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warmhrt
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since 12-18-1999
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25 posted 02-10-2001 01:45 AM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

First of all, I don't think the youths you are speaking of are true existentialists...they are only choosing certain parts of the belief system to suit their needs. One of those needs is to rebel...to shock the older generations. If any of them truly wanted to end their lives, then perhaps those persons have a biological predisposition to the chemical imbalance of depression. You stated that they feel life has no meaning...thus no hope, and a loss of hope is one of the main symptoms of depression.

This hopelessness is evident in this portion of a suicide note by Russian poet, Sergei Esenen: "...In this life there's nothing new in dying,
But nor, of course, is living any newer."

Artist Ralph Barton had an uncanny insight into his illness when he wrote this suicide note: "Everyone who has known me and who hears of this will have a different hypothesis to offer to explain why I did it. Practically all of these hypotheses will be dramatic-and completely wrong. Any sane doctor knows that the reasons for suicide are invariably psychopathological. Difficulties in life merely precipitate the event-and the true suicidal type manufactures his own difficulties." He goes on to say that his illness has taken too much of a toll on his life...he can no longer work...he has lost his sense of purpose and of hope.

Most of us have problems...very stressful ones at times, but we don't go out and kill ourselves over them, because we feel a sense of hope that things can get better. Someone with a chemical imbalance can only see the problem... Do you see what I'm trying to say?

I hope I have answered some of your questions...and Brad is right. Ultimately, we do not have control over death.

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu
fractal007
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since 06-01-2000
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26 posted 02-10-2001 03:24 AM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

WarmHrt:

Impressive insight.  I live in a family that has depression.  I have seen a TRULY depressed person, and it's not a pretty sight.  I will not go into details about who this person was, but I will say that this person was not sitting there joyfully talking about "ending it" if things got too bad.  Instead, this person looked like he/she was "melting down" mentally.  It almost looked as though there was an intense physical pain.  

I am glad that you are here presenting the clinical and medical/psychological truths about suicide, so that we do not forget to take them into account when discussing all this philosophical stuff.
warmhrt
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since 12-18-1999
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27 posted 02-10-2001 10:01 AM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

The person you were speaking of was in pain...an intense psychic pain that is worse than physical pain. We can endure physical pain, knowing that it will end or be relieved...we try our best to overcome it. The person with psychic pain cannot see any end...they have no hope. In their altered state of perception, the present and the pain are all consuming and never-ending, unless, of course treatment is sought, and is successful (which it is, in most cases).

There are vast numbers of people who are in such pain, but are able to, for the most part, keep it hidden from others. The group that does this most often are young males (probably due to the traditional male upbringing...don't show emotion...be macho). They suffer in silence, and alone, until something happens that reveals their condition, such as a suicide attempt. All other signs before this were usually attributed to "teen angst", growing pains, or rebellion. These are the depressed who are most at risk of dying.

Do you see how this group you speak of sounds as if they have given up on life...how can there be life without hope?
True existentialists do have goals, and go after them passionately...which does give their lives meaning and purpose. To reach goals, one has to have hope that the goal will be achieved.

To the person you know who is suffering from depression...I wish them the strength to seek treatment, and that it brings them back from the darkness and into the light.



"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu


[This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 02-10-2001).]
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


28 posted 02-10-2001 05:19 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Kris,

You're making some solid points (and defending existentialists no less -- gotta love that!   )

Still, if you have the time, could you elaborate on of the points you made earlier:

You said:

"Fifty years ago when someone was depressed, they had a morally and spiritually supportive culture...not so now."

Certainly, there are more support groups today designed to help the depressed than fifty years ago. I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying but I'd like a little more explanation.  I think you're arguing for a smaller, stronger community type structure but I could be wrong.  This same community also limited individual freedom, folks.

Second, I'm not convinced that psychic pain is more intense than physical pain. As you have pointed out, psychic pain is often the result of physical (chemical, neurological)problems. Also, all pain is psychic. Isn't the difference really one of the perception of permanence and the perception of transience? I think it might be better to stick with the loss of hope idea (which you also pointed out) as the distinctive factor between suicidal and endurable pain.  That is, a depressed person looks as if they're in pain because they are -- it is the same thing.

I'll have to come back to the macho bit because there I disagree.

Brad

  

warmhrt
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since 12-18-1999
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29 posted 02-11-2001 01:38 PM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

Brad,

It was not my intention to "defend" existentialism.  

I beg to differ...psychic pain is very different from physical pain. Physical pain has a point of origin that one can identify. The nerve pathways make a journey to the brain, then back to the cause. Psychic pain is pain of thought or perception...more a cloud of pain that is just there, it's origin unidentifiable to most. That is the reason it is so very painful, so terrifying. If one has a broken leg or a migraine, one knows the cause, and why the pain is there. We do not know the real reason for psychic pain...why most mental illnesses occur. We know one of the results of the disease process is a dispuption of certain brain chemicals, and that we can treat that symptom. The cause, however, remains unknown.

Even when one who is educated in most aspects of depression becomes a victim to it's psychic pain, the knowledge does nothing to lessen that pain. The sufferer cannot point to a gash on the head, and say, "That's why I'm feeling like this", or take a pain pill and soon get some relief.

Another reason it is differentiated from physical pain is the symptom of the loss of hope. As I stated before, the psychic pain is all consuming, blinding one to tomorrow, yet every pain of yesterday comes back with a vengeance.

I reiterate that psychic pain is very much different than physical pain, and that needs to be understood when addressing the needs of someone with depression.

Secondly, on the point that we had a more supportive culture fifty years ago, I was speaking, as you said, of community. The family unit was highly valued, children were raised with someone at home with them; they felt loved, wanted. They developed a respect for authority, and spiritual and moral values held an important place in their lives.

These values can prove to assist someone with depression and suicidal thoughts. Deeply rooted values add strength to the will to live. It can become a battle of "right and wrong" in the mind of someone fighting off thoughts of suicide, which are not conciously brought to mind...they just appear.

I am NOT saying that those who have died as a result of suicide had weak moral character, or less values than anyone else. Depression CAN become so powerful that it could overcome the strongest of people. I am just saying that deeply rooted values can be a defensive measure against suicidal thoughts, and that I feel this is one of the reasons our suicide rates are rising dramatically among young people.

Many of our youth today have not developed strong morals and ethics, and lack a strong respect for life. I do not blame them for this. I blame our disintegrating sense of community, of structure, of moral and spiritual values. The media and many other segments of our culture who put making a buck before all else are also to blame.

These youths, such as those mentioned in the start of this thread, are prime targets, not only for death by suicide if they become, or are, dpressed, but could also easily become victims of accidental overdose, or death by violence.

I would like to commend Ron for his stance on suicide...we need more responsible people like him on the internet.

Kris   

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu





[This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 02-11-2001).]
fractal007
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since 06-01-2000
Posts 2032


30 posted 02-12-2001 12:06 AM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Brad:

You say that all pain is psychic.  I agree with you to the extent that all painful feeling is a reaction by the brain.  However, that's where I stop.  Psychic/mental or whatever other words one might call depression-type conditions are generated in the mind.  They are not necessarilly in response to some external stimulus like physical pain is.  Yes, one can easilly and convincingly prove that physical and psychic pain are one in the same because both operate the same way, namely by some process involving neurology and chemistry.  However a psychic pain can often be experienced as physical pain backwards.  It starts "in the head" and then procedes, almost like some sickening things taking over one's body, and renders us incapable of performing much of our day-to-day routines.  I know I will sound rather new-agey when I say this, but in order for one to be healthy, one must be balanced in both mind, body, and[assuming that this exists]spirit.  If memory serves, many followers of Zen in its many forms will tell you that life is a constant balance.  Zen is not the truth, but the way to the truth.  

As far as current spirituality is concerned, it seems to me that there are more spiritually inclined groups.  The only problem is that there are so many of them that it is often very confusing.  That's why if I were going to become a fundamentalist, I would choose to be a Bahai fundamentalist.  That way I could have my cake and eat it too.  Hopwever, I am not a fundamentalist and do not plan on becoming one at any time in the near future.  

But my point here is that before we can start with the jibber jabber about spirituality we need to come to a common ground about just what spirituality is.  Many people define it in different ways.  For example, I might define it as being the "study/practice" of that part of ourselves that transcends our existence in this universe, but is still unceverably linked to it.  Another person might define it as being that metaphysical aspect of ourselves which is "seated at the right hand of God," or some other distant incomprehensible locale.

There are many different definitions of something which many claim exists.  Does this mean that all are following some dilusion?  Not necessarily, but quite possibly thair idea of what this thing which exists is may be a dilusion in itself.  So, do we throw it away?  I don't think we ought to until we've studied its effects on people.  Many would call these placebo effects.  But if these effects are indeed placebo in nature, should we get rid of spirituality?  I will wait for people's answers.

WarmHrt:

You suggest that the family values of the past helped our children.  This may have been so, however I do not think that trying to return to these ideas will help any.  Women and men are starting to grow closer in their individual rights.  This is not an easy issue to solve, however I do not believe that forcing one member of the family to stay at home with the children will help any.  This is what the fundamentalist Christians do, and it drives me up the wall.  I will quote something to you that sounds to me like something which is nothing less than Orwellian in its idea of suppressing freedom of thought and action in women:

"Several years ago, my wife started feeling inadequate because she was 'just a housewife and a mother.'  After some discussion we realized she was being influenced in her thinking by the editorial bias or certain women's magazines.  She promptly canceled her subscriptions."

--  Patrick Morley, The Man in the Mirror, P 138

What this is saying is that for women, if it suggests that you are anything more than an object or servant of your husband, don't lissen to it.  I apologize if I sound harsh here, but I simply cannot stand this idea of suppressing the rights of one group of humans and letting another do all the thinking, working, and enjoying of life.  

I have often considered that there is a higher evil power, Satan perhaps, influencing me in my thinking.  However, one needs to be careful with this mentality.  It can lead to people telling you that one group of people is decieved by Satan, therefore you shouldn't go near them.  That's a virtual gag order.  

However, I agree with you, we need more firmly based spirituality, not all this watered down commercial/psychological/spiritual stuff that so many people try to peddle to innocent easy targets.  I think that we need to rediscover ourselves.  We've just finished having science "destroy" our previous conceptions of the world, and perhaps even religion.  However, these conceptions, such as creationism and other ideals brought forth by fundamentalist religion, are man made.  They needed to be destroyed so that we could get to the window of opportunity we're at now.  We have the opportunity now to find what truly makes us human.  I believe that if we do this, we will have a much greater chance of finding common ground and fighting off the real "monsters and predators" - those inside our minds.  They're things such as greed, lust for power, and other things which separate us all from one another.  Some call them memes, others call them demons.  But the point is, I would not be surprised if they were the main contributors to our current predicament of loss of meaning.  Yes, one can argue that this is as a result of evolution, and we don't really have a higher purpose.  But we do have the "higher" thinking.  So now what are we going to do with it?

Finally, everyone, please forgive any spelling errors in here.  I have a rather nasty and annoying cold virus attacking my body right now, and my mind isn't up to the kind of technical thinking required for messing around with grammar, punctuation, and spelling.  I hope to be better soon.

[This message has been edited by fractal007 (edited 02-12-2001).]
Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


31 posted 02-12-2001 12:16 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I am a Registered Nurse and having seen many examples (in a clinical setting) of both mental pain and bodily pain, I have to agree with warmhrt, psychological pain is different in many ways from physical pain and usually harder to grapple with by individuals and health care professionals.

   Physical pain always has a physiological cause (even if in some cases it cannot be identified or fixed by physicians).  Somewhere there is a break down in the physical anatomy and physiology of the human body.  And though chemical imbalances in the brain can cause depression, often depression and feelings of hopelessness involve other dynamics which are spiritual in nature.

   For example, a person's social and family history may contribute greatly to mental illness.  If John (my imaginary example) went through years of child abuse, both physical and psychological, his present condition of clinical depression could very well be the result of never having a true example of a loving parental figure in his life.  When this is lacking it is difficult to learn how to love others or ourselves.  

    I believe these conditions cannot be always accurately explained away by chemical impairment.  Yes there are chemical imbalances in the pathological brain, but I believe this can be the result of spiritual disorder and crisis, not always the other way around.  Maybe that's why physical pain is often easier to treat...just deal with the neurons and their cell receptors with narcotics or other pain meds, or fix the physical source of pain,  (of course to complicate matters a person with chronic long-term pain can also develop psych problems from the trauma).  But to help psychological pain, often the deep rooted social, mental, and spiritual pathologies have to be exposed and dealt with.  But yes I do believe many psych illness' are caused primarily from chemical imbalance...just not all... with many others, the phsiological problems are secondary.

Also since existentialism was brought up along with other philosophies or belief systems, I will say that these can influence mental health greatly, especially in connection with hope.  If an overall scheme of reality is accepted that offers little or no real hope, it's no surprise that hopelessness ensues.
Stephanos
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Statesboro, GA, USA


32 posted 02-12-2001 01:37 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Frac,

respectfully I disagree with this statement...

"however I do not believe that forcing one member of the family to stay at home with the children will help any.  This is what the fundamentalist Christians do"

This seems like a response made from a quick glance rather than a long and multifaceted study of what Christians (in a broad sense) believe and teach regarding the role of husbands and wifes ... and men and women.
Of course I understand that this too is exactly the way many professing Christians have looked at it as well.  A man who is nominally a Christian who feels somehow that women are inferior and mere servants, can easily uphold his practice of domineering by saying that's what the scriptures teach.  He can even quote a few passages from the bible (out of context of course) which when standing alone seem to actually support his view. It's called twisting the scriptures to fit a certain mindset or ideology or practice.  The outward organization of "churches" probably hold alot of people like this, or others who perhaps are more sincere but unstudied or ill-taught... all of these give Chirstians a bad name in a sense.

I would suggest a further look into what the scriptures teach (holistically) about these things.  It's possible to take a few square inches of a painting (If someone has extracted that one little part out and put it in a smaller frame) and ascribe to it wrong ideas about its beauty, meaning, or focus, when if the whole painting could be seen, the judgement would be entirely different.  That's what I feel many have done (both Christians and non-Christians) with scriptural teachings about the roles of men and women/ husbands and wives.

Though the scriptures definitely teach that under God the husband is in head position in the marriage (in hierarchy of authority, not of value worth or skill), there has been a misconception of this line of authority and what it means.  The woman in not in slavery, or forced servanthood or bondage.  When in Genesis ch. 3 God said to the woman "your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you", he was pronouncing the future results of the curse of sin...where men in selfishness and pride would dominate women (and this is exactly what has happened in history many times over -ask the ERA!).  This was not God's will, but the consequences of wrong choices / sin.  

Some say Eve was called a "help mate" for Adam.  But this is wrong.  The phrase is "help meet..." which means fitting, right or well complimenting.  Men really do need help!  Most women will agree!  Nope... all of them will agree I'm sure.

Some feel that women are to be "glorified" babysitters and maids in accordance to the biblical view.  This just isn't true.  Try reading Proverbs 31:10-31 which is a picture of the model spiritual woman...  She is an icon of strength, and though her heart is in the center of her home, she is dynamic in commerce, art, philanthropy, knowledge and management skills.

And yes, the bible does suggest that family affairs should be a wife's first priority but it never legalistically ties her down to a few monotinous chores.  It liberates her rather than limits her.  However any mindset that places career, prestige, or money above the high and honorable calling of motherhood (if she is a mother) in the mind of a wife is not praised by the scriptures.

Another misconception is that the bible teaches that wives are to submit to husbands in a one way street situation.  Yes the bible teaches that wives should obey their husbands (in the Lord).  But the bible also teaches that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church.
  I think of story of Jesus choosing to bend down and humbly wash his disciples feet... How he served and submitted himself. Isn't this a more balanced view?  Both parters of this dance bow to each other at different and fitting times.  No one way submission here, no room for selfishness or pride.

Another consideration is that these directives are given to Christians in the bible, not to non-Christians.  The christian marriage should reflect an image to outsiders with a powerful serenity of life moreso than verbally.  I'm not into preaching with a sneer on my face that a whole world is wrong for not living this way.  I'd rather draw them by what they see.

But overall I do agree with Warmhrt that when moral values and more traditional views of marriage and family were more widespread, the fabric of society was more integrated and strong, lending to a kind of stablility where the psychological pathologies of today were less rampant.

Don't mean to preach or ramble on, I just felt like some misconceptions needed to be adressed.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


33 posted 02-12-2001 02:23 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, you guys have made my argument for me. If you want to distinguish certain types of pain, that's fine with me but I am not convinced that the distinction is psychic/physical is as useful as many are making it out to be. In fact, I think it can be harmful because of the connotation of psychic (what else comes to mind when you read that word?). Unfortunately, the same thing happens when you use the word mental, the terms already imply a certain mysticism to the Western individual --ie an unexplainable source of pain.

This isn't the problem though. Of course there are things that are unexplainable now. The problem happens when people translate that into a permanent inexplicability.

Kris, please don't think I'm trying to belittle mental illness, I'm not. However, the concept of a higher, more intense, ultimately inexplicable pain, in my opinion, contributes to the very dilemma you are talking about.  It creates a sense of powerlessness. Placing it in a different vocabulary might, just might, allow new insights to unfold that allow us deal with these problems more effectively. Again, I don't mean just deal with it (How does one deal with Ebola?) but many of the dichotomies expressed here, at least for many of the people I've talked to, have been reified or if you want the religious word dogmatized.

We need a new vocabulary.

Brad

PS There are many tangents in this thread. Is there anyone who might start some new threads to follow some of them? I've got a few that I'll start as soon as I have the time.

PPS Don't stop here though. Far be it from me to claim the last word.      


warmhrt
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since 12-18-1999
Posts 1566


34 posted 02-12-2001 07:44 AM       View Profile for warmhrt   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for warmhrt

Brad,

Just a few words...

I totally agree that a new vocabulary concerning depression and mental illness is long overdue. I've been advocating for just that for a long while. The word "mental" illness, for example...mental speaks of the mind. These are physical illnesses, and the mind is not on an anatomical chart. Brain illnesses would be more correst. NAMI uses this term now, but it is not spreading much further. The word "bipolar" was coined to replace the diagnosis of manic-depression; to update it, and to avoid some of the stigma associated with the latter term. It is used mainly in the medical community, however, and by some who have the illness.

As far as the pain associated with these illnesses, the term "psychic" has been used of late by many sufferers and professionals. If we decided on a term here, it would be of little consequence, of course, but perhaps "cerebral" pain would be more descriptive and acceptable.

Gotta run...
Oh, Brad...saw your poem in CA...will get to it later. Congratulations, Daddy!!

Kris  

"It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu
fractal007
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since 06-01-2000
Posts 2032


35 posted 02-12-2001 11:38 AM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Stephanos:

I apologize if my "speech"lol insulted you or anyone else.  I just felt that it was important to show the abuse of authority which often took place earlier on in our modern history, namely throughout most of the second millennium[and probably the first].  

I will try to more deeply study these passages and sections more holistically.  In fact, I just got one of those sleek NIV Study Bibles for Christmas, which has the linking info at the center of the page, so that you can see how much of the basic ideas of scripture are interconnected.  

It is simply my fear that we may return to a modern hi-tech version of that abuse and lust for power among men earlier in history.  I also fear that it may be difficult to make the idea of returning to better family values work.  This is for two reasons:

Misconceptions among the feminist movement, which I am not innocent of, can create a virtual dogma of "woman putting greater priority on family = woman who is oppressed by man."  

The second reason is a greater speed in the workplace.  I recall hearing a statistic in 1994 about the rate at which work is done now as opposed to then.  Basically this statistic said that an average working person 60 years ago accomplished about 10000 hours of work in a lifetime.  Now, with computers, we accomplish roughly about the same amount of work in under a week.

Yes, the feminist movement can be blamed for the latter condition, but was the feminist movement responsible for the idea of putting computers in the workplace?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the men operating in the British Military's secret Station X who first brought them onto the scene, for decoding German military transmissions.

But I thank you, however, for the advice.  I will try to conduct a more indepth study of women in the scriptures.

Brad and WarmHrt:

I just did some digging around at www.dictionary.com.  [too lazy to grab my Oxford Pocket dictionary, lol]  Apparently, if you're meaning what I think your meaning by the workd psychic,[IE as Dictionary.com puts it "Of, relating to, affecting, or influenced by the human mind or psyche"] then the correct term is psychical.  However, the term is still closely linked to ESP and other forms of paranormal phenomena.[Although I'm not always convinced that these phenomena are in any way abnormal, perhaps just not yet fully explored.  Perhaps we should start another thread about that]  

I think then that the best term to use is psychological or psychiatric.

Brad especially:

You say we have an explanation for "psychic" pain.  Yes, we do, but it's a vague one at best.  We have the explanation of the neurology of the brain that a child with a basic knowledge of electricity would have for the way in which a computer is constructed on the inside.  I am not saying that there is a anything more than a physical cause.  Besides, I am not an authority on neurology or psychology, but I do have relatives who know more about it than I do.  If memory serves, WarmHrt has mentioned a few times in this thread, that treatment can often be a guessing game.  But it can also be successful.  Why is this?  Well, based on my limited amount of knowledge, I theorize:

1>  It is because not all psychological problems are related to some neurological screw being loose.  Perhaps they are related more to one's surroundings or the condition of one's spirit.

or

2>  It is because we do not yet have a complete understanding of the neurology of the brain, and therefore we just pump chemicals in there and see what they do.  I know a relative of mine who had this very thing performed on him/her.  It was an ordeal at best.  But sometimes the treatment works because the chemicals have just happened to perform the functions necessary.

Dark Enchantress
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meet Morgana


36 posted 02-12-2001 03:26 PM       View Profile for Dark Enchantress   Email Dark Enchantress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark Enchantress's Home Page   View IP for Dark Enchantress

I confess that I haven't read any of the other replies because I haven't got the time, but I still wanted to post my own thoughts on this.
Well, I am a youth so to speak and, yes, I have been suicidal. I have manic depression and mild schizophrenia. I can't say that it was ever due to the belief that life was meaningless. I'm not religious anymore, instead I put my faith in myself and the world around me; the forces of nature, if you will. It does however alarm me that some young people believe the things that they believe. I'm sure most people are alarmed by this. I think in some perspectives, it makes us open our "eyes" to the world, which is important. For our youth who believe that they can simply kill themselves whenever they feel the need to, my only guess would be that they do it and believe it because it's easy to. We do it all the time in our lives. We make certain choices and have certain beliefs because we think that they are the easiest and the "safest" paths to take. It could also be their thirst to be different and in the very same way, a part of something. Everyone wants to feel unique. Everyone wants to feel like they belong to something. In some form or fashion that's true. They're unique from the views of society and they belong to all the other youths who believe the very same things they do. It's quite a sick outlook if you ask me, which nobody is, but I figured I'd say so anyway.

Live and learn.



By the way, I just wanted to add this after reading the reply right above mine...I have taken medication before, but I don't now. I don't believe in taking the pills and it didn't work for me; however, my mom took the medication and it has lifted her up in her worst moments. It also just generally keeps her in good spirits. I agree with you somewhat on that theory.


I am no one if not myself.

Angel of Darkness






[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (edited 02-12-2001).]
 
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