How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Is Disease Given to Us by God?   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Is Disease Given to Us by God?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


0 posted 02-24-2002 10:24 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine


I've asked Silver Streak to join me here for a discussion of his explanation of why there is disease in the world. Please don't comment until he has a chance to join me. thanks!

Here is a link to the beginning of this discussion:
' http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum25/HTML/003069.html

[This message has been edited by Poet deVine (02-24-2002 10:25 PM).]

Professor Gloom
Member Elite
since 07-23-2000
Posts 3074
of Depression


1 posted 02-24-2002 10:52 PM       View Profile for Professor Gloom   Email Professor Gloom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Professor Gloom's Home Page   View IP for Professor Gloom

I can understand your wanting to wait
And if this interferes too much with your discussion
Please feel free to delete it.

Point 1
Most discussions on topics such as this, resolve nothing
With neither side able to convince or understand the opposing view.
It’s a faith thing.

Point 2
Definitions of God’s creation come into play,
Whoa, that makes for a heavy topic all by itself.
Probably will be best to state the nature of the creation beliefs you have,
Then the muddle can continue from there.

Point 3
The Plan of God for man, i.e. original sin.
Did he place our evils for us to find by not following the proper paths.

Well, I’ll leave this pointed discussion,
And return to check and see how it went tomorrow.
Time for this old man to go rolling home.

Gloom
Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


2 posted 02-24-2002 10:54 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Thank you, Poet deVine for inviting me into this discussion. I think you have phrased your question well. Why is there disease in the world?

First let me suggest that based on my study of Holy Scripture, I have asked myself the same question, many times. As we are taught that God created everything, and it was good.

And we are taught that God is Light, Love and Purity.

How can God create all things perfect, and be completely pure, and yet we suffer from disease.

My comments result from a combination of studying scripture, while meditating with God, believing that revelations by the Holy Spirit, promised by Christ to the Apostles, would reveal  connections of truth to explain descrepancies or errors of commission or omission in Holy Scripture. I use Logic, a formal form of Philosopy to verify and validate the results of my inquiry, as I firmly believe that all truth is verifiable!

The beliefs that I am arriving at using these methods are surprising and disturbing. I shall not enumerate all of them at the beginning as the discourse would be to lengthy.

But on the question posed, I concluded that God did not create imperfect flesh that would deteriate with disease. Instead I conclude that God created all things perfect. And God is Spirit, and I conclude that God's creations were Spirits with maps of perfection, all designed to perfectly interact together, as I believe that all life is connected through God.

And by reviewing some ancient manuscripts I have concluded that Adam, God's first man, was given tools to do marvellous things. I believe that Adam had tools to convert Spirit energy to matter, according to God's program, and also was given freedom of choice to follow or disobey God's Will. This was necessary to ensure that man would choose God with free will. And I believe that in the Garden of Eden, when Satan, God's Angel of Darkness, disclosed to Eve the powers of God in man, that Adam, not Eve sinned. I conclude that Adam created flesh bodies for himself and his wife, and modified God's perfect plan in order to selfishly create bondage empowering himself and the imperfectness of Adam's created flesh caused an imbalance in nature.

I believe that all life created by God is integrated and to keep the life systems in perfect purity, any imbalace is self correcting. And these self correcting mechanisms are what we call disease. The are designed to cleanse creation by absorbing and eliminating all imperfections.

I will try to answer questions. But keep in mind that my ideas are not founded nor based on man's literature. As I go only to God for insight and wisdom. And primarily use Scripture to validate my understandings and hypotheses. Although I do read a wide variety of works, and am a retired information technology scientist/mathematician by trade.  
-newell
  

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-24-2002 10:59 PM).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


3 posted 02-24-2002 11:20 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay...sigh, here I am.

I think the amazing quality of life is that we are not born perfect--we are born of FLESH--which dies daily in the physical, and regenerates more optimistically, in the metaphor as well as the flesh.

Prof, perhaps it is so, that some can never meet eye to eye, but you have to try...what else is there to do?

And newell, I do agree with you in an abstract sense, that we are born "unimpressed"--a very different concept than perfection. I do not think we are born perfect, would that we were already perfect, there would be no need for physicality lessons. (according to my admittedly limited view)

But I am very glad to find you here tho. I think of you as a good poet, and sometimes neglect a reply because the content spurs me on to a metaphysical discussion---and this is one of the places for such.

Oh, came back to ask about this:

" And by reviewing some ancient manuscripts"

I would very much appreciate it if you'd share here. I am fascinated with such literature, and if you have found something, I would surely love to check into it!  

[This message has been edited by serenity (02-24-2002 11:29 PM).]

Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


4 posted 02-25-2002 12:14 AM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Karen, I'm so very glad that you are back. You seem to be very hungry for truth in these matters, and while all I can do is feed you a few ideas to help you along your journey, as truth is a never ending search, I am thrilled by your zeal in looking for answers.

May I refer you to one site, http://www.lightofchrist.net/ where you may find links to some interesting works of God's marvels including documents describing Abraham's knowledge of Adam's tools.
((Karen))
-newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


5 posted 02-25-2002 12:27 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Can we discuss one issue at a time? I think if we get distracted, no purpose will be served by the discussion.

quote:

I believe that all life created by God is integrated and to keep the life systems in perfect purity, any imbalace is self correcting. And these self correcting mechanisms are what we call disease. The are designed to cleanse creation by absorbing and eliminating all imperfections.



Now, does this mean that if someone is born with a disease that may kill them, it's God's plan to keep mankind pure(perfect)?


Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


6 posted 02-25-2002 12:38 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Tell a two-year-old not to put their hand on the hot stove and then turn your back for about thirty seconds (the closest we can really come to giving a kid "free will"). Did you just give that child a second degree burn?
Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


7 posted 02-25-2002 10:11 AM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

"Now, does this mean that if someone is born with a disease that may kill them, it's God's plan to keep mankind pure(perfect)?"

A very good question, Sharon!

First, I believe that only spirits really exist. And disease does not kill the spirit; disease only makes spirits cry and then improve!

To add, let me say that I believe that all life is only one body, the body of God. And God's Body is All Spirits, And in order to sustain Life, God's Power must continue to flow throughout. To remain alive, all Spirit Parts must be connected by Love in a magnetic process I think of as Spiritual Physics.  

And each human being is only a spirit cell in the big body of God, as are animals, plants and all other living beings. I believe that God's body, therefore is a fusion of many spirits, each with a planned special function in God's overall plan of Creation.

At the Garden of Eden, I believe that God allowed Adam, the Spirit of Man, to begin a Creation process of strengthing spirits, and ensuring their connection, starting with Eve, The Spirit of Woman. And so God allowed Adam to create flesh bodies to capture spirits. And Adam, believing thoughts he learned from Satan, God's Angel of Purification, that he, Adam was as God.

Adam freely chose to attempt to use God's Creation tools to satisfy his own lust by trying to capture spirits into flesh bodies that he made. God knew he would do this. It was part of Creation's purification plan.

This resulted in Adam's spiritual communication breaking away from God, temporarily, and initiated a short process (in God time) of refining The Spirit of Man into the purity needed for God's Perfection.

God did not plan disease, per se. Disease, as I understand it, is simply an ugliness in physical bodies that irritates spirits, but continues only for a short time during the purification process of man. And all of the pain we dwell on results from being captured in flesh containers, given to us by Adam, God's first man. This pain teaches us to hate the lust of man and search to God for our own purification through Love.

And as new broken, imperfect spirit parts are generated during the birth process, man lives on with God's life and spirit, still in every cell, searching diligently to find new ways to ease pain, heal disease, and stop its spread, as men of cloth seek God in prayer for healing, all natural and necessary parts to God's marvellous plan of Creation.

Remember, there is no magic to Creation. Everything comes about in a natural, explainable, orderly process, as God fulfills His Plan, purifying us all as we are lead to fulfill God's desire for One Kingdom of connected (Loving) illuminated (Lighted) purified Cells in One Body, The Body of Christ, God's Spririt of Love.

So, as in the sense that you do not make dirt when you wash your food, God did not create disease when he creates purity in His Body, although dirt is needed to grow food and disease is necessary to show where purity and healing are needed.

Again, only spirits really exist for eternity. Our physical bodies are merely throw-away shells, that die and decay back to dust.

Make any sense, whatsoever?

These are my beliefs, opinions if you like. I hope they motivate you to continue thinking and searching beyond everything we have ever been taught in a marvellous quest for Truth.

May God bless you abundantly,

Silver Streak      



Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 11:20 AM).]

Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


8 posted 02-25-2002 10:34 AM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Ron, I don't quite understand your statement unless you are perhaps commenting that some people might advocate giving a child total free will. I would agree that this would not be a good thing to do, as God teaches us to take our responsibilities of caring and nurturing children very seriously. And God has given women, God's Crown Jewels, very special and magnifcent nurturing abilities.

My words, here, are only meant to be descriptive of culminating hypotheses developing in an ongoing search for eternal truths. And I believe that all hard conclusions we make at this time, serve only to close our windows to understanding prematurely, which I would consider counterproductive in the eternal search for truth.

I believe that God reveals His Magnificent Plan in very small bites to a wide selection of souls in many ways, through many filters, as we are slowly and carefully taught God's Magnificence in order to prepare us to sing Glorious Praise in chorus, one sweet day throughout the heavens, where we all live in a beautiful spectrum of frequencies. Spirits, not flesh!

God bless you, abundantly,

Silver Streak

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher


[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 11:24 AM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


9 posted 02-25-2002 11:27 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

No, that's definitely not what I meant. When the child put his hand on the stove, the adult wasn't responsible for the consequences. The child chose the burns, albeit unknowingly. This is a weak analogy, because children cannot be given "free will" in the same sense that God gave that gift to man. The point, nonetheless, is that disease comes not from God, but from Adam's choices. " … thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Suggesting that Adam and Eve existed first as Spirits rather than flesh is an interesting theory, one with a bit of a new age flavor. I think there's quite a bit of Biblical evidence to suggest otherwise. Personally, I've never quite understood humanity's fascination with the immaterial, as it seems to me the material is quite miraculous enough.
Professor Gloom
Member Elite
since 07-23-2000
Posts 3074
of Depression


10 posted 02-25-2002 11:45 AM       View Profile for Professor Gloom   Email Professor Gloom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Professor Gloom's Home Page   View IP for Professor Gloom

I kind of like Ron’s injection,
Gives the idea of free will a twist,
Is God the Father and we the children
That in our innocent bliss are able to wander into danger,
Know that we must feel the pain of the fire before we understand
The Danger?

“Point 3
The Plan of God for man, i.e. original sin.
Did he place our evils for us to find by not following the proper paths.” Gloom

“I believe that Adam had tools to convert Spirit energy to matter, according to God's program, and also was given freedom of choice to follow or disobey God's Will.” Silver Streak

No matter how you define it, Man did the original sin, is that a fair evaluation?

“I conclude that Adam created flesh bodies for himself and his wife, and modified God's perfect plan in order to selfishly create bondage empowering himself and the imperfectness of Adam's created flesh caused an imbalance in nature.” Silver Streak

Now this is a little tough for me to take, the circular logic in this is too much.
Adam the creator, just didn’t get it right although he was made in the image of the perfect God.
And God did know this was going to happen, although he knows all.
Reminds me of the concept of time warp from Science Fiction.

This seems to one of those type questions, I’ll ask him next time I see him,
Because it’s beyond my comprehension


Gloom
Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


11 posted 02-25-2002 12:24 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Ron,

"No, that's definitely not what I meant. When the child put his hand on the stove, the adult wasn't responsible for the consequences. The child chose the burns, albeit unknowingly. This is a weak analogy, because children cannot be given "free will" in the same sense that God gave that gift to man. The point, nonetheless, is that disease comes not from God, but from Adam's choices. " … thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." "

I agree. Although I also believe that God knew Adam would make the choice he did. More like carefully allowing a child touch a hot Christmas tree bulb to discover the reality of heat.

===

"Suggesting that Adam and Eve existed first as Spirits rather than flesh is an interesting theory, one with a bit of a new age flavor. I think there's quite a bit of Biblical evidence to suggest otherwise. Personally, I've never quite understood humanity's fascination with the immaterial, as it seems to me the material is quite miraculous enough."

Indeed the material has always fascinated humanity to the point where virtually our total focus has been diverted away from the true nature of God. And this, I believe is the beautiful lure of evil. We are quick to worship the material, and abandon looking at Our True God, The Spiritual. And so we concentrate on, seek pleasure in and suffer from things of little importance. Things that are temporary and will quickly evaporate into smoke.

Here are a few Scripture references:

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Matthew 4:1 " Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. "

Matthew 10:20 " for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."

Matthew 27:50 " And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit."

Luke 23:46 "Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last."

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"   Note: That all flesh life requires water to sustain itself..

John 3:34 "For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

John 4:23 " Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. "

John 6:63 " The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

John 16:15 " All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

John 20:22 "And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. "

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


12 posted 02-25-2002 02:12 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay. I'm lost and I admit it. I am not quite sure what it is you are trying to say Newell. And as always, when I get confused, I tend to rely on my own experience.

My father died of lung cancer last year.
I do not believe that a God, however well-intentioned, killed him. I strongly suspect that it had something to do with my father's addiction to cigarettes. (sometimes as much as three packs a day, for over forty years) I think that sort of reinforces Ron's hot stove analogy. But I am still open to new ideas. I would just like them a little clearer.
Interloper
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 11-06-2000
Posts 8628
Deep in the heart


13 posted 02-25-2002 02:19 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Newell,

I don't exactly know what you are trying to convey by your last post except that God is spirit. That is presumed by the Trinity or Triune of God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit (Ghost).

With one exception, all your references use the Greek word "Pneuma" or Holy Spirit.  Your quotation for John 16:15, however, does not contain that reference.  Instead, it refers to He (God) whom you may take as a spirit, in translation, as you wish.

God can be anything and to limit Him to a spirit is improper.  In fact, God is everything.

Your reference to water is a good one except in this context it refers to what we now call baptism.  Even the ancient Jews used water in a form of confirmation process.

I believe you are saying the same thing, but you confused me with your scriptural references.

I believe you are drawing a distinction between the "soul" of man, the Holy Spirit, and the flesh yet I believe you are muddying up the water somewhat.

The soul of man comes in two types ... "saved' and "unsaved."

The Holy Spirit is only received into a "saved" soul.

The flesh is our earthly body and it is indeed susceptible to disease.  Since God created all things, disease is His responsibilty and is part of His plan.

I look forward to your response.

[This message has been edited by Interloper (02-25-2002 05:59 PM).]

Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


14 posted 02-25-2002 02:47 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Gloom,

Thank you for your words of wisdom. Forgive me for taking so long to reply. My wife, an angel from God, one of those jewels, God loans us sent me on an errand. And when she says, boy, fly, I say yes dear, how high?

"I kind of like Ron’s injection,
Gives the idea of free will a twist,
Is God the Father and we the children
That in our innocent bliss are able to wander into danger,
Know that we must feel the pain of the fire before we understand
The Danger?'

I think that God lets us come to him in any way that we choose. Father, Mother, Friend, Lover, Friend, any way to complete our own incomplete impression of our selves. Any way that will bring us into His Complete Love. Although I fully recognize the Christianity Template portrays God as a Father, as Christ prays, "Our Father which art in heaven.

But God in all of Omniscience is all beings.  And there is no one Worship Template that completes our understanding of God. There is no language capable of describing God. And anyone who believes that the complete whole truth of God is written in one or a set of Holy Scriptures is as blind as the men that Christ returned sight to.  

And, as far as pain, I believe pain is only an investment in a reward of joy that someday we will receive.  And the purpose of flesh may be to allow us to be to feel this pain able through our sensory abilities.  Silver

“Point 3
The Plan of God for man, i.e. original sin.
Did he place our evils for us to find by not following the proper paths.” Gloom

I believe that man is but one small particle in God's overall plan. I believe that heaven is aglow in an amazing multitude of fiery spirits blazing about as gods, angels and Holy Spirits singing praises to God.  I believe that man has created for himself a huge illusionary view that we are somehow magnificent, and God's most important creation in a view that will that some day burn in smoke. Bull offensive word deleted by Moderator! But God does love us very much and blesses us abundantly, as God loves all Creation in a beautifully integrated glorious way.  Silver.

“I believe that Adam had tools to convert Spirit energy to matter, according to God's program, and also was given freedom of choice to follow or disobey God's Will.” Silver Streak

No matter how you define it, Man did the original sin, is that a fair evaluation?

A good way to back reference man's exercising his free choice, selfishness in lust. Silver.

“I conclude that Adam created flesh bodies for himself and his wife, and modified God's perfect plan in order to selfishly create bondage empowering himself and the imperfection of Adam's created flesh caused an imbalance in nature.” Silver Streak

Now this is a little tough for me to take, the circular logic in this is too much.
Adam the creator, just didn’t get it right although he was made in the image of the perfect God.
And God did know this was going to happen, although he knows all.
Reminds me of the concept of time warp from Science Fiction.

This seems to one of those type questions, I’ll ask him next time I see him,
Because it’s beyond my comprehension

Gloom

Circular logic? Subtract one from the first day of time. What day is it? Add one to the last day of time. What day would that be? Is all time circular? Was Adam created complete, or did God simply give birth to an extension of God's Spirit with a program to further creation. And as God is in all life, are we all still creating as extensions of God? And as God fires this magnificent indescribable servomechanism, how can it fail to adapt to the course of its God, who knows the end result?

Look in the mirror. Is it possible that the flesh looking back at you is fired by God's Spirit, in you? Ask your self truly for the answer is likely within you. Silver

Thank you Gloom for your wonderful response.

Silver Streak.

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher


[This message has been edited by Poet deVine (02-25-2002 05:03 PM).]

Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


15 posted 02-25-2002 03:08 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Karen,

"My father died of lung cancer last year.
I do not believe that a God, however well-intentioned, killed him. I strongly suspect that it had something to do with my father's addiction to cigarettes. (sometimes as much as three packs a day, for over forty years) I think that sort of reinforces Ron's hot stove analogy. But I am still open to new ideas. I would just like them a little clearer."

I'm sorry my words confuse you. And I am deeply sorry that you lost your father to lung cancer.

But I believe that his physical body quit because of toxins, partly from his cigarette smoking, destroying his immune system which was designed to repair all damaged cells.

Our physical body is programmed to replace impaired cells, but when the replacement mechanism is also impared, our body still tries to correct for failures. But then we may generate more impaired cells in a run away cell impairment loop, that we called cancer. I believe that all disease comes from our flesh being imperfect. And these imperfections are carried through generations and widen as new influences and failures occur.

This is simply a gone awry chemical process in a larger scheme of things, but I believe that the root of all such happenings originated when Adam made choices in the Garden of Eden to selfishly change God's original program for life. And converted spiritually energy to flesh, imperfectly.

Simply, like a child, he went ahead on his own without letting God show him how to make perfect bodies. I believe that Adam disobeyed God when he learned of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and believed an illusion that he, Adam, could go it alone without God, and could satisfy his own lustful desires and control other spirits with containers of flesh. And so now we get sick!

I hope this is not too confusing.

Newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


16 posted 02-25-2002 03:22 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

The only thing that is confusing me is finding your answer to the question posed...
I can't seem to find the forest for the trees.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


17 posted 02-25-2002 03:25 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, I'm out of my league here; I find the interpretation interesting as well, but as I read this Plato and Aristotle keep popping in my head.

Combine Plato's ideas of Form/degeneration and the Cave/shadows, Aristotle's tendency to see all things as returning to their original place, add a bit of atomism and then interpret Scripture and this seems pretty close to what you get.

Curious, Silver Streak, what form of Logic are you referring to?

Anyway, like I said, don't really know what to do here, but thought I'd offer a different way of looking at this.

Oh, by the way, I'm pretty much following Popper's interpretation of Aristotle and Plato. If you want to check quickly, you can look at the Aristotle chapter in Popper's "The Open Society and Its Enemies, v.2".

Good luck,
Brad    
Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


18 posted 02-25-2002 03:40 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Interloper,

Thanks for joining in. I very much welcome your knowledge and wisdom, here. I am not learned in Greek, nor Hebrew, and so I need all of the help I can get. And I deeply respect you knowledge of Scripture and your wisdom, thereof.

"I don't exactly know what you are trying to convey by your last post except that God is spirit. That is presumed by the Trinity or Triune of God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit (Ghost).

With one exception, all your references use the Greek word "Pneuma" or Holy Spirit. Your quotation for John 16:15, however, does not contain that reference. Instead, it refers to He (God) whom you make take as a spirit, in translation, if you wish.

God can be anything and to limit Him to a spirit is improper. In fact, God is everything."

I was simply trying to show how important I believe it is to focus on spiritual existence first and foremost. As I believe that all matter is indeed of God's energy through conversion from Spiritual Energy. And I believe that in all cases the Spirit came first and all matter is simply spiritual residue created in a conversion of spiritual energy. Silver.

"Your reference to water is a good one except in this context it refers to what we now call baptism. Even the ancient Jews used water in a form of confirmation process.

I believe you are saying the same thing, but you confused me with your scriptural references."

I believe that even ancient Jews did not understand the full importance of water in creation. I believe that water is an electricity conductor. Spirits need water to process spirit information the essence of life.  And so water confirms life, which indeed lets spirits function and play. Silver

"I believe you are drawing a distinction between the "soul" of man, the Holy Spirit, and the flesh yet I believe you are muddying up the water somewhat.

The soul of man comes in two types ... "saved' and "unsaved." "

I believe that the soul of man exists in two conditions, pure which you call "saved" and impure which you call "unsaved".  And that in order for an unpure spirit to become pure, again, God's Spirit of Love must cleanse the impurities through a process we call Salvation. Repenting, releasing all bondage to magnetic pulls away from God resulting an a magnetic attraction of Love to God, connecting the soul of man into the eternal body of God thought Christ.  Silver  

"The Holy Spirit is only received into a "saved" soul."

Yes! Impurities keep our spiritual windows closed. They must be opened by cleansing by God's Spirit of Love, The Christ. Silver

The flesh is our earthly body and it is indeed susceptible to disease. Since God created all things, disease is His responsibilty and is part of His plan.

Responsibility is a term that implies a state of irresponsibility could exist.

I think that the term, responsibility, was invented by man to describe his imperfect distrust of other spirits whereby man thought he needed to establish controls and measurement of righteousness.  I do not believe such concepts as responsibility are of God.  God is Love, Light and Purity.

I do believe that disease is a wonderful part of God's plan. Have we simply been taught about it wrongly? When spirits are purified, and die young, are they possibly better off. Is it a curse to live a long time? I just ask these questions as I fully believe that most of what we have been taught through out the ages is wrong. A square earth. The earth in the center of the universe. Etcetera.

How many other myths must be destroy before we learn the truth of God?

Newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


19 posted 02-25-2002 03:49 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Yes, Karen,

It is highly likely that your Father's earthly death was related to his addiction to cigarettes. He had to live (die) with the consequences of his actions as we all do.
-newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


20 posted 02-25-2002 03:54 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Brad,

Thanks for dropping by. Can't say much about the thoughts of Plato and Aristotle. The Logic I am referring to is simple inference, as you might study in Philosophy 101 or 102.

Newell  

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


21 posted 02-25-2002 04:22 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

wow.

talk about the punisment far outweighing the crime - thousands of years of diseases because some dude ate an apple.

and i thought my parents were harsh.
Silver Streak
Member Elite
since 01-02-2002
Posts 3711
FL, USA


22 posted 02-25-2002 04:30 PM       View Profile for Silver Streak   Email Silver Streak   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Silver Streak's Home Page   View IP for Silver Streak

Christopher,

Dude, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Silver Streak

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


23 posted 02-25-2002 04:59 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I'm a bit confused by the religious rhetoric stemming from a simple question..but I'm easily confused. Are you telling me that the bacteria which causes colds is a beneficient and necessary mechanism for purifying the physical and spiritual selves? In what way? When I catch a cold, usually from some helpful person sneezing all over me, the only possible benefit I could see is the appreciation of life without a cold. If I look at another event objectively using this rationalistic logic, my paternal great-grandparents were spiritually made whole rather quickly: they died of measles shortly after arriving in the U.S.; they were in their young 30's. So too would be the young college student who contracts bacterial menengitis while living in an on-campus dormitory. Good thing I was born with bronchitis...in this life, I've been perfecting my spirit since birth.  

Note that this post is not meant to be perceived as 'angry' or antagonistic, but confused. I realize anger and confusion are close cousins.

Alicat

“It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.”  Charles Darwin

[This message has been edited by Alicat (02-25-2002 05:00 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


24 posted 02-25-2002 05:16 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, uh, yeah you do. The first three rules of logic begin with Aristotle.

Beginning analytic philosophy has a tendency to deemphasize its historical roots, but it's still there.

Okay, I'm off to reread Genesis.

Brad
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Is Disease Given to Us by God?   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors