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Passions in Poetry

what is wrong with suicide

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rene
Member
since 04-24-2000
Posts 114


0 posted 06-01-2000 01:33 PM       View Profile for rene   Email rene   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rene

what is wrong with people deciding they just don't want to play the game any more?
presuming they have no dependants like children etc. and forgeting religious views such as the body is sacred etc. (because not every one has those views or views that are the same)
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


1 posted 06-01-2000 06:09 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

well, i think there are several things 'wrong' with it. i'll list a few of them.

1- it's not fair to friends and relatives who will weep & mourn for days, weeks, maybe years and who may not be able to cope and get over it for a long, long time

2- someone will have to dispose of belongings belonging to the person who committed suicide and this isn't fair to them, either ... plus, there may be diary entries or mail the suicide committer might not want anybody to see ... hehe  

3- it could be messy and someone would have to clean up afterwards which also isn't fair

4- forget the body, but there's a reason for a person's spirit to be here and gifts the person has been given which should be used to their fullest extent and committing suicide cuts short the time available for changes to take place where a person may finally realize what he or she is supposed to do here on this big planet and never realize his or her potential which could have given he or she great rewards and joy and other people may have been effected and all that, in a positive way, so... it's not fair to do that to the world becuase people may be waiting for his or her 'gift' to the world which could be anything from a great cooking recipe to feeding the hungry

5- it may appear that this person is 'losing the game' at the moment because there are many overwhelming things that can happen to a person but... the 'game' is intricate in design and tomorrow circumstances will change and so will attitudes and therefore committing suicide 'today' will end all the endless possibilities of all the GREAT and BEAUTIFUL things that could happen tomorrow... so ... it's not FAIR to the person who makes the decision to commit suicide because he or she will lose out on a great deal in the long run.

6- someone might come up with a new microchip which will alleviate computers crashing and solve all the problems of transferring data where it could be intercepted and someone may come up with a cure for cancer and someone else may figure out how to transcend transportation problems and zap each and every one of our cells to a new destination and you could be on one side of the world one minute and then on the other side of the world the next without having to get on a boat or a plane or deal with lines and traffic congestion at the airport... and would anybody really want to miss that?

7- also, someone may come up with some kind of 'youth' potion or 'fountain of youth' and people may enjoy health, energy and sex with really great partners for many many years and... who would want to miss THAT?

8- and one day the person who decides to commit suicide may realize (but it will be too late) that THEY themselves were the one that was destined to stop world hunger or war or find a great cure for acne or write the most important novel ever written which would be read in English classes throughout all the major Universities in the world, or paint a painting that would have been revered or discovered a new atomic particle which would be the key to healing every disease humankind has ever known or... find out that they missed out on meeting a very very cool dude who would love them for themselves and who wouldn't judge them for anything or make them feel lacking in any way but.... he or she would have missed out and so... committing suicide would be a very very bad idea, all things considered

9- and finally... well there is no finally to this answer of mine... unless the person commits suicide and then there is a very big finally because it's all over and all the wonderful endless possibilities of life are dismissed in a wink ....

10- oh... an afterthought... about afterlife... because, unlike after dinner mints, i truly think an afterlife can alleviate bad breath and other disorders which plague humankind and the option to commit suicide would probably dismiss the possibility of an afterlife and what if... just what if... all of this is true and there really IS a GOD who loves every person so very much that each person is created as the spitting image of HIM and destined to enjoy the incredible attributes of some kind of glorious redemption and rewards??? what then??? well, then, the person who chose suicide would miss out and that just wouldn't be FAIR

so... that's my answer, and i'm sticking to it.

and for anybody out there, including you, rene... who is considering such a drastic action, i would plead with you to read over my ramblings here and then very quickly go seek professional help

because i am not a counselor... i only know that life sucks sometimes but it gets better... and sticking it out to find out all the GREAT things that can happen would be the FAIREST thing anybody could do for themselves and for the ones they love.

god bless....
i hope this helped even a little bit

please feel free to email me any time

love comes in bits and pieces. eventually the puzzle pieces fit together...

-doreen
rene
Member
since 04-24-2000
Posts 114


2 posted 06-01-2000 07:52 PM       View Profile for rene   Email rene   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rene

okay, what about this,

1, if someone told me about this huge amount of pain, or just boredom they were suffering and were addamant that the best thing to do would be to step out, then i would be, if i loved this person, willing to go through my own personal suffering for the loss of them so that they would be free from pain.

2 well, thats not strictly true, in most cases yes but that stands as no argument if the person who was committing suicide had taken care before hand.

3 again, not strictly true, say for instance someone threw themself into the ocean or a furnace (see Gattacca!) then there woud be no clean up

4 talking about the purpose of spirit and intrinsic gifts is okay but it is only an opinion and im sure a suicidal person would not share it.

5 Quite true, tomorrow could be the start of a brilliant life, but it could also just get worse and worse.

6,7,8,9. well if i went to a casino and bet all the money i had on red on the roulette and lost i don't think i could convince anyone that the chance of lots of money was worth the risk of no money. also great things may happen but they may not so...

10,yes but if there is no god, what then?

i am not suicidal, r even slightly depressed, i am far too arrogant for that. but in a piece of writing i was doing suicide was involved and i thought, well whty not?
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


3 posted 06-01-2000 08:20 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

you said....

"1, if someone told me about this huge amount of pain, or just boredom they were suffering and were addamant that the best thing to do would be to step out, then i would be, if i loved this person, willing to go through my own personal suffering for the loss of them so that they would be free from pain."

i say....* my answer... you are just one person... each person has several hundred maybe thousands of people who know them/relate to them... plus.... you don't know the pain or mourning you would suffer, in advance... it's not worth finding out how strong you think you are*


you said....
"2 well, thats not strictly true, in most cases yes but that stands as no argument if the person who was committing suicide had taken care before hand."

I say *true. people can "tie up loose ends" before they pull their own plug. thing is, why take chances? LOL*


you said, "3 again, not strictly true, say for instance someone threw themself into the ocean or a furnace (see Gattacca!) then there woud be no clean up"

and I say, *death takes clean up no matter what the method*

you said, "4 talking about the purpose of spirit and intrinsic gifts is okay but it is only an opinion and im sure a suicidal person would not share it."

and i say, *suicidal people aren't thinking correctly... thus my previous discourse*

you said, "5 Quite true, tomorrow could be the start of a brilliant life, but it could also just get worse and worse."

to which, I say *every silver lining has a cloud*

you said, "6,7,8,9. well if i went to a casino and bet all the money i had on red on the roulette and lost i don't think i could convince anyone that the chance of lots of money was worth the risk of no money. also great things may happen but they may not so..."

and I answer, *life is not a gamble unless you don't feed the horse or exercise him*


you said, "10,yes but if there is no god, what then?"

to which, I answer, *if i were anybody, i wouldn't wanna take that chance*

you said, "i am not suicidal, r even slightly depressed, i am far too arrogant for that. but in a piece of writing i was doing suicide was involved and i thought, well whty not?"

to which I say, *indeed... why not? why not live? it's better than the alternative... and glad to hear this had nothing to do with your own state of mind... i'd be interested in reading whatever piece of creative writing you compose about this subject.... why not, indeed? why not explore all the endless possibilities! Ain't life fun?*

thanks, rene, for this very interesting question... hope i quashed the dilemma at least once... LOL

-doreen

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


4 posted 06-01-2000 09:10 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"You can never lose, you can only give up"
--ex-girlfriend

Legally, I find it hard to argue a case against suicide.  Hey, I'm not a lawyer.

Socially,
I think Doreen is right on the money.  It is selfish because the act creates sadness, burdens in others. If these 'others' allow suicide (because they don't want to be seen as selfish -- which I don't have a problem with by the way), this allowance can be perceived as encouraging. There is a fine line between accepting another's actions and approving, or being seen as approving, of those actions.  Whether we like it or not, our actions and attitudes influence and change others. You can try to alleviate your responsibility to others but it is always, already there.

Spiritually,
Well, you're going to find out anyway. Why not wait until it happens naturally or accidentally.

Individually,
Often enough, the question is not whether things get worse or that they get better, it is how you perceive them. This is an individual question that involves action to change oneself, not eliminate oneself. If someone is clinically depressed, then this is beyond his or her control and should see medical attention before any decision like this can be made.  Work on changing your mind.

Statistically (some of which I've learned from people here):

Suicide rates go up as countries industrialize.

Suicide rates go down in times of war.

Suicide rates go up in times of economic recession or depression.

Why is this?

I think that when one's own survival (or of one's family, coummunity, or society) is on the line, suicide is no longer an issue. When one's status, one's 'way of life' in that perceived society is threatened, suicide is contemplated. Suicide is contemplated when one believes that one's status, one's expectation of how the world looks at he or she is 'out of joint'.  This is a perception issue.

Of course, there may be cases where such an action is warranted (thus, my legal problems) -- continual physical pain or whatever but I'd rather see these as special cases, practical exceptions to the general rule that suicide is not an appropriate action to take.

Brad
MagnoliaBlue
Member
since 05-12-2000
Posts 387


5 posted 06-01-2000 11:35 PM       View Profile for MagnoliaBlue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MagnoliaBlue

I think if someone wants to think about suicide, that is their choice...But what choice do the family and friends have?

Death is permanent.Suicide is one mistake that you can never apologize for or take back.

What might you become one day? Or your children or grand children?

MagnoliaBlue


 
Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-15-99
Posts 7276
Mobile, AL


6 posted 06-02-2000 05:14 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What is wrong with suicide, is that it is a sin. Our lives are not games. They are gifts from God himself, and are not to be toyed with as we see fit.  Suicide is selfish, and selfisness is not a teaching that God has told us to follow.  If there are no dependents then maybe those people are meant for other things that cannot possibly require one to have children or even spouses.  For my life I have a new thought...
Everything for a reason...That reason being God and his plan.


 Nothing can deter a poet, for he is actuated by pure love. Who can predict his comings and goings? "Thoreau"


Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-15-99
Posts 7276
Mobile, AL


7 posted 06-02-2000 05:18 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

PS..
I know you said "forgetting religious views", but that is almost impossible.  What it sounds like you wanted to say was that anyone having any religious views should not respond with them because not everyone has them. I hope I'm making sense, and I hope you don't think I'm attacking you on this.  Religious point of view cannot be kept out of this, because God is the only reason for our existence.


 Nothing can deter a poet, for he is actuated by pure love. Who can predict his comings and goings? "Thoreau"


rene
Member
since 04-24-2000
Posts 114


8 posted 06-02-2000 08:13 PM       View Profile for rene   Email rene   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rene

glad i am that you all took the time to respond to what i find an interesting question, thankyou. however, in all of your arguments against suicide i would ask you to show one that is not an opinion, religious belief or situational argument. i just can't see any. if someone i knew or even me myself were considering suicide apart from guilt triping them and saying that  other people who were not going through what they were wanted them to continue, i'm not sure i could provide a disuasive reason.

dp, thanks for your concern about my mental health but i'm sure it's much more likley that some grissly disaster will sweep me away rather than my own hand. but i have to say i was disapointed by you saying suicidal people are not thinking properly. you have to admith that this is a gross genralization.  think it is typical of our society to lable such people as irrational etc, when often the fact is that we have all screwed up this world and our own societies so bad that suicide may well be a better idea than to continue.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


9 posted 06-02-2000 08:32 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

in 1996 when my father was dying of ALS (lou gehrig's disease) and a prisoner in his own paralyzed body... we (the entire family) actually discussed the option... for a short time... he was absolutely in his right mind and so were we... he decided to deal with the disease and we took care of him until he died... a noble, difficult and overwhelmingly painful experience, but... we were all so proud of him... and he was so proud of himself, i'm sure... at the end, he couldn't speak so he couldn't say but i know he knew he made the 'right' decision not to 'escape' from what he knew was coming... (during the exact same time he was dying, ted koppel of nightline was interviewing morrie schwartz, who was dying of the same disease... you may remember it ... later, the book 'tuesdays with morrie' and the movie came out)

so anyway, in THAT particular circumstance there was a rational, intelligent human being weighing the possibility of 'bowing out gracefully' by ending his life before he had to suffer longer... and he was thinking right... no question

but, in most other circumstances where people consider suicide, i truly believe they are under a great deal of stress and not thinking rationally about the fact that things WILL get better (for him, things were not going to get 'better'... he was going to die a slow death trapped inside a paralyzed body and sufficate... and being a nuclear physicist and one of the most intelligent persons EVER, he thought about the rational possibility of avoiding all that)... but not with most... MOST people who consider suicide are not in his situation...

AND... there are MANY more solutions to the sometimes horrible pain and agony of life than suicide...professional counselors are available who can be not only mentors but friends... medication is available to help 'pull' the person out of the depths of depression and pain....support groups are available... love is out there and people genuinely CARE about other people.... life CAN be a glorious experience and sticking it out to come THROUGH the painful times can have some glorious rewards... pain subsides and joy comes... as Thomas Aquinas said, "There can be no joy without pain"

but then again, maybe you're right, rene

all of this MAY be just my opinion not based on any fact. the only way to actually know is to talk to people who were suicidal and who are now enjoying a fulfilling life and find out if they are happy they stuck it out.... I'm sure there are websites available with people's testimonials to this and support groups all over the world where people will attest to the fact that they were very very glad they handled and rode out the pain and did NOT choose suicide... i would say that this would make my opinion not just an opinion, but fact

as for me? well, i'll keep what you say in mind because right now life SUCKS for me and maybe i'd be better off just calling it quits.



[This message has been edited by doreen peri (edited 06-02-2000).]
7
Member
since 04-26-2000
Posts 118
Amherst, MA, USA


10 posted 06-03-2000 07:30 PM       View Profile for 7   Email 7   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 7

Philosophically, to me, there's nothing at all "wrong" with it. Wrong as in morality. The way I see it, if you don't want to be somewhere, it essentially wouldn't hurt anyone, and I believe that something is only "wrong" if it hurts someone.

Protagoras said that "Man is the measure of all things," meaning that we create all morality. This sounds like a very arrogant philosophy, but it's not if you take into account that you should respect other people's feelings. I think that there is no "judgement day," no karma or reward or punishment for how we live our lives. But that doesn't mean we should just go around doing whatever we want. Because, considering our culture, it would cause quite a bit of pain to others to just disappear and leave them wondering what they did wrong or what is happening to you now.

I don't like to use the words right and wrong, because that assumes that there is someone out there regulating our morality, and I think it comes from within. And if it comes from within, then if you feel that it is right for you to kill yourself, then that is not wrong. But it is hurtful, and if you care about the people around you, I don't think it would be right from within either.

7

P.S. I'm thinking pretty clearly considering I'm on Codine, huh?   I had elbow surgery yesterday, and the world suddenly seems a lot prettier. But the thing about this stuff is that if you want to act normal you can, but it's so fun to say the stupid things that come to your mind.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


11 posted 06-03-2000 09:38 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

ok. i think you're both talking me into it. nothing wrong with it, right?

actually, might just be a good solution for me at the moment

thanks.
StarrGazer
Senior Member
since 03-05-2000
Posts 696
Texas


12 posted 06-04-2000 03:25 PM       View Profile for StarrGazer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for StarrGazer

Ok just my  thoughts on suicide... Haveing been there  and tried it, it's a permanent  solution to a temporary problem. I can understand why people sometimes feel the need to end it, but I can also argue all the reasons one should not.  Suicide and depression seem to go hand in hand  I'm always thinking of ways to end things but then there are so many reasons not to and one of them always  seems to occur to me at the right moment. In the end it all boils down to a personal choice there is no right or wrong but if someone is seriously contemplating suicide they should talk to a  doctor or even a good friend and  tell them how they feel and get help.
rene
Member
since 04-24-2000
Posts 114


13 posted 06-04-2000 07:42 PM       View Profile for rene   Email rene   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rene

dp, i hope you dont kill yourself. i mean to me you are just letters on a screen so to me it wouldn't make any difference really. however you don't fit into my idea of suicide not bieng wrong. firstly i know you have emotional dependants, from reading your poems i can tell that people here know you and care for you. so if you do kill yourself, it will be wrong, in my opinion. this is clearly an opinion you hold as explained in your previous messages so for you to kill yourself now would be foolish and actually quite weak. that is not just a personal opinion of mine but it is what i have gathered through the information you put forward of your beliefs. also don't let yourself be talked into things, if you have read what has been posted and considered it in view of your own situation and decided you fit into the argument that says suicide is ok then well, fine, your choice and i would support you. but i am nearly totally sure that is not what has happened so think a bit more if you had already decided. i would say, that considering suicide in a, well i guess half hearted way, was a good thing to do because it reminds us of how easily we can be plucked from existence. anyway, do your own thing, may or may not hear from you soon,
rene
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


14 posted 06-04-2000 08:56 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

ok rene.
i'll think about it.

The thing is, when you put such strong words out to tell people that it is 'OK' to commit suicide, then, what do you expect? Someone may actually take you seriously.

Think about that.

And thanks so very much for your comment,

" i mean to me you are just letters on a screen so to me it wouldn't make any difference really. "


and

"anyway, do your own thing, may or may not hear from you soon"

You don't even know me. what if i were a drug addicted teenager who has problems in school and at home and low self esteem and was sitting here reading all this with a bottle of pills sitting next to me? What if i'm just ME and i happen to be a human being and in a distraught state of mind actually considering suicide and you tell me it's an ok thing to do and then come back to tell me i'm just a name on a screen and it doesn't really matter anyway?

Do you care?

Nope.

I don't think so.

So, bottom line is, if you don't care about PEOPLE don't write words which indicate that you couldn't care less about whether they live or die.... if you really don't care, you are in no position to tell people they shouldn't care about their own lives, y'know?

Some people might take you seriously.

And believe it or not... this is a public forum and many people of many different age groups in many different life circumstances read this and...

you have a responsibility to not post arguments glorifying suicide.

Right now, your comments which i just quoted have really made me angry and i'm upset, too, that anybody would think that it was OK to NOT care about a fellow human being.

As for me... well, who the hell cares?

If i didn't believe in free speech and lack of censorship, i would request this topic be deleted from these forums.

But since i do, i will just say that i hope people think twice next time about posting strong arguments which could negatively effect someone in a weak state of mind...

a mental state which i hope you don't have to visit one day. (because, even though i think your postings here were VERY irresponsible and even though YOU are just a name on a screen... i realize that BEHIND THAT NAME ON THE SCREEN IS A HUMAN BEING WHO DESERVES RESPECT, LOVE, COMPASSION AND DIGNITY...!)

I truly hope that you don't find yourself in a state of mind to consider suicide where the feedback you get from other human beings is... "It doesn't really matter. Go ahead. I'll support you in it. It's your choice. Who cares anyway? I don't even know you."

We all have a moral obligation for not negatively influencing each other... of course this is my opinion... but then again, i am just a name on a screen and it wouldn't matter to you one way or another.

-doreen
(a real person who actually breathes, thinks, and feels and who is NOT just a name on a screen, whether you give a s*h*i*t or not)

StarrGazer
Senior Member
since 03-05-2000
Posts 696
Texas


15 posted 06-04-2000 09:25 PM       View Profile for StarrGazer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for StarrGazer

Doreen,
     I hope you were not serious in your statement, as I've said I've been in that  position and I know it is not a fun place to be... and I have to agree that  it seems that Rene's remarks say in a way it's okay do it you don't matter anyway which is not a  stance I'd care to support... It's not okay think about the impact your actions will have upon others who know you!!! It's true you may just be a name or a number to me BUT there are others close to you that will be affected by your actions
I hope that no one was negatively influenced by these threads I don't think that in any way they were a statment saying that it is okay to commit suicide and I pray that if any one is contemplating such an action they seek help
If anyone needs to talk about these feelings they can email me shancrider@icqmail.com as I may not have the answers but I'm there to listen ...
7
Member
since 04-26-2000
Posts 118
Amherst, MA, USA


16 posted 06-04-2000 09:50 PM       View Profile for 7   Email 7   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 7

I think... maybe I shouldn't have spoken so coldly and philisophically without noticing that there are actually people here taking these posts as advice. As this is the Philosophy forum I took it as a purely hypothetical arguement... but if you are thinking about suicide, please note my later comments on how it would affect the people around you. Whether it's "wrong" or not, with all morality subtracted... at least think for a while, about who you will hurt.

It's not weakness. It's a solution in your mind, and who is to tell you it is a bad one? But knowing how our society reacts to this particular solution... at least give that a good consideration, and decide if you care enough about your loved ones to save them the pain.

Best wishes,
7
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


17 posted 06-04-2000 10:05 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Starrgazer, your response was compassionate and caring... what i would expect of another human being... and i do thank you for that

the point is....

when people publically argue that suicide is OK, not knowing their audience and the state of mind of their audience, then isn't that perhaps a bit irresponsible?

you, starrgazer, have made a point here that i made in my original statements in this thread... if for no other reason... it is NOT OK because of  how it will effect others

You just said in your last post, "I hope that no one was negatively influenced by these threads I don't think that in any way they were a statment saying that it is okay to commit suicide and I pray that if any one is contemplating such an action they seek help"

WELL, I HOPE SO TOO!!!!!!!

I hope the same and I applaud you on welcoming people to email you and thank you for what appears to be sincere concerns for people in general and for me and my welfare.

I'm ok. honestly. I am not suicidal.

But who knows? maybe the next person who reads this thread may be influenced into thinking that it IS OK.... and that's NOT OK!!!!!

People walk a tightrope when discussing these issues, especially when they present arguments in a public forum that make suicide a valid solution. Suicide is not a valid solution for anybody. Ever.

And people should be accountable for what they proclaim.

If this thread DOES influence just one human being on this planet to believe that suicide is OK... then shame on all those who made those kind of statements.

Who knows who's reading this?

Thank you again for your concern, Starrgazer, and again... I am fine and not considering suicide.

I am still upset and angry about Rene's comments which clearly dismiss me as a person... and therefore clearly dismiss every other person who may be reading this... and possibly could be persuasive to some people to go ahead with such a dire, destructive, and tragic act.

I for one, wouldn't want to have their blood on my hands.

Please people... THINK... before you type what's on your mind! You can call me opinionated or call me whatever you want...but I feel that ALL PEOPLE HAVE AN ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EACH OTHER and it just isn't RIGHT (yes, i do believe there IS a 'right' and a 'wrong') to tell people it's ok to commit suicide.

It's called "social responsibility". What happened to that????????

and again... to repeat myself... rene's statements to me that didn't matter to her anyway because i was just a name on the screen were totally irresponsible.

-dp
7
Member
since 04-26-2000
Posts 118
Amherst, MA, USA


18 posted 06-04-2000 11:25 PM       View Profile for 7   Email 7   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 7

I do not wish to get involved in a flame-throwing battle, but I would just like to remind everyone that the question simply asks people's opinions, and it is only fair to allow people to state those opinions when asked. And if that opinion happens to be that suicide is OK, that opinion should be respected as much as anyone else's. However, I haven't read any posts here that seem to encourage suicide. There are a few people who say it is a personal choice, but while it is a social responsibility to help each other, it is also a responsibility to yourself to take other people's opinions with a grain of salt. I most certainly take responsibility for what I have said, but there is a certain amount of responsibility that should be taken by the reader as well.

And if anyone reading these posts is contemplating suicide, I hope you seek professional help instead of seeking answers from a bunch of babbling poets on the Internet... I think we all care about each other here but there is some help we just can't give through... well... words on a screen. It will save you and your loved ones from a lot of pain if you make the decision to help yourself.

Truthfully thine,
7
Elizabeth
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19 posted 06-05-2000 09:49 AM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

Um...I think the idea here is that when people argue for or against suicide, they are thinking of what THEY would do. I know, because that has been my stand--that it's ok for "someone" to kill themsleves because "someone" is tired of everything, all the while putting myself in the place of that "someone". If someone I cared about was suicidal, I would be one hundred percent against it and arguing accordingly. I would not dream of saying, "Sure, go ahead. It's your choice, and who am I to block your path?" And this is all from my personal experience. I guess people promote and glorify suicide because it is what they want for themselves, and they don't want to be told what they can and can't do in their own situation.

The bottom line is that suicide is wrong. Even if you have the idea that no one cares and you have nothing--well, no one has no one. There is always someone or something that will be affected by your going.

Elizabeth


 And this I say to you: why? Why? Just tell me why, so I can understand. Why?


serenity blaze
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20 posted 06-05-2000 10:44 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I have lost seven people in my life---three of which were brother and sisters from the same family...doreen, I'm with you in your anger here.  Witness first hand the devastation of a family and you will know that there is no such thing as taking your own life.  They took their loved ones with them...It was spiritual MURDER.  It will soon be the anniversary of my cousin's death--she took her own life on Father's Day, and now her father has been drunk for 15 years.

Pain?  Perhaps theirs did go away...but the pain they left behind will never be undone...

AND THAT CANNOT BE PHILOSOPHIZED AWAY.

[This message has been edited by serenity (edited 06-05-2000).]
Elizabeth
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21 posted 06-05-2000 11:12 AM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

And also, if someone holds the opinion that suicide is OK, and we all just sit there and respect that, 'cause hey it's their opinion, that is just passively okaying something we know is wrong. If someone came in here and posted the "opinion" that it is perfectly acceptable to bring a gun into a school or a fast-food restaurant or whatever and open fire, I think we would all pretty much agree that it was wrong and we would all state so. Why is suicide any different? Because someone is killing themselves as opposed to taking the life of another person? It used to be the case, and maybe it still is, that someone who attempted suicide and failed was put in jail, because it was murder. While I agree that people should be able to hold their own opinions, I think this goes beyond just a personal opinion. This is a matter of right and wrong, and if we play ideas like this down...

WE ARE SAYING IT IS OKAY TO COMMIT SUICIDE. This can even be stretched to the point of encouraging someone to kill themselves, because we are telling them it does not matter either way.


But it does matter. If one of the members here killed themselves, we would ALL be affected, whether we realize it or not. That person would not be around anymore, to post and read and participate, and that in itself is an effect.

Our words (believe it or not!) have an impact on those who listen. It's said that the pen is mightier than the sword, and it very well can be, especially in cases like right and wrong as this one is.

Elizabeth


And by the way--all that I have stated is coming from someone who has contemplated suicide, so I know firsthand. If I were in that condition while I was reading this, what kind of impact would it have on me? Think about it.

 And this I say to you: why? Why? Just tell me why, so I can understand. Why?




[This message has been edited by Elizabeth (edited 06-05-2000).]
doreen peri
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22 posted 06-05-2000 12:32 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

7-
This isn't a flame throwing battle. It's more important than just people parlaying their opinions. Yes, the reader has responsibility, sure. But, especially BECAUSE of the subject matter, there may be readers who are particularly interested in the question because they are in a situation where they themselves are thinking of this very question in regards to their own lives... and who may not be able properly discern their own responsibility to weigh the points of the argument because of their depressed and confused state of mind.

Elizabeth and Serenity.... thank you both so much for finding this thread and responding. I couldn't have said it better... you both have stepped up to the mic and asserted your responsibility to speak on this subject and to take a stand. Words are very very powerful, indeed. Comments on this subject matter should be carefully thought out prior to being penned. People today all too easily say there is no black & white, there is no 'right' or 'wrong'... all there is.... is opinion, they say. To me, that's very sad. Again, thank you both for speaking out. For a while there, I was feeling totally dismissed... not only for my comments, but as an actual breathing, thinking, caring human sitting here typing. Again, thank you both.

Serenity, I was very sorry to read of your losses to suicide and how devestating it has been to the family. Your statement about 'how this cannot be philosophized away' was right on the money. God bless.
7
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23 posted 06-05-2000 01:31 PM       View Profile for 7   Email 7   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 7

This has turned into such an emotional discussion that I don't think it belongs in the Philosophy forum. Does anyone agree? All I know is that I come here, to this specific forum, to find *philisophical* questions and state my opinion in a rational way. I am truly offended that there are people who don't think that's OK.

Everything we believe is a product of our culture. We believe suicide is bad because that is how we have been brought up. But in some cultures it is different, and life is looked at differently... and I don't think anyone is trying to push their beliefs on anyone, except for those who say, quite closed-mindedly, "this is wrong and this is right and anyone who says differently shouldn't be allowed to speak." It is hard for people to talk about this sort of thing philisophically when it is such an emotional topic, so if there are people here who want to look at it as anything other than a rational, hypothetical argument, I suggest they take it elsewhere. I don't have the authority to command that, but it would certainly make me a lot more comfortable.

To the people who have contemplated suicide, I am glad you are still here to talk about it. And I urge you to try to find help if you consider it again. As so many of us have, I have been through it, and I'm happy that I gained control of my life again. I don't think you have to worry about any of these posts triggering a self-destructive act, because it is made very clear by almost all of us that we do not think it's OK. If someone asks a question however... all sorts of responses should be expected.

With a grain of salt,
7
Elizabeth
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24 posted 06-05-2000 02:03 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

7-you say that the reason we believe suicide is wrong is because we have been brought up that way by our culture. I beg to differ. The reason I think suicide is wrong is based on the simple fact that it is wrong. There are plenty of things that society and culture say that I do NOT agree with. If we are not taught morality, how would we survive? If there is no right and wrong, then people would be free to do as they choose with no consequences whatsoever. Take all the murders and other crimes that go on today. Is it okay for murderers to up and decide to kill someone? Should they be allowed to walk the streets doing as they please? I think not. And it is not just because "society says so" that I believe that. It's based on the simple fact that when someone makes a choice, they have the responsibility to take on whatever consequences come with that choice.

After you stated that everything we believe is nothing more than a product of the culture we live in-therefore implying that there is no real "right" or "wrong" because everything we believe was spoon-fed to us and we did not choose to think that way for ourselves-you go on to state that those of us who consider suicide should seek help. Why do you say that, if the belief that suicide is wrong is just someone's opinion? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth there. Either you think something is wrong and shouldn't be done, or you think that it doesn't matter and it's a matter of personal choice.

If there is no right or wrong, there are no guidelines for human beings. Some things are acceptable and others are not, period. Maybe that's considered closed-minded, but it's how things are. There needs to be a boundary, otherwise you have utter and total chaos.

Elizabeth

P.S. Yes, when someone asks a question, they should expect varying responses. That does not mean they should agree with each and every one.


 And this I say to you: why? Why? Just tell me why, so I can understand. Why?


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