get it" - then will know that you are being called. If not, don't fret it. Many will die and be "taught by GOD" when the second ressurection occurs.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-07-2002 08:38 AM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


58 posted 03-07-2002 08:48 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

PS Denise - I was once where you are now. Remember how Christ told the rich man that he had to give up everything and pick up his own cross to follow?

It is the same today. The true Christian will have to sacrifice much, very much, even family members if they do not believe. That is why Christ spoke of turning father against mother and husband against wives.

There is no easy way in becoming a true follower of Christ. This could mean that one would have to give up their position in their church and actually forsake their false church. To completely change their lives "rock your world" Christ will do. It is not an easy path, as Christ said that the path was narrow and the gate was wide...that is what He was talking about. Not that most won't be saved, most will...but for the few being called today to prophecise his TRUE message, it is for us a narrow path.

Myself, I am at crossroad. I know that logically there are only two answers for me.

1. That I was (unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it) one of the very few called by God to prophecise his TRUE message.  And if so, I believe I am failing Him. And if I do fail Him, my fate will be the Lake of Fire, where I will suffer the second and final death.

2. What was revealed to me is no different than what was revealed to others in the sense that it was conjured inside one's own mind. If that is the case, then I know for a fact that christianity is bogus just like the rest of the world's religions.

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


59 posted 03-07-2002 09:20 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Opeth,

I'm so sorry for you that you are living under such condemnation and fear that if you fail in your efforts that you will be assigned to the lake of fire. God's message is simple:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and will not come into condemnation, but has passed from death unto life."

I have asked God to give me a clean slate in my mind, wipe out any erroneous teachings based on the understandings of man (which can always be fallible). Christianity is not about doctrine (which has done more to divide people than to proclaim Christ), it is about Christ and what He has freely made available to all men through the New Covenant of grace.

If one believes that Jesus is God's Christ, then he will not come into condemnation, period, no matter his failings in this life, no matter his correct or erroneous doctrine. He is our blessed hope, and not hope in the sense of "maybe" but "certainty", producing a trust undergirded by His faithfulness.

The Book of Hebrews makes for profitable study in the differences between the Old and New Covenants. It can do nothing but bless the soul of all who read it and come to the understanding of all that it is saying.

I hope that you come to realize that rest that He has already given you.


Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


60 posted 03-07-2002 10:10 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Denise,

I appreciate your caring, but don't fret for me. I do not go around worrying about any of this. I don't believe in traditional christianity and will never partake in any of its doings.

As I told you, I was there, where you are now. I didn't ask for the revelations that I received, nope, never wanted them. I was happy just living the life as a one of a million christian men, going to church, celebrating Easter, Christmas, etc...It was not like I just got up one morning and said, "I am going to prove this is all wrong."

Either God's true Spirit moved me to begin seeking knowledge of His word, or it is all bogus and was formulated in my own mind...

but then if it was formulated in my own mind, how many others from the thousands of years in the past to the present, formulated their own beliefs of what God expects from us? And how many of those beliefs became accepted as fact and interpreted through the bible as fact? The early church fathers, their beliefs, from their own mind?

This goes back to the whose truth is true issue.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Christianity is the true religion, just about the entirity of those worshipping Christ are worshipping in vain through a false church preaching a perverted gospel deceived by Satan appearing as a minister of righteiousness.

But don't be upset about that because those followers are not being called and God is not trying to save them at this time.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-07-2002 11:02 AM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


61 posted 03-07-2002 11:12 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

False Christianity based on tradition of men, not the commandment of God.

2Tim 4:3-4

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts (also translate as pleasure/convenience). And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned toward fables."


Sound Doctrine - The spirtitual laws of God = 10 Commandments, God's Holy Days.

teachers - Today's theologians, preachers, priests, etc...equaling the scribes and pharisees of Christ's time.

turning from the truth - Loving their Lord through obeying Him and turning from sin.

turning towards fables - pagan customs, Christmas, Easter, Sunday worshipping, immortal soul doctrine, etc.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


62 posted 03-07-2002 12:03 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Opeth, Below is my understanding of these terms, and thus my understanding of the verse is vastly different than yours.


Sound Doctrine = Any doctrine that points to the all-sufficiency of Christ.

teachers = teachers

turning from the truth = taking one's focus off of Christ and His all-sufficiency.

turning towards fables = Anything that is not sound doctrine (see above).

But then since you have been where I am, I'm sure you know that already. I'm just listing my interpretation for others who may wish to see another way to see things than just the way you understand something to be.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


63 posted 03-07-2002 12:24 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

but those are just generalities, Denise.

You seem quite interested. How about us going from point A to get to point B. One can't get from point B from point D.

So let me ask you this.

Christ said that in vain do they worship me, believing in the doctrines of men.

What do you think he meant by that? Who do you think he was speaking to?

To me, it is clear that he was talking about our time. That there are Christians worshiping him in vain believing in doctrines of men.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-07-2002 12:28 PM).]

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


64 posted 03-07-2002 01:17 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Opeth, you will have to supply me with the verse so that I may go read it in context to determine who was being spoken to and in relation to what and then I will be able to give you my considered opinion. Thanks.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


65 posted 03-07-2002 02:39 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

False Christianity

Mark 7:6-8

“He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.Therefore, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold to the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other like things ye do."  


A dual prophecy for not only the people of Christ’s time, but for ours, which will be proved by other biblical verses.

2Cor 11:13-15

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.  And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.”

Who are these false apostles of today? Satan appears as a minister of righteousness = an angel of light. These false teachers under Satan will preach that Christ is the saviour, they are Christians.

Matt 24:4-5,11

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many.”

God expects us to search His words and put the pieces of the puzzle together in order to know the truth. If you are not called, you won’t be getting this. No doubt, that Christ is talking about our time along with His own. Come sheep, follow me, I preach Christ, yes He is God, learn my manmade doctrines, it is okay. Just believe in Jesus, nothing else matters.

In Galations we read that the false doctrines of men have already crept into the church.

Gal 1:6-7

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel. For this is not another; but there are some who trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ.”

It is clear that the false church, which is called the Mother Beast and her harlot offshoots in Revelations was already at work during this time…

2Thes 2:7-8

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—“

This is to take place during the Day of the Lord as prophesized in Revelations, but there is more…

Jude 1:3-4

“Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.  For there are certain men who have crept in unawares, who were foreordained of old for this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Certain men already creeping into the church perverting the truth…so long ago…is it any wonder why we read in Revelations 12:9

“…Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD…”

Except for his little flock…

Luke 12:32

“Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.”

I take that as the entire world, all of the world’s religions, except for His little flock. In 3John 1:9-10, we can see that certain men, who were the leaders of their local Christian churches were already changing and turning away from Christ…

“I wrote unto the church, but Diotrephes, who loveth to have preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Therefore if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words. And not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth those who would, and casteth them out of the church.”

True Christians being cast out of the church…already…man…is it any wonder just how far false Christianity has grown throughout the ages…Jesus forseen this and in Luke 6:46, we read…

“And why call ye Me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not the things which I say?”

Lord, Lord, I believe in you!

“Ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command you. “ (John 14:14)
“If ye love Me, keep my commandment(S).” (John 15:14)

And what commandments are those?

Why of course the 10 commandments. Christ himself created the 10 commandments.  But the Jews of Christ day were not keeping them in their hearts, strictly only in a legal sense. Paul spoke of this in great detail. Christ came to magnify the commandments, not do away with them.  As we read in 2 John 1:5-6…

“And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning: that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it”

Love = spiritual law = the 10 commandments of God (Jesus). If he abides in your heart, the Spirit of God will show you and provide you the knowledge and keep the law for you.  I have now gone in full circle. There is so much more evidence…I will finish with Revelation…22:12-14

“Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.“

You are blessed if you DO HIS COMMANDMENTS.  Why call him Lord if you don’t do the things that He says? You have to of course know what He says for you to do. It must be the same for each Christian, for there is only one Spirit of God.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


66 posted 03-07-2002 05:00 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Opeth said:

"1. That I was (unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it) one of the very few called by God to prophecise his TRUE message.  And if so, I believe I am failing Him. And if I do fail Him, my fate will be the Lake of Fire, where I will suffer the second and final death."

--But you fail Him precisely because you keep saying that you were called. A surgeon doesn't fix people by saying, "I'm a surgeon, I can fix you." He undertakes the operation. Throughout this thread, you use words and phrasings that strike me as arrogant (It takes one to know one. ), but I have to ask, are you a native born American citizen? I've met European scholars who speak like you and I've met Russian scholars who speak like you, but American scholars usually refrain from this (at least in textual criticism). Honestly, when you said:

"Easy to understand, can't get this one misinterpreted"

I dropped my jaw. I thought, where have you been the last thity years? Perhaps, you were being facetious and I missed that?

This in no way is meant to denigrate anything you say but it would help me to understand why you say it the way you do. If you haven't noticed yet, I'm big on context and contingency, and you're, from my point of view, bluntness might be better explained by cultural difference.

Then again, maybe not.   

======================

"2. What was revealed to me is no different than what was revealed to others in the sense that it was conjured inside one's own mind. If that is the case, then I know for a fact that christianity is bogus just like the rest of the world's religions."

--Logically, the first sentence in no way leads to the second. It's a possible analogy but not a logical proof.

========================

--Another problem I see in the way you speak is a misunderstanding of your medium. You're writing in an internet forum, this is not the same as a school, not the same as a pulpit, not the same as a uniform. You assert authority without the context of authority (I've seen this done at other websites and it drives me up a wall). The only thing you have to make your point is the words you use and the gradual image created by the words you have used, you can't rely on the "I know" factor.

--Don't belittle the way you make the message because the message is of urgent importance.

--Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not saying you can't assert something (Denise asserts, I assert, everybody asserts), but then the real work begins in backing it up. You don't back something up by arguing 'my years of study', 'my objectivity', or whatever, you back it up by doing the work of persuasion. As long as you sprinkle your back ups with phrases like the above and allusions to an elite chosen few (I know I'm in the minority, I know people will disagree, and, yes, even earlier phrases like 'intellectually superior'), you're just setting yourself up for a fall.  

--The above statements I've quoted would indicate that you don't want to fall.

Brad

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


67 posted 03-07-2002 09:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Mark 7:6-8

“He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.Therefore, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold to the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other like things ye do."  


A dual prophecy for not only the people of Christ’s time, but for ours, which will be proved by other biblical verses.


Again, in context, Opeth: Christ was speaking to the scribes and Pharisees who had watered down the pure and exacting demand of God's Law while at the same time priding themselves on their obedience to the their watered down version of the Law, excusing their own guilt and failure, while at the same time judging those around them who were not living up to the standards of their watered down version of the Law (traditions of men). Their worship was in vain because they weren't being honest before God, for if they were, they would have come to the conclusion that they were nothing but sinners themselves, no better than the ones that they had judged. If they had let the Law of God have its perfect work in them, they would have come to no other conclusion than that they could not perfectly obey (which was required for its fulfillment, as  we've seen before.) and they would have come to realize their need of a savior (the purpose of the Law, as we have already seen plainly stated in scripture, but for purposes of clarification we can read in Galatians 3:22-25:  But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law.)


2Cor 11:13-15

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.  And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.”

Who are these false apostles of today? Satan appears as a minister of righteousness = an angel of light. These false teachers under Satan will preach that Christ is the saviour, they are Christians.


Most likely, from "clues" in the chapter, particularly beginning in verse 20 they were the Judaizers who attempted to put the Christians under the Law if they wanted to be really right with God:
2 Corinthians 11:20-23: For you bear with anyone if he enslaves you, if he devours you, if he takes advantage of you, if he exalts himself, if he hits you in the face. To my shame, I must say that we have been weak by comparison, But in whatever respect anyone else is bold (I speak in foolishness), I am just as bold myself. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they servants of Christ (I speak as if insane)? I more so; in far more labors, in far more inprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.

I guess you could compare them today to either the religious person who has never actually come to faith in Christ and believes that his adherance to the Law is what makes them right with God, or you could possibly compare them to those who have believed on Christ and are true believers but they have one foot in the Old Covenant( = what must I do to earn God's blessings?) and one foot in the New Covenant (= Wow! Look at all that God has freely given me!)From the word "false", I'd have to go with the first possibility.

Matt 24:4-5,11

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many.”

God expects us to search His words and put the pieces of the puzzle together in order to know the truth. If you are not called, you won’t be getting this. No doubt, that Christ is talking about our time along with His own. Come sheep, follow me, I preach Christ, yes He is God, learn my manmade doctrines, it is okay. Just believe in Jesus, nothing else matters.


Of course God wants us to search His word, how else does one learn the truth that He has revealed. Now, how do you make the connection between Christ saying that there will be false Christs and that one of those false Christs will be proclaiming that Christ is God, believe in Jesus, nothing else matters and learning manmade doctines? First of all true Christians do not preach "nothing else matters". They preach Christ crucified for salvation. They preach that we have died to the Law so that we may be married to Christ. Christ comes to dwell within, live within the believer, and this is all of God. As we continually grow in the knowledge of His love and grace and keep our focus on HIM, we come to the place where we can realize His very divine life living through us. I'd be really careful in your estimation that such a person, called apart and sanctified by God, all of His doing, is the embodiment of anti-Christ. That sounds like nothing less than blasphemy, to me.

In Galations we read that the false doctrines of men have already crept into the church.

Gal 1:6-7

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel. For this is not another; but there are some who trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ.”


“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him, that called you into the grace of Christ, for another gospel." Did you read this part that I bolded here, Opeth? Have you really read this? Perhaps you need to read it once again.

It is clear that the false church, which is called the Mother Beast and her harlot offshoots in Revelations was already at work during this time…

Again, Opeth, in context: Those who were troubling the Galations and perverting the Gospel of Christ were the Judaizers. This has not a thing to do with the Beast and the harlot of Revelation, although it would not surprise me that the Beast and the harlot would indeed be the "descendants" of false professors and/or legalists who have never really come to faith in Christ.

2Thes 2:7-8

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—“

This is to take place during the Day of the Lord as prophesized in Revelations, but there is more…

Jude 1:3-4

“Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.  For there are certain men who have crept in unawares, who were foreordained of old for this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Certain men already creeping into the church perverting the truth…so long ago…is it any wonder why we read in Revelations 12:9

“…Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD…”

Except for his little flock…

Luke 12:32

“Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.”

I take that as the entire world, all of the world’s religions, except for His little flock. In 3John 1:9-10, we can see that certain men, who were the leaders of their local Christian churches were already changing and turning away from Christ…

“I wrote unto the church, but Diotrephes, who loveth to have preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Therefore if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words. And not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth those who would, and casteth them out of the church.”

True Christians being cast out of the church…already…man…is it any wonder just how far false Christianity has grown throughout the ages…Jesus forseen this and in Luke 6:46, we read…


You take the fact that there have been (and always will be, no doubt about that) people who misuse the grace of God even deliberately, to live a life of sin to be an indictment against all those who believe that salvation comes through faith in Christ? That doesn't even make sense, Opeth. We have all been guilty of abusing God's grace to one extent or another. As we grow in the wonderful and ever deepening awareness of His grace and love to us, we will be transformed through the renewing of our minds. But it doesn't happen through hanging the Law in front of your face. That just keeps a person bound up in their sin. And don't forget, there is the law of reap and sow....that will never change. God is never mocked. If I go up and smack someone in the face, more than likely I will be smacked back. It doesn't mean that I will perish in the Lake of Fire though.


“And why call ye Me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not the things which I say?”

Lord, Lord, I believe in you!


*sigh*  Context, Opeth, context: These were the ones who came before the judgment seat boasting of all that they had accomplished for Christ through their works, not trusting in Him for their salvation. His reply, "Depart from me, I never knew you." It was their lack of faith, not the presence of works that determined whether He knew them. They had plenty of works. What they lacked was faith. If they had faith, they would have performed their works from pure motives, but it still would have been their faith that produced their good deeds. As it was, all they had was works.

“Ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command you. “ (John 14:14)
“If ye love Me, keep my commandment(S).” (John 15:14)


Why did you add the (s)? The correct rendering is command. In context He is speaking of loving one another. And yes, we are His friends when we live in love.

And what commandments are those?

Why of course the 10 commandments. Christ himself created the 10 commandments.  But the Jews of Christ day were not keeping them in their hearts, strictly only in a legal sense. Paul spoke of this in great detail. Christ came to magnify the commandments, not do away with them.  As we read in 2 John 1:5-6…

“And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning: that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it”

Love = spiritual law = the 10 commandments of God (Jesus). If he abides in your heart, the Spirit of God will show you and provide you the knowledge and keep the law for you.  I have now gone in full circle. There is so much more evidence…I will finish with Revelation…22:12-14

“Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.“

You are blessed if you DO HIS COMMANDMENTS.  Why call him Lord if you don’t do the things that He says? You have to of course know what He says for you to do. It must be the same for each Christian, for there is only one Spirit of God.



Christ's command is to love. Christ's Law is the Law of Liberty. Christ gives the believer a new heart to replace the heart of stone and moves right on in and lives His life, His divine life, through these humble earthen vessels to His glory. Christ writes the law in our hearts, Christ gives us the desire to obey him. Christ does it all. The Spirit does come and live within, I agree, and He lives out His life through us, which is in accordance with His will and we will see that working out in us as we yield to Him. That doesn't mean that we will no longer sin, and it doesn't mean that we focus on Law, it means we keep putting our focus back on Him and trust Him to be our all in all.

You would do well to re-study the very Scriptures that you have been handling so carelessly. You will never come to the truth until you have the desire to divide the Word of Truth accurately and don't read into it with preconceived notions to try to prove or defend such positions. You do the very thing that you accuse Christians of doing.

I have taken the time to render everything that you have said in context to help those who may be confused by your inaccurate handling of scripture and to refute your assertions based on that inaccurate handling. I will not spend any more time on this type of presentation by you. If you want to study the word, honestly, then perhaps further discussion can be had. Until then, I see that continuing on the way it has been going, would be pointless.





[This message has been edited by Denise (03-07-2002 11:46 PM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


68 posted 03-08-2002 08:42 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

With all due respect Denise, this is not an issue of "Judai-zing."  It did not suprise me that you took that defense. For the past 15 or so years, that is probably the number one defense that preachers and priests have used to defend their beliefs that there is no law - Judaising (sp?).

That is what you keep telling me or at least appear to be telling me. I still don't get how their cannot be laws of God with sin in existence, since SIN is the transgression of the LAWS of GOD.

Jesus is a King, he has a Kingdom, it is in the hearts of true Christians. A Kingdom must have subjects and those subjects must obey their King. How could a subject obey their King without laws? No laws, no Kingdom, only anarchy and chaos (Satan btw is the author of chaos.)

Chaotic: That's a sin! No, it is not. Yes, it is. Celebrate Easter! Easter is Pagan. Worhsip on Sunday. Saturday is the true day. It doesn't matter what day, and so on and so on and so on...

One Spirit, One Church, believing the same.

As the OT was prophesized for the people of Jesus' time and our own, so is the NT prophecised for our time now and the end to come.

Let me ask you this Denise...

Did Christ's death on the cross save all of those who believe in Him?
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


69 posted 03-08-2002 09:08 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

To Brad...

1. good point, I doubt my "calling" that is why I state that I am. I have had sooooo many people tell me I am wrong about all of this, so I am failing not only because of what you pointed out, but for other reasons too.

Yes, I am a U.S. citizen. I am in the U.S. Navy. I have held positions with much responsibilities and authority.

I don't know. I can't remember what I said that about. To me, it was easy to understand. I forget that many who read these posts of mine won't get it because they are not being called, so maybe I put it that way because I am hoping that someone out there "gets it."

I am a blunt person. However, I am animated person when I speak. I am a designated Master Training Specialist in the Navy - I use much tone, body language, sarcasm, etc...one can't see that on the Internet. I am just a "young child" with regards to my abilities as an Internet communicator. I also type rather fast and don't always correctly get my message across baecause of that.

2. Not logical to you, but logical to me because of this reason - I know that I got down on my knees with humility and shame and asked to be shown the truth - and the truth that came to me is said by the majority of those of whom I shared it with - not to be true. Now knowing that there are others like me who have done the same thing - hundreds of thousands probably - and each came away with what they know in their hearts to be true. Logically, either only ONE is true or ALL are false. Or logically, there is more than ONE God. Because if there was only ONE God he would have only ONE truth. That is logical to me.

Funny you mentioned, school and uniform. I instruct and where a uniform. As for asserting authority, the Bible clearly states that the truth will be known by babes, not by Theologians. Christ's apostles included a fisherman and a mathmatician.

As for backing up what I posted. I have done so by using the only back up source needed in debating this issue - the Bible.

Example

The bible says that SIN is the transgressions of the LAWS of God. With that being quoted, I can say that there are LAWS of God to abide to. Again, to me it is so easy to understand this..."scary easy."
And when I see people like Denise not "getting it" - it is even more scary to me, because from reading her posts, there is no doubt that she is an educationg and intelligent person who wants to love the lord.

As for being the "elite few" - I don't look at it that way. The prophets of the Bible never looked at that way either. I don't take any pride or any "I'm better than you attitude" for what revealed to me. In fact, it is the opposite. I only said that to make a point. Of course, on the Internet, I am not doing a good job getting my message across.

As for the "intellectually superior" remark...it was in jest.

I appreciate you taking the time to write me. You handled this issue with class
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


70 posted 03-08-2002 10:32 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Here is a sample of how I came to believe the way that I do.

Now please, if you are going to read this do not "mix" issues.

When growing up as a Catholic attending a Catholic school, it was taught that eating pork, certain types of crustaceans, or what the Bible deems as "uclean foods" was against the Jewish law and therefore Jews still did not eat any of those such foods.

However, the priests and nuns who taught this also showed us that in the NT that law was done away with and cited ACT 11:7-18 (Peter's Dream/Vision) as proof.

Later in my life as a young "born again" Christian, it was taught the same way by the Protestant church/es that I attended.

Now as any of you reading know, I had a turning point in my life, where I started questioning answers given to me by Biblical authorities ~ my calling period.

I sought to find out what was separating the myriads of denominations who were supposed to be on the "same page" with regards to understanding truths.

Did Peter's dream tell the newly found Christian faith that they could eat unclean foods?

Absolutely not!

Acts 11:7-8

"And I heard a voice saying unto me, `Arise, Peter; slay and eat.' But I said, `Not so, Lord, for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.'


I reread this and thought to myself...This dream occured long after Christ's death. Christ spent much time with Peter and no doubt they ate together on numerous occasions. Peter was full of the Holy Spirit after Christ's death. Yet, Peter still did not ever eat any unclean food as of that night! Christ would certainly would of told Peter that this law is now done away with or the Holy Spirit once dwelling in Peter would of made it clear, but still Peter did not touch unclean foods long after Christ's death...

But the dream and this passage has nothing to do with unclean foods...continue...

Acts 11:9

"But the voice answered me again from heaven, `What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.'


What did God cleanse...food? Is this about eating unclean foods? NO!

Acts 11:11-18

"And behold, immediately three men had already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. And the Spirit bade me go with them,...


No doubt the Spirit of God was in Peter's heart.

"...doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house. And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house, who stood and said unto him, `Send men to Joppa and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter,


Jewish converts!

"...who shall tell thee words whereby thou and all of thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said, `John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.'If therefore God gave them the same gift as He did unto us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"


Yes, Peter was thinking that salvation was only to the gentiles, the dream showed Peter that salvation was to ALL!

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
      

But don't take my word for it, Peter says so in the Bible exactly what that dream meant.

Acts 10:28

"And he (Peter) said unto them, "Ye know that it is an unlawful thing for a man who is a Jew to keep company with or to come unto one of another nation.  (key phrase) But God hath shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean."


The dream had nothing to do with eating unclean foods, nothing at all. If one wants to provide truth that there are not any foods that God forbids us, they must find other biblical passages, because this one has nothing to do with it. We as mankind can inject our own opinions and thoughts to believe that Peter's dream could also mean unclean foods, but then we are adding something to the scriptures which just isn't there...and if we do that...where do we draw the line in adding meanings to passages?

Now me, just a simple navy man can understand this, yet biblical scholars, the teachers of the faith cannot understand?


[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-08-2002 10:46 AM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


71 posted 03-08-2002 11:11 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I think Denise's position is fairly clear to me. The old covenant was set aside for the new and no longer exists in the old form. If I grant her that assertion, everything else logically follows.

Opeth's position is far less clear to me, beyond the fact he believes the old law still exists. Even if I grant that assertion, I still don't know where it leaves me. In all that's been said, I've read conflicting views on what that law means to him.

A.) The OT law must be obeyed, else there is no salvation.

B.) The OT law will be obeyed if you are truly saved.

Under point A, salvation follows obedience. Under point B, obedience follows salvation. In both instances, the implication is that obedience is perfect.

While I agree with Brad that proof and persuasion are necessary, I think those are the cart and the premise is the horse, and we travel farther if we keep them in the right order.

Let's forget about proof for a minute. Can you clearly and succinctly just state what you believe to be the truth, Opeth?
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


72 posted 03-08-2002 11:28 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

The truth as in what? Please clarify your question.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


73 posted 03-08-2002 11:49 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Ron said,

"I think Denise's position is fairly clear to me. The old covenant was set aside for the new and no longer exists in the old form."


- To say that the OT was set aside for the NT is jaw-dropping for me to hear when coming from a Christian. The OT has much to do with the "end time" and our days that we live in now. Many prophesies in the OT are for us here and now. I believe it to be quite prejudicial against the Jews that the OT is thought of that way. But besides that...You all may not even know...we are all descendants of the Israelites, some actually physically and if being a Christian ~ spiritually too.

"Opeth's position is far less clear to me, beyond the fact he believes the old law still exists."


- The old law? What is the old law that you are talking about? I believe that the spiritual law exists and only the spiritual law.


"A.) The OT law must be obeyed, else there is no salvation."


- Incorrect.

"B.) The OT law will be obeyed if you are truly saved."


- What do you mean by OT law? The 10 Commandments, the laws of Moses, etc?

I will try to explain it as simply as I can.

1. Jesus came to fullfill and magnify the laws of God. To proclaim that the Kingdom of God is at hand! The Gospel! But let's stick to the issue at hand.

2. Jesus The King of Kings, died and was ressurected and His Kingdom is in our hearts for now.

3. The Spirit of God/Jesus dwells in true Christians heart.

4. A King and Kingdom has laws that we must obey, otherwise their is no way we can do what Jesus' says to do.

5. The spiritual law = love = will be made known to those true Christians when God abides in the true Christian's heart and will keep the law for the Christian.

6. All true Christians are in agreement because they are under ONE Spirit.

7. Because the Christian loves God and accepting the LIVING Saviour into their hearts they will abide by the laws of God.

8. Those laws were summed up by Christ Himself ~ love your neighbor and your God = The 10 commandments.  

Any other law that Paul talks about has nothing to do with the spiritual law. In fact, if you read the quotes that I posted, it IS quite clear that Paul was speaking of the Spiritual Law and manmade laws.

Once more, to SIN is to "transgress the LAWS of GOD." Without LAWS (spiritual) there cannot be SIN. Without SIN there is no need for salvation.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-08-2002 11:55 AM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


74 posted 03-08-2002 01:17 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

7. Because the Christian loves God and accepting the LIVING Saviour into their hearts they will abide by the laws of God.

8. Those laws were summed up by Christ Himself ~ love your neighbor and your God = The 10 commandments.


That was the succinct part I was looking for, Opeth. You believe, then, that the Ten Commandments will be obeyed by Christians because they have Christ in their heart. Your position falls under point B, then, which is at least a little easier to grasp. Obedience follows salvation, and the obedience is the result of love, not fear. So far, and in spite of your seeming attempts to suggest otherwise, I don't disagree.

Is the obedience perfect? What are the consequences if the obedience is less than perfect? Again, I'm not looking for proof, just a position I can understand.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> What exactly is Christianity?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors