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Passions in Poetry

What now...... retaliation??

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citizenx
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since 07-31-2001
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motorcade


0 posted 09-12-2001 02:03 PM       View Profile for citizenx   Email citizenx   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for citizenx

History has thought us of the futility of war, but looking at the images that cover every tv screen and every news paper I am torn between my views on justice and thoughts of revenge.  It is obvious that the American government is going to retaliate, but in the end it will not bring back those who died, or even compensate the bereaving. So what now? Does the US bomb the nation responsible chances are innocent lives will be lost in that offence. But we can't let this rest can we… So what now?
    


"The writer who refuses to explore the darker regions of the heart will never be able to write convincingly of the wonder, magic or joy of love" nick

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


1 posted 09-12-2001 05:15 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

My initial reaction is at:
http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/

forgive me for not having the time to post more here... this is also being discussed in announcements....

I have an article I'm writing right now on this subject about the tracing of yesterday's events all the way back to world war one and the net effect of violence...

revenge will not end this -- but it would make us feel good

there is also a petition at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/224622495?sign[partnerID]=1&sign[memberID]=891099044&sign[partner_userID]=891099044
citizenx
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since 07-31-2001
Posts 206
motorcade


2 posted 09-12-2001 06:02 PM       View Profile for citizenx   Email citizenx   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for citizenx

LR, "revenge will make us feel good" Living in Ireland for the past 21 yrs and watching the cycle of violence I have learned that revenge usually leads to retaliation which leads to retaliation and cycle goes round and round. I read on the paper that people in Palestine were celebrating this horrific event.  I guess there is no easy answer. what happened was crazy utterly insane act of murder. If it was one person we could personalise this but it seems to be a nation and their ideals. Lets hope the dealt toll does not rise further in the events following this tragedy.


"The writer who refuses to explore the darker regions of the heart will never be able to write convincingly of the wonder, magic or joy of love" nick

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


3 posted 09-12-2001 06:14 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

LR, I haven't read what you've written yet so I don't know if you've covered this but don't turn this into a violence/irrational, forgiveness/rational thing.  Please don't turn this into 'it may be wrong but I don't care' attitude.  

While it would be foolish to say that revenge isn't a factor, striking back is part of American policy historically; it IS the rational response given the situation.

We don't live in a vacuum.

Brad

PS With that said, alternate views, as always, are welcome in this forum (of course, I may be doing a lot of locking if anybody has the courage -- and the conviction -- of a different view).
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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4 posted 09-12-2001 07:22 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:
LR, I haven't read what you've written yet so I don't know if you've covered this but don't turn this into a violence/irrational, forgiveness/rational thing.  Please don't turn this into 'it may be wrong but I don't care' attitude.  


what?

My attitude is not that 'it may be wrong but I don't care'.  I'm not sure I know what that means.  You can read the essay at the above link or in Announcements and links.

Taleban has resisted all diplomatic channels up until now (assuming we're dealing with bin Laden -- and he'd be foolish at this point to NOT accept responsibility but that's another topic).

What I care about is that 'retaliation' would make us feel good but solve nothing -- and -- there seems to be no other alternative.  In the aftermath though we will merely be creating another future Hussein/bin Laden/ad infinitum.

This is a cycle we can't seem to break out of.  As one of my friends pointed out though -- the good thing about a martyr is that he's dead.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


5 posted 09-12-2001 08:12 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

it [striking in retaliation] may be [morally] wrong, but [I want revenge and] I don't care [what you say].

We've seen this response with regard to the death penalty debate.

Striking back doesn't just make us feel good, it is the necessary response given our past policy (MAD, overwhelming force, etc.). I understand your concern with freedom, but don't you think that American freedoms are retained, at least in part, by following our past policy?

citizenx,

True, revenge doesn't solve anything. Doing what you say you were going to do does.

Brad

Local Rebel
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6 posted 09-12-2001 08:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

my concern with freedom has nothing to do with retaliation -- the freedom issue is centered on the 'this kind of thing never happens again' hysteria...
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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7 posted 09-12-2001 09:23 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay, forgive my meandering thoughts, and I know my reactions are based only on my personal experience....BUT...after being repeatedly bullied in an abusive relationship--reasoning did not work...counseling (the objective third party) did NOT work---crying for mercy did not work--the only thing that worked--was learning how to throw a great left hook.

He understood THAT. And sorry for the personal analogy, but actually? Personal experience is all I have to go by.

Did it improve our relationship? Nope. But he left me the hell alone after that.
Poet deVine
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8 posted 09-12-2001 11:28 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Revenge will not make me feel good.
vlraynes
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since 07-25-2000
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Somewhere... out there...


9 posted 09-12-2001 11:33 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes


Peace, not violence, would make me feel good.
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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10 posted 09-13-2001 12:12 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Believe it or not? Peace IS my objective.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


11 posted 09-13-2001 02:22 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Personal experience is sometimes a pretty good yardstick for these things. Just compare the complexity and variety of different relationships (not just romantic)you've had with the relationships among nation-states and non-governmental organizations. Compare the multiple and contradictory feelings you have with one person with the reactions that countries seem to have toward each other.

Now, just imagine everyone is ten years old or less.

Oh yeah, also imagine they are all male.

I know, I know, not that original but it does seem to work.

Peace is easy, you capitulate or turn America into a police state.

But don't LR's comments revolve around safety vs. freedom?

Freedom carries with it an inherent risk that things like 911 will happen (but it also allows for very real material positives, not "merely" the loss of rights). My disagreement here wasn't so much a disagreement with LR's statement as a whole (sorry about the misunderstanding), but with characterizing retaliation as the result of the 'revenge' feeling.  It is part of US policy and in that sense I don't think the Irish experience, at least as far as I understand it, is applicable here.

Retaliation isn't inevitable because that's the way people feel, it is necessary to maintain those domestic freedoms people quickly dispense with in times of crisis (no stability, no freedom anyway). It does have results, it deters.  Random attacks anger, following policy allows people to predict actions and allows them to adjust because they 'know' the response.

The difficulty of this policy has not been with direct attacks on America, but the use of military power beyond established borders. There, the policy has become much more ambiguous.

That's what I was trying to get at.

On the other hand, the problem with focusing on safety doesn't really make you safer.  It just changes the person or organization that's going to hurt you.

Brad

PS Does anybody else get annoyed at the media's use of 'incomprehensible'? This whole thing is perfectly comprehensible, it's just not justifiable.

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 09-13-2001).]

serenity blaze
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12 posted 09-13-2001 02:59 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"Retaliation isn't inevitable because that's the way people feel, it is necessary to maintain those domestic freedoms people quickly dispense with in times of crisis (no stability, no freedom anyway). It does have results, it deters.  Random attacks anger, following policy allows people to predict actions and allows them to adjust because they 'know' the response."

Brad? If I am dreaming? DON'T PINCH ME.
I think that we agree.  

But keeping with my analogy, it took YEARS of swallowing anger to develop the mean left hook. And this could be used conversely to see the other side of the argument as well. And? I tried to rationalize that yes, my perpetrator was on an immature level, I tried to understand him, I tried to make him trust me. But he still had the instinct of violence. And I'm not saying that he no longer has violent instincts. But? He no longer considers that an alternative. And if I am wrong and he does? HE'S GONNA GET HIS ASS KICKED...   Or I will...and either way? It ruins everything...hmmm...maybe not a bad analogy after all....  



and by the way...I considered every fight a moral choice to not back down to bullying. PERIOD.


[This message has been edited by serenity (edited 09-13-2001).]

Carolina
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since 08-17-2001
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Myrtle Beach, SC


13 posted 09-13-2001 10:26 AM       View Profile for Carolina   Email Carolina   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Carolina

I honestly don't think we can have freedom and peace without a price to pay.  We're not living in a world where freedom is "free".  My heart is breaking in half watching families being torn apart, watching life being snatched away in the blink of an eye.  I think retaliation is going to be our only answer to the situations that we face world-wide.  I can use my husband for example.  He's military, and he's medical.  He's in the Navy, but because the Marines do not have medical, he is serving with the Marines for his last tour of duty.  He retires in 2 years.  He is trained to handle different situations, and has to be prepared at all times to handle each one as it comes up.  He has been in the peace keeping situations, most recently in Bosnia with "Operation Shining Hope", flying the women and children by helicopter to his ship that he was stationed on, many of those hurt so severely that he has yet to go into detail with me.  I've learned by the look in his eyes when he gets back from deployment, not to ask.  He has been in combat situations, with Desert Storm, prepared to help his group, the troops in need of blood, medicine, surgery.  My husband sacrifies his life every day for our freedom.  Those people in NY and Washington unknowingly sacrificed their lives for our freedom.  I feel in my heart that if we don't retaliate, and retaliate soon, and retaliate AFTER we've found out FOR SURE who is behind this, the situation will not disappear.  And, I fear that the world will only become more vulnerable to these types of attacks.  How else would anyone suggest we handle this?  There are no anti-terrorists fairies to take care of this for us.  While most of our military members who are frontline in combat receive a paycheck that puts them near or below the poverty line, other countries are backing up their terrorists with large amounts of money, and considering it an investment into their future.  I've lived overseas, and I've lived in fear of anit-American moments that exists in other parts of the world.  I've learned first hand how it feels to be REQUIRED to blend in with my environment, with other countries.  I've never felt the type of fear I've felt walking through an international airport overseas during the bombing of another country, fearing for the safety of my children, myself, and every other American that was trying to get out of the airport and onto planes without being recognized as an American.  I hope and pray that my children will never have to hide what nationality they are.  I hope and pray that they will be able to travel freely and see the world as I have, and my husband.  I hope and pray that my 5 year old will be able to return to the land where he was born, with his dual citizenship, to see what friendly faces there are in other parts of the world.  No one should have to live in fear.  No one should have to live like we're living now, in fear of our lives and of our safety.  If Americans lose their freedom, we all lose our freedom.  Retaliation seems to be the only answer for now.  And hopefully, peace will follow soon after.  Our future for the rest of the world lies on what we decide to do today.  Only prayers will be guiding our hearts, and only prayers unite us as one world at a moment like this.  Our freedom to pray, in any way, to anyone that we want to pray.  Freedom.  

Live today as if it's your last.  Love today as if it's your first.   Lisa

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
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14 posted 09-13-2001 10:40 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Brad I fully understand and appreciate the distinction you draw between retaliating out of a sense of revenge and as a matter of policy.  I think there are important differences between the two -- and really -- we share the same point.

When I said we must act out of intellect instead of rage I was referring to that distinction.  

I think the natural tendancy -- at least in the unevolved like me -- to want to slap out in revenge and anger and I think we're seeing quite a lot of that happening around the world both with the event itself -- Arabic cab drivers being beaten in NYC, Mosques being attacked in Texas, and dancing and candy in the streets of the West Bank.

Most people know my views against the death penalty have nothing to do with wether or not I think people can do things that are worthy of a death sentence -- but more about the whole issue of justice and behaving in a civilized manner.

These butchers have acted with utter disdain for human life including their own.  They felt just as justified (and it's important to remember the actual perpetrators are already dead) in taking human life as the majority of the planet does now in striking back.

These events were indeed not created in a vacuum.  The causality can be traced.  Our own CIA trained bin Laden during the Soviet/Afghanastan conflict and we helped create the entire Middle East conflict by playing with the borders after WWII in the creation of the state of Isreal....

Now.. it's time for us to act again.. but have we learned?  Can we do this without creating more dire consequenses down the road.. that's the challenge our leadership faces -- policy is policy -- how do we do this the best way?

I apologize if I've used this anecdote before but I think it applies again...

Operation Cat Drop

      In the early 1950s, the Dayak people in Borneo suffered from
      malaria. The World Health Organization had a solution: they
      sprayed large amounts of DDT to kill the mosquitoes which
      carried the malaria. The mosquitoes died, the malaria
      declined; so far, so good. But there were side-effects.
      Among the first was that the roofs of people's houses began
      to fall down on their heads. It seemed that the DDT was also
      killing a parasitic wasp which had previously controlled
      thatch-eating caterpillars. Worse, the DDT-poisoned insects
      were eaten by geckoes, which were eaten by cats. The cats
      started to die, the rats flourished, and the people were
      threatened by outbreaks of sylvatic plague and typhus. To
      cope with these problems, which it had itself created, the
      World Health Organization was obliged to parachute live cats
      into Borneo.

Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran

 
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