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Poet deVine
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Hurricane Alley

0 posted 2002-02-24 10:24 PM



I've asked Silver Streak to join me here for a discussion of his explanation of why there is disease in the world. Please don't comment until he has a chance to join me. thanks!

Here is a link to the beginning of this discussion:
' /pip/Forum25/HTML/003069.html

[This message has been edited by Poet deVine (02-24-2002 10:25 PM).]

© Copyright 2002 Poet deVine - All Rights Reserved
Professor Gloom
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since 2000-07-23
Posts 3082
of Depression
1 posted 2002-02-24 10:52 PM


I can understand your wanting to wait
And if this interferes too much with your discussion
Please feel free to delete it.

Point 1
Most discussions on topics such as this, resolve nothing
With neither side able to convince or understand the opposing view.
It’s a faith thing.

Point 2
Definitions of God’s creation come into play,
Whoa, that makes for a heavy topic all by itself.
Probably will be best to state the nature of the creation beliefs you have,
Then the muddle can continue from there.

Point 3
The Plan of God for man, i.e. original sin.
Did he place our evils for us to find by not following the proper paths.

Well, I’ll leave this pointed discussion,
And return to check and see how it went tomorrow.
Time for this old man to go rolling home.

Gloom

Silver Streak
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2 posted 2002-02-24 10:54 PM


Thank you, Poet deVine for inviting me into this discussion. I think you have phrased your question well. Why is there disease in the world?

First let me suggest that based on my study of Holy Scripture, I have asked myself the same question, many times. As we are taught that God created everything, and it was good.

And we are taught that God is Light, Love and Purity.

How can God create all things perfect, and be completely pure, and yet we suffer from disease.

My comments result from a combination of studying scripture, while meditating with God, believing that revelations by the Holy Spirit, promised by Christ to the Apostles, would reveal  connections of truth to explain descrepancies or errors of commission or omission in Holy Scripture. I use Logic, a formal form of Philosopy to verify and validate the results of my inquiry, as I firmly believe that all truth is verifiable!

The beliefs that I am arriving at using these methods are surprising and disturbing. I shall not enumerate all of them at the beginning as the discourse would be to lengthy.

But on the question posed, I concluded that God did not create imperfect flesh that would deteriate with disease. Instead I conclude that God created all things perfect. And God is Spirit, and I conclude that God's creations were Spirits with maps of perfection, all designed to perfectly interact together, as I believe that all life is connected through God.

And by reviewing some ancient manuscripts I have concluded that Adam, God's first man, was given tools to do marvellous things. I believe that Adam had tools to convert Spirit energy to matter, according to God's program, and also was given freedom of choice to follow or disobey God's Will. This was necessary to ensure that man would choose God with free will. And I believe that in the Garden of Eden, when Satan, God's Angel of Darkness, disclosed to Eve the powers of God in man, that Adam, not Eve sinned. I conclude that Adam created flesh bodies for himself and his wife, and modified God's perfect plan in order to selfishly create bondage empowering himself and the imperfectness of Adam's created flesh caused an imbalance in nature.

I believe that all life created by God is integrated and to keep the life systems in perfect purity, any imbalace is self correcting. And these self correcting mechanisms are what we call disease. The are designed to cleanse creation by absorbing and eliminating all imperfections.

I will try to answer questions. But keep in mind that my ideas are not founded nor based on man's literature. As I go only to God for insight and wisdom. And primarily use Scripture to validate my understandings and hypotheses. Although I do read a wide variety of works, and am a retired information technology scientist/mathematician by trade.  
-newell
  

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-24-2002 10:59 PM).]

serenity blaze
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3 posted 2002-02-24 11:20 PM


Okay...sigh, here I am.

I think the amazing quality of life is that we are not born perfect--we are born of FLESH--which dies daily in the physical, and regenerates more optimistically, in the metaphor as well as the flesh.

Prof, perhaps it is so, that some can never meet eye to eye, but you have to try...what else is there to do?

And newell, I do agree with you in an abstract sense, that we are born "unimpressed"--a very different concept than perfection. I do not think we are born perfect, would that we were already perfect, there would be no need for physicality lessons. (according to my admittedly limited view)

But I am very glad to find you here tho. I think of you as a good poet, and sometimes neglect a reply because the content spurs me on to a metaphysical discussion---and this is one of the places for such.

Oh, came back to ask about this:

" And by reviewing some ancient manuscripts"

I would very much appreciate it if you'd share here. I am fascinated with such literature, and if you have found something, I would surely love to check into it!  

[This message has been edited by serenity (02-24-2002 11:29 PM).]

Silver Streak
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4 posted 2002-02-25 12:14 PM


Karen, I'm so very glad that you are back. You seem to be very hungry for truth in these matters, and while all I can do is feed you a few ideas to help you along your journey, as truth is a never ending search, I am thrilled by your zeal in looking for answers.

May I refer you to one site, http://www.lightofchrist.net/ where you may find links to some interesting works of God's marvels including documents describing Abraham's knowledge of Adam's tools.
((Karen))
-newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Poet deVine
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5 posted 2002-02-25 12:27 PM


Can we discuss one issue at a time? I think if we get distracted, no purpose will be served by the discussion.

quote:

I believe that all life created by God is integrated and to keep the life systems in perfect purity, any imbalace is self correcting. And these self correcting mechanisms are what we call disease. The are designed to cleanse creation by absorbing and eliminating all imperfections.



Now, does this mean that if someone is born with a disease that may kill them, it's God's plan to keep mankind pure(perfect)?



Ron
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6 posted 2002-02-25 12:38 PM


Tell a two-year-old not to put their hand on the hot stove and then turn your back for about thirty seconds (the closest we can really come to giving a kid "free will"). Did you just give that child a second degree burn?
Silver Streak
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7 posted 2002-02-25 10:11 AM


"Now, does this mean that if someone is born with a disease that may kill them, it's God's plan to keep mankind pure(perfect)?"

A very good question, Sharon!

First, I believe that only spirits really exist. And disease does not kill the spirit; disease only makes spirits cry and then improve!

To add, let me say that I believe that all life is only one body, the body of God. And God's Body is All Spirits, And in order to sustain Life, God's Power must continue to flow throughout. To remain alive, all Spirit Parts must be connected by Love in a magnetic process I think of as Spiritual Physics.  

And each human being is only a spirit cell in the big body of God, as are animals, plants and all other living beings. I believe that God's body, therefore is a fusion of many spirits, each with a planned special function in God's overall plan of Creation.

At the Garden of Eden, I believe that God allowed Adam, the Spirit of Man, to begin a Creation process of strengthing spirits, and ensuring their connection, starting with Eve, The Spirit of Woman. And so God allowed Adam to create flesh bodies to capture spirits. And Adam, believing thoughts he learned from Satan, God's Angel of Purification, that he, Adam was as God.

Adam freely chose to attempt to use God's Creation tools to satisfy his own lust by trying to capture spirits into flesh bodies that he made. God knew he would do this. It was part of Creation's purification plan.

This resulted in Adam's spiritual communication breaking away from God, temporarily, and initiated a short process (in God time) of refining The Spirit of Man into the purity needed for God's Perfection.

God did not plan disease, per se. Disease, as I understand it, is simply an ugliness in physical bodies that irritates spirits, but continues only for a short time during the purification process of man. And all of the pain we dwell on results from being captured in flesh containers, given to us by Adam, God's first man. This pain teaches us to hate the lust of man and search to God for our own purification through Love.

And as new broken, imperfect spirit parts are generated during the birth process, man lives on with God's life and spirit, still in every cell, searching diligently to find new ways to ease pain, heal disease, and stop its spread, as men of cloth seek God in prayer for healing, all natural and necessary parts to God's marvellous plan of Creation.

Remember, there is no magic to Creation. Everything comes about in a natural, explainable, orderly process, as God fulfills His Plan, purifying us all as we are lead to fulfill God's desire for One Kingdom of connected (Loving) illuminated (Lighted) purified Cells in One Body, The Body of Christ, God's Spririt of Love.

So, as in the sense that you do not make dirt when you wash your food, God did not create disease when he creates purity in His Body, although dirt is needed to grow food and disease is necessary to show where purity and healing are needed.

Again, only spirits really exist for eternity. Our physical bodies are merely throw-away shells, that die and decay back to dust.

Make any sense, whatsoever?

These are my beliefs, opinions if you like. I hope they motivate you to continue thinking and searching beyond everything we have ever been taught in a marvellous quest for Truth.

May God bless you abundantly,

Silver Streak      



Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 11:20 AM).]

Silver Streak
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8 posted 2002-02-25 10:34 AM


Ron, I don't quite understand your statement unless you are perhaps commenting that some people might advocate giving a child total free will. I would agree that this would not be a good thing to do, as God teaches us to take our responsibilities of caring and nurturing children very seriously. And God has given women, God's Crown Jewels, very special and magnifcent nurturing abilities.

My words, here, are only meant to be descriptive of culminating hypotheses developing in an ongoing search for eternal truths. And I believe that all hard conclusions we make at this time, serve only to close our windows to understanding prematurely, which I would consider counterproductive in the eternal search for truth.

I believe that God reveals His Magnificent Plan in very small bites to a wide selection of souls in many ways, through many filters, as we are slowly and carefully taught God's Magnificence in order to prepare us to sing Glorious Praise in chorus, one sweet day throughout the heavens, where we all live in a beautiful spectrum of frequencies. Spirits, not flesh!

God bless you, abundantly,

Silver Streak

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher


[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 11:24 AM).]

Ron
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9 posted 2002-02-25 11:27 AM


No, that's definitely not what I meant. When the child put his hand on the stove, the adult wasn't responsible for the consequences. The child chose the burns, albeit unknowingly. This is a weak analogy, because children cannot be given "free will" in the same sense that God gave that gift to man. The point, nonetheless, is that disease comes not from God, but from Adam's choices. " … thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Suggesting that Adam and Eve existed first as Spirits rather than flesh is an interesting theory, one with a bit of a new age flavor. I think there's quite a bit of Biblical evidence to suggest otherwise. Personally, I've never quite understood humanity's fascination with the immaterial, as it seems to me the material is quite miraculous enough.

Professor Gloom
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Posts 3082
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10 posted 2002-02-25 11:45 AM


I kind of like Ron’s injection,
Gives the idea of free will a twist,
Is God the Father and we the children
That in our innocent bliss are able to wander into danger,
Know that we must feel the pain of the fire before we understand
The Danger?

“Point 3
The Plan of God for man, i.e. original sin.
Did he place our evils for us to find by not following the proper paths.” Gloom

“I believe that Adam had tools to convert Spirit energy to matter, according to God's program, and also was given freedom of choice to follow or disobey God's Will.” Silver Streak

No matter how you define it, Man did the original sin, is that a fair evaluation?

“I conclude that Adam created flesh bodies for himself and his wife, and modified God's perfect plan in order to selfishly create bondage empowering himself and the imperfectness of Adam's created flesh caused an imbalance in nature.” Silver Streak

Now this is a little tough for me to take, the circular logic in this is too much.
Adam the creator, just didn’t get it right although he was made in the image of the perfect God.
And God did know this was going to happen, although he knows all.
Reminds me of the concept of time warp from Science Fiction.

This seems to one of those type questions, I’ll ask him next time I see him,
Because it’s beyond my comprehension


Gloom

Silver Streak
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11 posted 2002-02-25 12:24 PM


Ron,

"No, that's definitely not what I meant. When the child put his hand on the stove, the adult wasn't responsible for the consequences. The child chose the burns, albeit unknowingly. This is a weak analogy, because children cannot be given "free will" in the same sense that God gave that gift to man. The point, nonetheless, is that disease comes not from God, but from Adam's choices. " … thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." "

I agree. Although I also believe that God knew Adam would make the choice he did. More like carefully allowing a child touch a hot Christmas tree bulb to discover the reality of heat.

===

"Suggesting that Adam and Eve existed first as Spirits rather than flesh is an interesting theory, one with a bit of a new age flavor. I think there's quite a bit of Biblical evidence to suggest otherwise. Personally, I've never quite understood humanity's fascination with the immaterial, as it seems to me the material is quite miraculous enough."

Indeed the material has always fascinated humanity to the point where virtually our total focus has been diverted away from the true nature of God. And this, I believe is the beautiful lure of evil. We are quick to worship the material, and abandon looking at Our True God, The Spiritual. And so we concentrate on, seek pleasure in and suffer from things of little importance. Things that are temporary and will quickly evaporate into smoke.

Here are a few Scripture references:

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Matthew 4:1 " Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. "

Matthew 10:20 " for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."

Matthew 27:50 " And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit."

Luke 23:46 "Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last."

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"   Note: That all flesh life requires water to sustain itself..

John 3:34 "For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

John 4:23 " Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. "

John 6:63 " The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

John 16:15 " All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

John 20:22 "And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. "

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Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

serenity blaze
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12 posted 2002-02-25 02:12 PM


Okay. I'm lost and I admit it. I am not quite sure what it is you are trying to say Newell. And as always, when I get confused, I tend to rely on my own experience.

My father died of lung cancer last year.
I do not believe that a God, however well-intentioned, killed him. I strongly suspect that it had something to do with my father's addiction to cigarettes. (sometimes as much as three packs a day, for over forty years) I think that sort of reinforces Ron's hot stove analogy. But I am still open to new ideas. I would just like them a little clearer.

Interloper
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13 posted 2002-02-25 02:19 PM


Newell,

I don't exactly know what you are trying to convey by your last post except that God is spirit. That is presumed by the Trinity or Triune of God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit (Ghost).

With one exception, all your references use the Greek word "Pneuma" or Holy Spirit.  Your quotation for John 16:15, however, does not contain that reference.  Instead, it refers to He (God) whom you may take as a spirit, in translation, as you wish.

God can be anything and to limit Him to a spirit is improper.  In fact, God is everything.

Your reference to water is a good one except in this context it refers to what we now call baptism.  Even the ancient Jews used water in a form of confirmation process.

I believe you are saying the same thing, but you confused me with your scriptural references.

I believe you are drawing a distinction between the "soul" of man, the Holy Spirit, and the flesh yet I believe you are muddying up the water somewhat.

The soul of man comes in two types ... "saved' and "unsaved."

The Holy Spirit is only received into a "saved" soul.

The flesh is our earthly body and it is indeed susceptible to disease.  Since God created all things, disease is His responsibilty and is part of His plan.

I look forward to your response.

[This message has been edited by Interloper (02-25-2002 05:59 PM).]

Silver Streak
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Posts 3625
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14 posted 2002-02-25 02:47 PM


Gloom,

Thank you for your words of wisdom. Forgive me for taking so long to reply. My wife, an angel from God, one of those jewels, God loans us sent me on an errand. And when she says, boy, fly, I say yes dear, how high?

"I kind of like Ron’s injection,
Gives the idea of free will a twist,
Is God the Father and we the children
That in our innocent bliss are able to wander into danger,
Know that we must feel the pain of the fire before we understand
The Danger?'

I think that God lets us come to him in any way that we choose. Father, Mother, Friend, Lover, Friend, any way to complete our own incomplete impression of our selves. Any way that will bring us into His Complete Love. Although I fully recognize the Christianity Template portrays God as a Father, as Christ prays, "Our Father which art in heaven.

But God in all of Omniscience is all beings.  And there is no one Worship Template that completes our understanding of God. There is no language capable of describing God. And anyone who believes that the complete whole truth of God is written in one or a set of Holy Scriptures is as blind as the men that Christ returned sight to.  

And, as far as pain, I believe pain is only an investment in a reward of joy that someday we will receive.  And the purpose of flesh may be to allow us to be to feel this pain able through our sensory abilities.  Silver

“Point 3
The Plan of God for man, i.e. original sin.
Did he place our evils for us to find by not following the proper paths.” Gloom

I believe that man is but one small particle in God's overall plan. I believe that heaven is aglow in an amazing multitude of fiery spirits blazing about as gods, angels and Holy Spirits singing praises to God.  I believe that man has created for himself a huge illusionary view that we are somehow magnificent, and God's most important creation in a view that will that some day burn in smoke. Bull offensive word deleted by Moderator! But God does love us very much and blesses us abundantly, as God loves all Creation in a beautifully integrated glorious way.  Silver.

“I believe that Adam had tools to convert Spirit energy to matter, according to God's program, and also was given freedom of choice to follow or disobey God's Will.” Silver Streak

No matter how you define it, Man did the original sin, is that a fair evaluation?

A good way to back reference man's exercising his free choice, selfishness in lust. Silver.

“I conclude that Adam created flesh bodies for himself and his wife, and modified God's perfect plan in order to selfishly create bondage empowering himself and the imperfection of Adam's created flesh caused an imbalance in nature.” Silver Streak

Now this is a little tough for me to take, the circular logic in this is too much.
Adam the creator, just didn’t get it right although he was made in the image of the perfect God.
And God did know this was going to happen, although he knows all.
Reminds me of the concept of time warp from Science Fiction.

This seems to one of those type questions, I’ll ask him next time I see him,
Because it’s beyond my comprehension

Gloom

Circular logic? Subtract one from the first day of time. What day is it? Add one to the last day of time. What day would that be? Is all time circular? Was Adam created complete, or did God simply give birth to an extension of God's Spirit with a program to further creation. And as God is in all life, are we all still creating as extensions of God? And as God fires this magnificent indescribable servomechanism, how can it fail to adapt to the course of its God, who knows the end result?

Look in the mirror. Is it possible that the flesh looking back at you is fired by God's Spirit, in you? Ask your self truly for the answer is likely within you. Silver

Thank you Gloom for your wonderful response.

Silver Streak.

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher


[This message has been edited by Poet deVine (02-25-2002 05:03 PM).]

Silver Streak
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15 posted 2002-02-25 03:08 PM


Karen,

"My father died of lung cancer last year.
I do not believe that a God, however well-intentioned, killed him. I strongly suspect that it had something to do with my father's addiction to cigarettes. (sometimes as much as three packs a day, for over forty years) I think that sort of reinforces Ron's hot stove analogy. But I am still open to new ideas. I would just like them a little clearer."

I'm sorry my words confuse you. And I am deeply sorry that you lost your father to lung cancer.

But I believe that his physical body quit because of toxins, partly from his cigarette smoking, destroying his immune system which was designed to repair all damaged cells.

Our physical body is programmed to replace impaired cells, but when the replacement mechanism is also impared, our body still tries to correct for failures. But then we may generate more impaired cells in a run away cell impairment loop, that we called cancer. I believe that all disease comes from our flesh being imperfect. And these imperfections are carried through generations and widen as new influences and failures occur.

This is simply a gone awry chemical process in a larger scheme of things, but I believe that the root of all such happenings originated when Adam made choices in the Garden of Eden to selfishly change God's original program for life. And converted spiritually energy to flesh, imperfectly.

Simply, like a child, he went ahead on his own without letting God show him how to make perfect bodies. I believe that Adam disobeyed God when he learned of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and believed an illusion that he, Adam, could go it alone without God, and could satisfy his own lustful desires and control other spirits with containers of flesh. And so now we get sick!

I hope this is not too confusing.

Newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

serenity blaze
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16 posted 2002-02-25 03:22 PM


The only thing that is confusing me is finding your answer to the question posed...
I can't seem to find the forest for the trees.


Brad
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17 posted 2002-02-25 03:25 PM


Well, I'm out of my league here; I find the interpretation interesting as well, but as I read this Plato and Aristotle keep popping in my head.

Combine Plato's ideas of Form/degeneration and the Cave/shadows, Aristotle's tendency to see all things as returning to their original place, add a bit of atomism and then interpret Scripture and this seems pretty close to what you get.

Curious, Silver Streak, what form of Logic are you referring to?

Anyway, like I said, don't really know what to do here, but thought I'd offer a different way of looking at this.

Oh, by the way, I'm pretty much following Popper's interpretation of Aristotle and Plato. If you want to check quickly, you can look at the Aristotle chapter in Popper's "The Open Society and Its Enemies, v.2".

Good luck,
Brad    

Silver Streak
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18 posted 2002-02-25 03:40 PM


Interloper,

Thanks for joining in. I very much welcome your knowledge and wisdom, here. I am not learned in Greek, nor Hebrew, and so I need all of the help I can get. And I deeply respect you knowledge of Scripture and your wisdom, thereof.

"I don't exactly know what you are trying to convey by your last post except that God is spirit. That is presumed by the Trinity or Triune of God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit (Ghost).

With one exception, all your references use the Greek word "Pneuma" or Holy Spirit. Your quotation for John 16:15, however, does not contain that reference. Instead, it refers to He (God) whom you make take as a spirit, in translation, if you wish.

God can be anything and to limit Him to a spirit is improper. In fact, God is everything."

I was simply trying to show how important I believe it is to focus on spiritual existence first and foremost. As I believe that all matter is indeed of God's energy through conversion from Spiritual Energy. And I believe that in all cases the Spirit came first and all matter is simply spiritual residue created in a conversion of spiritual energy. Silver.

"Your reference to water is a good one except in this context it refers to what we now call baptism. Even the ancient Jews used water in a form of confirmation process.

I believe you are saying the same thing, but you confused me with your scriptural references."

I believe that even ancient Jews did not understand the full importance of water in creation. I believe that water is an electricity conductor. Spirits need water to process spirit information the essence of life.  And so water confirms life, which indeed lets spirits function and play. Silver

"I believe you are drawing a distinction between the "soul" of man, the Holy Spirit, and the flesh yet I believe you are muddying up the water somewhat.

The soul of man comes in two types ... "saved' and "unsaved." "

I believe that the soul of man exists in two conditions, pure which you call "saved" and impure which you call "unsaved".  And that in order for an unpure spirit to become pure, again, God's Spirit of Love must cleanse the impurities through a process we call Salvation. Repenting, releasing all bondage to magnetic pulls away from God resulting an a magnetic attraction of Love to God, connecting the soul of man into the eternal body of God thought Christ.  Silver  

"The Holy Spirit is only received into a "saved" soul."

Yes! Impurities keep our spiritual windows closed. They must be opened by cleansing by God's Spirit of Love, The Christ. Silver

The flesh is our earthly body and it is indeed susceptible to disease. Since God created all things, disease is His responsibilty and is part of His plan.

Responsibility is a term that implies a state of irresponsibility could exist.

I think that the term, responsibility, was invented by man to describe his imperfect distrust of other spirits whereby man thought he needed to establish controls and measurement of righteousness.  I do not believe such concepts as responsibility are of God.  God is Love, Light and Purity.

I do believe that disease is a wonderful part of God's plan. Have we simply been taught about it wrongly? When spirits are purified, and die young, are they possibly better off. Is it a curse to live a long time? I just ask these questions as I fully believe that most of what we have been taught through out the ages is wrong. A square earth. The earth in the center of the universe. Etcetera.

How many other myths must be destroy before we learn the truth of God?

Newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
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19 posted 2002-02-25 03:49 PM


Yes, Karen,

It is highly likely that your Father's earthly death was related to his addiction to cigarettes. He had to live (die) with the consequences of his actions as we all do.
-newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
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20 posted 2002-02-25 03:54 PM


Brad,

Thanks for dropping by. Can't say much about the thoughts of Plato and Aristotle. The Logic I am referring to is simple inference, as you might study in Philosophy 101 or 102.

Newell  

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Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration
21 posted 2002-02-25 04:22 PM


wow.

talk about the punisment far outweighing the crime - thousands of years of diseases because some dude ate an apple.

and i thought my parents were harsh.

Silver Streak
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Posts 3625
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22 posted 2002-02-25 04:30 PM


Christopher,

Dude, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Silver Streak

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Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Alicat
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since 1999-05-23
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Coastal Texas
23 posted 2002-02-25 04:59 PM


I'm a bit confused by the religious rhetoric stemming from a simple question..but I'm easily confused. Are you telling me that the bacteria which causes colds is a beneficient and necessary mechanism for purifying the physical and spiritual selves? In what way? When I catch a cold, usually from some helpful person sneezing all over me, the only possible benefit I could see is the appreciation of life without a cold. If I look at another event objectively using this rationalistic logic, my paternal great-grandparents were spiritually made whole rather quickly: they died of measles shortly after arriving in the U.S.; they were in their young 30's. So too would be the young college student who contracts bacterial menengitis while living in an on-campus dormitory. Good thing I was born with bronchitis...in this life, I've been perfecting my spirit since birth.  

Note that this post is not meant to be perceived as 'angry' or antagonistic, but confused. I realize anger and confusion are close cousins.

Alicat

“It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.”  Charles Darwin

[This message has been edited by Alicat (02-25-2002 05:00 PM).]

Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
24 posted 2002-02-25 05:16 PM


Well, uh, yeah you do. The first three rules of logic begin with Aristotle.

Beginning analytic philosophy has a tendency to deemphasize its historical roots, but it's still there.

Okay, I'm off to reread Genesis.

Brad

Christopher
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25 posted 2002-02-25 05:40 PM


actually, my point was a somewhat sarcastic way of pointing out the stretch of an earlier statement implying that all disease stems from a single action. far from 'equal and opposite,' eh? it just seems a long shot that someone would have that bad of a temper, or a lesson would be required to be so strenuous and time insensitive. seems to me that if we don't even retain genetic memories of a time when we once inhabited the fabled eden, then any stigma still attached to actions from that time would have ceased to be meaningful as soon as the connection between action and consequence was lost. basically: just doesn't make sense.
quote:
How many other myths must be destroy before we learn the truth of God?
What if God's the myth?

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
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26 posted 2002-02-25 05:49 PM


I'd like to add that please don't mistake my persistance as anger. I tend to ask the question until I understand the answer. Nobody's fault but mine.
Silver Streak
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since 2002-01-02
Posts 3625
FL, USA
27 posted 2002-02-25 06:50 PM


Alicat,

"I'm a bit confused by the religious rhetoric stemming from a simple question..but I'm easily confused. Are you telling me that the bacteria which causes colds is a beneficient and necessary mechanism for purifying the physical and spiritual selves? In what way? When I catch a cold, usually from some helpful person sneezing all over me, the only possible benefit I could see is the appreciation of life without a cold. If I look at another event objectively using this rationalistic logic, my paternal great-grandparents were spiritually made whole rather quickly: they died of measles shortly after arriving in the U.S.; they were in their young 30's. So too would be the young college student who contracts bacterial menengitis while living in an on-campus dormitory. Good thing I was born with bronchitis...in this life, I've been perfecting my spirit since birth. "

First I believe that we must realize that we are not the center of gravity, here. So trying to base all of our thinking on how it affects us and our own reference individual being, personally, in the context of our fleshly bodies, and five senses, may indeed invite mass confusion.  So I believe that we must use our imagination to extend our perception to our sixth and seventh senses, the sense of intuition (like women's intuition) and God-sense, the sense that we lock in to when we invite God's Holy Spirit into our spirits. And here, our individual selves disappear and God becomes the center of gravity. And God teaches as us we seek wisdom. The Gifts of Tongues, Interpretation, Knowledg, Wisdom and Healing are promised by Christ as the Comforter.

Now, the way I that I sense God, a Spirit, is as a tree of spirit life, permeating the heavens and earth, in a spectrum of frequencies, like TV and radio waves. And I believe that all time and space concentrate in one point in this God space, and all of life is but projecting mirrors of light, shining into and through mass containers, we call bodies.. Further, the perceptions that we sense and think of are but shadowed, images amplified and filtered through our senses. And disease is mere dirty spots on our window panes. But in the resolution we perceive intense pain and suffering.

And God did not dirty our mirrors. We did. And in our physical domain perception, our spirits suffer from a sensory nightmare of our own making. And as our spirits join in birth creating new collections of dirty mirrors quickly taught selfish deception and impurity, and on and on our self created pain and misery grow.          

Now to bring this down to earth. All life is integrated into one nourishing and self-policing body which self governs itself for the good of the whole life body. As in our human bodies, imperfect cells are eventually arrested and killed, in order to protect the life of the whole. And when impurities blocking normal cell functioning are detected by the whole nervous system, life preservation mechanisms seek to destroy them in order to protect the life of the whole organism.  I believe that when God created life that such a process was put into action to sustain all physical life in humans, animals and plants. And spirits with free will play damages, and the physical life machine is damaged, it corrects and rejuvenates into the pure body that was meant to be.  Silver.

Note that this post is not meant to be perceived as 'angry' or antagonistic, but confused. I realize anger and confusion are close cousins."

Yes, of course. I completely understand.  Silver.

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
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28 posted 2002-02-25 06:52 PM


Brad, you're right. I forgot about that. Gee! that's wonderful. Read Genesis and come on back. Silver.

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
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29 posted 2002-02-25 07:02 PM


Christopher,

"Actually, my point was a somewhat sarcastic way of pointing out the stretch of an earlier statement implying that all disease stems from a single action. far from 'equal and opposite,' eh? it just seems a long shot that someone would have that bad of a temper, or a lesson would be required to be so strenuous and time insensitive. seems to me that if we don't even retain genetic memories of a time when we once inhabited the fabled Eden, then any stigma still attached to actions from that time would have ceased to be meaningful as soon as the connection between action and consequence was lost. Basically: just doesn't make sense. "

First it has nothing to do with God's Temper. All life and truth are simply integrated reality. And all I try to do is search for Truth. I believe that all of the reality, I call God, is centered around Light, Love and Purity, all totally integrated into a marvelous perfect Creation. And I believe that my best hope for eternity is to serve this God with all of my Heart, Mind and Soul. I am convinced that my greatest pleasure and joy are rewards from investing all of my essence into these beliefs. Simply: Light, Love, and Purity are God's Creation. " Silver

What if God's the myth?

It doesn't really matter then does it? Silver.

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
30 posted 2002-02-25 07:04 PM


Okay, let's get down to brass tacks.

The introduction of small pox to the Americas.

Most likely, over ninety percent of the indigenous population were decimated by the desease.

The priests, conquistadores, and colonists, saw this as the will of God and decided to help.

They gave infested blankets to Indian tribes.

Thus, we have one of the first recorded cases of biological warfare.

The point is not whether this is God's Will or that God allowed this to happen, the point is to what extent docrines such as this help to rationalize the horrors that man, not God, can accomplish.

Brad


Silver Streak
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Posts 3625
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31 posted 2002-02-25 07:05 PM


Karen, I understand your frustration. I could never ever be angry with anyone who searches so intensely for the truth as you do. Please never stop searching. I just regret that I have a difficult time putting my ideas into the sharp focus you requrie. Please be patient with me. Newell.

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 08:26 PM).]

Silver Streak
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32 posted 2002-02-25 07:22 PM


Brad,

You raise a very interesting point.

It is my belief that more harm has been done by doctrine, churches and men of cloth than all of the warriors of history. When men try to rule others telling their flocks that they are the only ones to have the answers and everyone else should follow their doctrine. They are not servants of God; they are tyrants of bondage.

Christ did not control anyone. He only taught love.

What did Christ have to say about the religious teachers of His time?

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Among other things.

Today, I believe that formal religion is still the biggest enemy to God's Children and a huge hinderance of truth. Silver.

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 07:26 PM).]

Christopher
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33 posted 2002-02-25 07:38 PM


quote:
is centered around Light, Love and Purity, all totally integrated into a marvelous perfect Creation.


if (and i know we've heard this discussion before) creation is perfect, then how can you have disease? one step farther - if creation is perfect, then how can man have erred in the first place, being part of that perfect creation, and therefore perfect himeslf?

unless disease and fallibility are considered a part of perfection (and if that's the case, then how do we maintain the ideal that they are the antithesis of such?). then, there can be no such thing as a need for purification since by definition, disease and uncleanliness would then be a part of that perfection.
quote:
Christ did not control anyone. He only taught love.
Not in my bible - in mine, he also taught pain, fear, suffering, martyrdom... on and on. just because the words don't come from your mouth (which they did if you look at the very quote you followed the above statement with) it still doesn't mean people don't follow your actions. rebellion, discontent, disobedience - christ taught all these things... in the name of a higher power, of course... but most of the famous 'prophets' throughout history have done the same thing.

quote:
The point is not whether this is God's Will or that God allowed this to happen, the point is to what extent docrines such as this help to rationalize the horrors that man, not God, can accomplish
once again brad, you're good about driving to the heart of something... lol. and... i think you nailed it in one - doctrines of rationalization. a method by which to alleviate guilt, proclaim superiority, seize power, waz holy... whatever - the key is the rationialization, not the justification. if you proscribe that which sits athwart your own tendencies/beliefs/philoshophies, then they cannot be wrong.



Poet deVine
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34 posted 2002-02-25 07:45 PM


Please understand that I am neither a scholar nor a religious zealot so I have to ‘bring this to my level’ of understanding. I mean NO disrespect but want to fashion some kind of analogy that may make this easier to understand (and interject some humor that may lighten things up in here!). Thank you (by the way, the way I’m going to write this is exactly the way I speak - with side references – you’ll see them).

We are God.
Let’s imagine that God is a balloon filled with sand –

Christopher, stop snickering! Serenity – don’t look at me you’ll make me laugh!

Ok…here we are AS God (balloon babies if you will) and the shape is perfectly round. But, as Silver Streak said, the ‘original sin’ created a body (sand particle) that becomes imperfect and dies, each one of the balloon babies must shift and make room for the imperfections. When that happens a small ‘bump’ (baby balloon bump – stop laughing Chris ) occurs.

To retain the ‘perfection’ of the round balloon, God has given us disease – we’ll imagine this as a tiny pinprick hole in the balloon. Thus the offending sand (and balloon babies) leaves perfectly round balloon and thus evens it out and voila!

It’s round again – until the next time.

You may want to read this, I found it in my search for answers to the question I asked.

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0109/page4.html

And since we are speaking of what we believe, I believe God did not create disease as a punishment for Adam. Eden was perfect, but there were other places God created that were less than perfect. Banishment from Eden was the punishment and in being banished from Eden, Adam and Eve had to suffer the less perfect life. Eating food that contained bacteria, living with water that was contaminated by animal waste, etc. And this, I think was the beginning of disease.

And if God didn’t want us to have disease (or bacteria or TseTse flies or germs) he would have made sure there were none on the Ark with Noah!

Thank you for listening to a humble poet’s rant.

Silver Streak
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35 posted 2002-02-25 08:12 PM


Christopher,

"if (and i know we've heard this discussion before) creation is perfect, then how can you have disease? one step farther - if creation is perfect, then how can man have erred in the first place, being part of that perfect creation, and therefore perfect himeslf?

unless disease and fallibility are considered a part of perfection (and if that's the case, then how do we maintain the ideal that they are the antithesis of such?). then, there can be no such thing as a need for purification since by definition, disease and uncleanliness would then be a part of that perfection."

What is perfection? In whose eyes? According to what scale? Are we even able to define the parameters of perfection? Is perfection two dimensional or does it have depth? Is perfection even meaningful?  Or is it a simply a word that that we humans use when we give up on trying to define fault. And just say perfection so as to not have to think any more?

Frankly I don't know. But I think the question simply put is: is disease given to us by God?

And the answer put simply is that disease is a byproduct of a system Created by God.
So the next question is, Well, is it a gift? And of course we humans think that a gift should be something we want. But every Christmas I get gifts that I don't want and don't know what to do with.

Is it possible that God gave us this gift of disease that we simply don't understand and don't know what to do with?

Could its purpose simply be to teach us the use the minds and hearts given us in Love to comfort the sick and find ways to cure the disease and heal the sick. Is that the purpose of God's gift of disease? I dunno, Just asking. Silver.

quote:

Christ did not control anyone. He only taught love.

"Not in my bible - in mine, he also taught pain, fear, suffering, martyrdom... on and on. just because the words don't come from your mouth (which they did if you look at the very quote you followed the above statement with) it still doesn't mean people don't follow your actions. rebellion, discontent, disobedience - christ taught all these things... in the name of a higher power, of course... but most of the famous 'prophets' throughout history have done the same thing."

Did he encourage men to create bondage? Or simply reveal truths about reality. I read His Words as simply teaching love in the context of reality. Silver  

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 08:49 PM).]

Silver Streak
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36 posted 2002-02-25 08:22 PM


Poet deVine,

What a wonderful explanation of your research. I think that this exercise was well worth the effort if only to get a few people thinking and searching for a bit of truth. And I am delighted and amazed at how wonderfully each of the participants contributed. And I applaud each and every one of you. Please do not think that I am a religious zealot. I am only a little truth seeker like each of you, dedicating my life to Love as I understand it. And my definition of God is simply Love. In fact I often interchange the words.

Again thank you from the bottom of my heart. I love each and every one of you. Now I must go and write a poem. LOL...

Love,

Newell
Silver Streak

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

[This message has been edited by Silver Streak (02-25-2002 08:50 PM).]

serenity blaze
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37 posted 2002-02-25 08:29 PM


Shar? okay, I confess that at first I laughed, but after re-reading, I think the balloon filled with sand is an apt analogy.

I will get back to you on the rest, as it will take some time to read all of the links and to all? I find this fascinating, and I'm enjoying it much!

Christopher
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38 posted 2002-02-25 08:35 PM


oh. ok - maybe i misunderstood. thought this was philosophy, not belief. LOL

have fun

Christopher (sharon - i couldn't help it... i was a bad boy...)

jenni
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since 1999-09-11
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39 posted 2002-02-26 12:55 PM


newel--

all of the texts i've read lead to another conclusion, and if you follow the inescapable logic summarized here, i think you will come to agree.

each and every one of us, all of the varieties of what we know as life -- humans, dogs, cats, horses, trees, flowers, lichen, fungus, bacteria, everything that we think of as living things -- are merely the living cells of a giant tortoise.  

patience, please...hear me out.  follow the logic.  just as we are composed of a myriad of cells, each performing its own independent function yet combining to form a body that is much more than the sum of its parts, so, too, do our bodies, in turn, each and every one of us, in conjunction with all other living things, form the tissue, marrow, blood, flesh, and yes, the shell, of a single, giant tortoise.  

disease is but the process of the tortoise's natural cell decay, a by-product, if you will, of tortoise biology.  millions (if not even billions) of cells die each day... but that's simply life in the big tortoise.  it's nothing personal; the giant tortoise does not know or even care, much as we give absolutely no thought to the millions (if not even billions) of skin cells we kill each day even in rather mundane activities such as, say, typing on a keyboard.  the tortoise creates new cells each day, and sloughs off others.  that is simply the way it is, it is the Law of the Universe (the universe which is, btw, coextensive with the giant tortoise... there is nothing, absolutely nothing, not even a VOID, outside of the single giant tortoise).  (don't let the absence of other tortoises, or even the "absence of a void" thing throw you; i could explain, but it would take up too much time, it's rather complicated.)  

written texts -- or, rather, i should say, scriptures -- confirm this.  while i am no scholar of languages, allow me to cite these passages:

1.  "yea, be it not known among you, that each and every one of us, all of the varieties of what we knoweth as life -- yea, even to the least sparrow in the field -- are but the living constitutive matter [most giant tortoise scholars here agree this translates as "cells"] of a ~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~." [the texts do not use the words "giant tortoise," and use instead the " ~ " symbol to represent the letters forming the words "giant tortoise".]

2.  "sayeth not that we are not cells of a ~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~, for verily we are."

3.  "that whych wee knoeth as death and black foul disease is ought but ye bye-product of ye biologie of a harde-shelled creature, the same the formeth our Worlde."

obviously, the third quote there is from a much older source than the others.  there are more passages; i could go on, but i think that pretty well proves the matter.  

the simple answer to the question "Is Disease Given to Us by God?", then, is, of course:

no.

don't you agree?

jenni
(p.s.:  ok... obviously this was tongue in cheek here, please don't be offended... just trying to have a little fun with it, that's all.  but in your search for "truth", newell, maybe you could compare your logic with that presented here?  if you doubt the existence of the texts i quoted, i can email them to you.)

(p.s.s.:  please believe me... no offense intended!)

serenity blaze
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40 posted 2002-02-26 04:45 AM


Okay, lemme see if I've got this straight--we've got hot stoves, and sand-filled balloons, complete with little baby balloons, a giant tortoise, and all of this is moderated by a guy who once asked people to think of him as a pink bunny--not sure if this is Philosophy or the Detox ward!

Now if you'll excuse me, I believe Nurse Ratchett just announced "medication time" over the p.a.!

(serenity exits, muttering "they said to go to philosophy, you'll learn how to think clearly there...") HMMMM....

Thanks for the fun, good people!

Opeth
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The Ravines
41 posted 2002-02-26 08:57 AM


The whole original sin belief is ludicrous. Let's see, if that is the case, if someone from my family kills someone, then everyone in the family is guilty - for the entire generations to come.

Did God give diseases?

Is there a God? Well, suppose that there is a God...then He/She could give us humans diseases, or then maybe He/She wouldn't want to do that. One would have to ask this question directly to the Creater Herself.


Silver Streak
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42 posted 2002-02-26 09:06 AM


jenni,

Wow! This gets better and better. I've always wondered why when I was a kid I thought of myself as a giant tortoise. I collected the little ones crossing the road and stole vegetables from neighbor gardens to feed them. Then when I discovered that I had a sister twenty one years younger than me, a couple years ago, lo and behold, she felt the same way as a child, collecting the little guys and taking loving care of them and we have been sending each other turtles ever since. We now call ourselves two turtles. And she rides on my back. LOL...(I believe that tortises only live on land) but the idea I believe is the same, with the metaphor, tortoise, coming from the long life of tortoises.

I understand your "metaphor" completely and see no descrepancies at all with my beliefs. I might only say that as I try to clean my windows and mirrors to the same God, I do find much joy in the intense warmth that I receive from the presense of this awesome God. And I am assured that the Worship Template is irrelevant. That our calling is to Love God with all of our hearts, minds and souls, which is what I try to do. And secondly as Christ is in me, Whom I describe as God's Spirit of Love, I try to Love everyone else as I love myself. And so I feel like a huge Tortoise, (God in me) just Loving everyone, (especially ladies, that I believe are God's Chosen Jewels). And wheeee! It's wonderful! Life gets better and better and better. And I could write volumes and volumes about the goodness of it spiritually and physically.

I find the secret of it is just to give everything over to God with repentance, burn all guilt, blame and shame, totally releasing all cares, and trying to use true knowledge with understanding abandoning all beliefs in the bondage of man's rules, for all of my thinking. And with these thoughts, I simply act with the best judgement that I can muster. And I do feel that God has called me to spread this Word to others about This Wonderful Love and Joy That is given Free from Our Living God and The Son, The Spirit of Love, The Christ.

And I fully agree that all disease is just part of God's Way, which to be honest, I don't think any of us understand, fully. As you say, we are each just a cell in a big body (tortoise).

So yes, Jennie, I love your explanation. And it sure is a lot easier to understand than my attempt at Spiriutal Physics. And I believe that we are both right. And I also believe for any who disagree, that it is only what is in a heart that counts, not a chosen Worship Template, whether Christianity, Jew ,Muslim, Hindi, Wiccan, or other, or any of the thousands of branches, thereof. It matters not. You are free to Love God in any way you choose! And only God is your judge and all belief systems are transparent to God as God sees no wrongs, whatsoever, but in The Big Tortoise we are but a cell that will keep and eliminate all disease and impurities in God's Way, to ensure God's Perfect Health, both physically and Spiritually, forever. So let us all just begin to Love and Love and Love and enjoy all of the spiritual and physical blessings bestowed upon us and share them with all God's Children. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! Come with me! Let's Party!
Newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
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43 posted 2002-02-26 09:09 AM


Opeth, we are all free to believe as we choose and like everything else in life, we all will receive whatever consequences our destiny holds. Thanks for your remarks.
-Silver

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Silver Streak
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44 posted 2002-02-26 09:11 AM


Serenity,

does Nurse Ratchett have any extra pills. I think I need a sedative. Ahhhhh!
-newell

Sharing God's Love through perfectlovepoetry.com

Copyright: 2002 Newell Elsworth Usher

Interloper
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Deep in the heart
45 posted 2002-02-26 01:52 PM


Christopher,
You said "What if God's the myth?"

I ask, what if God is not a myth?

Are you willing to wager eternity on the answer?  I guess you have a 50/50 chance if you do not believe in God.

Brad,

You said,

"Okay, let's get down to brass tacks.

The introduction of small pox to the Americas.

Most likely, over ninety percent of the indigenous population were decimated by the desease.

The priests, conquistadores, and colonists, saw this as the will of God and decided to help.

They gave infested blankets to Indian tribes.

Thus, we have one of the first recorded cases of biological warfare.

The point is not whether this is God's Will or that God allowed this to happen, the point is to what extent docrines such as this help to rationalize the horrors that man, not God, can accomplish."

God did not introduce smallpox to the Americas, man did.

You say 90% were decimated.  Lemme see, that means 10% were not touched by the disease and 10% of the 90% died.  That breaks down to 9% dying of smallpox introduced by man.

[This message has been edited by Interloper (02-26-2002 02:04 PM).]

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea
46 posted 2002-02-26 03:20 PM


Hmmmm, was I not clear?

"God did not introduce smallpox to the Americas, man did."

--Yes, of course. In the beginning, it was an unintended consequence of exploration and invasion.  

"You say 90% were decimated.  Lemme see, that means 10% were not touched by the disease and 10% of the 90% died.  That breaks down to 9% dying of smallpox introduced by man."

--Hmmmm, perhaps I used the wrong word, but the point was that up to 90% of the indigenous population died (I don't think the statistics are that reliable here which is why I said most likely).  I don't understand your breakdown here. All of it was caused by man, some of it was intended, some of it was unintended.  

--I don't know how to breakdown that distinction because we're still relying on a small sample of written documents. People still makes guesses though.

--The point was not to blame God for anything here but the uses to which doctrine is used. For some of you, purity is a good thing, but when I hear it, I hear ethnic cleansing, blood and soil, the Cultural Revolution, the Inquisition, the Counter-Reformation, the Thirty years war, etc.

--god (the idea) has very little to do with many of these issues. Purity does.

--God (the being) is sometimes invoked but that neither proves nor disproves his/her existence.  

Brad

rosepetals25
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47 posted 2002-02-26 04:29 PM


Ok.. I am wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy lost in this whole topic, so I'm not going to post a long big post.  I'm just going to simply say I don't think disease is God's way of purifying our species or population.  

Tara

Interloper
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Deep in the heart
48 posted 2002-02-26 05:12 PM


Brad,

I think this has gotten way beyond Poet Devine's base question.

"Is disease given to us by God?"

The answer is yes, and no.  Yes, disease is His "fault" since He created everything.

Does he specifically "give" someone or a race of people a disease, NO.  Like everything else He created, if you play with it one can take something good and make it bad.  One can take elements that, by themselves, are relatively harmless.  One can combine those elements and create Mustard Gas, weapons grade Anthrax, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

[This message has been edited by Interloper (02-27-2002 04:23 PM).]

Brad
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Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
49 posted 2002-02-26 07:29 PM


But the implied question is why did God do this?

And the answer seems to be purification.

A kind of strengthening mechanism to return us to 'spirit' or at least make us see 'spirit'.

My point is that this reasoning gets people killed.

But fair enough, I did attempt to show that this reasoning is used in contexts and political situations where Christianity is not an issue.

That it is not limited to Christianity.

Sorry Sharon.

Brad

jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
50 posted 2002-02-26 07:30 PM


Okay, I'm being serious now...

I’m a little surprised no one thought to say that disease is simply a part of life.  Why does there have to be any REASON at all?  Reason, that is, in the sense that it must serve as part of some “higher plan.”  If there is a reason why humans or anything else contract disease, it is evolution.

Diseases result from genetic defects, environmental/dietary factors, and confrontations with other organisms (i.e., infections).  

Why do people have heart attacks?  Atherosclerosis most often, caused by dietary imbalances and lack of exercise.  

Why do people get cancer?  Genetic defects, or genetic conditions, actually, that can be neither good nor bad in and of themselves but become cancerous when triggered by other factors.  

Why do people get influenza, anthrax, or small pox (putting aside the use of man-made delivery systems such as an infected blanket or the US Mail)?  The disease there is a confrontation with another organism; you can’t see it or hear it, but the organism is struggling for life every bit as much as any other living thing is.  It can kill us or make us sick, but that’s just what they do.  If a lion attacks and kills a man, we say of course, what would you expect, lions do that.  It is no different with biological pathogens.  Such is life.  

And such is life, indeed.  Everything living must die.  Not for any greater spiritual cleansing, or as part of a Supreme Being’s Master Plan.  If nothing ever died, our planet would be uninhabitable.  There wouldn’t be enough actual physical space to hold everything, and not even close to enough food or water.

Disease, like aging and accidents, is merely one of the ways that things die.  And die they must.  Again, I am trying to stress here the actual, practical, real-physical-world reasons why that must be so.  

You can ask, but WHY does the lion do that, or the shark, or the e. coli bacteria, why?  It’s merely a conflict between incompatible forms of life.  Why are there incompatible forms of life?  Why are there bacteria and other infectious agents in the world?  For the same reason as there is any life: evolution.  The process of natural selection.  Microscopic organisms evolve like any other form of life, indeed, they do it much faster, and have stayed one step ahead of the more highly developed  life forms through sheer speed of reproduction.  

Why are there genetic “defects”?  Some times, it’s not really a defect.  I’ve read that people with two sickle cell genes can suffer gruesome deaths, but one gene is also quite effective in warding off malaria.  Similarly, the genes responsible for cystic fibrosis help the human body defend against typhoid fever.  Studies have shown that breast cancer is much more prevalent in developed societies, where women also typically have many, many times the number of menstrual cycles during a lifetime than women in less developed societies (it’s tempting to take up hunting and gathering in Africa, believe me); it is a gross oversimplification to say menstrual cycles, and all the hormones associated with it (and the absence of other, beneficial stuff going on in a woman’s body during a pregnancy), simply wear the body down, but that’s essentially where the research is headed (as I understand it).  The human body evolves over a loooong period of time, and our lifestyles have outstripped our ability to handle things in some cases.  

Why does the human body crave so many things to eat that are bad for us and give us heart attacks?  Evolution again, of course.  Our earliest ancestors (and I’m NOT talking about Adam and Eve here... more like Lucy) who craved and found fatty foods were more likely to survive famine than their thinner relatives, therefore they had more opportunities to reproduce, and over the course of millions and millions of years we have today, homo sapiens sapiens, a species that loves fatty foods.  None of this was a problem, really, in hunting and gathering societies where fatty stuff is hard to come by.  It is a problem today, in a world of McDonalds and Burger King, and – surprise  – heart attacks are now much, much more prevalent.  Evolution and biology – not spiritual cleansing.  

Now, maybe evolution itself is but a case for the wonder of God’s plan, how marvelous it is, how He thought of everything.  But in the end, THAT is but a question of faith – you either believe it or ya don’t –  and it is no better than my giant tortoise nonsense above.  Our understanding of how evolution works may be imperfect (my understanding certainly is, I am not a science-y kind of girl), but it has the merit, of course, of actually being based on logic, on things that can actually be identified in the actual, physical world.  It may be disturbing to think that disease or even life itself is random, it happens without reference to a Plan.  So be it.  That’s life for ya.  

Believe it or not, lol.

jenni

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navwin » Discussion » Philosophy 101 » Is Disease Given to Us by God?

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