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Passions in Poetry

God and Jesus....

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WhtDove
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0 posted 08-17-2000 10:00 AM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

are they ONE?  If so, why do you come to that conclusion?

Do you think they are seperate entities?  If so, why?
jbouder
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1 posted 08-17-2000 04:54 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

You know I can't stay away from this question but I'm afraid I am a little short on time for the moment.  I'll try to get to the question tomorrow.  In the meantime (as one of my more annoying professors used to say), what do you think?  

Jim
Erin
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2 posted 08-17-2000 08:15 PM       View Profile for Erin   Email Erin   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Erin

The way that I was taught is that they were 2 different people. And even if they were 1 person why would they give them 2 different names. The way I was taught in school was that God was Jesus's father.

Thats my opinion. I was raised catholic but I grew older not wanting to got to church. I went to a catholic grammer school, and my first year of H.S. then I transferred to a public school and they arent allowed to talk about God. And they taught it as if it were 2 different people. But who knows everybody will have a different answer.


[This message has been edited by ERIN (edited 08-17-2000).]
WhtDove
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3 posted 08-17-2000 10:45 PM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

Erin I'm sure it generally is taught that way. He's always referred to as the "Son of God."

But as for the different names, God has many different names.  One person in general has many names they're known by also.

It's a concept not any understand. I don't think anyone will actually come to completely understand that while here in the flesh anyhow.  

Let's put it this way...For instance I am one, but yet many.  I am a daughter, a mother, a sister, a wife, a friend, but I am the same person.  

In 1John 5:7 it says: For there are three that bare record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (which is Jesus), and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

In John 1:1 it says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

Jesus is the Living Word!
JnR4eva
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4 posted 08-18-2000 02:44 AM       View Profile for JnR4eva   Email JnR4eva   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JnR4eva

wow what a topic...well i have been taught that they are one( i have been in catholic school all my life ecpet college)...but then we have religion books and the Bible that say God is the father of Jesus!!! it's so confusing to the mind.  first off i have to say that this is a very subjective matter..it all depends on what the believer belives in, ..like i would love to try to take this as a logical statement and try to deduce a clear cut answer...BUT U CANT LOL this is religion we are talking about, a faith, not a premise..however i will try to tackle one point..its our language

of language...
now u have said that u are many in one...a mother, sister, aunt...and i am many in one as well     and Jesus was many as well..but lets look into our language and see how we say things...it is without a doubt that we are many....but let us say that you are your own mother....is there a problem with that? of course there is... b/c your mother is *assumed* to be a separate entity independent from you ...u cannot be ur own mother and be urself..being an aunt and godmother all all but titles...and do u see why it is soo complex when we say Jesus was his own father?  it's soo hard to comprehend b/c as humans we do not understand things like that b/c we have used our language to build a structure for that..so that we don't run into contradictions and problems like that... when we say we are our own parents its problematic for our language( but perhaps not for the mind)....i hope this has provided some insight  

it is rather complex but i am unsure...its hard to pick one cause we can be right and wrong.it just depends i guess....i hope this was insightful and made some sense..sorry about grammar but i would hate to re-correct all this lol   have a good day  

(oh yea but i replied to ur reply in the brain madden topic of natural instincts)


"my love is my motivation
my love is my inspiration
perception of this poem
is your interpretation"
-- me
WhtDove
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5 posted 08-18-2000 09:23 AM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

JnR4eva you're right. It is not logical at all for our minds to accept.  It's hard for me to conceive. I don't understand it either.
I've asked many questions on this very subject, and am still not satisfied. Don't think I ever will be until I come face to face with God. I know then I'll have complete understanding.

Just a thought here though; we have a spirit, a soul and a body.  Our spirit, being our thought process. Our soul, being our spiritual body, and of course we have  our flesh body.

Now our spiritual body can be seperated from the flesh body. Now seeing as God is Omnipotent and we are not, He can do things we can't.  For He is everywhere even now.
So if we can believe that, why can't we believe He served different offices at the same time?

I think the one question that most would think are how can He be down here and praying to the "Father," if that is Him too.
Would He be praying to himself?

Jesus being on the right hand of God, the right hand symbolizing power.

It's very complex, too complex I think for the human mind to understand. But we can still have fun discussing it.  
JnR4eva
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6 posted 08-18-2000 01:19 PM       View Profile for JnR4eva   Email JnR4eva   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JnR4eva

I indeed I enjoyed this discussion .  Personally my belief is that they are one..but I really dont have hardcore evidence as to why other than my faith  

"my love is my motivation
my love is my inspiration
perception of this poem
is your interpretation"
-- me
jbouder
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7 posted 08-18-2000 04:39 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Actually, this question has been debated quite actively for nearly two thousand years.  I can interpret your question in several different ways and every one opens new questions … here are two:

1. If the Father is God, and Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, how can God be one?
2. If Jesus is God, how can He also be a man?

I do think it is important to note that there are some real problems with one of the texts mentioned (I John 5:7). The verse is omitted from the oldest and best manuscripts currently available and there is strong evidence suggesting that the verse was an addition by some overzealous post-Nicene Christians.  This is not to say that other texts do not support Trinitarian doctrine, but rather that I John 5:7 is a poor verse on which to build a beachhead.  Without getting into a textual analysis in defense of the tri-unity of God, I offer instead, at this time, an analogy:

Theoretical physicists note that subatomic entities are found to have both wave properties (W), particle properties (P) and quantum properties (h). Even though these characteristics are often incompatible (particles don't diffract, waves do, for example), physicist "explain" or "model" an electron as PWh in order to give the proper weight to all of the relevant data.

Theologians are doing much the same thing with the doctrine of the Trinity. Theologians are not asking you to understand how something can be a singular and plural simultaneously ... they are offering an "explanation" or a "model" that gives proper weight to all of the relevant data (in the case of the Christian theologian, that relevant data being the Old and New Testament Canons).  In other words, God is God … why should we have a problem with the illogical notion that God can be both One Being and a plurality of Persons?

In addition, I believe it is important to buffer any discussion of Jesus’ supposed deity with a reminder that the Christian Scriptures attest just as emphatically to Jesus’ true humanity (the early Church in Alexandria, Egypt fell into this trap and the school of Antioch, Syria fell into the opposite trap).  Anybody sleeping yet?  

More later, if you’re interested.

Jim
Ron
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8 posted 08-18-2000 06:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I have too little time, and even less insight, but I do want to add a few comments.

First, Jim, you build a strong argument, but I think it would be stronger yet if you left quantum effects out of the equation. Quantum mechanics doesn't, in any way I know, contradict particle physics (at least any more than it contradicts common sense). But you are most assuredly right about the dichotomy between waves and particles. The electromagnetic spectrum can exhibit the properties of either, and science can only explain what we experience by allowing it to be both. It's a modern-day paradox with no apparent answers. But it works. It remains to be seen, however, whether our current mathematical explanations are a "model" of reality or simply an incomplete answer.

Nor do I personally think the Trinity is merely a "model" of God. I take the concept very literally and, as you suggested, Jim, have no problem with the seemingly illogical notion that God can be both One Being and a plurality of Beings. That notion is a walk in the park compared to quantum physics or even relativity. And I have to believe there is a single deity, not just because the Old Testament says so, but also because I've too often seen the results of group creation. The Universe is too perfect to have been created by a committee.    

Finally, in my mind, Jesus MUST have been a Man, in every possible sense of the word, else His sacrifice - and the entire New Testament - is virtually meaningless. I see ample evidence in the Bible that many times Jesus faced the same fears and uncertainties as the rest of us. Which only serves to make His life and teachings more profound. Through faith and the aid of His third persona, He surmounted his very human fears and uncertainties. And, to me, the promise is evident . . .

So can we.


jbouder
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9 posted 08-21-2000 09:35 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Ron:

I don't disagree with you and I don't deny the reality of the Trinity ... but I do think the doctrine of the Trinity serves as as a model or a restatement of what is assumed to be true by the writers of the New Testament documents (but never spelled out in the way it was explored at the Nicene Council).  God's triune nature is to be understood literally ... the doctrine of the Trinity is the product of a church council that (correctly, in my estimation) reached their destination through a systematic interpretation of the relevant texts.  But there is always the outside chance that I am wrong.  

And I think we agree on the equal importance to Christian orthodoxy of the recognition of
Jesus' full diety AND full humanity (another seeming paradox that the light particle/wave analogy could justifiably serve).  As much as they seem to be in contradiction, in my opinion, you cannot have one without the other.

Jim
  
Essorant
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10 posted 01-31-2004 02:21 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But humanity does not stop at the human body for that humans have spirits and souls too.  
Jesus may have that, but a wider Godspirit in which his human spirit resides.  Otherwise how may he be the same Jesus of the trinity who was on earth while he is in heaven too?  He must have a humanspirit to be that in heaven.
I just don't think any human, nor any animal, is void of having its own nature and spirit.  If you are born into nature and manhood, you grow a spirit of those too.  And having a human spirit would be spiritual explanation of how, if there is such a  God he may yet be this "human part" of himself in Heaven.
Therefore, It seems the trinity must have a passage for two different spirits, that of a man's to God, and that of the of a God's to Man.  But if that is the case it is a Quaternity.

The Father
The Son
and two Spirits,
in one.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-31-2004 12:49 PM).]

Michelle_loves_Mike
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11 posted 01-31-2004 10:18 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

I'd have to say seperate,,,or, insane,,,,,example,,,,
when John baptised him,,,,,when he came up from the water,,,,,,
1. he was in the water
2. holy spirit came down, as a dove, and landed on his shoulder
3. god said, from above, this is my son, in whom I am proud
So, either they are seperate,,,or he sits in water, and on his own shoulder, while at the same time talking to himself
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

ESP
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12 posted 01-31-2004 11:40 AM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

Lol @ Michelle's comment!!!

"Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake

Ron
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13 posted 01-31-2004 01:29 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So, either they are seperate,,,or he sits in water, and on his own shoulder, while at the same time talking to himself

You're assuming it's necessarily and either-or question.

Is light a particle or a wave? As Jim pointed out over three years ago, light is both. That seems to be a contradiction to us, but our lack of understanding doesn't make it less true.
Essorant
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14 posted 01-31-2004 01:46 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If Jesus was only a body for the "Father", a vessel to convey the "Father" to men, then a body was the extent of the son, and the "son" (flesh-vessel) is only now whatever earthen elements that make up human bodies become after centuries of years.  That is what Jesus may only be if he did not have his own spirit and his own soul; he was merely an instrument, and nothing more.  It becomes more clear to me how it is an excess of men's fondness in the way they wish things to only be. Something that I am not trying say I'm exempt completly from. But I don't think I have read, even in the most imaginitive mythological moments of literature, of any Gods that had to live up to such high expectations as this Man of our very history.  I'm not saying I am on the right path, but I'm more and more turned off by this "all or nothing" idea.  
Men don't wish to believe that Jesus was less or something else than all "father" in flesh, but saying that the son was only the father in flesh seems to makes the son no more than that house God stayed in when he was on earth.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (01-31-2004 02:57 PM).]

Michelle_loves_Mike
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15 posted 01-31-2004 02:11 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Ron,,,the question posted was to my thoughts on either or,,,so I answered such....nothing more, nothing less,,,as always, I'm a firm believer in all having the freedom of beliefs.I just gave mine,,,,take care
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Ringo
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16 posted 01-31-2004 04:00 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

The way I got around explaining this to my son, who had difficulty with the concept of three in one, was this:
The United States Government has THREE parts, yet it is only ONE government. None of the three parts are the same, and they do not hold the same purpose, yet they are indeed part of the ONE government.
The explaination might be a bit simplistic, however my 8 year old son understood it, and it served its purpose.

But now the animal is in pain...
And now it's starting to rain...
But I'm still the same.

Essorant
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17 posted 01-31-2004 06:02 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"The United States Government has THREE parts, yet it is only ONE government. None of the three parts are the same, and they do not hold the same purpose, yet they are indeed part of the ONE government."


But is your President the only presence in your government and the parts and people thereof?
Ringo
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18 posted 01-31-2004 07:54 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Chalk this up to complete idiocy on my part, however, I don't understand the question... please elaborate.

But now the animal is in pain...
And now it's starting to rain...
But I'm still the same.

Essorant
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19 posted 01-31-2004 10:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Isn't the trinity this:

Father (God)
Son/Jesus (God)
Spirit (God)

If the Son, Jesus the Savior, of History, is only God and God's Spirit in flesh, then what is left of him after flesh?  Does the trinity become only two in heaven--Father and Spirit?  How does Jesus exist, if he has no soul and presence of his own that is not the Father's and Holy Spirit?  Was the Son only a body and frame for Father and Holy Spirit?
I may have totally mistaken biblical information.  
Please forgive me if I have.  I am mostly just confused about these things.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-01-2004 02:30 AM).]

Denise
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20 posted 02-01-2004 03:59 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Ess, Christ still does exist in bodily form. He ascended above in His resurrection body, the first to do so.
berengar
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21 posted 02-01-2004 05:59 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Don't worry, it's perfectly normal to be confused by this issue!  To wit, is Jesus man, God or hybrid?  In the first centuries of the Christian Era, the Church was torn between various groupings who asserted one thing or the other, and the Nicene Creed was the result of an attempted formulation that tried to steer a middle course (ie: Jesus has both a divine and a human nature).  Unfortunately, both the monophysites in the east (who denied Jesus' human nature) and the Arians in the west (who denied the divine aspect) did not accept this, and it gave a cheap propaganda value to the Islamic Conquest - "forget all these theological wranglings, there is only one God, He has no sons and Mohammad is his prophet!"  The Holy Texts can be interpreted ambiguously by some scholars - was Jesus always divine, or did He only receive the blessing of His spirit at John's baptism?  For me, however, the Nicene creed was the most inspired road to take.  For at the heart of the Christian story is the beautiful idea of a God who became human in order to rescue humanity.  If Jesus was purely God, we as humans could not identify with Him and the suffering that both humbles and glorifies Him is rendered meaningless.  If He is just a man, however, how could He redeem humanity, as he would share the flaws and weaknesses that encumbers us all?  So, when asked whether God and Jesus are one and the same, one has to say "yes and no", but then be able to explain why.
Essorant
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22 posted 02-01-2004 07:38 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Denise,
I understand it is disputed on some sides he rose only as spirit, and others he rose with his body too.  I respect both:  couldn't he have risen as both?  
Whatever body he is though in Heaven (spiritual; or spiritual and physical) does he have a humanspirit still, so that he is not only God's "Body" and God's Holy Spirit (two parts - duality--instead of three)?
Some people treat the spirit and soul as completly inside the body--I'm not trying to do that. Being God may be both inside being Jesus while being outside at the same time being other things I believe.  
But is there humanspirit at all or is it only God and God's Spirit?


Berenger,

But if God was Human and God, and is Human and God in trinity, why shouldn't he have a Humanspirit and Holyspirit?  
But that is four entities --a quaternity--isn't it?  lol

Thank you for your explanation though.  It will take some time for me to be (feel?) clear about these.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-01-2004 08:25 AM).]

Denise
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23 posted 02-01-2004 10:26 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Don't give yourself a brain hemorrhage trying to figure it out, Ess! Our finite minds can only go so far!
Essorant
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24 posted 02-01-2004 09:22 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I guess it simply must take three divine Dependants of the male sex to match the great independence of one Mother Nature; if He weren't three, She would probably have the best of Divinity for sure.  

    
 
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