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Passions in Poetry

Just a quick note

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Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


0 posted 10-30-2001 08:37 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I love what's going on right now but, as a moderator, I have to ask for a little restraint.

No, no one has actually accused anyone no one has been personally attacked but it's getting close.

We restrain ourselves, not just because of the rules, but because the conversation continues more constuctively (dare I say, 'fruitfully'  ) by doing so.

In this respect, can we stop calling works people quote trash? It may be so, but it's too easily associated with the person who did the quoting.

Can we stop describing arguments as useless (ad hominem etc.)? Again, it may be so, but it's too easily associated with the person.

Just say you disagree or ask questions.

But Brad, you might ask, aren't you guilty of the same thing?

I am, I have been, I probably will be again. Nobody's perfect but that doesn't mean a civil conversation shouldn't proceed accordingly.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Thanks,
Brad


Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


1 posted 10-30-2001 11:59 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Amen.
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


2 posted 10-31-2001 12:15 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Brad, I thank you for this. I'm not very confident, and I don't know what certain terms mean, but, I am here to LEARN....if I feel belittled in some way, all I will learn is reinforcement of self devaluation...I ask of all that they be patient with me---ALWAYS....I will try to understand.  

(That's why I'm nuts yanno!  )
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


3 posted 10-31-2001 01:34 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."--Lewis Carroll

Brad, Brad, Brad... Interesting dilema

You want us to follow the rules but have no rules... lol...  

In the construction of logic, critical thinking, and dare I say .. even ... Philosophy... the rules were always to avoid the classical logical fallacies..

Accent
Ad hoc
Affirmation of the consequent
Amphiboly
Anecdotal evidence
Argumentum ad antiquitatem
Argumentum ad baculum / Appeal to force
Argumentum ad crumenam
Argumentum ad hominem
Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad lazarum
Argumentum ad logicam
Argumentum ad misericordiam
Argumentum ad nauseam
Argumentum ad novitatem
Argumentum ad numerum
Argumentum ad populum
Argumentum ad verecundiam
Audiatur et altera pars
Bifurcation
Circulus in demonstrando (begging the question)
Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition
Fallacies of composition
Converse accident / Hasty generalization
Converting a conditional
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Denial of the antecedent
The fallacy of accident / Sweeping generalization / Dicto simpliciter
Fallacy of division
Equivocation / Fallacy of four terms
The extended analogy
Ignoratio elenchi / Irrelevant conclusion
The Natural Law fallacy / Appeal to Nature
The "No True Scotsman..." fallacy
Non causa pro causa
Non sequitur
Petitio principii / Begging the question
Plurium interrogationum / Many questions
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Red herring
Reification / Hypostatization
Shifting the burden of proof
The slippery slope argument
Straw man
Tu quoque
Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle / "A is based on B" fallacies / "...is a type of..." fallacies

In the particular instance of argumentum ad hominem noted -- had Bloom been in the room the comments leveled at him could have (in my opinion) been considered personal attacks and struck from the record.

Don't the fallacies actually get in the way of the flow of conversation?  Isn't that what they are intended to do?

The truth, or untruth, of a statement is not dependent upon the person making it -- are there no foul balls in Philosophy(the pip forum)?  Is it a personal attack on the batter to call the foul?

While the interrogative form of begging the question, ie;  "When did you stop beating your wife?"  would probably fall directly into the no personal attacks policy  -- the argumentative form; 'Smoking pot is illegal because it is against the law' -- now falls under no guidelines at all...logically.. lol

or is it that I could call it begging the question but not Circulus in demonstrando?

I'll need your answer before I can ever post again.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


4 posted 10-31-2001 01:46 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Oops that didn't sound right. -- I don't mean I'm never going to post again if I don't like your answer.. I mean.. I need your answer before I can formulate my next post.  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


5 posted 10-31-2001 02:56 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

LR said:

"You want us to follow the rules but have no rules"

Yeah, that's what I want you to do.  

I know I'm guilty of many of the logical fallacies mentioned above, and it doesn't bother me. In fact, there's one that I think isn't a fallacy at all, it's the way things work. I don't have time to check but I think it's argumentum ad populum.

Being right doesn't help if nobody listens to you.

The only thing I want, really, is that we talk and listen in a more or less civil way. Because if we aren't civil, we won't listen.

Don't forget that this is an entertainment forum -- I know, I know that may sound strange to people but I do this because it's fun.

Brad


serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


6 posted 10-31-2001 07:00 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

expletive....

all I have ever asked desired of this forum was to LEARN...

Give me the references and definitions---AGAIN---talk to me like I'm four years old. After all, for all you know? I MIGHT BE.

(serenity exits, ducking the cheap shots...)
Interloper
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 11-06-2000
Posts 8628
Deep in the heart


7 posted 10-31-2001 11:45 AM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Brad,

I would never personally attack anyone.  I have, as you well know, labeled (here we go again) certain works as a lie.  I have addressed certain statements by authors as trash.

NEVER have I used these words to describe an individual.  As much as I may disagree with people like Bloom, I have only love for him as a person and can only hope he will find the truth one day.

Now that I have defended myself needlessly, I will defer to your direction as moderator.

[This message has been edited by Interloper (edited 10-31-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


8 posted 11-01-2001 01:45 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, maybe I was just overreacting but religion can get people heated in a heartbeat.

I certainly don't mean to demean spirited debate but I would hate to see these interesting discussions go the way of the thread on suicide.

As much as I'd like to think that we can discuss anything in a calm and reasoned manner, that is unfortunately not always the case.

But maybe I'm reading more into things than I need to.

Brad
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


9 posted 11-01-2001 07:21 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

ooooh..... ok.... I get it now Brad...  

this is Golf!!!  rofl

suicide thread?  don't remember.....

serenity -- before worrying about fallacies it would be better to start with a primer in boolean logic -- just don't have the time at the moment -- I'm sorry..
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


10 posted 11-01-2001 09:48 AM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

god i love this place!!!!!!!

hehe
Interloper
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 11-06-2000
Posts 8628
Deep in the heart


11 posted 11-01-2001 09:54 AM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Boolean logic - Used only on Halloween?
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


12 posted 11-03-2001 01:11 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Reb? OH.... (I looked it up!)

NOW I GET IT!!!! AH HAH HAH HAH HA.....

came back to add, when I first got my pc, I used to hit the chat rooms asking a kzillion questions, and all I ever got back was "RTFM".....didn't have a clue as to what that meant either....sigh  

somebody finally had mercy and spelled it out!

[This message has been edited by serenity (edited 11-03-2001).]

 
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