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Passions in Poetry

Rambling moments on love

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Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


0 posted 11-06-1999 03:37 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Love is, more or less, a topic that comes on this board on a fairly regular basis. Who am I if I don't keep up the tradition .

So:

Is love a point or a process?

Is love something you feel or is it something that happens between two people? Do you see the difference?

I don't believe in the heart/mind dichotomy. So, is love both? Neither?

What was I talking about?
Brad (bot)
Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


1 posted 11-06-1999 03:55 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

I would like your perspective Brad. You are married....children? You tell me what you think love is? I really have no idea at this point. I am not in love and the one time I thought I was, ended miserablly. I will share my view but first I would like to know where you stand personally on this issue?
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


2 posted 11-07-1999 07:14 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yes, I'm married. No children yet. I make no claims for myself just trying to see things in different ways rather than better ways. If you see love as process and not as a feeling or as a point, I was hoping to get across the idea that love is constant work, that it doesn't just happen but that there must be a conscious desire to make it work. The problem is not that you love or don't love so much as that it takes two people to love, to make it work. That's the hard part, not the feeling (which while never completely, to some extent you can control).

Really, I was trying to point out that love as a process is not something that happens, not something you can control, yet something that happens and something you can control.

It's both at the same time.

I sometimes feel that people either are too passive (Where is love) or too methodical (I will get married now) and don't realize that it's both.

Also, I was trying to work out some ideas on how the word love is a word that should be dropped in most poetry. Concentrate on specific feelings and situations, on moments, and I think other words can be used more productively.

Just some thoughts,
Brad
Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


3 posted 11-08-1999 11:11 AM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

To me to love is to value. The person you love is the embodiment of your values. Or at the very least he or she has so much of what you value that those characteristics, which you like less, become immaterial in the face of the whole.
Then why, you might ask, do so many ppl enter such disastrous relationships (including me)? I cannot speak for other ppl but from what I have learned from my past mistakes I can say this much: When I met my "mistake" I had no value for myself. I didn't like myself; I was unfulfilled in my ambitions cause I didn't know them or what was of true value to me. The man I got involved with treated me badly cause I let him. Why did I let him? Cause I felt I deserve no better. Love is respect for yourself and your values.
from Angel


------------------
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand
Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


4 posted 11-11-1999 03:33 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

I believe love to be the end result of a process. It is the sum of certain, experiences, actions and thoughts. What these are experiences, actions and thoughts are would probably fill pages and pages so I won't go into to much detail.
I don't believe in love at first sight. I don't believe that true love is found in appearances though you may love the way someone looks without loving them. I don't believe that love is found solely in action though you may love the actions of someone. I don't believe that love is found solely in thought for there are reasons, such as a need for companionship, that often presents the illusion of love and makes us think we are in love.

Brad:
I don't believe that love is work but rather maintaining a healthy relationship is. Sometimes we do things that we don't want to to satisfy our loved ones which in turn satisfies us in knowing we have made someone we love happy. Perhaps part of your "love" equation is that you need someone to challenge you in a relationship. You need to feel that "worked" to have satisfaction in a relationship. Lets face it, you do love a challenge (and nothing wrong with that) and maybe this is why you feel that love is work, because for you to love you need to work. Perhaps that is where the phrase "opposites attract" comes from, because there is that conflict that forces us to work and constantly revise who we are. I dunno....you know me....I'm a member of the fence sitting commitee as well and have to rely on mere speculation as my form of communication
I do think though that love, in a healthy and real sense, is a truly great and diverse thing. There that's it, that's all.
See y'all later,
Trevor
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


5 posted 11-13-1999 11:41 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Trevor,
It's just scary how well you know me. I'm often seen the connection between my best relationships and the amount of personal effort I had to put in to keep them going. Somehow, it always seems that if I have to do something out of my normal routine to keep it going (my wife lived on an island off the coast of Korean and I visited her two times a month for a year and a half), I find myself feeling more for that person. Or, is it that I already feel I want to do something special, to make an effort for that person and that must manifest itself in some way? I don't know.

But enough of my idiosyncrasies. Does 'work' mean something you don't want to do? I mean it in a very productive sense, not in a numbing, monotonous sense. For me, work, in this context, simply means making an effort to change the routine, to think about new directions -- to keep the romance if you will. I enjoy doing this. And my wife agrees that it's something we both need to do. It's so easy to get 'comfortable' and before you know it things have changed and not necessarily in a positive direction.

Angel Rand,
Love as a value, for me, still retains a sort of static feel. This may not be what you meant (and I know 'value' is a very complex concept for you) and as I try to understand your ideas on value, I can't help but wonder if there is a dynamicism built into your personal belief system. Nevertheless, love or relationship (not sure of the distinction Trevor is trying to make yet) does involve a sort of constant discovery, a learning experience that influences you just as you influence. It is this the constant process that invigorates me (although I may have to start using a different word because I say 'process' so often) . Some bad relationships occur because of a lack of communication and/or because people have already made up their mind and have no wish to discuss things anymore. I think what I'm trying to get across is that you need two people who are willing to change and grow together. Love without exchange is not love.

does that make any sense,
Brad
Trevor
Senior Member
since 08-12-99
Posts 744
Canada


6 posted 11-14-1999 04:49 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Brad you have once again forced me into thought and revision of thought....UGGGG!....when does this thinking thing stop???.....if one were to know everything, would one then stop thinking and just be and react? Anyways here's my expansion and revision on the subject of love.

After being brutally forced to think I have to say work is not always something I detest. Work for me would be better defined as a challange either liked or disliked or impartial to.....so that basically covers everything for me Perhaps that being applied to a reason for loving sometimes (or part of the equation), one could say that sometimes one needs to feel a sense of challenge and "unperfection" to have "perfection" (I use that word lightly) in a love based relationship. An effort given and results shown, like a life long love affair with a science project (and I don't mean that in a cold and sterile way).
Perhaps everything needs constant work, everything does change and if one wants change in a favourable direction then they should put forth an effort to direct(but that's what I interpreted your influence comment as meaning). I agree with you about communication and growing together to be essential in a relationship, especially the communication part. Although couples may not grow in the same way, they may still except and understand each others perspectives without becoming them and maintain a healthy relationship in doing so.
I do disagree with what you said about love without exchange is not love. I believe it is not a good relationship, especially if you are talking about spouses. Now I'm interpreting what you said as, a relationship where only one party loves and the other does not, can not be considered love. To me that's like saying a person can not care for another person if that person does not care for them as well. It may not be emotionally healthy to love someone who does not love back but I still believe it can be love or lop-sided love.

To be honest I don't know or remember what my train of thought was with the distinction of working on love and working on a relationship??? I'm sitting here trying to figure out what the hell I meant but I can't recall. Sorry....can't figure it out. ....Note to self: "Stop working on model airplanes in a small, cramped, poorly ventilated room. The glue fumes may be toxic."

Angel:
I think you made some very valid points with your comments especially concerning "bad" relationships. I think values do have something to do with the "love equation" (probably a very important role in fact) for something you do not "value" you are impartial to or dislike and vice versa. Just thought I'd tell you I liked what you wrote.


I won't claim to know what love is nor the cause or about the diverse effects (both physically and mentally...(BTW, which came first, the thought/feeling/emotion or the chemical reaction? Do our thoughts cause chemical reactions or do our chemical reactions cause thoughts, or both at different times? ie. does a scent cause our chemicals to react and thereby causing thoughts on the reaction or do we think of the scent thereby triggering a chemical reaction?...sorry got sidetracked again)...so I was saying about love....oh damn....forgot what I was going to say....Note to self: "Stop drinking aftershave lotion. May cause short term memory loss."

My two pesos worth,
Trevor
Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


7 posted 11-15-1999 12:19 PM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Brad, for me something is of value if I with my somewhat ( ) objective mind deem it as good. That is to say a man holds value to me who has certain fundamental principles by which he lives and which I can admire and understand and deem as good. Personally it is of value to me if he thinks deeply and feels passionately about the important things in life. I once told a friend that I was looking for a hero. I didn't mean to say I wanted a decorated war hero. I mean a hero who will stand up for what he believes in and rather die than betray himself or his fundamental principles. A hero to me is someone who is true to him or herself.
Value also means honour. A man who values himself, i.e. his mind and action must value the choices he makes. He therefore treats the person he chooses to live with and whom he professes to love, with respect and honour. To do otherwise would mean to betray himself and his own honour.
This also applies to women of course. I said that when I chose to be with my "mistake" I had no value for myself. I meant by that that I had no respect for my own choices, my opinions and myself as a person. So if I cannot love myself how could I expect to find or even (subconsciously) desire someone who does. The best example of that would be a woman who treats a man badly for treating her right. There are many of these females out there I am sad to say. (This does reflect somewhat on the man's value for himself too to be a willing subject to such treatment though). So in other words. that which I dislike I will treat with disdain and have other ppl treat with disdain as it seems fit. It is no different if that thing I dislike is myself. You can only respect something and someone if you have respect for yourself and your own opinions. Therefore it is also rather impossible to love someone if you have no love for yourself. How fake would this be: "I love you and all that you stand for. But I hate myself and all that I stand for." That would mean that all those things I profess to love in the other person are not my own values, not what I recognise as good.
Hope that made it a bit clearer
Angel
RainbowGirl
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since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


8 posted 11-16-1999 06:49 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

My one and only response on this subject..:-)

Love means caring for another, not always putting them before yourselves because as human beings, we can be selfish...but generally we are there because we want to support, listen and becuase the feeling deep inside is one of wanting to protect and nurture: to try and instill a security of love....no matter what you do, I will love you...but having said that there are limitations, and those are only known to each of us but by and large, love is love, a feeling that surpasses every other feeling, it even overrides pain you jst want to keep on hugging and making things better for the people you love...

It's simplified, I know...but you'd never want to watch my heart as I typed this, because it just grew and expanded with every word and I'm frustrated because my love can't be given a definition...but if I had to give one, this is as close as it gets...

Laughter and Tears

as the Sun withdrew his rays from the garden, and the moon threw cushioned beams upon the flowers, I sat under the trees pondering upon the phenomena of the atmosphere, looking through the branches at the strewn stars which glittered like chips of silver upon a blue carpet; and I could hear from a distance the agitated murmur of the rivulet singing its way briskly into the valley. When the birds took shelter among the boughs, and the flowers folded their petals, and tremendous silence descended, I heard a rustle of feet though the grass. I took heed and saw a young couple approaching my arbour. The say under a tree where I could see them without being seen. After he looked about in every direction, I heard the young man saying, "Sit by me, my beloved, and listen to my heart; smile, for your happiness is a symbol of our future; be merry, for the sparkling days rejoice with us. "My soul is warning me of the doubt in your heart, for doubt in love is a sin. "Soon you will be the owner of this vast land, lighted by this beautiful moon; soon you will be the mistress of my palace, and all the servants and maids will obey your commands. "Smile, my beloved, like the gold smiles from my father's coffers. "My heart refuses to deny you its secret. Twelve months of comfort and travel await us; for a year we will spend my father's gold at the blue lakes of Switzerland, and viewing the edifices of Italy and Egypt, and resting under the Holy Cedars of Lebanon; you will meet the princesses who will envy you for your jewels and clothes. "All these things I will do for you; will you be satisfied?" In a little while I saw them walking and stepping on flowers as the rich step upon the hearts of the poor. As they disappeared from my sight, I commenced to make comparison between love and money, and to analyse their position in the heart. Money! The source of insincere love; the spring of false light and fortune; the well of poisoned water; the desperation of old age! I was still wandering in the vast desert of contemplation when a forlorn and spectre-like couple passed by me and sat on the grass; a young man and a young woman who had left their farming shacks in the nearby fields for this cool and solitary place. After a few moments of complete silence, I heard the following words uttered with sighs from weather-bitten lips, "Shed not tears, my beloved; love that opens our eyes and enslaves our hearts can give us the blessing of patience. Be consoled in our delay our delay, for we have taken an oath and entered Love's shrine; for our love will ever grow in adversity; for it is in Love's name that we are suffering the obstacles of poverty and the sharpness of misery and the emptiness of separation. I shall attack these hardships until I triumph and place in your hands a strength that will help over all things to complete the journey of life. "Love - which is God - will consider our sighs and tears as incense burned at His altar and He will reward us with fortitude. Good-bye, my beloved; I must leave before the heartening moon vanishes." A pure voice, combined of the consuming flame of love, and the hopeless bitterness of longing and the resolved sweetness of patience, said, "Good-bye, my beloved." They separated, and the elegy to their union was smothered by the wails of my crying heart. I looked upon slumbering Nature, and with deep reflection discovered the reality of a vast and infinite thing -- something no power could demand, influence acquire, nor riches purchase. Nor could it be effaced by the tears of time or deadened by sorrow; a thing which cannot be discovered by the blue lakes of Switzerland or the beautiful edifices of Italy. It is something that gathers strength with patience, grows despite obstacles, warms in winter, flourishes in spring, casts a breeze in summer, and bears fruit in autumn --

I found Love and it HURTS!



------------------
You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give.
Marilyn
Member Elite
since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
Ontario, Canada


9 posted 11-16-1999 08:29 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

I am back...

Do I think love is work? Initially no...but a good relationship definately needs to be worked at to remain healthy. There are too many people in our society that view love strangely. An older gentleman requested some of my time. (older as in 40's and I am in my 30's) I talked with him for a while and found out that he was married. He told me that the relationship was over. He still loved his wife but was not "in love" with her. I questioned him on this. he told me that he wantewd to have fun and enjoy life and that she was boring. I am sorry! cop out!! He was looking for a way to let the years and children etc go so that he can be wild and free. He didn't want to work on the relationship that he had. he wanted that rush (chemical thing) that happens when you meet someone new.

I know what love is. It is caring and compassionate. It is doing what is right for the person that you are with. It is a thought, it is little things and big things. It is being comfortable with who they are and who you are. It is sharing the parts of you that you don't want anyone else to see. Love is so many things, I haven't the words to cover them all. The most important thing that love is, is respect. ( I think this because of my history)

If you want to know what love is to me, I can only explain it this way.

There is a man in mt life that I love deep in my soul. He lives very far away from me and has his own life, seperate from mine. I care what happens in his life. We keep in touch and will for as long as I breath. That he is happy is my only wish, even if that means I am not in his life the way I wish to be. I would give anything I had for his well being. I would do anything I could for his comfort. He asks nothing of me because he feels the same for me that I do of him. We know eachothers hardships and pain. We know eachothers joys and triumphs. We share of ourselves that which no one else has seen. He is my comfort and I, his. He is my strength and I, his. He is my solice and I, his.

The attraction was there from the onset of our relationship but the love grew with time and respect. Sharing and openess, caring and compassion. We have many things in common and enjoy mental stimulation. We are soul mates (I know Brad...lol...cliche). He is the only person that has seen my soul bared and has reveled in what he saw. There are only 3 people that I love more then this man. They are my children.

I do not know if any of this makes any sense or if it explains any of the reasons I feel the way that I do. I hope it gives you a bit of insight into me.
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


10 posted 11-18-1999 10:10 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Question 1: Is love a point or process?:

I believe it can be both. I am married and have two children. Love for my wife developed over time. I may have realized I was in love with her at a certain time, but I also realized that I could "look over my shoulder" at the road that led to my realization.

With the birth of my children, however, there was no "process". My love for them came in a rush and I know I loved them the first moment I set eyes on them.

Question 2: Is [it] something you feel or ... something that happens between two people?

I'm not sure the either/or question fits here. Being in love and feeling the presense of that love are, I think, distinct. The absense of the feeling, for a time, does not necessarily mean that love is absent. The feeling, then, I believe is a by-product of love. WHAT love is, I couldn't even begin to speculate. To try to put the love I felt for my sons at their birth to words is a hefty enough task without even considering the substance of that love. Did I confuse you?

I don't believe in the heart/mind dichotomy either (those who do would be trichotomists, right?). I see simply see feelings as being emotional expressions of those things that simply are (or things we simply "think" are).

------------------
Jim

"If I rest, I rust." -Martin Luther

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


11 posted 11-20-1999 07:46 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Care, lust, infatuation, desire, maternal instinct, paternal instinct (there is one, you know), power relations, power plays, gratitude, need, common points, chemical dependency on another person and a host of other words can probably describe what the word means. I wonder if the word itself describes so many things right now that, as poets, we should avoid using the words at all.

I was wondering if we might make a distinction between the love that developes between two people over time in a relationship, the bonding, support, and understanding (perhaps best symbolized by fifty year anniversaries where the couple still hold hands?) and everything else? By process, I mean the development of love with everything else, bad and good -- love does hurt at times, RG -- and yet those that mutually stay with a commitment seem to have a sense of peace and confidence. Such a situation has to be mutual and it has to take time.

Geez, am I falling into the Idealist trap?

Brad
 
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