How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 A Pefect World.
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

A Pefect World.

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Athas
Junior Member
since 12-04-1999
Posts 23
Edinburgh, Scotland


0 posted 12-09-1999 05:37 AM       View Profile for Athas   Email Athas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Athas

Okay I'm not sure If I'm in the correct place for this but I thought I'd share my thoughts with whoever is interested.  This tehory works on the basic assumption that there is a god;  Which is something that I believe.

Provided that there is a god.  Surely that god would be perfect by definition.  How can something which creates everything be bad.  Even if it did something which we consider bad it would be its sole choice because it created everything therfore It wouldn't be bad.

So God is perfect and God created the world.  This was the 'perfect' decision to make.  The only way to be perfect is to emmulate God.  However we would all agree (probably) that the world isn't perfect.  Therfore perfection creates inperfection.  

Conclusion:
A Perfect world cannot exist!


 -----------------
In the begining there was nothing which exploded
Terry Prattchet (I think)
Athas
Junior Member
since 12-04-1999
Posts 23
Edinburgh, Scotland


1 posted 12-09-1999 10:31 AM       View Profile for Athas   Email Athas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Athas

Okay this is strange replying to my own topic.  However I thought I'd mention one thing that occured to me afterwards.  (However I'm not sure that it is worth it)

Maby as people we can't decide what a perfect world is maby we are in a perfect world just we can't see it for that due to the limitations of our perceptions.  Oh I don't know I would be glad of any comments.
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


2 posted 12-09-1999 11:00 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Athas:

I am not exactly sure what you are asking for here.  Are you wanting us to address the problem of evil/imperfection in creation if God is all good and all powerful or are you looking for something else?  Please clarify.

Jim

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


3 posted 12-10-1999 05:05 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, besides the fact that your begging the question whether God is perfect or not (even by our own standards -- and I thought the title was great! I hope you intended it that way.)   You're forgetting that a perfect world would be static, no place to go, no place to change, no place to grow; it seems like a pretty boring place to be. On the other hand, Heaven is best described as one with God so the whole perfection thing kind of disappears. You, as you know it, would be very much changed and would experience change and the sameness at the same time.  God is outside time, don't forget.

Brad
Athas
Junior Member
since 12-04-1999
Posts 23
Edinburgh, Scotland


4 posted 12-10-1999 08:19 AM       View Profile for Athas   Email Athas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Athas

JBOULDER

"I am not exactly sure what you are asking for here.  Are you wanting us to address the problem of evil/imperfection in creation if God is all good and all powerful or are you looking for something else?  Please clarify."

I was just wondering if people thought that a perfect world was possible.  I was also wondering if anybody sees a perfect world as being something which might happen in the future.  I think their may be good reasions for evil and imperfection in the world but I think that most of my opinions have to do with my religion (Anglican).  Personally I see evil and imperfection as a way to test people.

However I value other peoples Ideas and Comments.  Thank you.  (I hope I cleared things up a little for you.)


BRAD.
"You're forgetting that a perfect world would be static, no place to go, no place to change, no place to grow; it seems like a pretty boring place to be. "  

I wonder Brad if the world was perfect then how could it be boring surely bordom is a form of imperfection and surely this would be excluded from a perfect world.  This brings be back to my origional conclusion that a perfect world cannot exist.  May I also ask why a perfect world would have to be static and in a sence dead?  Surely these are not a necessary part of perfection.  Maby things would happen but they would be the right thing to happen  

I agree that heaven would be best decribed at one with God.  I still think it is right to question and wonder however about things life meaning and perfection.  

Thank you for your comments on the title.  I appreciate that.

Wes




 -----------------
In the begining there was nothing which exploded
Terry Prattchet (I think)
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


5 posted 12-10-1999 09:31 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Thanks for the clarification, Wes.  I do not think a Utopia is a humanly possible achievement.  

BRAD:

"Heaven is best described as one with God so the whole perfection thing kind of disappears. You, as you know it, would be very much changed and would experience change and the sameness at the same time.  God is outside time, don't forget."

And here I thought I was the resident theologian!    You never cease to amaze me, my man!  I agree with this statement.

I too like the title.  Nice touch.  
Aegis
Junior Member
since 12-04-1999
Posts 28


6 posted 12-10-1999 01:26 PM       View Profile for Aegis   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aegis

Keep in mind that God is the only unchangeable reality: whereever you are in life, or death, he will be there. Also I remember one thing I read in the Bible, in Isaiah 65:21-25....

They will build houses and dwell in them;
  they will plant vineyards and eat their
    fruit.
No longer will they build houses and
    others live in them,
  or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
  so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
  the works of their hands.
They will not toil in vain
  or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
  they and their descendants with them.
Before they call I will answer;
  while they are still speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
  and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
  but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
  on all my holy mountain,"
                            says the Lord.

I'm not a theologist, but I liked this discussion so I decided to get involved. Human beings have always longed for a utopia, but humanly, it isn't possible.  What I found when reading this passage was that there's no killing or slaughter ... "the wolf and the lamb will feed together" - might be weird seeing a wolf eat fruit.  But I think that was how it had been in Eden.  So there's no killing. A sign of perfection.
People's lives will be enlonged, they will grow their own fruit and grow off their own fruit... in other words, we're self-dependent completely.  And he says that people will not toil in vain -- that alters reality...  they will actually enjoy it, find some rewards everyday instead of frustration.  The message: God's the only unalterable reality.  What we find boring now might not be anymore, when a perfect world is established. There's another earlier thought:

Isaiah 65:17-19)
Behold, I will create
  new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
  nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
  in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
  and its people a joy.
I will rejoice over Jerusalem
  and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
  will be heard in it no more.

Verse 18 (But be glad and rejoice forever...) leaves a message that people will be glad forever.  I do not think that boredom will be possible.  In fact, it will become impossible! Ever heard the expression, "With God, anything is possible." Well, using that quote, I can say that boredom will no longer exist.

In a perfect world as the Bible says, nobody remembers anything of the former world. I believe in it, and my instincts tell me that a perfect world would, in the end, have to end up being God-given.

And how one can enjoy innocence without a boredom, and enjoy perfection.....  I wrote a poem one time, called Eden, and wrote from what I thought could be Adam's perspective of the perfect being... that means Eve.
.............
Her face was very spirited, and fearless,
like the sun and stars her eyes were,
and we knew no sin, no evil;
we were good, yet we knew it not,
for divine miracle made us innocent and ageless.
.............

The idea of perfection is appealing to me so I wrote it the way I could imagine it. So, it takes a miracle. That would be God. I agree that the whole perfection thing would sort of disappear.  But I don't see a perfect world as necessarily static. End of my rant.
Athas
Junior Member
since 12-04-1999
Posts 23
Edinburgh, Scotland


7 posted 12-10-1999 05:14 PM       View Profile for Athas   Email Athas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Athas

I meant a utopia not really in the world as it is now but after the world has traditionally 'ended'.

AEGIS.
Thank you for your comments.  I like your thoughts and your passages.  I hope that there really is a world like that to come.  However I'm not sure If I like the Idea of a world where everything here is forgotten though as stated in your second passage.

Thank you for your comments.


Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


8 posted 12-10-1999 10:54 PM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Perfection is a concept born from a flawed mind, the human mind. Perfection is only an opinion and everything is perfect the way it is already though it may not feel or seem that way, ie. If it is rainy heavily then one might say we are having bad weather when in actuality the weather isn't bad nor good it just is the weather.
I'm not saying we shouldn't try and change the world for what we consider the better but it won't make the world any more or less perfect, just different and may create the illusion of obtaining a "perfection" or it may seem we are "imperfect". Does perfection include the lives of everything else on this world? What about the animals? Wouldn't a perfect world include them? Everyone's opinion differs so much that it would be impossible to fullfill the needs of a "perfect world". I also agree with Brad, a perfect world would have to remain a constant or a changing entity that automatically fixes itself. I try to look at everything being as is and not a reflection of my opinion though I am opinionated. Our opinions have nothing to do with the truth or what is in existence unless directly dealing with our opinions.ie. Your words have hurt my feelings, that would be true if what a person said hurt your feelings so your opinions are the truth. There are truths, there are opinions of truths and there are truths about opinions and never at the Dairy Queen shall they meet.
We may not be "perfect" to ourselves or live in a perfect society but things will change, they always do, and we need our opinions to help govern the change so it may be in a direction that is more beneficial to us. Perhaps just striving for "goodness" is perfection enough. I don't know if what I said came out all that understandable, I hope ya get the "jist" of the points I was trying to express.

As for the God part, if God feels what He is doing is perfect and He has no one to answer to and be accountable for His actions, then in a sense why wouldn't He think He is perfect? And why wouldn't those who worship Him think the same? If we are what we are then "perfection" is found not only in our triumphs but in our faults as well.

ANyways enough idle banter from me, take care and thanks for making me think,
Trevor
Athas
Junior Member
since 12-04-1999
Posts 23
Edinburgh, Scotland


9 posted 12-12-1999 11:08 AM       View Profile for Athas   Email Athas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Athas

Thank you all for your comments.

TREVOR

Yes in my opinion perfection would encompass all life on earth.  After all this time I might as well state that I think perfection is an impossible goal.  However like you I think that we should always strive to be perfect or at least good.  In my opinion trying to better yourself does lead to definate self improvement.  Also I think if people try to better themselves that it may improve the world in general.

However this mightn't be the case.  I know that in the past people have considered the idea of breeding the "master race" as such and that only led to torture hate and death.  Still I think moderate improvments might be possible in society;  I certainly hope so.

Wes


 -----------------
In the begining there was nothing which exploded
Terry Prattchet (I think)
Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


10 posted 12-15-1999 02:18 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Hello everyone,

Myslinky:

How dare you question the WIzard of Oz!!!! Don't pull back the green curtain.... I'm just horsing around...you have a very valid question.

Death is a function of nature, as is life, and in order to change and maintain a certain equilibrium things must both die and live. For all humans to never die would mean complete disaster for planet earth and all things on it. The population would be greater than the earth could sustain. Besides would you really want to live forever, there are days where you are probably pretty bored, I know I have those days, now imagine an eternity of them.

I guess the point I'm stumbling to is that there really isn't a perfect or imperfect, there are only is and isn't. There are either murders or there aren't. There is either death or life. Now I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't try and change the world to better suit our needs (such as our need not to get killed) but we should hardly beg for the universe to change in order to cater to human opinions. Tell me one thing that you think is perfect and I'll tell you why it is imperfect. Tell me one thing that you think is imperfect and I'll tell you why it is perfect. Honestly I don't believe there is one thing that you could tell me of that is either perfect or imperfect that I could not produce a somewhat legitimate opposite opinion of.

To say that something is perfect or imperfect is to say you understand the whole cause and effect of actions. That is to say that you know where the influence of everything starts and stops and the co-relation it has with everything. What we percieve to be negative things often cause positive things to happen and vice versa.

You have to look at something without opinions to see the non-existence of "perfection". Just because you don't like something hardly means it isn't perfect and just because you like something hardly means it's not imperfect.  You see what I'm getting at, perfection and imperfection are concepts, opinions and nothing more. There is a universal balance at work, encompassing all, and is beyond human opinion and if there is a perfection, that is where it lies and not with someone moaning that their taxes are too high or they accidently cut their hand off with a bandsaw.

For instance, cancer kills people, we think this an imperfection??? To say that cancer is an imperfection is to say the thing that created cancer is imperfect and the thing that created it is imperfect and so on until you come to the base of all creation and then you must say it is imperfect as well. I know I'm not being very helpful in my explaination but it is more of a thing you must discover for yourself then be described. It's not indescribable it's just very difficult to describe. The answer lies within realizing what opinions are and their relevancy to fact.

I'm very interested in knowing what "perfection" and "imperfection" is by your definition, and be specific, every minor detail must go into perfection otherwise how does one know it is perfect. Also it must encompass everything. And also remember if you state that you don't know what perfect or imperfection is then by default you are also stating that if things were perfect or imperfect you would be unable to realize it was for you know not what either is.

Anyways thanks for the thought provoking question, I hope I've somewhat clarified my position on the theory of "perfection"... although I doubt it, for if these mumbled words read anything like they wrote then I think anyone other than myself will have trouble interpreting it  
Thanks and take care,
Trevor
Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


11 posted 12-15-1999 05:13 PM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Hello myslinky...it walks down stairs, alone or in pairs and makes a clinkity sound....:

"I guess having a cycle of life and death repeating itself for all man kind is the perfect outcome for the conditions we live in.  But you have to admit that death is an imperfection of our bodies."

First of all I admit to nothing....pardon me warden? Yes I'm almost done on the internet   No I swear I wasn't even near that bank   To say that death is an imperfection of our bodies is to say that humans were meant to live forever and we know this not to be true because not a single one has done so. To say that death is an imperfection of our bodies is to say that you fully understand humanity's role within existence thereby stating that you know why you are here and therefore be privy to the knowledge that humans, or at least yourself, should live forever. We live as long as we do for a reason, otherwise we would live longer....what those reasons are, I don't know.
Anyways, sorry for muddying up your mind   Take care,
Trevor
Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


12 posted 12-16-1999 12:59 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Oh boy...this one's getting tedious....


Ya caught me, no, I can't prove if I am right or wrong (but then again you can't either )...I honestly don't have any answers, only an opinon of what one might be.
Staying young forever would be one of the worst fates I could think of. I don't want to live forever, especially not earthbound....maybe if I could fly around space then I might consider living till I'm 500 yrs old or so but otherwise give me the 60-80 years medicine has promised me and then call it the end of a very long day  
Why is it that you don't want to grow old or don't ever want to die?
Take care,
Trevor
Athas
Junior Member
since 12-04-1999
Posts 23
Edinburgh, Scotland


13 posted 12-25-1999 06:26 PM       View Profile for Athas   Email Athas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Athas

MYSLINKEY

Think how bad the world would be if people lived forever if nobody died there would be such over population and crowding that the planet would surely die and I don't meant that as an exageration just the human species are definatly too heavy on the planets resources.  I know getting old is no picnic but however its possible to grow old with dignity in my opinion.

Thanks you and Trevor for takeing the time to talk here even if I haven't.

Wes

 -----------------
In the begining there was nothing which exploded
Terry Prattchet
patchoulipumpkin
Member
since 01-01-2000
Posts 203
Bermuda


14 posted 01-04-2000 02:15 AM       View Profile for patchoulipumpkin   Email patchoulipumpkin   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for patchoulipumpkin

I don't know, its a good question about perfection.  But to my way of thinking, and i don't want to get into semantics about God, in that everybody has their own definition, God isn't perfect, God is as imperfect as the rest of us.  God is everything, everywhere, at everytime.  I don't believe in God, from a biblical standpoint, because to me, our defintion of god, doesn't work because we attribute Him/Her/It with too many human qualities that, to my mind, only confuses us further.  As for the perfect world, one has to ask what perfect is?  What is your definiton of perfect?  My definition of perfection is in the everyday of life, whether its reading a book, writing, laughing, just being who you are is about as perfect as it gets.  And to want more than that, is not foolish, but is almost unnecesary, because there really isn't more than that.  All that is perfect is you, and yet we continually resist this idea, we continually think that God exists above us with his own magical spell of perfection, when really all that God is to me, is a word that can only describe the unknowable.  In essence, to my opinion, it is our insistence on "seeking" perfection, of "believing" God is somebody "higher" than us who has the answers, that keeps us from perfection.  I don't consider myself an atheist, although from a particular point of view some would, in that i don't believe in the popular conception of God as living on Mount High with a point of view.  God is blind, He can't see anything, which makes him see everything, He is the ultimate void, and the ultimate whole. He's nothing and everything, and that is perfect, just like you and me.  
Bojopy
Member
since 01-03-2000
Posts 405


15 posted 01-06-2000 12:53 AM       View Profile for Bojopy   Email Bojopy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bojopy

OK I'm not sure this is going to make sense but here it goes.

Maybe the world is perfect.  But we are not on it!! kinda funny but maybe its out there.  It could be another planet, it could be in the ocean, it could be in a room, it could be anywhere YOU want it to be.  All you have to do is use your mind to find it.  All Im saying is we must create our own perfect world with what GOD gave us and the mind is the best tool for that..........Bojopy

P.S I wrote a poem about this when I first came into Passions called "A New God" if interested.  I think it has to with what Isiah said .

 



[This message has been edited by Bojopy (edited 01-06-2000).]
Saxoness
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 07-18-99
Posts 1176
Texas


16 posted 01-18-2000 04:32 AM       View Profile for Saxoness   Email Saxoness   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Saxoness

There is a God, and he is perfect...and us as humans can't even fully grasp what that means.
Once upon a time the world was perfect...until the sinning of Adam and Eve. They sort of ruined it for the rest of us. Now there is no chance of a perfect world, but heaven is indeed a perfect place, and I for one can't wait to go there!


 "Glory remains unaware of my neglected dwelling where alone
I sing my tearful song which has charms only for me."
                                      
                                 -Charles Brugnot



[This message has been edited by Saxoness (edited 01-18-2000).]
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> A Pefect World. Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors