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Passions in Poetry

Who is your Favorite....

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JP
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since 05-25-99
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Loomis, CA


0 posted 06-28-2000 02:41 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

The question is:  Who is your favorite philosopher, or philosophers, and what makes them special to you?

This is not limited to those people whose books you can find in the "philosophy" section at Barnes & Noble.   There are a great many out there who live and breathe their lives as philosophers without knowing it.  Many do not write, many do not teach.... but they have an idea of life and its meanings which are apparent.

I am fond of Nietzsche - while many consider him to be dark, negative, hateful, etc.  I find a kernal of light in his ideas.  He speaks of the Ubermensch, Superman, and the Will to Power, and other ideas, which tell me that he believes in humanities potential.  Our ability to become more than what we are, to evolve into a being worth our existence.  Yes he does refer to mankind as 'the herd' or a scrubby mass of hairy dirty dwarves... but he lays out an ideal of how those who chose to become, can do so...

There are others as well: Plato, for his concept of logic, Bertrand Russell, Robert Nozick, Siddartha, Jesus, and Gene Roddenberry.

Your turn...

  




[This message has been edited by JP (edited 06-28-2000).]
jbouder
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since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


1 posted 06-29-2000 09:02 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I'll play too.

While he is technically not a philosopher, I favor Martin Luther (the Reformer).  His writings on freedom, btw, had a tremendous effect on the direction of Western culture after the Protestant Reformation.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


2 posted 06-29-2000 09:30 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Interesting question.

I'd have to say I'm most influenced by Karl Marx (no surprise there). That doesn't mean I agree with everything he said -- I don't.  In terms of contemporary thinkers, I'd probably say Stanley Fish (a literary critic, not a philosopher).  

When I was younger, I was a big Beaudrillard (simulation, damn it, everything's simulation) fan and I've softened my stance on Derrida (used to be -- he's right, but so?).  Michel Foucault as well is pretty much always interesting.

Thinkers I'm still wrestling with besides the above:

Hegel and Wiggenstein.

And someone called me a name dropper once. The crazy things people call you.      

Brad
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


3 posted 06-29-2000 09:41 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

You are a name dropper!  But I'm not going to let you have all of the fun!

Even though I really don't agree with much of what he wrote, I like Albert Camus (his essays "Resistance, Rebellion and Death" are a favorite of mine).  

As for modern philosophers, I've been a long-time fan of Mortimer Adler and Francis Shaeffer.

I am currently working through some of Aurelius Augustine's works.

(See ... I can drop names too).  

Jim

P.S.  Stop wasting your time with Hegel.  

[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 06-29-2000).]
Tim Gouldthorp
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4 posted 06-30-2000 02:54 AM       View Profile for Tim Gouldthorp   Email Tim Gouldthorp   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim Gouldthorp

Hi all,

JP, Neitchze is also my pick as a philosopher.  I think he is the starting point for may later philosophies (Heidegger, Derrida etc).  Also Spake Zarathustra is pooh-poohed a bit nowdays as lacking the 'hard' philosophy of Neitchze's other works, but the whole work has an incredible style (i suppose i might be called a lover of style at any cost!)- it is written with a kind of rapture I have only seen approximated by Joyce's Portrait of the Artist.  I have found when you look behind Neitchze's polemic hyperbole he is exceedingly insightful.

At the moment I am reading Wittgenstein - the exact opposite in style to Neitchze!  Like Nietchze, i admire his philosophy for its quality of seeming to be created ex nihilo, it takes a completely different approach to the whole philosophical tradition, and is dynamite to the whole traditional way of thinking/seeing.  After reading Wittgenstein a kind on switch flicks over in your brain, you 'see' in a completely new way.

I also agree that Marx is still a very significant philospher.  People say his predictions did not come true, but I think in retrospect his critiques are amazingly accurate.  I'm not a Marxist as I don't believe history is dialectically progressive nor that materiality drives consciousness and culture, but I do think Marxist anaylsis can be extremely useful in many areas.

-Tim
Trevor
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since 08-12-99
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5 posted 06-30-2000 08:16 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

So many to choose from, the more infamous ones I would pick would be, first and foremost Siddhartha, Marx, Plato, perhaps Martin Luther King Jr. for his logical and passive-aggressive confrontation of racism and Ghandi for the same reasons. I wouldn't consider myself very well read in this...or any area but I too have read some Nietzsche and although he does pose some interesting questions and theories (I like a notable portion of his maxims), I just can't seem to get past the feeling that he comes off as a misogynistic, cynical, crotchety old man    

A more "lesser" philosopher I would include in my list would be my father who has theorized that it may only be the consistency in differences that allow individuals to relate things to one another and not real similarities, ie. Green is the way I describe a consistent colour though my green may actually be your red if that is the consistent colour you see when I say green.

Thanks,
Trevor
JP
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Loomis, CA


6 posted 06-30-2000 09:49 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Trevor,  Your green philosophy smacks of Bertrand Russell...

... as for those other name droppers... pish posh on them!  

Did I mention Bunker, or Maude?  Great thinkers they...



Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
JP

"Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


7 posted 06-30-2000 12:05 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Pish posh???    
brian madden
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since 05-06-2000
Posts 4532
ireland


8 posted 06-30-2000 06:32 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

Well I always like to philosophise. I have had more than one drunken conservation
about religion or life. A few years ago I discovered the teachings of Lao Tze Tao. It was at a period of change in my life and I was just beginning to assert myself (teenage years.) but his words backed up so much of what I believed and gave me hope and courage. I have not studied too many philosophers but have read some books which enlightened and inspired such 1984 -George Orwell. The torture garden-Octave Mirbeau and American Psycho-Bret Easton Ellis.
I also read the satan bible by Anton LeVay.
I found his ideas about accepting responsiblity for sins, giving in to your human need to be interesting. In essence his thoughts owe much to "pagan" religion.
On the subject of Jesus I think his teachings are quite beautiful though I think the church has distorted their wisdom. If Jesus said love thy neighbour as thy self then why are there passages in the bible where people suffer at the hands of GOd or where such things as homosexuality are branded a terrible sin. I bring this up as such things has driven me from the church and these words only provide fodder for fanatics.
OK I have studied little philosophy. I guess I have my own philosophy for life. Still I am always open to new ideas.  

"monuments put from pen to paper turns me into a gutless wonder" Manic street preachers

[This message has been edited by brian madden (edited 06-30-2000).]
JP
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since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


9 posted 06-30-2000 10:30 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Hey Brian! Welcome to the discussion!

The Satan Bible eh?  Did I ever tell you I met Satan once?  Pleasant fellow actually, you find yourself liking him even though you know you shouldn't... wait... uh... was that Satan or Bill Clinton... I'm not sure, I get those two mixed up so easily..

Where was I?

Let me clue you in to something about sin, something many bible believing folks tend to forget... Sin is sin, according to the bible, all is alike in the sin department.  Murder, lying, what have you.  It is the same, God sees them that way, Man sees them in degrees.

(flashed back to my preacher days...)



Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
JP

"Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway
Trevor
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since 08-12-99
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10 posted 07-01-2000 03:47 PM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Hello,

JP:

"Trevor,  Your green philosophy smacks of Bertrand Russell..."

Had to look up Bertrand Russell on the old online encyclopedia....god I love that thing!....and I dont' think that it does resemble Bertrand Russell. Russell seemed more involved in the mathematics and how it pertains to logic and reality. But I could be wrong....not a hell of a lot of depth in the online encyclopedia. However I did dig up something that did more resemble that "green" theory.... "The opposing school of thought, NOMINALISM, represented by WILLIAM OF OCCAM, maintains that language and logic correspond to the structure of the mind only, not to that of reality.", which is kind of the opposite of what Russell believed....I think? Like I said I'm not well read so please don't hesitate to correct me.

"Did I mention Bunker, or Maude?  Great thinkers they..."

Don't forget Yogi Bera..   I think what you said in your opening statements regarding those who are philosophers without knowing it says a lot. We all have some philosophy on life and a belief system we often follow. Perhaps a little philosopher lives inside us all.

"Let me clue you in to something about sin, something many bible believing folks tend to forget... Sin is sin, according to the bible, all is alike in the sin department.  Murder, lying, what have you.  It is the same, God sees them that way, Man sees them in degrees."

My opinion is lets throw away all literature on religion and see if God dies....if God does die then I guess it would be safe to say we created God, if not then I guess we can say that God is God regardless of what we think   I dont' think a book will bring us closer or further away from divinity. Just an idea. Sorry JP, just had to blurp all that out, your words just kinda helped inspire that idea

Thanks again for the interesting topic,

Trevor

brian madden
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since 05-06-2000
Posts 4532
ireland


11 posted 07-01-2000 05:34 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

To add to my earlier comments.
Satan hebrew for enemy. I don't believe in hell so I should be safe. Where ever I end up after death will be heaven. LOL

Well JP  all sin is the same? so it would not matter it I went out and killed a few people seeing as I have at one stage lied, cursed and had impure thoughts. I really don't belive that, then I don't believe in a God that cursed his people for their sins. There is a balance, for very action there is an equal and opposte reaction. Karma, if you will. Here is an arguement, one man kills one man steals does God forgive both or does he damn both?  I know the story of the vine yard and both groups of workers getting paid the same amount. In a society where each individual takes responsiblity for his/her actions and is aware of the larger community then such teachings would work, here where everyone is a sinner it is not so black and white. AW I have got myself involved in another religious debate. another broken resolution. LOL

"Frankenstein took some flesh and bones and blood and made a man out of them; the man ran away and fell to raping and robbing and murdering everywhere, and Frankenstein was horrified and in despair, and said, "I made him, without asking his consent, and it makes me responsible for every crime he commits. I am the criminal, he is innocent." ... [That's exactly] the case of God and man... God made man, without man's consent, and made his nature, too; made it vicious instead of angelic, and then said, "Be angelic, or I will ill punish you and destroy you." But no matter, God is responsible for everything man does, all the same; He can't get around that fact. There is only one Criminal, and it is not man".
Mark Twain


A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Tim Gouldthorp
Member
since 01-03-2000
Posts 175


12 posted 07-02-2000 02:37 AM       View Profile for Tim Gouldthorp   Email Tim Gouldthorp   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim Gouldthorp


Brian,
as you say, 'man' did not ask to be created, 'he' did not ask to be responsible for 'his' actions.  But nevertheless, 'he' does exist and 'he' is responsible for all he does (and more).  Being proceeds essence. Whether God or 'natural forces' created us, we nevertheless exist, and must project a self of our own making from the nothingness of being.  This is the terrible responsibility, the weight of the world Sartre describes in Being and Nothingness.  We are CONDEMNED to be free.

The 'green theory' does seem to me also to have corrolations with Russells philosophy and the 'early' Wittgenstein in Logico-Tractus-Philosophicus

-Tim
JP
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since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


13 posted 07-04-2000 07:00 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Brian,

In the eyes of God, according to the bible, all sin is sin.  Mankind has determined the degrees and severity of sin - not the Judeo-Christian God - it is important to make that distinction for philisophical discussions.

more later... fireworks time.



Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
JP

"Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway
Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


14 posted 07-22-2000 03:29 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Going back to the original question:

Kahlil Gibran
quote:

On Self-Knowledge

And a man said, "Speak to us of Self- Knowledge."

And he answered, saying:

Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.

But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.

You would know in words that which you have always know in thought.

You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

And it is well you should.

The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;

And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.

But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;

And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.

For self is a sea boundless and measureless.

Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."

Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."

For the soul walks upon all paths.

The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.

The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.


Thanks.

Sunny

~~~Keep your face to the sunshine and you cannot see the shadow.
Helen Keller ~~~

When you want to be loved, look within...KRJ

 
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