Gotta side with Brad on this one. Can't say I'll let you off the hook as well.
"Freedom is a state of mind. Nothing more and nothingless."
So the slaves were actually free but didn't realize it, all they had to do was think themselves free??? Gosh if only they knew that back then, could'a saved the USA the aggravation of a civil war. Often that which is a state of mind transpires into a physical world, kinda like a realization of thoughts and just because a person is able to con themselves into thinking they see pink elephants doesn't mean they are actually seeing pink elephants and just because someone may not see pink elephants does not mean they don't exist.
"A person who is in prison because of their beliefs is far more free than the person on the outside who obeys everyone and cries themselves to sleep e4ach night."
Can not a person be trapped by their own beliefs?....what about a religious fanatic who gases a subway station? Is he not a slave to a belief system even if he thinks himself free? What about a person who has no inclination to be a leader and wants to follow? Are they not free to be a conformist?
"As humans living in the physical realm of the universe we will never be free of our bodies and the restrictions they place on our time."
Never say never I read an article or saw a show or something like that where some scientist claimed to have some DNA code which might be the anatomy clock for the human body. If we can clone sheep, surely one day it is possible that we can build a human whose cellular activity level remains constant...it would just be a matter of making the cells clone themselves exactly without.....ie. currently our bodies clone cells after year X much like dubbing an original tape then dubbing the second tape into a third then the third into a fourth and so on, the quality constantly deteriorates, but it is feasible to say that the human body, with tinkering, could be a machine that produces exact copies with the quality of the original...well in theory it sounds possible
"But this does not mean we are not free."
But to say that we are not free means that you must know exactly what freedom is and I don't think you or anyone has ever sufficiently defined it. Yes, maybe it is a state of mind but then again, so is happiness and so is sadness but are they just states of mind? And if it is just a state of mind, who can honestly say they control all their thoughts? And if we can not control all our thoughts can we say we are free even in a state of mind type of way? Perhaps freedom is a theory that has yet to be proven?
"But this does not mean we are not free."
It also does not mean we are free as well.
"If you believe you are free then you are if you do not then you are not."
SO the slaves were actually free, they just didn't realize it. I guess when they were hung for being black they were free? Oh I get it, they were free to be black and hung from a rope. Just a state of mind. Now were the slaves free if they refused to do what was asked and be killed for this refusal? Is that really freedom?
"What is holding them in bondage? Hunger? What about Ghandi's hunger strike? How long did he go without food."
You forget why he was doing a hunger strike.....freedom....not only his but his people. Obviously the people he was fighting for were not free, did not have control over their lives and without some control over your life you can not feel free, at least not if you are a conscious being. YOu are also forgetting what causes "states of mind" or thoughts, it is the physical world that must exist before a thought, for without stimuli the brain is nothing more than an interesting paper weight or an odd shaped soccer ball. When someone feels enslaved it is usually not because their brain is just telling them that for the sake of it but because stimuli has had an influence on the brain by saying, your wants, desires, needs, etc. can not be fullfilled because of an outside factor thereby giving one a sense of enslavement/imprisonment/helplessness, etc. THerefore freedom can not be just a state of mind and have nothing to do with the physical world because it is the very existence of the physical world which creates a thought. Existence of the world has created most brains to notice the differences of situations and patterns and came to the conclusion that some are free and some aren't.
"Manson killer. Yes they are in Jail for murder. But you are judging waht the beleive. If you did not judge them then maybe you could see how they could actually be free."
Isn't saying they are free a judgement as well? If you did not judge them then maybe you could actually see how they are not free. If you are looking at the theory of eliminating opinions thereby causing complete freedom then you've already formed a new opinion. Looks like you're using the Buddhism defense here, I'll try and counter with the Cochrane babble on rebute technique . If Manson didn't have a belief then perhaps he could see how he is actually imprisoned. Is anyone free to believe what they want if they are constantly being influenced and no matter how hard we try we can not escape influences for we can not totally escape perceptions?
"A deranged lunatic, what is his bondage, and rember, not being free means that you actually have to preceive it-you r bondage."
If someone kidnaps you then restrains you to a post and you can not escape, and they beat you daily until the day you die, are you free if you can convince yourself you are? The body can not function without the mind and the mind can not function without the body therefore nothing that is human can just be a state of mind for all thoughts are based upon the physical world. There is a truth to the physical world, therefore there is a truth to our thoughts for our thoughts can only be based upon our perceptions. And if we percieve a freedom than physically there must be freedom and the same applies for enslavement.
Perhaps you are seperating freedoms into factions,ie. there is freedom of thought and freedom of action. whereas I'm saying it is impossible to really seperate the two and call it a whole. It is a lie to feel free when you are not and a lie to feel trapped when you are free. Would you be free if you thought you could jump ten feet when in fact you can only jump two? Would you be free if you could jump ten feet and but only jumped two because that's all you thought you could do? What is my point, just trying to illustrate how sometimes our thoughts and actions can be inconsequential to the truth.
Anyways Tony...I'm reaaaallly starting to babble on here, it's getting late so I must be off for now but thanks for provoking me to think so much, I don't think I covered much ground, nor do I think I'm right but rather feel like with every page I read two more are written Take care,
[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-13-2000).]