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jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


0 posted 11-18-1999 11:02 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Would you be willing to die for an ideal you hold (whether it be religious, political, or whatever)? Why or why not?

What are your thoughts?

------------------
Jim

"If I rest, I rust." -Martin Luther

Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


1 posted 11-18-1999 03:25 PM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

This is an interesting question.
Last night I watched the Thin Red Line and I felt how frightened these soldiers must have been. I don't think I could fight in a war like that. I might be a coward or maybe I hold life too dearly, who knows. I like to believe of myself that I would work for the Underground or the Resistance in case of another WW2 situation. Yet looking toward my own original country Romania, can I say with certainty that I would have risked death by opposing that monster Ceaucescu had I lived under his rule? Would I have the strength of character to withstand torture? I doubt it. But nothing and no force in this world can convince me that a wrong against one person can ever be a right even if it seems to serve another. So I guess even though I am no soldier and no hero in the face of that kind of opposition, "my flesh is weak but my soul is strong".
Angel

------------------
"I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


2 posted 11-18-1999 06:40 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

My immediate answer to the question would have to be 'no'. My mind is constantly changing and I can't think of anything at the moment that I can say without some level of doubt rising to the surface. A feeling always comes to me that I have to study more or that in any logical argument, I'm missing some key point.

That said, I can see myself getting killed over some argument because I just can't keep my mouth shut. I would fight for my family (but would never try to die); I would fight for friends in a war or otherwise although I prefer to try to reason my way out of things. I prefer to stop fights than to start them. Besides, I'd probably lose anyway.

I really don't believe in ideals as such -- some pure moment or thought that is beyond or above me. I think they are working constructs that we use to contrast, discuss, and, with a little luck, try to make our lives a little more satisfying.

Brad
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


3 posted 11-19-1999 09:15 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Thanks for your thoughts. My question was motivated by some of the comments I read in some of the other threads. Angel Rand spoke extensively at one point at the principals upon which our country was founded. The Founding Fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence put their lives at grave risk for the sake of liberty. Many of us are familiar with the story of Nathan Hale, a Continental Lieutenant spy who was captured by the British and, reportedly, uttered "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country." John Paul Jones (I think) "Give me liberty or give me death." Martin Luther's words that kicked off the Reformation, "On these truths I stand, I cannot recant. My conscience is captured by the Word of God." We all remember (or in my case, remember reading about) those who died and were willing to die who were part of the Civil Rights Movement.

Whether you agree with their ideology or not, a willingness of men and women to pay the ultimate price, more often or not, was the engine that drove changes in history (some positive, others not).

My father served aboard a destroyer in the South Pacific during WWII, survived a typhoon that killed 800 other sailors, and a near-miss Kamakaze attack. My grandfather was an Army medic during the Normandy invasion (a horrifying place ... see "Saving Private Ryan").

What motivated these people to be willing to die for something larger than themselves? Was it conviction or fanaticism?

Would I be willing to die for an ideal? I don't know. I don't think anyone really does. I, like Brad, would certainly fight (and risk death) for my family. But altruism always seems to be as "split-second" of a decision as cowardice during a crisis situation.

Good thoughts, guys. Thanks.

------------------
Jim

"If I rest, I rust." -Martin Luther

Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


4 posted 11-19-1999 10:03 AM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

Excellent points here. I would ahve to say that I would hope I would fight for what I believe. I am a opinionated person and do stand up for what I believe but then torture etc has never been part of my life. (the type you get during a hostile take over, war time). I know that I would die for my family if it was necessary but like Brad I try to avoid conflict as much as possible.

My family lived in Holland during the second world war. My Grandfather hid people from the resistance in his barn. He stood up for what he believed was right at a time when he could have disappeared for doing so. I have been taught to do what you can, the best way that you can for yourself and others.

As for Brad's thread on Socialism/Capitalism etc. It is above my head. I know here in Canada things are changing. We have a provincial government in place that is cutting away some of the access spending our social programs do. We needed this badly and our porvince is in better shape finacially then it has been in many, many years.

The problem I have with the Democratic system is the attention or special treatment some groups get. If you are vocal enough and extreme enough you get what you scream for.

eg. A few years ago a very vocal feminist group screamed for legalization of nudity in public. We now have laws that state you may walk down a public street topless. When this law was first passed we had near fatal accidents happening because women exercised this right. (Men driving hit other cars because they were watching the view. My almost did that to us one day) Since the issue has quieted, you see NO ONE doing this. Why is that? It is because people want attention and will go to great lengths to get it.

Laws have been passed in this country lately allowing same sex partners to have spousal benifits. This I think is rediculous. (I have nothing against a persons personal sexual perference, do what you like but do not throw it in my face nor make me pay for your perference). This being the case, why can't spinster brothers and sisters who share a home, collect the same benifits? I think we are trying to please too many people and the majority is now becoming the minority.

My question is this. How do we, as a society, fight bigotry and violence when we continually widen the gap with decisions good for few and bad for the many? Canada is an imigant society and we must consider this when making policy but when is enough, enough? If we continue to allow people to intergrate their cultural structures into ours, then we are no longer a definate entity.

I am trying to get this across without sounding bigoted (because I am not). What I am trying to say is, when my parents arrived to this country they we allowed to practice thier believes and cultural traditions, as are all. We have the freedom to be who we are, but if the country you imigrated from was so great, why did you leave? Let's all celebrate what Canada is and respect the laws of this country! There is a reason people imigrated here, let's try to keep that reason alive, instead of trying to change this country into what we had before.


Gosh I hope I made my point? I know..rambled on to a new subject...should start a new thread. Will do that later...lol.
Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


5 posted 11-20-1999 08:44 PM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Good question.
There are things I would fight for and die unintentionally for (say like stopping Hitler).... but I can't see how tooo many problems could be solved by my intentional death. If I had the choice between my family dying and me I would definetly step up to the "plate" and sacrafice myself completely for them....if I knew the mass of starving people could be fed by my death then I would sacrafice myself, but if I knew there might be a way to fix things without dying then of course I'd choose to live....I'd go to war for certain things, ideals I value but I wouldn't go to die...the exact opposite in fact. I wouldn't avoid conflict but rather try to choose my battles wisely.

MARILYN:
I too am from Ontario, Canada so I feel the need to coment on some of what you said.

"As for Brad's thread on Socialism/Capitalism etc. It is above my head. I know here in Canada things are changing. We have a provincial government in place that is cutting away some of the access spending our social programs do. We needed this badly and our porvince is in better shape finacially then it has been in many, many years."

The problem with social programs isn't that they exist or cost money, the problem lies with who pays for it. The bill is strictly laid on the shoulders of the middle class, the wealthy and large corporations don't contribute even close to what the middle class does especially if you want to put it in gross percentage. That is why I believe social programs don't work and "seem" to cost so much....cause the middle class foots the bill for everyone, the rich and the poor.

"The problem I have with the Democratic system is the attention or special treatment some groups get. If you are vocal enough and extreme enough you get what you scream for."

I agree, they're almost as bad as big business lobbiest who "contibute" to political funds to get their way.

"A few years ago a very vocal feminist group screamed for legalization of nudity in public. We now have laws that state you may walk down a public street topless. When this law was first passed we had near fatal accidents happening because women exercised this right. (Men driving hit other cars because they were watching the view. My almost did that to us one day)."

Actually they were fighting for the equal right to not have to wear a shirt (not full public nudity) like their equal conterpart, us evil men And just because a few people can't focus doesn't mean their shouldn't be an equal law for both men and women.....personally I find the change in view refreshing .

"Since the issue has quieted, you see NO ONE doing this. Why is that? It is because people want attention and will go to great lengths to get it."

You may be right, or is it because they just wanted the right to have a choice thereby enhancing their sense of freedom?

"Laws have been passed in this country lately allowing same sex partners to have spousal benifits. This I think is rediculous. (I have nothing against a persons personal sexual perference, do what you like but do not throw it in my face nor make me pay for your perference)."

The nerve of them....they should be grateful to pay for our preferences....perhaps if we let them get married, like opposite sex couples that are in love, there wouldn't be such a fuss....or is that too icky....kind of funny that it's okay for opposite sex couples to get married and have oral and anal sex but it's not okay for same sex couples to do this....when does someone have the right to own their body and mind? Marriage between consenting non-related (don't want nine eyed kids) adults of any sex should be a right for every adult. Tell me, if a person was a natural hermaphrodite, who should they be allowed to marry or should they be allowed to marry at all?

"This being the case, why can't spinster brothers and sisters who share a home, collect the same benifits? I think we are trying to please too many people and the majority is now becoming the minority."

Do you think love between a brother and sister or friends is the same as the love between a couple that participates in the act of "making love"? Should a homosexual couple have to pay for you to be in love and you not have to pay for them?????

How do we as a society, benefit from oppressing the right of a homosexual couple to be married? It's a lot different then brothers and sisters.(I mean the real reason behind brother and sister and close relatives not being allowed to marry is because genetically they are too closely related and the result of their reproduction is usually poor and at least with homosexuals you don't have to worry about this). And if these people are the minority then the financial cost of insuring such rights would be sooo minimal.

"My question is this. How do we, as a society, fight bigotry and violence when we continually widen the gap with decisions good for few and bad for the many? Canada is an imigant society and we must consider this when making policy but when is enough, enough? If we continue to allow people to intergrate their cultural structures into ours, then we are no longer a definate entity."

Well, maybe the many are bad and the good are few. I do agree that Canada's current immigration policies aren't great but I don't think it has anything to do with cultural structures. We don't criminal check those applying for status very well nor do we kick them out if they commit felonies, we let the rich in when the economy is good and the poor in when the economy is bad (I am all for social programs but in a capitalist country you can't ask the poor to pay the way for the poor, this would do more harm than good) and we aren't strict enough with our sponsership programs.
Why should you care what kind of "culture" they bring over as long as you have the right to access these cultures?, for example, why do you see a problem if a chinese restuarant opens up if you are allowed to enter? Why should you care if the muslims open a mosk if you are allowed to be a muslim? The only problem I'd have with any other culture being in Canada is if I did not have the right to participate in their culture or they did not have a right to mine....I do however have a problem with some of the laws concerning "racial equality" or "gender equality", such as giving someone of ANY ethnic or religious, etc. background preference over another in a private or public field....But I will say it should be everyone's right to celebrate life and who they believe created it as long as it does not physically impeded anyone from participating or cause physical damage.

"I am trying to get this across without sounding bigoted (because I am not). What I am trying to say is, when my parents arrived to this country they we allowed to practice thier believes and cultural traditions, as are all. We have the freedom to be who we are, but if the country you imigrated from was so great, why did you leave? Let's all celebrate what Canada is and respect the laws of this country! There is a reason people imigrated here, let's try to keep that reason alive, instead of trying to change this country into what we had before."

Jedi, you made not sense in this paragraph. Actually it sounds like you are a bigot but not a racist. It sounds like you like other races but only if they practise a way of life that is very similar to yours. Do you think the Dutch culture was even close to the original Canadian culture? Please tell me what Canadian the culture is or was?
Laws of a country change for a reason, they change as the makeup of a country changes and the needs of a country changes (and they are not always for the better) and unless a magic law comes into effect, they will always be changing. People come to Canada because they think they will be able to provide better for themselves and their family and live without the fear of persecution of beliefs. I personally love the fact that I don't have to travel the whole world to discover other cultures and I feel that having to put up with a few bad apples is a price worth paying for the privilage of being multi-cultural. No other country in the world offers such protection of cultural diversity with the option of becoming one in a melting pot. Live and let live. I've heard your statements many times before from other "non-bigotted" people and the lines that usually follow is that all immigrants are either lazy and/or are criminals and become nothing but a burden to Canadian society..... hardships and crime work hand in hand and has no racial boundaries... and most people in the world are hardworking, law biding citizens....at least if we'd give them a chance to be.
Anyways I'm now the rambling one and if I continue I will fall completely off course, I hope I haven't offended you by giving my opinion. Thanks and take care,
Trevor
Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


6 posted 11-20-1999 09:48 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

I have spoken badly again I think. I did not mean I was against Canada being multi-cultural. I think that we are great because we are. The problem I have is when someone joins the Canadian Police department or other such organization and demands that their cultural traditions be incoporated into that structure. Eg. I am not sure which culture it is?? Are allowed to wear their turbans instead of the uniform of the department they are applying to. Their is another or mabe the same faith that carry symbolic knives at their waist. There is a law against carrying consealed weapons in this country. There are more examples of what I am speaking but can not think clearly at the moment.

As for the right to be topless. When was it breaching my right to be topless in public if I never wanted that right in the first place? I truely believe people should fight for things of importance not things that are meaningless. If they wanted this right so badly why are they not excersing it? People become numb to the screaming of people after a while (eg. the boy who cried wolf). When something important and serious does come up what then? These people will scream and scream and what will happen? Do you not think that the general public are tired of this?

As for the gay issue...lol..we will agree to disagree.

I know that I have more thoughts on this but I can not get them out. I am tired and my mind has gone amuck. I am not even sure if I brought these points across at all?

Good night.
Tina TT
Junior Member
since 11-01-1999
Posts 45
Victoria, Australia


7 posted 11-22-1999 03:49 AM       View Profile for Tina TT   Email Tina TT   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tina TT's Home Page   View IP for Tina TT

I found this quote from Catcher in the Rye- "An immature man longs to die nobly for a cause, while a mature man lives humbly for one" (something like that). I think I agree with it, though it depends on what cause is.

DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 06-22-99
Posts 2442


10 posted 11-22-1999 05:58 AM       View Profile for DreamEvil   Email DreamEvil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit DreamEvil's Home Page   View IP for DreamEvil

Being titled after the motto of my original home state, I simply had to reply.

There are a multitude of things I am willing to die for. Correction, there are a few people and a few things I am willing to die for. My love, those I hold in my heart, even a few familiar enemies I would gladly take a bullet for. The few principles I would die over will remain my own.

Dying for something is easy. Far harder is finding something to live for.

Simply my two cents worth.

------------------
Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~.
DreamEvilŠ
-------------------------------------------------------
"Either kill me or take me as I am,
because I'll be damned if I ever change..."

Count Donatien Alphonse Francois de Sade
(Marquis de Sade)


jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


11 posted 11-22-1999 11:48 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Tina: A professor of mine once said "Avoid the man with a cause. He will be the first to kill you." All too often true.

DreamEvil: Very true. But at times it is easier to live under oppression to than be willing to die for sake of liberty. Just a thought.

------------------
Jim

"If I rest, I rust." -Martin Luther

DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 06-22-99
Posts 2442


12 posted 11-22-1999 06:31 PM       View Profile for DreamEvil   Email DreamEvil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit DreamEvil's Home Page   View IP for DreamEvil

Easier, or are they too fearful of that oppression to act?

------------------
Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~.
DreamEvilŠ
-------------------------------------------------------
"Either kill me or take me as I am,
because I'll be damned if I ever change..."

Count Donatien Alphonse Francois de Sade
(Marquis de Sade)


Ixtab
Member
since 06-23-99
Posts 105
MEXICAlpan de las tunas


13 posted 11-23-1999 02:04 AM       View Profile for Ixtab   Email Ixtab   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ixtab

Ideals can be beautifull and mortal. They always uphold principles that to the bearer of the ideals seems to defend life, or rightousenss of some sort. Hitler stood for his people although obviously in the wrongest way possible. But like Socrates said "no one does evil knowingly" . To die for an ideal, i don´t think i would do it. Pure ideals are unatainable. Humanity is too diverse and changing to see an ideal work like it was thought to. In the practical world theoreticall schemes fall apart, and even what seems a just system (e.g. capitalism), creates many evils, (theme for another rant).

yet (i don't remember who said it but it's true): He who fights for life is the first to die.

Ixtab
Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


14 posted 11-23-1999 08:58 PM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Hello to all,

MARILYN:
"I have spoken badly again I think."

No you spoke your mind which is a good thing. YOu like all other people have the right to think how you want and say what ya please, so don't beat yourself up....there's plenty of other people to do that for you

"The problem I have is when someone joins the Canadian Police department or other such organization and demands that their cultural traditions be incoporated into that structure. Eg. I am not sure which culture it is?? Are allowed to wear their turbans instead of the uniform of the department they are applying to."

Yes one could argue that a uniform is a uniform and tradition is tradition but I don't see how a turban will impede or help in a persons policing abilities...I personally have no problem with an officer wearing a turban as long as I can recognize that he/she is an officer....especially if I'm getting mugged To be honest I couldn't care if they all wanted to wear pyjamas and blow on kazoos as long as they are qualified for the job

"Their is another or mabe the same faith that carry symbolic knives at their waist. There is a law against carrying consealed weapons in this country. There are more examples of what I am speaking but can not think clearly at the moment."

I believe the knives that they carry in public are made of plastic, not sure. I think it's the Sihks (sp?) who do this....if it's not plastic then I think they shouldn't be allowed to carry them.

"As for the right to be topless. When was it breaching my right to be topless in public if I never wanted that right in the first place? I truely believe people should fight for things of importance not things that are meaningless. If they wanted this right so badly why are they not excersing it? People become numb to the screaming of people after a while (eg. the boy who cried wolf). When something important and serious does come up what then? These people will scream and scream and what will happen? Do you not think that the general public are tired of this?"

Yeah I agree it was a silly battle but some people just wanted the right to excercise their rights...did that make sense. It was I guess a matter of principle and I wish the women of Ontario would excercise their topless rights more often I too believe that people should pick their battles more carefully.

Anyways, take care,
Trevor
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