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Passions in Poetry

A Riddle To Start Off

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Robin Goodfellow
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0 posted 02-20-2000 12:26 AM       View Profile for Robin Goodfellow   Email Robin Goodfellow   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Robin Goodfellow

Ok, I'm going to carry this on into something else but first I wanted to ask this riddle to get people in the frame of thought and help grasp the point. The riddle is


What does mortal man have on Earth that God cannot have in all his divinity?
Trevor
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1 posted 02-20-2000 01:14 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Slushy machines? Playboy magazines? Beer? Card games? Big fat T-bone steaks with fried onions and baked potato with sour cream and chives? Midgets that can play the kazoo out their wahzoo? Regis and Kathie Lee? A market place for Vanilla Ice? DVDs? The Duck Billed Plyatapus? Oktober Fest? Computers? The NRA? A copy of the bible? Nike shoes? American Express Cards? Super Highways? Me?        

Actually I haven't a clue what God has or doesn't have if in fact there is a God. Personally, and please don't take offense to this cause I don't know where you are leading this discussion to, I can't fathom anyone knowing the answer to your question unless they've been to heaven or sat and had croissants with the big guy himself/herself/itself. Anyways, I'm very curious to what you have up your sleeve Thanks and take care,
Trevor
Brad
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2 posted 02-20-2000 01:14 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

A sense of challenge? A fear of death?
rich-pa
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3 posted 02-20-2000 03:16 PM       View Profile for rich-pa   Email rich-pa   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rich-pa

sin
Lady Bere
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4 posted 02-20-2000 03:57 PM       View Profile for Lady Bere   Email Lady Bere   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Lady Bere

Puck,

You do have my curiousity with your riddle.  But then when I see the name "Robin Goodfellow" I tend to become a little wary of my answers.

Maybe the answer is the unknown.  Man can not know what may come, but God?
Brent Hotchkin
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5 posted 02-20-2000 10:11 PM       View Profile for Brent Hotchkin   Email Brent Hotchkin   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brent Hotchkin

A physical body. That is why our souls make the journey to earth. For the feeling you get from being in the physical form.

[This message has been edited by Brent Hotchkin (edited 02-20-2000).]
Robin Goodfellow
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6 posted 02-21-2000 01:22 AM       View Profile for Robin Goodfellow   Email Robin Goodfellow   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Robin Goodfellow

Brent, no offense intended but the very thought of that makes my skin crawl. To even imagine that our only reason for being was to be a higher power's taste tester of Life is just Icky for lack of a better word. And gives me the feeling of being highly violated.
poetSeaMaiden
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7 posted 07-15-2009 12:17 PM       View Profile for poetSeaMaiden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for poetSeaMaiden

Goodfellow - -

I think maybe what Brent was trying to say, is not that God is using us as guinea pigs or "testers" but so that WE can know the physical realm and appreciate more when we do pass, the spiritual realm - and how different the two are. Nothing icky about it.  Besides that, God already knows everything - it's something he wants US to know and experience.  - pFF
Essorant
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8 posted 07-16-2009 01:26 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Man on earth has a higher being to look up to if he has God.  But God doesn't have a higher being to look up to if he is the highest being himself.  

Stephanos
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9 posted 07-16-2009 07:32 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Christian Theology says God became a man (The Incarnation in Jesus Christ).  I guess omnipotence can have it all.     Oh, except for sin.  He didn't have that.  But that's because sin is only a twisting or lessening of something good, not a "thing" in itself ... an ontological negative.  But God still took the condemnation of sin upon himself, for our sake.  So in that sense, you could say he had it too.  

Anyway, what's the answer to your riddle?  Or was it just a conversation starter?

Stephen
Essorant
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10 posted 07-19-2009 01:39 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Of course Christ-thanes believe God became man.  But even as a man he is he.  God doesn't have a being or authority beyond himself that is higher than he to look up to.  He must get a sore neck from looking down to us so much.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (07-19-2009 02:26 AM).]

Stephanos
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11 posted 07-19-2009 02:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

But God didn't cease to be God by becoming man. I suppose God has his riddles too Ess.  Trinitarian doctrine is a description of a mystery found in scripture ... That God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  If this is true, the Son knows what it means to look up to the Father.  The Father knows what it means to prepare the way for, and exalt the Son ... etc...  

The initial riddle struck me as frivilous at first.  But now that I think about it, there's something to it.  People have always wondered how God could be "love" if there was no one to love other than his finite creatures.  Christian Theology affirms, not without mystery, that love, submission, relationship, have always been going on.

Stephen
Essorant
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12 posted 07-21-2009 02:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Indeed, but the Holy Threeness is not a multiplication of God himself.  It is just a distinction of different roles that may be played by one and the same overall being.  Don't you agree that God, as the overall being doesn't have a higher authority to look up to, something that man certainly has if man has God?
moonbeam
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13 posted 07-21-2009 03:47 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
Christian Theology affirms, not without mystery,

I kind of smile whenever I read that word "affirm" in connection with Christian Theology and especially when followed immediately by the phrase "not without mystery".  

"Affirm" has such a solid reassuring feel to it, which is unsurprising given its meaning: along the lines of "to assert positively as valid or confirmed".

It's diction like that (coupled with all the razmataz, and ritual paraphernalia) that kept me from any questioning of my C of E upbringing for many years.  

How can something be "affirmed with mystery"?  Wouldn't it be more honest for Anglicans to insert the word "guess" wherever they are tempted to be so forthright?
Mysteria
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14 posted 07-21-2009 10:12 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Answer: A beating heart and therefore no brain and all its complex functions
Stephanos
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15 posted 07-21-2009 10:34 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Have you ever affirmed that you love someone moonbeam?

It is quite possible to be sure of something that is still (in many ways) shrouded in mystery.
moonbeam
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16 posted 07-22-2009 08:38 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

A beating heart is a hunk of meat Mysteria.
quote:
Have you ever affirmed that you love someone moonbeam?

It is quite possible to be sure of something that is still (in many ways) shrouded in mystery.

Love is a feeling.  I accept it's quite possible to affirm that you feel a feeling.  You are affirming what is going on inside you - either the hunk of meat in your chest or your head.

But the affirmation relates not to the actual qualities of the feeling but to the fact of you feeling it.

Christian Theology is (I assume ) much more than just a feeling (or at least my divinity teachers would have had me believe so).  How you can be "certain" of a theory or system while it is still shrouded in mystery I am not sure.
Essorant
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17 posted 07-22-2009 06:07 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What about the theory of evolution?  Isn't there quite a lot of certainty, yet a lot of "mystery" about it too?  
Stephanos
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18 posted 07-22-2009 10:19 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Moonbeam,

Firstly, do you think love is no more than a feeling?

Secondly, there are many things about the Christian faith which are affirmed with certainty.  That doesn't mean that they are known or understood exhaustively.  This shouldn't be hard for you to grasp, since your own beliefs about sundry things follow the same pattern.  Yes, the Christian faith says that God is superlatively different from common phenomenon.  But even considering your own secular perspective, the demand for seamless knowledge seems epistemologically inconsistent ... unless you want to say that you don't believe in certainty at all.  And if you're saying that, we have no debate any longer, since you can't be certain of it.

Tell me Moonbeam, could you name even one thing you are certain of, that has no mystery about it?

Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (07-23-2009 01:10 AM).]

moonbeam
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19 posted 07-23-2009 12:53 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ess

Precisely.  But see below re "certain".

Stephen (please don't broaden this any more my wrists won't stand it - mercy mercy! )

"Firstly, do you think love is no more than a feeling?"

Fraid so Stephen, love is abstract - just a lil ole feeling.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do with the rest of your post.  You seem to be saying that christians are certain but not certain.  This seems like semantics on route to avoidance to me.

Who said I was demanding seamless knowledge?  Certainly not me!  All I'm demanding is that christians affirm positively, and preferably regularly, that they don't have seamless knowledge and they may in fact be wrong about everything important.  That would be a good start.

No, I am certain about one thing, and that is that I am not certain about anything except that one thing.  So I guess all debate is grounded in mere probability, which imv doesn't make it any the less entertaining or valuable.  
Stephanos
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20 posted 07-23-2009 08:28 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Rob, we obviously define "certain" quite differently.  You must mean exhaustive knowledge when you say "certainty", or what else could explain your claimed uncertainty about everything except uncertainty ... and even I, considering your philosophy, don't know why that should be exempt.  Can I ask you how you can be certain of this one thing?  
  
quote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to do with the rest of your post.  You seem to be saying that christians are certain but not certain.  This seems like semantics on route to avoidance to me.


That's exactly what I'm saying ... though not exactly.       Certain about some things, uncertain about others, not having exhaustive knowledge about all questions of "how" and "why", though having enough to not doubt the thing in consideration.  And though the subject matter may be different than, let's say, astrology or a committed relationship, the principles are very similar.  

Christians, like most people who are not Christians, believe things certainly while possessing only partial knowledge of them ... on authority, on trust, on experience.  If God communicates at all, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect some degree of trust and authority would properly come into play. The interesting thing is, is that you can't escape this principle, whatever you believe.  There is mystery about everything.  I've never heard a scientist describe the question "how" comprehensively, much less the question "why".  And yet I've never known a scientist who doubted that gravity is a reality, though perhaps he doubted the sufficiency of models and descriptions.  But Gravity transcends Newton, Einstein, and Heisenberg.

Stephen
 
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