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JBaker515
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0 posted 2002-01-23 05:07 PM


What aspect of discrimination in society most concerns you?
   I am really really interested in this one.....
let me hear your thoughts....!!

© Copyright 2002 Jeff Baker - All Rights Reserved
Brad
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1 posted 2002-01-30 08:02 PM


This is an interesting question but far more difficult to answer than you might think. If my 'aspect' you mean type -- sexism, ageism, racism etc. -- it depends entirely on the situation. This may sound glib but the discrimination that bothers me the most is the discrimination closest to me.

If you're talking about what people do when they discriminate, I suppose the aspect that bothers me the most is any attempt to rationally back it up -- empirically, medically, logically -- that makes my skin crawl. We all discriminate, we have to, but don't pretend you can prove that whites and blacks are less intelligent than Asians etc.

I think it's important to realize as well that we are all a little racist, sexist, ageist, nationalist etc. That's no excuse for making stupid decisions though.

Brad

Ron
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2 posted 2002-01-30 09:45 PM


I'd be interested in hearing your definition of discrimination, Brad?
Jamie
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3 posted 2002-01-30 11:17 PM


I'm with Ron on this one-- First define discrimination. For instance, if I was putting my daughter into a private school would I not want to make discrimintions to determine which one to choose. I may choose not to send her to a certain school because it is near a freeway, or maybe it's simply because the principle is a Duke graduate, and as a loyal Tarheel I steadfastly refuse to support a dookie by contributing to his/her employment--- ,, big differences there but discrimination in each case.

There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar.
byron

JBaker515
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4 posted 2002-01-30 11:39 PM


Well, that is a good question, For i dont think I have the answer.  But..I mean in the sense like what aspect of discrimination concerns you most, like racism againt jews, or know againt arabs...and so on...

More thoughts later..

Phaedrus
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5 posted 2002-01-31 06:08 PM



I think Brad has made a valid point, discrimination is human nature to a lesser or greater degree. I believe the point at which it becomes offensive is when the sole reason for selecting one person above another is by reference to a condition, which has no relevance to the original selection criteria.

Discrimination that I abhor?

That accolade would have to go to modern societies attempt to “fix” the situation, my choice is Counter Discrimination. The theory goes that you can redress any bias by meddling in the discriminatory process itself by actively choosing a candidate from a minority group regardless of qualification.

This process was recently touted in the UK where it was suggested that selection of female candidates for election to Parliament by a major party was strictly enforced in certain constituencies. In an attempt to ensure that the number of female MP’s was increased.

I’ve got nothing against female MP’s, it just seems to me that qualification and selection for such a position should go to the best candidate, male or female.


Thanks for the chance to reply.

JBaker515
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6 posted 2002-01-31 08:13 PM


Good point.  But yes I would have to agree with ron, i would like to see brad's defenition of discrimination as well?
Janet Marie
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7 posted 2002-01-31 11:48 PM


Of all the "practiced hate" in the world...of all the different forms of ugliness that true discrimination takes on ... I would hope that "Counter Discrimination" would be the least of our worries. And doesn't it (counter discrimination) only exists because of the refusal by far too many in power to set aside their own personal practice of selective segregation? Someone somewhere has to step in and try and break the cycle.
And honestly--for me, it's hard to focus on that more "tame" kind of discrimination while there are people dying daily due to hate crimes...be it acts of war, oppression of a whole nation of people, or an individual incident of a racial or homophobic act of violence on the corner down the street.

So as to answer Jeff's question, it all concerns and disturbs me. In my mind true, practiced discrimination is bred from fear, ignorance, and intolerance. It is taught and practiced hate and often, is the only reason these small, close, minded people need to justify doing harm to others. Any time hate is springboard for any thing Mankind does to once another and anytime these things are passed on to the innocent minds of children by adults with poor judgment is a concern for us all. I worry for my own children, and wonder what the future holds for them as these acts are sharply on the rise.

JBaker515
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8 posted 2002-02-01 12:22 PM


I think Racial Formation needs to be looked at...

I think the one aspect of discrimination in society that isn’t the most obvious, but most important; racial formation. Racial formation in society is the sociohistorical process in which racial categories are created, inhabited, transformed, and destroyed. Believe it or not, racial formation is an everyday experience, and a form of racism. It doesn’t mean we are racist in the sense of hatred toward another human being, but it clearly shows that, in some instances, if another human being is not your color or race you feel uncomfortable.  In today’s society, one of the first things we notice about people when we meet them (along with sex) is their race. We utilize race to provide clues about who are a person is.  That bothers me, but truth is, we all do it. This fact is made painfully obvious when we encounter someone whom we cannot conveniently racially categorize-someone who is, for example, racially "“mixed” or of an ethnic/racial group we are not familiar with.  Such and encounter becomes a source of discomfort and momentarily a crisis of racial meaning.

Our ability to interpret racial meanings depends on preconceived notions of a racialized social structure.  Comments such as “Funny, you don’t look black,” betray an underlying image of what black should be. We expect people to act out their apparent racial identities, indeed we become disoriented when they do not. The black banker harassed by police while walking in casual clothes though his well-off neighborhood, the unending faux pas committed by whites who assume that the non-white colleagues are less qualified persons hired to fulfill affirmative action guidelines, indeed the whole gamut of racial stereotypes- that “white men can’t jump,” that Asians can’t dance, etc.- all testify to the way a racialized social structure shapes racial experience and conditions meaning.

We, as a society, constantly analyze these stereotypes. They reveal the always present, already active link between our view of the social structure-its demography, its laws, its customs, its threats-and our conception of what race means.  
We expect differences in skin color, or other racial coded characteristics, to explain social differences. Sexuality, intelligence, aesthetic preferences, and so on are presumed to be fixed and discernable from the palpable mark of race. Such diverse questions such as our tastes in music, our confidence and trust in others, and our very ways of walking and talking become racially coded simply because we live a society where racial formation is so pervasive. Basically, we live in a society that is too comprehensive to even monitor consciously, and despite periodic calls-neoconservative and otherwise-for us to ignore race and adopt “color-blind” racial attitudes, skin color “differences” continue to rationalize distinct treatment of racially identified individuals and groups.
To conclude my ideas, the theory of racial formation suggests that society is suffused with racial projects, large and small, to which are all subjected. This racial “subjection” is quintessentially ideological. Racial formation, therefore, is a kind of synthesis, an outcome, of the interaction of racial projects on a society.  As a society, we need to be more accepting of all races, religions, sexual preferences, ages, etc. What concerns me most about society is, as a whole, we are too selfish, are unwilling to open up to new views, and we don’t want change our opinions that we have. The contemporary racial order remains transient. By knowing of how it evolved, we can perhaps, as a society, better discern where it is heading.

[This message has been edited by JBaker515 (02-01-2002 12:23 AM).]

jenni
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9 posted 2002-02-01 03:35 AM


looks like somebody had a paper to write for school....

i'm assuming, jeff, you turned in the version with quotation marks and citation of source materials (such as the article by omi and winant, among other sources)?  unless, of course, your professor is stephen ambrose, lol.

thanks for an interesting read here....

jenni

JBaker515
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10 posted 2002-02-01 08:20 AM


Jenni what do u mean?

I did not write that, if thats what you mean.
I threw in like 2 ideas...but i just wanted to post it because i thought it was intersting to think about..

Thats all...and no its not for school..but it definetly is an interesting read.

[This message has been edited by JBaker515 (02-01-2002 08:24 AM).]

Brad
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11 posted 2002-02-01 09:51 AM


Jeff,

I'm happy that it's not yours. Nevertheless, give credit, give credit now.

Credit is not a game.

Where did you get it?

Next time, you're in trouble.

Brad

jenni
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12 posted 2002-02-01 10:52 AM


"I did not write that, if thats what you mean."

well...how was anyone supposed to know?  you start a thread posing a question, telling us "I am really interested in this one"; contribute to the discussion and promise us "more thoughts later," then -- later -- give us a long post beginning with "I think Racial Formation needs to be looked at."  the post ends with the phrase "to conclude my ideas...."  you never mention anyone else.  

i don't see anything wrong with posting stuff written by someone else out here to start a discussion, i like that actually; brad and others do it all the time.  but next time give us a link, or tell us you're quoting, ok?  

anyway...sorry if i misunderstood what you were doing here.

jenni

JBaker515
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13 posted 2002-02-01 11:21 AM


It is an essay written by Michael Omi and Howard Winant...
i just didnt know how to quote it, i'm sorry.

Brad, what do you mean, I'm in trouble?

Brad
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14 posted 2002-02-01 12:57 PM


You're not in trouble. Next time, next time.

Just give credit when credit is necessary. Is that difficult?

JBaker515
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15 posted 2002-02-01 02:09 PM


Nope. Its not.
fractal007
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16 posted 2002-02-02 01:21 AM


I think that sexism bothers me the most.  I have always been a big fighter for egalitarianism in any situation I've been in.  Sexism, of course, bothers me mainly because of contemporary society claiming to be egalitarian while at the same time promoting a lustful image of women[think of pop music and the various interesting coriographies involved in that] on the screens of our televisions gyrating and making suggestive poses.  

"If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh"

-- Magus

Brad
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17 posted 2002-02-03 03:05 AM


My definition of descrimination:

"dis¡¤crim¡¤i¡¤na¡¤tion (d-skrm-nshn)
n.
The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment."

That's not very helpful, is it?

Okay, how about extra-logical decision making?

Choosing an MD over myself to perform an operation is not descriminatory. It makes a lot of sense. Choosing a blonde woman over a brunette for no other reason than 'feel' or 'intuition' is.  

I think we all descriminate at some level because we aren't rational animals. I don't think there's time to be rational all the time but decisions have to be made all the time. By this, however, I don't mean that we can't reflect on that and attempt to make better decisions than whereever initial prejudices, even unconscious ones, may lead us.

Uh, does that make it clearer?

Brad

Irish Rose
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18 posted 2002-02-03 05:08 AM


what bothers me most in society is discrimination against those who suffer from mental disorders and are treated as if it is their fault.

Kathleen--(Kay)
"When red-haired girls scamper like roses over the rain-green grass, and the sun drips honey."
Laurie Lee



Brad
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19 posted 2002-02-03 08:54 AM


I'm confused. I get confused a lot of course. Discrimination is rarely about fault, it's about power.



Phaedrus
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20 posted 2002-02-03 11:54 AM



Brad,

I think it’s about both, or maybe that’s just my perception.

If you take Kathleen’s example of mental disorder you have the perceived power of the discriminator gained upon judging a perceived fault in the make-up of the discriminated.

Janet Marie

Sorry I took so long to get back, I’ve been writing and re-writing my reply trying to get it into some form that would make sense, I’m not sure I’ve succeeded but here goes nothing.

To judge the “tameness” of counter discrimination you first have to look at how discrimination works and the forms that it takes. Discrimination can be neatly sliced, using ochams razor, into three basic types:

Individual prejudice
Group or Societal prejudice
State sanctioned prejudice

An example of individual prejudice would be the refusal by an employer to employ a person solely on the grounds of a condition that bore no relationship to the position i.e. the applicant was from an ethnic minority, female or physically handicapped.

Group or societal prejudice is the extension of individual prejudice into mainstream categorisation of stereotypical labelling. Examples would be assertions such as:

Females are inferior drivers; blacks are inferior to whites etc.

The final type, state sanctioned prejudice is the most insidious. In the other examples the state is usually the primary force trying to eradicate discrimination, passing laws to discourage individual prejudice and instigating education processes to curb societal prejudice. When the state actively sanctions prejudice the outcome can be far from “tame”. A typical example would be Germany in the 1930’s.

Counter Discrimination would fall into the third category, and although the objective of breaking the circle is attractive, the possible consequences may be too high a price to pay.

The argument of using prejudice to fight discrimination just seems to me to be a little too close to fighting fire with gasoline.

Thanks for the chance to read and reply



Janet Marie
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21 posted 2002-02-03 04:05 PM


Hi Phaedrus ... and welcome to Poetry Land

thanks for further clarifing...and I hope my words weren't taken wrong...I didnt mean for it to seem as I was dismissing your thoughts...I was only saying that the more violent aspects of this issue are what concern me. It just so happened that the day I saw this post, there were two disturbing incidents of such examples in our morning news...one violent act claiming the life of a 14 year old honor student and another of a 26 year old man and father of 3.  Both of which fell victim to someones stereo-type of racial and sexual preferences and that was all that was needed for hatred to rear its vile consequences.
The report went on to say that Hate Crimes are again on the rise and a marked increase since 9/11.

I understand what your saying about state regulated control. My simple mind would like to believe that power, money and greed wont always win out, (which is one of the reasons Offirmative Action failed here in the U.S.) and that people would look at ALL the equally qualified candidates and not judge them by race, sex or whatever their status might be. That was my point...if we treated one another this way, there would be no need to such programs.
A far too simple dream for a complex and imperfect world I know. I dont pretend to have the answers to an issue so vast, nor do I have the knowledge or comprehension to converse on this subject, but I do know we can start by teaching our children and setting an example for them.
I have a sticker that hangs on the side of my computer, it came from my daughter's school, a program they taught at the elementary level, shes now a senior, but I've held on to it all these years ...
it reads:

Humanity

Believing and teaching through example, that people of different cultures, races, sexes, religions, abilities, and practices are all equally valuble members of our society, and are worthy of respect and the opportunity to share and grow as an individual.


simple poet, simple dreams???
thanks for listening.
respectfully,
jm



Ron
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22 posted 2002-02-03 05:03 PM


You're trying to confuse me, right, Brad?

The definition you give of discrimination forces me to agree, of course, that we all do it. But if we accept that definition, your following statements make little sense. "Choosing an MD over myself to perform an operation is not discriminatory." Of course, it is, at least in accordance with your definition. You are making a distinction, a discernment, and a very logical one at that.

The problem with this thread is that no one is talking about the same thing. Discrimination covers a whole lot of territory, not all of it based solely on ignorance or prejudice, and obviously not all based on logical reasoning either. The tone of the original question suggests we want to discuss prejudicial discrimination, the kind most talked about in society.

But can we even define it?

Scenario: I'm running down the street with a two thugs in hot pursuit, and as I near the street corner, I see potential help in both directions. To my left is a man, to my right is a woman, neither particularly extraordinary in any way. Which way do I turn? And have I just discriminated based on gender?

Scenario: The Martians have landed and the whole town is panicked, looking for a place to hide. One of the street thugs above says he knows a place. A nerdy but well-to-do bank manager says he knows a place. No time to ask questions. Whom do I follow? Did I just discriminate based on economic status?

Scenario: Those same Martians have caught us and are forcing us to procreate. Failure to produce offspring is sure death. My only choices are a 20-year-old child and a 60-year-old matron. Whom do I choose? Did I just discriminate based on age?

My point, of course, is simple. At what point does logical reasoning and discernment become the kind of "discrimination in society that most concerns you?"



Phaedrus
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23 posted 2002-02-03 06:15 PM



Janet Marie

Thanks for the welcome but it’s only my name that’s new I’ve been here a while.


There really is no need to apologise, there are no wrong or right answers only different opinions, it doesn’t matter how much they differ, all that matters is that we recognise there’s a problem that needs addressing. The way we do that is by airing our views.

With respect to your eligibility to converse on this subject I beg to differ, the rest of us may sound like we know what we’re talking about but in reality we’re just throwing ideas at a wall and hoping a couple may make sense and stick. If more people start throwing it just increases our chances of finding the sticky ones.

Ron,

I think your examples fall short of discrimination at least as far as prejudice goes, doesn’t discrimination of this kind have to entail some sort of loss on the part of the descriminated?

The only possible loss I can find in the examples given would be on the part of the 60-year-old matron if you had chosen the 20-year-old (and even that’s tenuous )

Bec
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24 posted 2002-02-04 09:29 AM


I contend with a problem called scoliosis, curvature of the spine. I wouldn't say suffer, because I've fought it all the way! Anyway, some years ago, I wore a corrective brace for 23 hours a day until my specialist was satisfied that I had stopped growing, and that I was in no danger of the scoliosis worsening.

Even though I was exactly the same person as I was before I was diagnosed with scoliosis, people seemed to think I was helpless and couldn't do anything for myself. I was given a list of things I couldn't do any more, because I had very limited mobility, and I gave a copy to my school so they were aware of my situation, but it seemed no one took any notice. I hardly lifted a finger for myself at school for the 18 months I wore the brace, my books were carried, I never participated in physical education and I was asked every ten minutes if there was something someone could do for me. As soon as I was out of the brace, I was left to my own devices again.

I know this isn't exactly descrimination, but I think I could almost understand how some not-so-able bodied people can get frustrated when people do things for them that they were perfectly capable of doing themselves.

Bec

"Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is to go where they can find you."
-Winnie-the-Pooh

Brad
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25 posted 2002-02-04 09:28 PM


Ron,

Perhaps I'm exploiting that gap, the gap between descrimination as such and prejudicial descrimination, but I think everyone else is doing the same thing.

I don't know how to close it.

When I can find the time and energy, I'll try to work through this a little more seriously.

But then I'll blame it on you.

Brad

Opeth
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26 posted 2002-02-05 02:01 PM


Discrimination against the intellectually superior is the worst kind of discrimination, in my opinion.
Brad
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27 posted 2002-02-05 05:11 PM


Opeth,

Could you be more specific? Anti-intellectualism is certainly an American tradition: "We don't need intellectuals, we need cowboys" or something like that.

On the other hand, Jimmy Carter, by most accounts, was a smarter man than Ronald Reagan but who had the more successful presidency?

Curious,
Brad  

hush
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28 posted 2002-02-05 11:05 PM


I really hate the distinctions of how smart someone is. "Intellectually superior?" Please. That sounds so snotty.... perhaps people who place themselves in that classification are discriminated against because of their attitudes.

I think this thread would be much more focused if the orginial question has been posed about prejudice in particular, rather than simple discrimination. Discrimination is in no way a bad thing... I discriminate when I opt to eat salad over french fries... we are always discriminating.

Now, regarding the "racial formation" thing- I disagree. In everything I see, I notice that it isn't primarily skin color that lumps us together into different groups we make cover statements about. It is a similarity in interests and lifestyle. Depending on the stage a person is in during life, this can be any number of things: Music taste, career goals, mutual acquaintences, hobbies, leisure activities, sports, etc. A lot of teens hang out with people who have similar taste in music; a lot of black people like rap music, and hang out together. White people, and people of other ethnicities that like the same genre of music tend to also enjoy similar lifestyles, entertainment (jokes, movies), and speech patterns (which I think is one of the biggest prejudicial standards. People ahve a tendency to listen to a person's use of words and pronounciation and make any number of assumptions about that person.) I don't think anoyone would disagree with me when I say that many, even most, African Americans have certain inclinations in speech patterns, clothing style, and mannerisms. As black culture eventually started gaining acceptance in pop culture, people of different ethnicities began conforming to some of these stereotypes, creating an entireyl new one; not that black people act in a certain manner, but that people who act in a certain manner are acting like black people.

And that is where preconceived racial prejudice comes into account. One's notions of what black people are like automatically figures in to the equation: If you like black people, you'll like this person; if not, you probably won't.

Obviously, this is very over-simplified. Nothing is black-and-white like this, and most people will give a person a chance regardless their racial/social/cultural background... however, prejudices do ahve bearing on how open-minded or forgiving of human flaws we will be with a particular individual.

That's all for now. I haven't even gotten to what bugs me the most.

"Love is a piano
dropped from a four story window
and you were in the wrong place
at the wrong time." -Ani DiFranco

rich-pa
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29 posted 2002-02-05 11:40 PM


hey hush, one thing you said kinda bothered me:

most people will give a person a chance regardless their racial/social/cultural background..

i dunno, maybe it's cause i grew up in the south but i don't see this.  racism tends to flourish around here, i wish i was in ohio where that wasn't the case, not to say all are racists becaus emany aren't but a significant portion of the population is prejudiced to some degree, blacks, asians, whites, hispanics, catholics, protestants, muslims, and so on so on with all the things people fight about...i just don't think the statement "most poeple will" can stand, i see too many that do hold things like that as a hallmark of a persons worth, so a siginificant number may, but most? i dunno

"freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose..."  -janis joplin

Opeth
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30 posted 2002-02-06 10:11 AM


Hush wrote,

"I think this thread would be much more focused if the orginial question has been posed about prejudice in particular, rather than simple discrimination. Discrimination is in no way a bad thing... I discriminate when I opt to eat salad over french fries... we are always discriminating."


- There is no law banning prejudices, however discrimination (in which Hush used out of context for this topic matter) is against the law.

example

A local bank president thinks...

Prejucice = I think that black people are stupid and untrustworthy.

No law against that, however...

Discrimination = I did not hire that applicant because she is black.

Now that action is against the law.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (02-06-2002 12:43 PM).]

hush
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31 posted 2002-02-06 04:15 PM


Well, what I meant was a discrimination made on a prejudicial basis. Hopefully that's mroe clear.

Rich-pa, I may be wrong... but I have never met someone who flat-out refuses to talk to someone based on ethnicity... sometimes the chance they give someone isn't a fair one (Okay, I'll give this person a chance to prove he isn't like other black epople) but it's usually there.

"Love is a piano
dropped from a four story window
and you were in the wrong place
at the wrong time." -Ani DiFranco

Brad
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32 posted 2002-02-06 04:27 PM


*sigh*

It seems Ron's point is more pertinent than I thought.

Hush's distinction is not invalid, we say, "She has a discriminating taste" all the time and there's no law against that.

We're all looking at it from a slightly different viewpoint and it's just getting more garbled and confused. I still want to know, following your definition of discrimination, what you, Opeth, mean by discriminating against the intellectually superior.

Is there prejudice against those who follow intellectual pursuits? Sure.

Is there discrimination?

Maybe in high school, but that's a tricky one as well.

I don't know.

Opeth
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33 posted 2002-02-11 11:09 AM



"I still want to know, following your definition of discrimination, what you, Opeth, mean by discriminating against the intellectually superior."


- Brad, I am not ignoring your question. However, since my answer may be controversial and of the minority, I believe that of this time, I should keep my opinion to myself, lest I receive a called third strike.

Alicat
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34 posted 2002-02-11 12:17 PM


Well, I know this notion is a bit past its sell-date, but I still see it happening, though not as commonly: reverse discriminatory hiring practices. This was very big in the 80's and early 90's. I've been on the receiving end more often than I really care for, though it's so hard to prove unless the statement is blatant, direct, and to you personally.

For instance: I tried getting work with a temp agency back in Texas. Male positions were all manual labor in the sun, female positions were all indoors with light lifting. I was tired of working outside, so applied for inside work. Blew away the typing, data-entry, Access, WordPerfect, Word tests...and was hired, pending placement. Then they tell me I falsified my application and fired me, with no hope of rehire. I found out later the problem was with employment history. One job gave me a 'bad' flag, which turned out to be grounds for dismissal. I contested and complained, but to no avail...it wasn't something I could prove in court.

Moon Dust
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35 posted 2002-02-14 09:53 PM


the way people treat or rather have a fixed view for people with disabilty mentel or physical. They look at their disabilty and think of a list of things they can't do I look at them and think they are the bravest people in the world who do things like wheelchair racing and swimming without the use of their legs. They could be stone deaf or blind and still work. The fact that they are refused to something in which they themselves think that they can do if they put their minds to it. The fact that people feel a need to help them when they can clearly help themselves. People who talk to them as if they are stupid when theres nothing wrong with their minds.

Also I am totally against the discrimation based on the way people look. I not talking about racism or the colour of skin although they could have some part in it. I hate to think that someone could go though life deviding up people beween beauty and uglyiness just because they dislike thier faces or like their bodies. Now i'm confindent in the way I look but I anit no model and I anit what some people might precive to be a freak. But I can't understand why do some people look at someone good looking and see the sun shines out of their.... (put any word you seem fit mine anit worth mentioning.) Why do people do that when that good looking person has or seems to have no personality at all when there could be someone who anit so nice but a great personalty. Thats discrimination to me.

Write what you feel, feel what you wrtie.


Opeth
Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543
The Ravines
36 posted 2002-02-15 11:10 AM


Moon Dust...because,

"It's nice to be nice to the nice."

- Frank Burns .


JBaker515
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Member
since 2001-02-28
Posts 458
Dartmouth College
37 posted 2002-02-15 10:57 PM


lol@Opeth.
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navwin » Discussion » Philosophy 101 » What aspect of discrimination in society most concerns you?

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