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Passions in Poetry

Ok... let's see who's brave.. lol

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serenity blaze
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25 posted 12-01-2001 11:11 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Brad? I thank you for your gentle understanding. And please try to understand that I don't believe it's a privelege of opinion...it's more of a privelege of women, to feel life literally kick inside of them...

This is a very difficult topic for me. Because I have felt both---I have felt life literally being sucked out of me---and felt the miracle of survival kicking in me. AND BOTH WERE MY CHOICE. (Now THAT is privelege.) Having my children saved my life. And I didn't mean to go here with this, but my pregnancies were the ONLY thing that ever got me off drugs and alcohol. I had such a disposition of self-loathing that it took caring about someone or something other than me to make me stop. (And of course, I slipped, but that's another thread.) When I carried my first BORN? The first time I felt that butterfly flutter in my womb, I felt like the eighth wonder in the world, and thought to myself, "I can't be ALL THAT BAD..." (SMILE WITH ME BRAD)

I don't mean to have a superior tone, but it's more like a war veteran talking about battle with someone who has never been there.
It's not superiority. It's a sadness, actually of knowing I will never be fully understood.

now...have I earned my silence?

Hugs to all...

[This message has been edited by serenity (edited 12-01-2001).]

Local Rebel
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26 posted 12-03-2001 07:37 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Welcome to the discussion Irish Rose...

believe me when I say that you are too kind to say that I have quoted scripture here -- what I have done is misquoted it the same way that pro-life readers do to attempt to put something there that suits my purpose -- which is again -- really what your own verse does as well -- that verse had nothing to do with the subject of abortion -- it is speaking of the antiquity of God and (his) omniscience, omnipotence, and the place of (man) in the universe.

The closest scripture I quoted that had anything remotely to do with abortion was the one pertaining to an assaulted woman being caused to miscarry -- which -- is relgated in Hebrew justice to be a civil matter (since women and children were the property of men) and not a criminal one.

Another passage that furthers this point is from Numbers Chapter 5, Verses 20 - 28

20 But if, while owing him obedience, you have gone astray and let yourself become defiled, if any man other than your husband has had intercourse with you'

21 (the priest shall here put the woman on oath with an adjuration, and shall continue), 'may the LORD make an example of you among your people in adjurations and in swearing of oaths by bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely birth;

22 and this water that brings out the truth shall enter your body, bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely birth.' The woman shall respond, 'Amen, Amen.'

23 The priest shall write these curses on a scroll and wash them off into the water of contention;

24 he shall make the woman drink the water that brings out the truth, and the water shall enter her body.

25 The priest shall take the grain-offering for jealousy from the woman's hand, present it as a special gift before the LORD, and offer it at the altar.

26 He shall take a handful from the grain-offering by way of token, and burn it at the altar; after this he shall make the woman drink the water.

27 if she has let herself become defiled and has been unfaithful to her husband, then when the priest makes her drink the water that brings out the truth and the water has entered her body, she will suffer a miscarriage or untimely birth, and her name will become an example in adjuration among her kin.

28 But if the woman has not let herself become defiled and is pure, then her innocence is established and she will bear her child.

Here it appears mandatory for a cuckolded husband to cause his cheating wife to miscarry by drinking poison.. or.. have an abortion if you will...
Local Rebel
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27 posted 12-03-2001 07:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Hello desert fox and thanks for your input here... you asked:

quote:
If an adult does not have the right to terminate his or her life just because the quality of it is bad, then why would an adult have the right to decide that for a fetus?



My answer is that an adult (woman or emancipated minor) does have the right to determine what happens to/in her own body, and that a fetus is not an adult or even a full term (able to live outside the womb) human being.

And no, I haven't mixed two issues -- what I've said is quality of life is ostensibly an issue according to Solomon.

timothysangel1973
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28 posted 12-04-2001 12:41 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Hi All!
I am a "newby" here and I was actually just out looking around when I came across this discussion. Which I have to say hit me like a ton of bricks. First of all let me say that Serinity, you and I are sisters in a way, as I feel all of us women that made the choice to abort.  I agree with you, that no one tells you what you will feel afterwards, and the pain that will follow you everyday from the day on.  It was not so long ago that I told my fiancee' about that day, and though I was afraid that he would think of me as an awful person, he did just the opposite.  He held me as I mourned for that precious life that I ended.  Sometimes late at night, I curse myself for doing what I done, but at the time I felt as though I had no other choice.  I will have to answer for that sin someday and when I hear people spouting hateful words at a young girl that is walking into the Abortion Clinic, I think to myself that nothing that those people say will ever bother her near as much as what will come later in the wee hours of the night and will continue to haunt her for a lifetime.  I would like to think that I have found some kind of peace over what I have done, but let me remind you that having peace with it does not make it anyless the painful.
I know that I am only speaking for those of us whom have done this and regretted it.  There are those that Abort like they are buying a new dress, and they wear it just as well.  I don't judge these kind of women but I do pray that mercy is with them one day.  For those of us that have spent countless hours crying and regretting, and feeling numb, and as though we are bad human beings.  Personally I don't think that I am a bad person, I was just a confused person that made a bad choice.  It is very easy for someone that has not walked in our shoes to be judgemental, but for all of the people that judge us, there are just as many whom understand.
As the Prophet Kahlil Gibran once said...."In order to know the secret of death, you must seek it in the heart of life.  For life and death are one, even as the river and sea are one."
I experienced death when I walked into the doors of that clinic....but I was also granted the wonderful experience of life when my children were laid in my arms.
In closing I must say that I hope that for every hurting heart that lies within any women that has to live with what she has done, may she somehow find peace.
  
Stephanos
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29 posted 12-05-2001 11:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) ... that a fetus at about 3 weeks has a four-chambered beating heart.  where do we draw the line human  / non-human again?  

And on a more philosophical note ... let's say someone had aborted you, would the fact that you had not yet lived your life in time somehow erase the fact that you were robbed your potential human life (being aborted)?  The fact that you are living breathing and writing at this time tells me that you would have been robbed something of great value had you been aborted... and even if your life had not turned out so fortunate, you would have still been robbed of the opportunity of making life something better had you been terminated in a fetal stage.  

Biblically?  As you mentioned you did the same thing as you percieve pro-life advocates as doing... isolating scriptures for your purposes.  But what about the whole council of scripture?  Is there something in the panoramic view of scripture which might give us a sneaking suspicion that God feels very strongly about abortion being  morally wrong?  I think so.  Too many scriptures portray life as sacred.  And too many of them present  love for others as yourself, as the measure by which to make decisions.  "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you".  Ask yourself if you would prefer to have been aborted before you abort another human life.  Because regardless of time,  I think it is the same life which is ultimately affected.

Stephen.
serenity blaze
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30 posted 12-06-2001 12:48 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Stephanos? E mail me and I will share with you the experience. But please understand that we already disagree as the King James version of the Bible as a point of reference.

If that is beyond your comprehension, there's no sense in talking...

I would say it all now, in fact, I just backspaced it out---but I feel my personal emotions cloud this issue...AS THEY SHOULD.

Peace to you and may I close with this?

"For all of your wisdom, get understanding..."

sigh...don't know the book, chapter and verse and not even sure if that's the direct King James version quote, but for now, I think it will do.

Love to you, and to all...and Brad? Silence is probably wiser and more difficult.
timothysangel1973
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31 posted 12-06-2001 01:28 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Very well spoken Serenity....
I find it amazing how others will quote scripture from the Bible about what we should and should not do.

I have and still do read that  same Bible that taught me that to kill was a sin....

But God also said "ask and ye shall be forgiven"

All sins are the same in His eye.
And that goes for judging others, because it is very easy to say what you would or wouldn't have done.  

However, it is an entirely different matter when you are in the situation.

Surely you learned in all your reading and studying of the Bible dear Stephanos that you should never judge others.

Whether or not you agree with it does not matter, when you allow yourself to judge, you yourself have become a sinner.

Like I said before, all of us whom have made that choice will have to answer for it someday.



Have childlike faith...and laugh accordingly.

[This message has been edited by timothysangel1973 (edited 12-06-2001).]

Brad
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32 posted 12-06-2001 03:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

This is getting a little confusing for me.

That's okay, I get confused all the time.

Reading through the passages here, including the original post, shows me that many valid points are simply not being discussed here.

Why is that?

I don't think Stephen's post was meant as an attack or a judgement on others, I do think his points seem, well, poorly designed to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with him.

In fact, it's a retreat from using the Bible as the 'Word of God' to attempting to discern what God meant from the overall feel.

That's a tremendous concession although I don't think it was intended.

Also, his philosophical point isn't really a point at all, simply metaphysical speculation -- nothing wrong with that except that you can pretty much say anything you want.  And if you can say anything you want, the question is simply whether it resonates with you on a personal level or not. No big deal there, no attack. It's like reading a poem for the first time-- does it work for you or not?

As far as the four chambered heart theory goes, well, again, he concedes much in his own words. We decide what is human, we decide the value of humanity, we decide what to do with our own lives.

For Christians and many spiritualists, the above is an extremely arrogant statement, but, from a different perspective, it entails great responsibility and response-ability.

For some of us, the idea that anybody has some esoteric power, some key, some secret knowledge that others don't (and can't unless they follow the same path), is a ruse to force agreement without thought.

It may be true but you force the argument into the private realm.  You are saying, I know more than you, follow me, do what I do, think what I think, or dire consequences will follow.

Like the war veteran, you claim unspeakable knowledge, but for some of us this means no knowledge at all (or rather no useful knowledge) and the very mystery created can be just as attractive as it is repulsive. Once divulged, however, it often loses its magic.

Serenity,

I'm not arguing that you should tell us your story, that's your choice, you earned the right to be silent a long time ago. In fact, I'm not sure you should tell your story (at least not here). I don't think it would have the persuasive force that you seem to think it would have. I'm sure people would sympathize/empathize but I don't think it would change anyone's mind.

However, as mentioned above, silence is just a much a tool as speech, it has power, but that power is not controllable (like metaphysical speculation, it can mean anything you or I like), but to break that silence does not mean that you have to say one thing only, there are always other things to say.

What are some of those other things?

This has been mentioned before by several people but I'll bring it up again:

Why is it that a free society, an open society such as America so completely creates the feeling of powerlessness in women (and men) that they are forced to take such drastic measures as suicide?

Why is the emphasis on validation/accusation and not on creating the maximum, and making people aware of the maximum, number of options available?

Why the emphasis on morality after the fact and not on creating a society where many of these questions simply don't arise (or arise rarely)?

To answer these questions in some concrete, plausible way is a far more difficult endeavour than remaining silent.  

Brad

serenity blaze
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33 posted 12-06-2001 04:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Actually Brad, the only thing I ever hoped to gain, was not the joyful victory of being right, nor sympathy...just enough to be understood. It's why I write. In fact, I pointed out earlier that I am both Pro-life and Pro-choice. I just felt the need to point out that I do not accept Biblical quote alone as a valid point of reference.

I am simply saying that walking a mile in someone else's shoes, can make a valid difference in the grasp of understanding an issue. It is not "theory" to me and my reasoning of silence is that I do understand that my emotions cloud my thinking on this.

My story is simple. I was a junkie who aborted a damaged pregnancy. There is no argument in that. It happened so for me this question is moot.

Don't misunderstand my tone, it's not angry silence, but this makes me sadder than you could imagine, and emotionally--FOR NOW--I have other issues to deal with. That's all.

As for now, again sadly, I have to go. I will ponder your questions and generally, don't mind stating my mind publicly as most of you know, but I felt uncomfortable as it might seem like a plea for sympathy. Which was not my intention. Hugs Brad, will come back later and ponder your questions when I have more time. I have company now. More later.
Stephanos
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34 posted 12-07-2001 01:01 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Serenity...

My response was not to you personally, but to the original post by Local Rebel (and in general to the replies following).

Here is the beginning of the original post... let's see if this sets the stage for using the bible as a reference in discussion...


Local Rebel wrote:

"Abortion


Theology

The book by which conservative Christian pro-lifers have espoused faith says that causing a miscarriage is not murder. The whole Pro-Life argument is predicated upon ' thou shalt not kill'
Kill what? Nothing? Not even a fly?
What does that commandment mean?"




Since Local Rebel began with scripture in his discussion of this issue, (in fact using it as the main leverage of his own argument),  I felt that it was in no way inappropriate or out of context to go there as well.

As to your own past situation with abortion, I meant no offence to you personally.  I am merely stating some of the reasons why I believe abortion is morally wrong from a Biblical stand point.  (BTW...I am not holding to any particular translation such as the KJV).  

Does this mean I am heartless and without sympathy for the plight of women who are in desperate situations or who have chosen abortions?  No.  I too have sinned.  And I agree that sin is sin.  I have a plank in my own eye that I had better work on removing before I try to remove your "specks".  But the fact of the matter is that we (from the start) were discussing the issue of abortion as being right or wrong as a general moral precept... using scripture as a reference point.  The trend in this post wasn't started by me.

I mean no offence to you.  And I don't want to appear cold or calculated in my treatment of this issue, which is painfully close to your heart and life's experience.  I don't want you to think that I am placing a frigid pedantry above compassion and concern... but the context of the thread dealt with dogma and position.  And that's where I went.  

I cannot pretend to have so much compassion for someone's baby (born or unborn) while showing no compassion to that person.  If that's the way this felt to you, I apologize.  


However the idea about judging others sometimes comes across to me as saying (though not verbalizing it) "Don't have any definite moral convictions or you are 'judging'".  There is a difference between speaking against people or individuals, and in speaking against sin.  Jesus himself was very kind to "sinners" and people who did all kinds of morally wrong things... so much that he earned the reproachful epithet of "friend of sinners and tax collectors" from the religious elite.   But he did teach that certain things were wrong, publically.  He didn't condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery in John 8, but still said "Go and sin no more".  He was different than the heartless religious in a way, and the same as them in another... namely that he shared their belief that adultery was sin.  

The way I have heard some teach "judge not", it seems that to be fair they would have to censure themselves for 'judging' those who judge.  For they, like those they speak of, also are judging out of a moral conviction... namely that it is wrong to "judge".  

The point I am making is that we MUST  judge in one sense...I have heard you do so.   it is wrong to do so in another sense.  There is a moral way to 'judge' as well as an immoral way to judge.  When the scripture says "Do not judge lest you be judged", it too has a context to be taken in the light of the whole Bible.  I cannot apologize for my moral convictions.  I can explain that I am not judging or taking liberty to scrutinize your situation which I know nothing about.

Just trying to clarify.

respectfully,

Stephen.
Local Rebel
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35 posted 12-07-2001 01:17 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Hello timothysangel and welcome to the conversation -- it's always good to have more points of view represented.

I'm sorry for the pain that you've suffered... it must have been very difficult for you.

People change over time -- as you know -- so there's no telling really how anyone's attitudes and opinons will shift through time -- or what people will feel...

Stephanos,

If you're asking me how would I like it if I'd been aborted -- all I can say is that sometimes I feel like George Bailey at the beginning of the movie and at other times I feel like George Bailey at the end of the movie.

Had I been aborted I doubt I'd feel anything at all.

Pertaining to an overall theme of the reverence for life portrayed in the Bible -- this is the Bible that says 'thou shalt not kill' and then says David is a man after God's own heart because when he goes to war he kills every man woman and child among the enemy.

And this is the God who decides he's created a wicked race and just floods the earth and kills them all except for a boatload of people and animals.

The same God who rains fire on the cities of 'evil'.

Of course, later, we see this God of power evolve into a God of love -- love and forgiveness -- albeit -- the only way he may forgive is if his only begotten son is willing to suffer mutilation and asphixiation on a cross... then.. he'll forgive...

This is the God of whom it is also said in the more enlightened times of love and forgiveness we should fear -- not fearing those who can harm the body -- but fear God who has power over our souls.

It seems to me -- the subject even taken as a whole is open to interpretation -- and in that light as a whole the somewhat disjunct canon of scripture seems to say more that human life is pretty inconsequential.

But I don't want to paint that bleak of a picture of my view of scriptures -- I think in reality what this collection of books illustrates is that humanity has struggled throughout history to know and understand God -- a struggle that we don't really have the equipment to handle -- and our interpretation of God is always going to be limited to the norms and paradigms of our culture.

And I also think that as a result God is anthropomorphized in scripture as well as daily life.

Like Einstein -- I believe there is a God, but I'm not convinced that he's particularly obsessed with human history -- at the same time -- neither do I think he plays dice.

There was a life that was very precious to me, and she had no faith in God, and had concluded for very different reasons that human life was precious -- even moreso because the universe is chaos.. that all we have to cling to is each other.

As I watched my father dying slowly, becoming less and less himself as his brain was consumed by cancer, it became very clear to me human life is defined by sentience..... and that one day there will be a debate about the rights of other animals or even artificial intelligence (if sentience can be achieved artificially).

Brad,

I agree, there are many talking points falling by the wayside here -- but that's especially normal for this topic.

I thought your observations on Stephanos posting were very interesting and you made excellent points.
timothysangel1973
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36 posted 12-07-2001 01:43 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Hi Local Rebel
Thanks alot for your kind words!
I guess what prompted me to reply the second time was the the question "how would I have felt if I were aborted"
I find that absolutely absurd, but the point that I am trying to make here....
(timothysangel stops and thinks for a moment)
Is simply this

It is evident that I was not aborted, because at the time my mother made a different chioce, however her circumstances were far different from mine might I add.

The whole "feel" issue is what struck me odd, I speak for myself when I say that the negative far out weighed the positive when I was at that point in my life, so therefore I don't think that I was "feeling" anything, atleast not anything good.

The days that followed and the days that still lie ahead of my time here on earth, do include alot of "feeling"...in fact, that is part of the punishment for the "sin" for going against the Bible and it's sriptures as stated above.

At that point in time, yes...I was Pro-Choice, but when I look into the eyes of my children or watch my son score a touchdown, or my daughter play with her doll I am Pro-Life.

I was born, raised and still live smack dab in the middle of "The Bible Belt".
I was raised to obey the scripture of the Bible, but if we are going to use this as our main reference tool for our arguments with Abortion then we must know that for nearly every subject known to human kind there is a scripture for it.

I don't quote the Bible because I beleive that I would do it great injustice if I mis-quoted it.  Everynow and then a verse comes to me and I use it.

I have enjoyed this topic very much, because I think that part of the healing is to talk about something, this has all been very interesting to me.

Rebel, I think that you ahve some really good points, though I ahve to say that I do not agree with all of them.  (but you knew that right?)

But it goes without saying that for all of the scripture that Stephan can find to concrete his cause, he will never be a woman and he will never have to make that choice.

Dont get me wrong Dear Stephan, I truly beleive that you have strongly made your point.  However let me remeind you that "feeling" goes much deeper than the womb, it scars the heart and it weighs on the mind.

But, when I read the Bible...the same one that tells me that what I done was wrong, I find promise that I am forgiven and that one day my heart will ache no more.

Bless You All !
until next time.....~timothys angel



One sad thing about this world is that the acts that take the most

Stephanos
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37 posted 12-07-2001 02:01 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

you said:

"In fact, (Stephen's point is) a retreat from using the Bible as the 'Word of God' to attempting to discern what God meant from the overall feel.
That's a tremendous concession although I don't think it was intended."


There is somewhat of a difference between concession and mitigation.  More than anything I was trying to relate the importance of taking scriptures into overall context ... even the whole Bible,  measuring, balancing, and interpreting  scriptures with other scriptures.  At first glance this might seem to be relinquishing the stance of the authority of scripture... but it actually through subtlety is pointing to the divine nature of 66 diverse books as a living whole.  This "word of God" doesn't just speak in the way of blurting ... but it whispers like wind along time and humanity in strange and wonderful ways.  In this way you are right about the "overall feel".  I was backing off of  (not abandoning) absolute doctrinal authority and appealing to the emotions of humanity, especially those stirred by a broad view of the written word.  He has "written the law on their hearts".  My moral and aesthetic appeal to righteousness and love, is not as much of concession as it is an example that God's influence is wider than we ever imagined and deeply ingrained in who we are as humans created in his image.

This too is the direction I went with the idea of the beating heart...  I guess the point is, that we are, as you say, permitted to decide what we think is human or not.  Yet the appeal to the intricacies of the pumping cardiac muscle in a 3-week old fetus, was my attempt to awaken feelings that it might be wiser to err in the other direction if erring is possible in the least... Maybe the whole process of gestation is humanity through time... and it is.   If we can decide it isn't humanity pre-birth ... then why can't we decide it isn't humanity 1 month post birth?  The point is . . . where is the line?  It is better to leave the lines where they were drawn by the Creator according to the Judeo-Christian view  "before the foundations of the world".

And Brad...  the philosophical point you spoke of is certainly no mere metaphysical speculation.  Even science can (and does) show that in most cases unaborted fetuses will be born as infants... and aborted ones in all cases (except in failure of the abortion process) will not.  That, Brad, is the difference between life and death.  And it happens... it is not just speculation.
Aren't you glad you were born? . . .

I guess that's the better way to say it than "how would you feel had you been aborted"... aren't you glad you were given the chance to live.  I stated the photo negative before, whereas this is the photo in living colors.  If not glad to be born, at least glad to have had the chance at living.

Although the scriptural world-view also validates the "negative", assuring that our lives do not end with physical death... so aborted humans may have the opportunity to think about how they feel about past events in the world to come... (now I'm getting speculative.. forgive me... lol)

Stephen.  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (edited 12-08-2001).]

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38 posted 12-07-2001 02:04 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Stephanos? THANK YOU. Also thanks to all who participated in this--and Reb? You have MY head spinning, as I too, just watched MY father die pound by pound and my family is still reeling--so the implications of your point is downright overwhelming and startling. Brad? You've been a true gentleman and I thank you. tim's angel...I thank you as well. And now, I think I'll begin my Xmas break, as I don't think my kids want philosophy for Christmas...
I'll be around, Happy Holidays to all, be it Solstice, or Hanukahh (never could spell that) or Christmas. I enjoyed. Peace to all.
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39 posted 12-07-2001 02:27 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

timothysangel ....

I too pray God's blessing on your life.  And through Jesus is the wonderful awe-inspring truth that we are forgiven of the terrible guilt and anguish of sin... whatever that may have involved for each of us.  

A blest holiday to all...

in love and friendship,

Stephen.
Brad
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40 posted 12-08-2001 05:58 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Stephen,

"I was trying to relate the importance of taking scriptures into overall context ... even the whole Bible,  measuring, balancing, and interpreting  scriptures with other scriptures."

--I agree with this, but is that how others view the Bible?  Aren't you leaving an opening for debate, discussion, disagreement while still retaining the Bible as authority? As a result, the reliance on the Bible as TRUTH is, as you say, mitigated, not because it's not the TRUTH but because we have to interpret it.

--Later, you point out that there's a Bible in the human heart and we should follow that as well (I liked the way that was written by the way). That's as good an anchor as any but it still doesn't alleviate the problems I, as you well know, want to concentrate on.

--Christians, in their reliance on TRUTH, forget that this is the situation were in and inevitably fall back on sound bites. These only convert the already converted. Come on guys, if you really believe in what you say, come up with better arguments to convert those who disagree with you.

"then why can't we decide it isn't humanity 1 month post birth?  The point is . . . where is the line?"

--That is the question. Birth, one month after, one month before --  all are legitimate positions. The difference is when do we have society and government interfere with the decisions of the care taker (the woman)? The trick is to persuade someone who doesn't believe in the Christian God and persuade him and her to your position.

--------------------------------

On metaphysical speculation:

--By positing an eternal soul who can look down and show disappointment at not being born, you also posit the ability to show approval. You separate the body from the soul in such a way as to make the body nothing more than a vehicle and, like buying a car, perhaps that soul can decide that that particular situation, that particular model, isn't to his or her liking.

--It's an argument for abortion as much as it is against one.

--The only way to escape this dilemma is through God's prohibition; a prohibition that has no more persuasive force than the fear of Zues's thunderbolt for many or, for you perhaps, the fear of being reincarnated as a mosquito.

-------------------------

Serenity,

I'm a gentleman? Don't suppose you want to remind my wife of that now and then?  

Brad
serenity blaze
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41 posted 12-08-2001 11:14 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

grinning...Brad? I would have to hear HER perspective first! and ok, ok, I'm GOING...

Local Rebel
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42 posted 12-10-2001 09:45 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Brad said:

quote:

--Christians, in their reliance on TRUTH, forget that this is the situation were in and inevitably fall back on sound bites. These only convert the already converted. Come on guys, if you really believe in what you say, come up with better arguments to convert those who disagree with you.




I wonder what argument would have to be made for you to change your position Brad...

I think for me it would have to be proven that there is sentience at conception... or at least be able to prove at one point the capacity for sentience exists... two brain cells able to synapse?  I don't know...

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


43 posted 12-10-2001 10:59 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

What about promoting adoption?

What about promoting the research and money for foetal transference rather than foetal elimination?

What about creating communities that stop stigmatizing women after the fact and work toward giving them a support network where intelligent decisions can be made regardless of someone's personal belief system?

These wouldn't necessarily change my mind but they're something we can agree on.

As Stephen, for example, well knows, I can not argue against his spritual beliefs, but I think too much time is spent trying to justify those beliefs and not enough acting on them.

Work with difference, not against it.

Brad

Interloper
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Deep in the heart


44 posted 12-11-2001 05:27 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Just thought I'd jump in here for a short comment or two.

In reading the foregoing I wondered if anybody would bring up the beating heart in a fetus.  Finally, Stephan did.

Then, Reb said he only wanted to be convinced that a fetus had sentience.  By definition (I know, I know, but Webster wrote one of my favorite books) a beating heart would be sentient because of the mere fact that it is "beating," which displays the contraction of muscles in response to nerve "commands" (stimulus) thereby displaying the sensation and perception of nerve stimuli.

Sooooo, I guess, by your definition, a fetus with a beating heart is a human being.

I liked (in a twisted sort of way) your use of Bible quotes.  You used Job, so I will give you a small quote from Jeremiah (they both start with a "J") ...  1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you... (oh, that was God talking).  We Christians believe every fetus has a soul.  Therefore, we cannot kill a being with a soul.

Gee, Reb, you call yourself an atheist yet you admitted to belief in God.  Lemme see now, Webster (here I go, again) says that and atheist is "one who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being."

So, maybe, you're not an atheist at all.  Maybe you're an agnostic (or, as written hereinbefore, a Gnostic).

Brad, I'm not forgetting you, my friend.  You said "Christians, in their reliance on TRUTH, forget that this is the situation were in and inevitably fall back on sound bites. These only convert the already converted. Come on guys, if you really believe in what you say, come up with better arguments to convert those who disagree with you."

Golly, am I supposed to convert you?  I don't think so, but I will say this ... I know the TRUTH and you do, too.  The difference is you won't admit it (that ought to stir up the embers a little )  

There were a couple of other points, but I said I'd be brief  

Regina, your beautiful comments speak volumes.  God bless you.

And, God bless you all as we enter into the season of celebrating His birth.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


45 posted 12-11-2001 05:47 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I never said I was an atheist.. I said I was an agnostic (stated here and on my website)... which.. is not the same as a gnostic...

Irish Rose already beat you to that verse Interloper on the previous page.

Lest there be any further hair splitting the definition of sentience I invoke is that of self awareness or consiousness.  But thanks for pointing out many words have multiple meanings in the English language.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 12-11-2001).]

Interloper
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Deep in the heart


46 posted 12-11-2001 06:05 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Reb, I could have swarn you said: "Like Einstein -- I believe there is a God, but I'm not convinced that he's particularly obsessed with human history -- at the same time -- neither do I think he plays dice."

I guess I was wrong  

Sorry, I missed that.  That is what I get for speed reading, huh?

Gee, you didn't comment on the fetus as a human and what it would take to change your mind.  Guess you were speed reading past that part, huh?

See, we DO have something in common after all

Merry Christmas, Reb.  

By the way, I agree with Brad, this was a VERY well written piece.  I hope you do not change it too awfully much in your own editing.  One of your better pieces in my opinion.
Local Rebel
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Southern Abstentia


47 posted 12-11-2001 06:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

That's exaclty what I said.

Atheism and Agnosticism are not the same.

The athiest says there is no god.

The agnostic either says we cannot know whether or not there is a god or that we cannot know god.  

The Gnostic says there is a God and we can and must know him.
Local Rebel
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48 posted 12-11-2001 06:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If you eliminate the word 'a' then the sentence is correct.

A fetus is human.

A corpse is human.

Neither are Natural Born (human) Citizens of the United States with Constitutional Rights.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


49 posted 12-11-2001 07:09 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

oops forgot to say thanks for the compliments on the peice..

I don't speed read -- I speed write..  

and happy holidays (whatever you celebrate) to all...
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