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Passions in Poetry

1984" Again

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Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


0 posted 08-05-2001 08:38 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Following Local Rebel's post in the Alley:

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential, command. [Winston's] heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him, the ease with which any Party intellectual would overthrow him in debate . . . And yet he was in the right!  . . . The obvious, the silly, and the true has got to be defended. Truisms are true, hold on to that! the solid world exists, its laws do not change. Stones are hard, water is wet, objects unsupported fall towards the earth's centre.  With the feeling that he was speaking to O'Brien, and also that he was setting forth and important axiom, [Winston] wrote: 'Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."

One question regarding this passage is interesting:

Which is more important:

1. The freedom to say "the truth".

2. The freedom to disagree with a government.

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


1 posted 08-06-2001 02:23 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

To me it seems that the freedom to disagree with the government is much more important. Not everybody agrees on what the truth is, especially when it comes to things like morality and religion. To say that it's more important to be able to speak the truth implies that there is only one version of truth, which in many cases is not true. But, of course, some people would disagree and say that there is one version of truth- to me, the truth is that there is more than one version. To people who think otherwise, I am wrong, and could even be seen as a liar.... which is exactly why it's pointless to say the truth is the most important thing.

You are more than the sum of what you consume
Desire is not an occupation
-Nicole Blackman/KMFDM

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


2 posted 08-07-2001 10:34 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The state legislature of Indiana once passed a law stating that (in Indiana) the value of Pi was 4 and not 3.1415.

How could anyone have argued the 'truth' without the ability to argue against the government?  This law was repealed.

However, it is still on the state books in Indiana that 'Spiteful Gossip' and 'Talking behind a person's back' are illegal.

What truth is there to argue against such stupidity?

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 08-07-2001).]

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


3 posted 08-11-2001 06:46 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Following the Chinese proverb/curse:

"May you live in interesting times"

Indiana must be a very interesting place to live.

You know, I don't even know if that proverb is Chinese.

Anyway,

Truth versus truths is an interesting way to put it, but I have found it confusing to explain that to people (and have confused the two myself at times). There may be something about the word that inherently dictates a 'oneness' to it.

I think it's easier to see it as multiple descriptions of the world, some being better than others for whatever goal we may have.

If this is true -- sorry -- then the point is to avoid monopolies on the truth and to continue to find different ways of describing things. In a multiplicity of descriptions, how do you decide which is better?

Try it out and see if it works.

Another good point (from Rorty) is the distinction between truth and truthfulness. Let's be honest in saying what we see, listen to others who might have different ways of seeing, and 'test' the two or three or four etc. ways rather than worry about the truth of things.

Talk to ya later,
Brad



Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


4 posted 08-11-2001 07:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Of course, what happens when the intentional lie works in the short term?

Just curious, does anybody believe in the unintentional lie?

I would call it a mistake.

Brad
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


5 posted 08-12-2001 05:45 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well Brad,

One needn't come to Indiana to encounter stupid laws -- from my home state of Tennessee:

You can't shoot any game other than whales from a moving automobile.

Hollow logs may not be sold.

Any person crippling, killing or in any way destroying a proud ***** that is running at large shall not be held liable for the damages due to such killing or destruction.

More than 8 women may not live in the same house because that would constitute a brothel.

It is illegal to use a lasso to catch a fish.

"Crimes against nature" are prohibited.

Giving and receiving oral sex is still prohibited by law.

Stealing a horse is punishible by hanging.

Driving is not to be done while asleep.

The age of consent is 16, but 12 if the girl is a virgin.

It is legal to gather and consume roadkill.

And some municiapal/county laws in that state:  
Dyersburg
It is illegal for a woman to call a man for a date.

Fayette County
You may not have more than five inoperable vehicles on a piece of property.

Germantown
Signs that contain the image of food items or that are illuminated are not allowed.

Lenoir City
When you pull up to a stop sign you must fire a gun out the window to warn horse carriages that you are coming.

Lexington
No one may eat ice cream on the sidewalk.
Spitting on the sidewalk is prohibited.

Knoxville
In front of their buildings, all businesses must have a "hitching post."

Memphis
Illegal for a woman to drive a car unless there is a man either running or walking in front of it waving a red flag to warn approaching motorists and pedestrians.

It's illegal for frogs to croak after 11 PM.

Panhandlers must first obtain a $10 permit before begging on the streets of downtown Memphis. (Passed in 1996)

It is illegal to give any pie to fellow diners. It is also illegal to take unfinished pie home. All pie must be eaten on the premises.

Nashville

Males may not be sexually aroused in public.

Oneida
An ordinance forbids anyone to sing the song "It Ain't Goin' To Rain No Mo'
www.dumblaws.com has dumblaws from all over the country and the globe -- a humerous but sad bit of browsing.

And as far as truth vs. truths.. I prefer to make the distinction between truth and what is 'true'.

For example -- I will often say that something needn't be 'true' to contain 'truth'. The Bible, for example, does not need to be literally true to contain truth.

An unintentional lie?  I'm afraid I'd need a scenario or a definition.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


6 posted 08-12-2001 07:50 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I was making fun of myself. I wrote that and started laughing but I just wondered if others thought there was such a thing.

Brad
Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


7 posted 08-13-2001 01:08 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

Yes I think there is such a thing as an unintentional lie.  Propagating something as "true" which is not true, allbeit mistakenly.  It's still a lie in the sense that it is not true.  A mistake is a good description perhaps of an unintentional lie, but perhaps too general to denominate.  For mistakes can be verbal or non-verbal and apply to a wide range of actions.  I guess it all depends on our definition of  "lie".  Does it mean to merely tell an untruth with or without malicious intent, or to do so with full knowledge with or without malicious intent?  Personally I prefer the first.  But I grant that an unintentional lie may be spoken mistakenly.

Stephen.


[This message has been edited by Stephanos (edited 08-13-2001).]

 
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