How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 On 'Atlas Shrugged'
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

On 'Atlas Shrugged'

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


0 posted 02-20-2000 01:28 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I don't have time to do a full review right now but I just wondered if anybody has any ideas on the strength and weaknesses of this book. I know Angel Rand (wherever she is) might have something to contribute as well as kevintaylor.

Quickly, it's too long and repetitive, the love scenes are laughable, and it reads very, very Russian to me (with a tinge of Robert Heinlein). That said, I enjoyed it in all its simplicity and found it just as frustrating for that simplicity.

Question: How is Dagney Taggart justified in shooting the guard at the end of the book if the initiation of force is not allowed?

Complaint: Too many blue eyed, blond haired people running around (Okay, John Galt does have green eyes but all the other good guys seems to have variations of blue and the bad guys' eyes, except for one and that was just the haziness of the pupils, are never described).

Yeah, just trying to start a debate.  

Brad


[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 02-20-2000).]
Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


1 posted 04-11-2000 02:28 AM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Sorry I had missed that one.
As for your Arian references: I think Francisco D'Anconia had dark hair, he is a goodie. Thought that Dagney had dark hair too but I could be wrong. I don't have the book with me right now.
On shooting the guard: I had long discussions with another objectivist friend of mine about just that. I didn't like that part much either and he tried to explain to me that
1, the guard chose death by not moving out of the way even though he knew that the society of leaches had brought about total chaos.
2, Dagney acted in defence of herself and of the man she loved who was imprisoned by the monsters
3, that the shooting was symbolic rather than a recommended act by Rand. The not moving guard was symbolising the decay of a stagnant society inflicted by socialism. Shooting him was shooting your way to freedom of the world sort of thing.
But I still think that that is the weakest point in this all together great book.

The lovescenes were not to my taste either. But again I suppose they were meant to be symbolic of the action that took place in the story rather than what Rand herself saw as the way to do it.
As for it reading Russian and Heinleinesque to you. Well I have never read Heinlein but I have read Dostojevsky and Tolstoy. I don't know what you mean there. Russian literature has so much fatalism in it and that is certainly something not to be found with Rand.
My complaint (if any) was that at times it was a little slow-moving. But over all it is the most thought provoking and life altering book I have ever read.
   Angel

†"I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged                        
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand




[This message has been edited by Angel Rand (edited 04-11-2000).]
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


2 posted 04-11-2000 03:55 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Angel!!!!
Nice to see you back. I read the damn book because of you.  I'll go back and check on some of the facts but I think I'm right. Anyway, I hope you can stay a little bit.

Brad

PS  Heinlein is someone you should start reading (read the early stuff first -- the later stuff can be rough going   )  Does anybody have any ideas for her first? Mine was 'Tunnel in the Sky' but what about 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'?
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


3 posted 04-11-2000 04:45 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Do you happen to remember when you read those, Brad?  

Most of Heinlein's early novels (but not his short stories, strangely) were targeted specifically to the teen market. That certainly doesn't make them bad ('cause they aren't!), but they are fairly light reading. Of those early works, I think "Glory Road" was one of my favorites. Another, one that became the basis for many, many of his later novels (introducing the Lazarus Long character) was "Methusala's Children."

Heinlein's first really adult novel was probably "Stranger in a Strange Land." Many would also argue it remains his best. And it certainly is one very appropriate to a philosophy discussion!  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


4 posted 04-12-2000 10:50 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I read 'Tunnel in the Sky' when I was 10 (Dad liked Heinlein and I wanted to be like the big guy).  I read 'Mistress' much later.  I think 'Glory Road' or 'Stranger' would be a good place to begin although many people also think that "Have Spacesuit  Will Travel" (juvenile) is his best written work.

In an interview, Heinlein said his philosophy made Ayn Rand look like a socialist (nothing wrong with that  ) but the interviewer thought he was joking.

I'll try to get back to the Russian comment later,
Brad
Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


5 posted 04-13-2000 10:51 AM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Will check Heinlein.  
Dagny DID have dark hair btw.
Eagerly awaiting your post on how Russian literature could compare to Rand's writing.
Angel  


†"I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged                        
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand




[This message has been edited by Angel Rand (edited 04-13-2000).]
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


6 posted 04-13-2000 11:02 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Angel:

I agree with you that I don't see the connection between Russian literature and any of Rand's works I have read (limited to "Anthem" and "The Virtue of Selfishness", btw).  I have read Tolstoy's "Death of Ivan Illych" and Dostoyevski's "Notes from the Underground" and neither of them are anything like "Anthem".  While "Anthem" was set in the midst of totalitarian repression that included the repressions of thoughts, the direction of the story was decidedly optimistic.

Brad:

I, too, am interested in your comparison.  All I know of Heinlein, by the way, is of his Scientology philosophy/religion.  I, personally, think it is a little off the deep end but that is only my opinion.  

Later.

Jim
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


7 posted 04-13-2000 02:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Whoa, Jim!



Please don't confuse Robert Heinlein with L. Ron Hubbard...  

(Although, I think a comparison between Hubbard and Rand might be appropriate.)
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


8 posted 04-13-2000 02:50 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Darnit!  Just broke my four months, thirteen days, without-making-a-mistake streak!    Actually, now that you've cleared that up I might have to go out and read some Heinlein.  Interesting point though ... there are certain similarities between Hubbard and Rand ... what do you think, Angel?
Ryan
Member
since 06-10-99
Posts 318
Kansas


9 posted 04-13-2000 04:59 PM       View Profile for Ryan   Email Ryan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ryan

Hmmm, well, I know nothing about Ayn Rand except that "Anthem" is really short and "Fountainhead" is really long.  I do know a little more about Heinlein.  I'm suprised nobody's mentioned "Starship Troopers."  I've never seen the movie (not heard good things about it though), but the book is really good.  Not just military battles.  Lots of societal ideas in there.  Still not sure if I agree, but very thought provoking book.  That was my first.  Then, I read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistriss."  More economic and social ideas that were interesting.  Also, it's sort of a resistance group's manual.  Uhh, also read one by him about people on a spaceship going to another solar system that had an accident and everyone forgot about it and formed their own society and there were two-headed mutants, but I forget the name of that one.  Not as good as his others though.  Yeah, so, me done rambling.

Ryan


 I like too many things and get all confused and hung-up running from one falling star to another till i drop. This is the night, what it does to you. I had nothing to offer anybody except my own confusion.
óJack Kerouac

Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


10 posted 04-13-2000 08:43 PM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

My knowledge of Scientology and Hubbard is very limited and I can therefore not really compare them.
What I do know about it, is that scientology calls itself a church and a science. Churches usually are places where you prostrate yourself to a being of higher enlightenment.
Rand does not require you to be a member of any "cult", also she asks repeatedly to not take her word on anything just cause SHE says so but rather use your own reason and evaluate the facts. Anyone can find the truth simply by applying his or her own nature given reason. Rand's philosophy advocates that you should only use your own reason as guidance.
She doesn't call her philosophy a science. But rather that the search for truth should be undertaken like scientific research or the work of a detective.

I would be interested in where you see parallels with Hubbard. Please keep in mind that I know very little of his theory and therefore I might need a bit of an introduction.

Is Starship Troopers by Heinlein? I have seen the film. The cheesieness of the whole fascist-propaganda was done to perfection. What a great parody.

Angel

 "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand


Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


11 posted 04-16-2000 10:23 PM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Uhm Hello??
Angel here, still eagerly awaiting some response..


 "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand


jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


12 posted 04-16-2000 10:50 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Sorry for taking so long, Angel.  I think the similarities between Hubbard's and Rand's philosophies are only surface similarities.  Both place a rather high value on self-reliance and self-actualization but, beyond that, I would not be willing to stretch the comparison one inch.  

I actually applaud Rand (and her serious disciples) on their stalwart commitment to reason.  In spite of the characterizations I have heard and read, I have yet to meet a selfish Objectivist. Reason, after all, is something worth being shared ... this is something Rand certainly believed.

Later.

Jim
Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


13 posted 04-17-2000 07:19 AM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Hi Jim  
Wouldn't your comment here suggest that you think it is not in someone's best interest to share their knowledge with others? In Rand's case especially since she was convinced that her philosophy would heal society as it is. Definitely in her best self interest! Besides sharing isn't something that is unselfish at all. I love to share! It makes me happy. And I would hate to think someone shared something with me purely out of duty yet got no enjoyment from doing something nice for me. So you see, everybody wins there again.
Angel

 "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand


jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


14 posted 04-17-2000 08:12 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Okay, Angel.  You win.  I agree with you.  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 04-23-2000 09:44 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this one. When I said Russian, I was referring to a certain tone in the novel. It is indeed a huge generalization and I've met Russians who don't follow this pattern personality wise (but they do follow it in terms of speech patterns) nor do I want to say that this attitude is limited to Russians; it's just a certain feel I get from Dostoyevski, Tolstoy, and Rand (but maybe not someone like Gogol).  I would describe this tone as, well, a certain absolutist stridency: THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE sort of idea.

In the novel "Atlas Shrugged" there are several points where some character corrects or admonishes the other who thereupon sees the light but doesn't admit to a change so much as an understanding that he or she has always 'known' this but hadn't verbalized it.  There is no change so much as a truer understanding of the self -- an absolutist sense of identity if you will. In Dosteyevski (and I don't read Russian so may be completely wrong here), you see the same thing happening with people as they change their minds. They begin with a statement and over the course of a conversation or a monologue they gradually change their minds but they don't admit to changing their minds, they argue that this is how they always felt. I think D. is making fun of this characteristic but I think Rand accepts this as fact.

Maybe we should ask Master to come over here and see if he agrees or disagrees.

Brad
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> On 'Atlas Shrugged' Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors