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Passions in Poetry

God and Jesus....

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berengar
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25 posted 02-01-2004 10:55 PM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Essorant,
It's already complicated, why make it impossibly so?  Instead of multiplying natures, maybe we should try to apply Occam's razor and seek the most elegant solution (insert smiley).  Yes, we must remember the triune nature of God (including the Holy Spirit, which 'descended on Jesus like a dove' at Jesus' baptism), but one of the benefits of the Holy Spirit - according to Scripture - is that it illuminates rather than hinders understanding.  To say that Jesus rose as spirit and person may be true, but it  misses the point; the fact that the resurrection was physical defines its reality to us, and as humans we can share in the resurrection.
Keep grinning.
Opeth
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26 posted 02-03-2004 07:28 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"In the beginning... and the Word was with God..."

Everytime I read that opening passage, I wonder just where was the Holy Spirit in the beginning? I count two separate entities, not three.

God the Father - Yahweh -
God the Son - Jesus
God the Holy Spirit - No name?

And which part of the Godhead impregnated Mary? The bible states the Holy Spirit did, but Jesus must not know that fact, for He calls God the Father, father on numerous occasions, instead of calling God the Holy Spirit, father. This issue must matter, for if it does not, then Jesus could of sired Himself and called Himself, father... Common Sense 101

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

jbouder
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27 posted 02-03-2004 09:19 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

Once again you demonstrate your ability to ignore the context of a passage you cite.  Who is the subject of John 1?  Furthermore, John identifies the "Word" with Jesus and the portion of John 1:1 you've left out is '... and the Word was God.'"  There is no question that John regarded the "Word" as being equal with God.

Is there a "bi-unity" in the Godhead then instead of a tri-unity?  Have you read John Chapter 7?  Chapter 14?  Chapter 15?  Clearly when the Apostle John intended to address the subject of the Holy Spirit, he does so (and assigns personal attributes to the Holy Spirit, by the way).

Furthermore, if the Person of the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father to be the creative force that caused Mary to conceive, what does that do to you "common sense 101" explanation?

Out of time now, but hopefully later I can offer more.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (02-03-2004 11:27 AM).]

Opeth
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28 posted 02-03-2004 02:28 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Your too funny, Jim.

I am not taking anything out of context. That particular gospel opening deals with the nature of Jesus and God and how they are both one, yet two separate entities. I am questioning, why is not the Holy Spirit mentioned here?  If there was a 3rd person of the "godhead" wouldn't it make sense that the HS would be included? Say... "In the beginning was the Word... and the Word was with both God and the Holy Spirit..."

About the siring of Christ... who sired Christ? If it were the HS, then Christ should call the HS his father. Simple, really.

And what is the HS name? The son is named Jesus. The Father is named Yahweh or Jehovah, but I'd be darned if there was a name for the HS. Yes, I know the HS is referred to as "comforter" etc, so was Jesus called the "messiah," but no name was ever given.

Maybe, just maybe, the Holy Spirit of God is how God (the Father and Christ) gets things done? The HS is an extension, not a separate entity, but an extension of both the Word(Logos, Christ) and Jehovah.. and the rest of the God Family is to come later.

jbouder
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29 posted 02-03-2004 04:03 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

Part of the exercise of interpreting any literature is being aware of what is written before and/or after it.  Context - The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.  Your reply suggests to me that you didn't read the chapters I mentioned and, therefore, failed to place John's opening words into their proper context.  John's purpose in writing the first portion of his Gospel was not to establish the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather to introduce us to the eternal "Word," incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ.  When John is ready to write about the Person of the Holy Spirit, he does so.  If you had read the chapters I mentioned above, you will see that the Apostle John did not neglect to mention the Holy Spirit (in considerable detail) in his Gospel:

quote:
John 15:26ff But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:5 But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.


Why would an impersonal force or extension be called a Counselor?  How could a mere extension "speak" or "declare"?  This passage also indicates that this "Spirit of truth" is distinct from both the Father, from whom the Spirit proceeds, and the Son, by whom the Spirit is sent.  This alone renders your "extension" argument untenable, unless you are suggesting that the Apostle John was mistaken.  But then the burden would be yours to prove John's mistake.

Regarding the names issue, what was "YHWH's" name before he revealed it?  Since the tetranomicon in the Hebrew didn't include vowels, how can we know that God's name, as He revealed it, isn't Yohwoh or Yuhwuh?  What was Jesus's name before He was born?

Given the revealed nature of the Holy Spirit (i.e., His purpose is to "bear witness to [Jesus]" as the verse above suggests), theologians have often described The Holy Spirit as the "shy sovereign."  The Father isn't accessible except by way of the Son, and the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Son, rather than to Himself.  Christology isn't at the center of orthodox Christian theology by some accident, or by the whim of "mainstream Christianity, but by design, as it is borne out quite clearly in the New Testament writings.

Jim
muslimah
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30 posted 02-03-2004 05:42 PM       View Profile for muslimah   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for muslimah

as salaam alaikum,

As I've said in a past post, I'm muslim so my personal view is that Jesus was a prophet, and not the son of God or in any way a part of God.
However, I have never understood the Christian way of thinking...(please do not take offense to these questions, they are purely out of my curiosity)
If Jesus is God's son, does that not mean God has an equal (in order to create Jesus)? Does that not also mean that Jesus is on the same level as God? ...Doesn't this mean that Christians believe in more than one God? How is that monotheism?
If Jesus is not considered an equal to God...than by worshipping him, (CHRISTianity..) do you not worship another than God? Is this not idolatry?
Please explain, I have always thought it an interesting topic...
Also, how do Jews regard Jesus?

Salaam,
muslimah
Essorant
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31 posted 02-03-2004 07:07 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The belief claims an eternal equality among the holy members, yet after the sources of creativity and spirituality are taken up by the Father and the Spirit, that doesn't seem to leave anything much more for the son to be than a living picture frame of the Father and Holy Spirit.  
That is what I have trouble with.

Is that what we are supposed to be too?  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-03-2004 10:20 PM).]

Opeth
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32 posted 02-04-2004 06:54 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

With all due respect, Jim, your reply in no way, shape or form provided any factual or common sensical information regarding the trinity issue as it does not answer the questions that mainstream christianity cannot answer. I am sure that if the godhead of the bible was indeed a trinity, that the HS inspired words of God would be crystal clear as to that fact. You talk about taking things out of context - sorry, Jim, but I did not. Why? Because nothing in the bible establishes a doctrine of the trinity. And I did read what you wanted me to and those passages mean not a thing to establish a trinity - that idea is based on what has been repeatedly taught to you and is quite firmly established in your mind - saying that a "counselor" is to come does not make a godhead. And again, what is this counselor's name? The messiah to come had a name?

To me, it is crystal clear in the opening of John that the nature of God is being discussed. Maybe not to you and to others who hold to doctrines of men so vehemently, but to me it couldn't be simpler.

And once again, who was Jesus' father, the HS or God the Father or himself?
  

jbouder
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33 posted 02-04-2004 10:57 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Opeth:

Isn't the "doctrine" of common sense a doctrine of men?   Seriously, what I hold to "vehemently" are sound principles of interpretation - I'm not suggesting that I always interpret passages correctly, but I think that a careful hermeneutic serves both to minimize the chances of committing an error and to make my argument more convincing than yours.  If you want to label this my holding to "doctrines of men," then I take no offense to it, especially when I don't believe you've demonstrated that your "doctrines" are more likely to be trustworthy.

I think what I've been able to establish thus far is (1) that the New Testament writings regard Jesus as God and (2) that the Holy Spirit has personal attributes that rule out the possibility of Him being an impersonal force, as you tried to argue earlier.  Because of time constraints, I devoted the majority of my reply toward refuting your assertion that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal extension of the Father and the Son.  That said, I think establishing that the Bible does ascribe personal attributes to the Holy Spirit IS an important factual brick in the wall of evidence supporting the full diety of the Holy Spirit.  Until you offer a more convincing rebuttal, I think I did so effectively.

Again, because of time constraints, I cannot give the subject of the Trinity the attention it deserves.

But why don't you start the discussion by answering this question: Who is capable of being blasphemed?

Muslimah:

I want to do a little background reading before answering your post, but I will respond.

Jim
Opeth
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34 posted 02-04-2004 12:03 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Isn't the "doctrine" of common sense a doctrine of men?"

~ Nope. Since Satan is "the author of confusion" and the opposite of confusion is clear understanding/organization and since common sense follows suit to clear understanding... I would say that God would be common sensical and not nonsensical.

Here is the problem with the trinity doctrine (of men).

1. It is similiar to ancient Egyptian religion, and extends into the immortal soul doctrine (or vice versa).

2. No where in the bible can the term trinity be found. You may find that to be not important, but concerning the nature of God, it makes sense that this would be clearly explained.

3. The Holy Spirit does not have a name, as does both the Father and the Son do.

4. Well theologically educated monks found it necessary to add verses to the bible to support the doctrine (an embarassment to mainstream christianity even to this day).

5. In Genesis, it reads "the Spirit of God moved..."  If the nature of God is ever clearly outlined in the bible - here it is. The Spirit of God moved... Not a separate entity, but the Spirit of God - an extension of God = Yahweh.

6. In numerous passages, when Paul is greeting people in the NT, he never mentions the HS as a separate entity, but only God the father and the Son.

7. Who impregnated Mary with Jesus? The Bible states that the HS impregnated Mary, but Jesus calls Yahweh is Father. Therefore, it makes sense and is certainly not confusing to conclude that the Spirit of God which pregnated Mary is that same Spirit of God which moved across the waters in Genesis - not a separate Egyptian-religion-influenced-doctrine, separate trinity entity.

8. So, is it a separate entity HS or Christ whom lives in a Christian's heart? If it is both, it is getting rather crowded in there, don't you think?

~ Certainly the HS was noted as being a "Counselor" etc, but that is because it is a special occasion for God to share His Spirit with His created peoples. He imparts His Spirit, the Spirit of God, to those whome he calls.

Ron
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35 posted 02-04-2004 01:13 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

1. Completely irrelevant.

2. Mostly irrelevant. Try explaining quantum mechanics, which is eminently important, to a three-year-old and then tell me how much sense it makes. You really think you could understand the nature of God?

3. Mostly irrelevant. None of my children had names until a name was needed, because we all knew who "the baby" meant. Wait for the Third Testament.

4. Completely irrelevant.

5. This is your only relevant point, but is still a matter of interpretation. I certainly read the passage quite differently.

6. Completely irrelevant.

7. Mostly irrelevant. I call God the Father, too, but doubt that brings into question my conception.

8. Crowded? Or just full?


Stephanos
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36 posted 02-05-2004 12:46 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

salaam alaikum:

quote:
I have never understood the Christian way of thinking...(please do not take offense to these questions, they are purely out of my curiosity)



I wanted to let you know that I will try to answer some of your questions ... only the full answers to these will take some considerable time (I am also weaving in and out of work and other responsibilities).  As a Christian, I would very much like to have some peaceful dialogue with you, since I am interested in learning more about Islam.


Stephen.
Essorant
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37 posted 02-05-2004 02:06 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"And once again, who was Jesus' father, the HS or God the Father or himself? "

Nothing may contradict what is eternally established, Opeth.  The Father is Jesus' Father, whether or not one of God's three hearts put him into flesh.  
Though I don't see how only one might.
Supposedly God's three hearts have to will selfsame and equally, so that seems to suggest all threedom put son in flesh, that he might be as a living tome of the whole tree, not just one branch.
But are we allowed to believe Jesus has a spirit of his own very self, or is he supposed to be only Father and Holy Spirit's "microcosm"?  
That is where I am troubled.

Stephanos
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38 posted 02-06-2004 10:22 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
But are we allowed to believe Jesus has a spirit of his own very self, or is he supposed to be only Father and Holy Spirit's "microcosm"?  
That is where I am troubled.


Essorant, I think we have to believe that.  Or how else could Jesus pray, "I pray that this cup pass from me.  Yet not my will, but thine be done".  He became a man in the fullest sense of the word, not merely God pretending to be a man.  

This was the human spirit, in love and submission relating to the Divine Spirit.


Stephen.  
Essorant
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39 posted 02-08-2004 12:36 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"He became a man in the fullest sense of the word, not merely God pretending to be a man. "

How was he still the same God then?  
And you suggested he doesn't evolve, if he becomes a man isn't that a change, a difference, in what he is?  
Tais
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40 posted 02-09-2004 09:32 AM       View Profile for Tais   Email Tais   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tais's Home Page   View IP for Tais

I view the Holy Trinity as was said: "God made man similar to Him" (not that wording though, I used my own words in that sentence).
Therefore, we are also three: body, spirit and mind.
Jesus came in the body form ("the words of The Father made flesh")
The Holy Spirit is the spirit.
And God (Our Father) is the mind, the creator.
Observation: 'mind' has several other words to describe what the makes us what we are and makes us do what we do, the 'commander' of the body, and the spirit would be the result of the mind.

Tais
berengar
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41 posted 02-10-2004 08:27 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Zindell (author of the sci fi masterpieces 'Neverness', 'The Broken God' etc) made a good attempt at formulating how a divine being could be incarnated as a human (in a completely different context, of course).  Nevertheless, well done.
LoveBug
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42 posted 02-15-2004 10:09 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this verse..

John 14:8-9 8   Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

There are also four other points I want to make...

1. The reason Christ was sentenced to die is because He made Himself out to be God... so either Jesus was lying or Jesus is God. Jesus rose from the dead, I think thats good proof of what's true...

2. Go through your Bible.. people try to fall and worship prophets and even angels of the Lord.. but these prophets and angels tell them to praise GOD only! But we see that Jesus allows people to worship Him. Again, either He is totally wrong and sinning or He is GOD!

3. We know that only God can forgive sins. They even said that to Jesus. Jesus, in turn, showed His power by healing a lame man. Again, either He was wrong or He is God. Seeing as He healed this man, He was obviously right.

4. Go back to the Old Testiment books of Moses. Over and over again in these books we see: "The Lord is our God.. THE LORD IS ONE!" We know that Jesus told us that He came to fufill the law and not to destroy it... so either He actually did come to destroy the law or Jesus is God...


We are made of many different components. We are spirit and flesh and mind.. if we, being human, can be so complex and still be one being, why is it so hard for us to see Jesus, our God, in that way??

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

 
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