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Allan Riverwood
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25 posted 03-08-2001 02:13 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

I would really love to await a reply (no sarcasm, I would) but I have to be going to bed now.
Please email me at least, Brad. I would really like to speak to you.

Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan

Brad
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26 posted 03-08-2001 03:15 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

The game has begun. If you don't get the e-mail, please tell me here.

Brad
fractal007
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27 posted 03-08-2001 03:39 AM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Brad:

I agree with you with regards to concerns about propaganda. But perhaps we should start a new thread here, because I have a slight disagreement with you.

"Oh yeah, that's right, you're teens. I'm supposed to be nice to you. Sorry, the game stops here!!!!). I was a teen and I remember looking for a place like this."

I find this rather offensive in its implication. Perhaps I am reading you wrong here, but are you saying that teens are incapable of thought and conscious comprehension beyond simple teen things?

Perhaps its this autism of mine, but while I was a teen[well, I guess I still am, since I'm 19 right now] I often thought and read about astronomy and debated with people about things such as evolution, church and state separation and the such. Maybe that's not intelligent stuff to discuss. I dunno. Of course, I'm not exactly a normal teen as I've already told you, with the autism and all. I suspect that you may have certain stereotypes, however I do not wish to label them on teens in general. Instead, I will post my own life's rebuttals of them.

1. Teens think about sex often and this clouds their rational thought.

OK, firstly, let me just say that these are my own wordings here.

In my life sex has been nothing more than an archaic evolutionary mechanism for propagating this species. Because of this, it has become about as important to me as a dirty blank scrap of paper on the floor. Sure, feelings of lust often crawl into my mind, but I deal with them in a rational manner.
My rational stand: The human race has no need for further defense through propagation. I therefore see no need to assist in such a defense. Besides, my genes probably aren't all that special anyway.

2. Teens always try to cause trouble

Actually, I must confess, I was cynical of most fellow teens in my youth. I felt as though I was the only one who didn't want to cause trouble. This was most likely some form of mild delusion.

3. Teens don't have any good ideas or thoughts.

I had better ideas and thoughts than some thirty year olds when I was 14 years old. They actually acknowledged this.


So, although I may not be able to compete with someone of great intellectual standing, such as yourself, I don't have a stupid mind, nor do I expect you to treat me nicely. I expect you to treat me as someone who is trying to unravel the answers to big questions. Being treated nice has nothing to do with this.

Perhaps I have been wasting my breath here, but I felt that this needed to be said. Maybe I will end up falling into the same category in your mind. Maybe I already am there...

Although I felt it rather odd to see a poem posted in the philosophy forum, I still feel that a philosophical discussion on things such as the individual as opposed to society is quite warranted, considering the forum at which this piece was posted.

"If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh"

-- Magus
Brad
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28 posted 03-08-2001 04:28 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

My concerns with teens are relatively small. I am interested in what people think. If you wish to say something, say it. Do not pretend that something is cruel because you disagree, that something is horrible because you disagree, that something is somehow wrong because you disagree-- start thinking, please. Start planning your thoughts.

Please start to ask me questions if age really matters here. Right now, I don't care how old you are.

Brad
Allan Riverwood
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29 posted 03-08-2001 08:16 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

I didn't get the email. Please note my address is wayfinder00@hotmail.com which means the last two characters are zeroes, not Os.
I've seen people have trouble with this before.
Thanks for your time. See you when I do.
~Allan

Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan

Brad
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30 posted 03-08-2001 08:41 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Your address doesn't seem to work (5 times)but mine does. Your turn now. You want to talk, it's your turn.

Brad
Allan Riverwood
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31 posted 03-08-2001 08:42 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Okies.

Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan

Allan Riverwood
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32 posted 03-08-2001 09:24 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

It's in the mail. Hope this works.

Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan

Ron
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33 posted 03-08-2001 11:44 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

In a sense, this thread brings up the question of why this forum even exists. I mean, why would we want a Philosophy forum on a site that is obviously dedicated to writing? In what way are the two linked?

Philosophy was, in fact, one of the original five forums created at Passions, predating both the Adult forum (which was the first one created after we opened) and Teen (the second one created, just a day after Adult). And, just as Adult and Teen were different sides of the same equation, Philosophy 101 was created to help balance another of our original forums - Feelings.

The Feelings forum represented the emotional side of our nature, while Philosophy represented the rational side. That's not to suggest the two can ever be entirely separated, but if you stop to think about it, those are really the only two things we ever explore in our writing. Feelings and thought comprise our entire Universe.

Learning to feel is easy (though hardly simple). From that first moment we escape the womb, and probably long before, our senses and emotions are linked in a dance that quickly defines our nature. We hurt, we hunger, we find relief. We love.

Learning to think isn't as natural to us as feeling, but it defines our nature just as much as emotion. Some might argue more. Rationality, after all, is perhaps the only thing differentiating us from animals, who otherwise share our more common emotions. Yet, in spite of that, thinking requires effort. Without effort, our thoughts and rational mind cannot be divorced from our emotions, and what we "think" is too often just a mirror reflection of what we "feel." Is that necessarily a bad thing? It depends entirely on what you want to accomplish.

Just as Feeling and Thought comprise our Universe, our purpose in communication is equally divided (though never entirely separated). We write either to share our feelings or to convince others of our beliefs. And, yea, that's a gross over-simplifications, but that's still the essence of writing. Feelings. Thoughts.

When you post your words in one of the forums here, part of the reader's job is to discern your purpose. Surprisingly, that's usually not as difficult as it might seem. But this is one of those instances where I suspect purpose has been misread. Had I read Crash&Burn's words in the Prose forum, or perhaps in Teen, I would have assumed them an expression of feelings. "This is the way I feel sometimes, and this is the result of those feelings." I may or may not have ever shared those feelings, I might or might not be able to understand them, but at no point can I really argue them. Had they been posted in Critical Analysis, I might have suggested that "showing" is more effective than "telling," and that effective imagery is a useful tool for evoking emotion, but I couldn't very well debate the validity of the feelings. They exist.

The problem, of course, is that I didn't read the words in Prose, Teen, or CA. I read them in Philosophy 101, which is expressly set aside for discussing issues that, by their very nature, center around rational thought. I have to assume, since the words are posted in this forum, that Crash&Burn is trying to convince me that mad people are sane and dangerous people should be allowed to continue hurting others. I actually believe there is some truth to the hypothesis, especially the last sentence he wrote, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to accept it at face value. I'm going to ask for clarification (let's define our terms) and probably want to express an opposing view. If you shut me down by saying the words should mean anything I want (oh, you're talking about angry people, not insane ones) or refuse to listen to my viewpoint, I'm going to feel you are breaking the rules that rational thought depends upon.

I'm going to feel cheated.

And, yes, rational thinking - or what we often call critical thinking - has rules. You may not agree with them, you may not even follow them, but unless you recognize their existence there can be no possible discussion. You might as well throw a German and a Swede in a room and expect them to communicate by sign language. Indeed, they will probably have more in common than two men, one discussing Feelings and the other concentrating on Logic. I'm quite sure the German and Swede will experience far less frustration, and probably less bruising.

The first requirement for Critical Thinking is one Teens often have in abundance - skepticism. The willingness to question the norm is crucial. But it's not enough. Skepticism, by itself, just labels a person "Mary, Mary, quite contrary," and rarely convinces. It doesn't raise awareness, only hackles, doesn't bring about change, only frustration. Question the norm, by all means. But be willing, also, to explore where those questions might take you.

Not incidentally, since I think we're all here to learn better ways to communicate, the best writing usually takes a healthy measure from both plates. The best writing shares emotion and convinces.


Swamp了aeryie
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fairyland....of course;)


34 posted 03-08-2001 01:12 PM       View Profile for Swamp了aeryie   Email Swamp了aeryie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Swamp了aeryie

okay,lemee get this straight,brad,you disagree. Then why not say "i disagree" and then tell us what exactly it is that you beleive,and if you must tear down our thoughts,please do it politely. Because it is my opinion that your being a wee bit hostile,and i think that's out of place here.
Dopey Dope
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35 posted 03-08-2001 01:31 PM       View Profile for Dopey Dope   Email Dopey Dope   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dopey Dope

Brad, you've been hostile since the beginning. Let me clear things up here......I am from Puerto Rico....I live in San Juan.....I stated in the previous post that C&B was a SCHOOL friend of mine.....meaning.....well lemme think here.......could it be that he's in my school? And where is my school BRad?? Could it be in PUERTO RICO? Wow......I think so.
Ok so I think we've cleared the fact that my friend ISN'T a liar.
I think we can also clear the fact that, yes I am being quite sarcastic.
Oh but you know what? I'm just acting into accordance to Mr. Moderator here.
You see Brad, I've read up on ALL the material on how to be a moderator....You are supposed to be a role model to us all.
I think that from this thread all I've learned about being a moderator is that you can call people liars, be sarcastic, and quite hostile.
I applaud you for your mature actions here on this thread.
You claim that these are "GAMES"....sure I can see your philosophical stand point, but the world isn't out to get you, and by all means not trying to out smart you. At least not us, your fellow members here at Passions.
We are your FAMILY.....look up....to the right......A FAMILY OF Friends....notice.......the words FAMILY and FRIENDS........so please....before you act hostile I think you should assess whether the innitial party (this being C&B) was hostile or not......and from the looks of it the answer is NO.

Once again, your family friend
Mr. Dopey

aka Javier Eduardo Agosto
and speaking on the behalf of Jorge Canals (C&B)



I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust.

I'm in love with my shadow
I admire it daily
fractal007
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36 posted 03-08-2001 01:53 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Brad:

What exactly characterizes a typical American in your opinion?

"If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh"

-- Magus
Craig
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37 posted 03-08-2001 04:25 PM       View Profile for Craig   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craig

I think there are opportunities for discussion in almost everything we write, say and do this thread is no exception. The original post seemed to me to be an open question on the ability of people, deemed sane by societal standards, to cast judgement on people who are different. It questions whether a person separated by madness from the knowledge of self can attain a better understanding of his/her surroundings. It also raised questions about whether madness and genius are related.

The perception, often proffered as an excuse for eccentricity, that madness and genius are separated by a very fine dividing line is, if societies definitions of each affliction are taken to be true, grossly exaggerated. However examples of this potential symbiosis are offered in the form of cases where people exhibit the symptoms and mannerisms society prescribes to the mentally afflicted yet who also exhibit amazing brilliance, albeit within narrowly defined fields.
Which are they mentally retarded or examples of genius? My own view is that they are both flawed and gifted in the same measure as those people deemed to be sane, the only difference is that the distribution of genius is more focused in one than the other.

Following this line of argument leads to the inevitable (but not necessarily correct) conclusion that genius can, in some cases, be construed to be close to madness.

On another note, Brad, you said earlier in this post:

If everybody can interpret it the way they want, then it doesn't mean anything.

Im a little worried with this statement, on a couple of levels. The first would be that it seems to fly in the face of one of the mainstays of poetry, in fact its about the strongest argument Ive ever read AGAINST poetry. The readers interpretation of a poem in my opinion, even when seemingly at odds with the authors intention is one of poetrys greatest strengths. Id go one step further and say that without the readers ability to fix his/her own reference points and inferences on a piece poetry as we know it wouldnt exist.

The second level is that this statement seems to suggest that individual ideas or opinions based upon personal interpretation have no worth. That only one interpretation is ever right and any deviation is wrong by default. If theres only one way of interpreting everything why do things change? Why do people discuss things? Why do people hold differing beliefs and views?

I feel a little happier believing that everybody can interpret things the way they want, that it could mean anything. Proving it of course is a different matter.

Thanks for the chance to read and reply


[This message has been edited by Craig (edited 03-08-2001).]
Crash&Burn
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38 posted 03-08-2001 05:01 PM       View Profile for Crash&Burn   Email Crash&Burn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crash&Burn

I thank you all for posting on the subject even if at times it did deviate from it's original topic. Id like to also thank those who were able to interpret my original thought and were able to explain it on better terms than I ever could seeing that Im still just a teen. Personal note to Brad: Try to be more open to ideas, this was just to be a friendly discussion no hostility required. Next time you wish to analyze every minuscule fact try to also take into consideration our thoughts and ideas because we are entitled to them.
Once again thank you all and I wish to have the pleasure of witnessing such a strong argument towards a single thought in order to preserve it, not kill it.



I see the darkness coming all is bleak...



[This message has been edited by Crash&Burn (edited 03-08-2001).]
fractal007
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39 posted 03-08-2001 07:28 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Crash&Burn:

QUOTE:

"Try to be more open to ideas, this was just to be a friendly discussion no hostility required. Next time you wish to analyze every minuscule fact try to also take into consideration our thoughts and ideas because we are entitled to them. "

I cannot allow this one to slip past me. I apologize if I sound harsh, however, I do know where you are coming from. I have felt this way before. However, I was not warranted in feeling that way, not in an intellectual setting such as this.

You are indeed entitled to your own ideas. However, others are entitled to "analyze every minuscule fact" as you've put it, with regards to those ideas. That's part of freedom of thought. And just for the record, in writing these words, I am not regarding you as a "teen to be handled" or anything else of that nature, but as a fellow thinker. You must keep in mind that analysis and thinking are often quite vastly different realms from those of emotion. Mixing the two can result in sloppy thinking, such as the half wit evidence put forth by people like new agers, for their findings on things such as astral projection. They don't hold up against a serious scientific analysis, but they sound nice, and that's all that matters to them.

As far as hostility is concerned, Brad's comments on you being teens and so forth, seem to be the only hostile things I've seen him post here. I've already talked to him about that. Picking things apart is essentially what people do here. Analysis is the name of the game in philosophical understanding, knowledge and pursuit. At least, that's how I see it. However, I am sure that philosophy can be seen in much more different lights. However, emotional appeal has little room in a logical discussion.

"If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh"

-- Magus
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


40 posted 03-08-2001 11:25 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

It seems I have a number of issues to address here:

Fractal: I'll discuss the typcal American in another thread.

Craig: I'll address your concerns about interpretation in another thread.

On the teen issue: I don't think I was critical of teens. I am, and was, critical of the idea of a teen. I don't think we should create a category that allows irresponsibility to flourish and, at the same time, demands to be heard and treated as the rest of us. To my mind, it has to be one or the other. The moment you label yourself as a teen (the age is unimportant) you expect to be looked at in a different way, you expect to be treated in a different way. Teens and adults categorize in exactly the same way but if you feel a part of this thing called teenness, you set yourself up for stereotyping and then cry foul when it is actually done. At the same time, you use the same stereotyping to avoid conflict and disagreement. I agree that stereotyping is wrong but I felt that you were using the category as more of a way out of a discussion than as a way to discuss anything in this thread. This is what I saw when C and B said I am not 'a full adult'. I actually give teens more respect by not allowing you to get away with, "I'm only a teen." In my opinion, this denigrates, demolishes, any real opinion you have even before you say it but it's not the "teen" part, it's the "only" part.

I thought I was being polite when I said I don't think this is the right forum for this. I have read very little so far that tells me my initial feelings were incorrect. When I say, I don't think you've thought this through yet, that you are appealing to emotion rather than intellect (silly games), this should have been your cue to discuss these issues with me. Instead I am called hostile and cruel. Why is this? Because I am wrong? Perhaps I am. Show me I am.

All too often politeness is used to avoid thought. All too often the 'right to an opinion' means the right to say something without repercussion, without disagreement. Ironically, the 'right to an opinion', therefore, squashes another's right to his or her opinion. If you reread what I wrote, you'll notice that I asked several questions, that I encouraged participation, that I complimented C and B. Not one of those questions was answered directly (Dopey answered one sarcastically -- one can almost here the 'duh' -- but doesn't seem to realize that I was trying not to make assumptions here.

I did make one mistake here (Okay, maybe I made more than one). When I said the post sounded like a typical American I originally had, "even if you're not American". Somewhere along the line that part got deleted (I thought it was still there for some reason) and that might explain part of my 'hostility'.

My second mistake was not addressing the issues of the original post (I was reacting more than acting) but I was really trying to avoid that because I believe it to be incoherent or, at best, nothing more than an extrapolation of a cliche. I believe that cliche is wrong and dangerous. If I take the original post seriously, and I do, I am forced to tell someone this. How does one do this without stepping on people's toes?

Crash and Burn, to his credit, did try to explain his post but he ends the explanation with "I think you are smart enough to interpret correctly whant I'm trying to say so deal with it." How do I deal with this? He is referring to my typos complaint but what he is actually showing me is that he doesn't care what he says, he just wants to say it. If I don't get it, so what? Fair enough, he has a lot of friends who 'get it' but to me this is simply a microcosm of the 'they' in the original post.

I don't like assumption and assertion, I don't think many of you do either, but you can't beat assumptions and assertions with more of the same. It quickly degenerates into rudeness (on both sides) if you take things seriously. If you do take this seriously, please read my disagreements with the post and the explanation. If you don't, what does it matter what I say?


Brad


Brad
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41 posted 03-08-2001 11:34 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ina,
I'm not making fun of you. I'm trying to e-mail you seriously. I don't know what the problem is. Perhaps I'm having problems with accessing hotmail.com?

Brad
Allan Riverwood
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42 posted 03-09-2001 01:15 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Did you get my email, Brad?
Perhaps it is something to do with your email... you should contact someone about it.

If I had your eyes, I'd be blind. For I can only see out of my own. ~~Carly Van Dort

Acies
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Twilight Zone


43 posted 03-09-2001 09:41 AM       View Profile for Acies   Email Acies   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Acies

Seems like this post is getting more replies here than the double post in teen, so I'll just lock the post in teen. Crash, I hope you understand that it's against guidelines to double post.

"So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this give life to thee." W.S.
 
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