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What are your feelings on being able to have power of your child's genetics?

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since 08-12-99
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25 posted 01-24-2000 01:57 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Hello everyone,

"As far as responsible science, the reason those circumstances you listed have been used "responsibly" is because they were taken as far as they could go. It wasn't because scientists stepped back and said...
"You know, I believe we should stop here, or we might go too far"

One block is the foundation for another, the cure for one thing might mean the cure for another, personally I believe they all co-relate to birth of something else. How many treatments have been discovered and then those techniques been built upon to get to another "state of grace". Without the invention of the wheel there would never have been the car, without the invention of electricity there would never have been the computer, without the invention of the computer there wouldn't have been space travel....etc. and so on.

"Let me give you an example. Plastic surgury. Yeah, it's great for people who have serious facial deformities. But it turned into a marketable product just like everything else.
And so will genetic tampering."

Yes I agree, all great things turn into a marketing scheme. In the past very few have gotten as rich as their predecessors. I keep having to argue against capitalism amoung my piers and friends but none of them seem to see the longterm affect of making everything a dollar sign, marketable and a resource of the highest bidder.

"I say keep searching for other alternative cures."

I'm all for any way that helps people without hurting others, and I believe there is a solution and compromise that is like this, however I don't know if one does or does not exist in genetics. The only other concievable solution I see is within electronics (ie., pacemakers, etc.). If someone comes up with another viable solution without harmful effects (which a lot of the drug induced treatments have) then sign me up.

"People who look fit and are fit have earned it (for the most part) through their own effort. You say if we start making poeple born that way it will help their self images...but I disagree. I think that if it becomes the normal, that it will not make anyone feel good. Because it wasn't earned. They will just look for other flaws within themselves. What good is that?"

Well if you're going to put it so logically and intelligently I have no other path to take but agreement. I never saw it in that light but now I'm prone to agree with you on that. I could try and argue that super-models are born with their looks, perhaps so, but I believe they have to work hard and dilegently to keep it that way. Very good point m'lady, thanks for the lesson.

"Ok, no we are getting into spiritual territory here. It's like this. The evidence of an existing God is all around us everyday of our lives. He is supreme in all things. And honestly, (sorry, this is going to be harsh) but if you doubt the existence of God, then your arguemnt is groundless. We can do nothing without God. Nothing."

Heresay and conjecture your honor   One could argue that the existence of a benevolent supreme being is all around us daily. I could easily create a new god that worked within the parameters of our existence...many cults already do. I have no God, no religion yet I do things daily. I write this without God. Now you can argue that just because I don't believe does not make it so...and I agree, there could be a God or gods, you may be right, but also one could say just because you believe doesn't make it so as well, there may not be a God or gods. In some cultures a fool or heretic was one who didn't believe in Zeus, etc. and was considered a crime not to, punishable by death. And in the opposite fashion, Columbus was considered crazy by many because he thought the earth to be round.

"I disagree with you that one has to exceed the boundries to discover them. One can know he will fall over a cliff if he jumps off of it before he actually does it. You see?"

Actually they saw. I'm guessing that the reason more people didn't jump off a cliff was because they saw something fall off a cliff once and saw what had happened. So the limit was tested and failed and something was learned. If humans did indeed start off as a single tribe then there is a good chance that one of them fell off or witnessed at at one point in time another animal falling off a cliff, and saw the death of that animal. They learned from it and passed it along, the same as early man touched fire and felt the burn and such knowledge was so correct and useful that it coreectly passed on from generation to generation. Or at least that's my take on things, but you've already made me change my mind on an issue so why not again?  


" If enough people are against genetic manipulation or are persuaded to believe that  they believe it is wrong, then it will not happen on a wide scale (black markets may exist however -- but that's a different issue from what most people are imagining here so far -- indeed I'm the only one who seems to be worried about that possibility   )."

Funny you should bring that up again. Read an article in the paper last week about something like 9 people (doctors and nurses) from a former Soviet Union country (sorry I forget which one...also this isn't verbatum but accurate according to the article) who were arrested for buying and stealing transplantable organs to be resold and implanted within wealthy buyers. Can't say I blame an impoverished person, in an impoverished country, for selling an extra kidney for ten years salary to feed and clothe their family...but my god there was a case of someone going in for minor surgery and waking up without a something or other. Makes you wonder how many of their patients died of "natural" causes? "My god doctor, no wonder this patient died, he hasn't got a heart or two kidneys! How he ever lived to be 43 is beyond me."   Whether the majority needs or a small minority, there will always be a supplier for the "needy".

Thanks to both of you for your articulate and insightful responses. Take care,

Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea

26 posted 01-24-2000 05:23 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, Trevor got to the spiritual stuff before I did (boy, he jumps in pretty fast) but I have to disagree with both of you on the plastic surgery debate (yeah, I actually disagree with Trevor on occasion.) Actually, my argument on both is similar so it's not that much of a change.

Concerning plastic surgery: both Saxoness and Trevor argue that it is morally wrong to make  a profit from plastic surgery, that it is good that it can help some (burn victims for example) but not others (Paula Jones? Is that the name of the woman who claimed to be sexually harassed by Clinton?). Both of you have made an arbitrary moral decision as to the value of looks in this society, have determined the dividing line between what is right and what is wrong. Yet, we all know that looks do matter in society, statistically if not individually (statistically, men moreso than women by the way).  You can argue all you want how this is wrong but that doesn't change the fact that it exists.  Why do you blame people for wanting to make a change?  If you argue against plastic surgery, you might as well argue against taking a class in SAT test taking in order to better your scores and increase your chances in the 'real' world. Why not leave the choice to each individual instead of having such decisions decided by Trevor and Saxoness? Trevor, I don't think socialism would solve this particular problem by the way -- except if there were a shortage of heart surgeons as opposed to plastic surgeons perhaps.

I think the same thing holds with the spiritual issue because ultimately these decisions will be decided by people.  I did say before that I don't think DNA and the soul (immutable by definition) are the same thing so I really don't see that as the dilemma.  I have no problems with God's existence as I've said before but the word of God is always told to us in a language and language is a malleable, interpretable thing.  If you don't believe me , read Milton's defense of divorce -- he uses the Bible to show that divorce is okay.  You don't have to believe his argument, of course, but he does do it and that's my point. The word of God may be infallible but it is always spoken to us in a human language and understood/interpreted by humans which are most definitely fallible.  So, as I see it, we're right back to who decides. What should we do? Who should decide?  It's still our decision.  Personally, I just don't think it's that big of a deal. (Then why did you write so much here, Brad?  )

Okay, I'm done,
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27 posted 01-24-2000 01:58 PM       View Profile for Saxoness   Email Saxoness   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Saxoness

Hey guys! I have to go to class right now (yeah I know it happens) but I wanted to say I will be back with a response sometime today! And I wanted to say one more thing to you two gentlemen.
Do you guys wanna come over to my house for a slumber party?     This is so much fun! I LOVE a good debate!

 "Glory remains unaware of my neglected dwelling where alone
I sing my tearful song which has charms only for me."

-Charles Brugnot

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